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Suspect SS AAA Suspect Test #5: Noivern

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Isaiah

Isaiah

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UM/OM Leader
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:Noivern:WHY (Suspect Reasoning):
Noivern is easily one of the most iconic threats in the Almost Any Ability, running its [in]famous Aerilate Boomburst set in every generation of the metagame since gen 6. More specifically, its not-so-high special attack stat of 97, it capitalizes on the sky-high 140 base power of Boomburst in conjunction with the 1.2x Aerilate boost to threaten a powerful STAB-boosted attack that most things can't comfortably switch into. In fact, the general rule with Specs Aerilate Boomburst from Noivern is that it either has a favorable roll to OHKO or cleanly OHKOs more or less any Pokemon that isn't invested in HP and/or special defense. Noivern's base 123 speed tier is noteworthy as well: None of the viable unboosted metagame that outspeeds it can reliably switch in, and it outspeeds offensive Pokemon with speed tiers from base 90 to base 120.

Both in the builder and in play, not very many other Pokemon if any have as large an impact on the metagame as Noivern does. Virtually every team is required to carry a Pokemon that not just resists Boomburst, but is capable of actually tanking multiple on the switch if need be. This includes sets like Blissey/Chansey, Regenvest Silvally-Electric, Regenerator Jirachi, Regenerator Nihilego, and Regenerator Diancie. Other bulky special walls like Corviknight and Heatran exist, but often opt for physically defensive sets in the former's case and specially defensive sets in the case of the latter, which are more consistent versus a wider variety of matchups. In practice, the combination of Boomburst + U-turn means that Noivern can constantly pressure opposing teams with the threat of its powerful STAB while also wearing down non-Regenerator switchins with a pivoting move, making it a nuisance to deal with in most matchups.

Considering that there do seem to be viable Pokemon capable of answering Noivern, it's easy to miss what makes it so difficult to deal with. Realistically, some of the Pokemon that are tailored specifically to counter Noivern can have a lot of trouble performing adequately against other potent special attackers. Silvally-Electric, touted as one of the best Noivern counters in the game, has trouble versus (and can easily lose to) other special attackers like Heatran, Blacephalon, and Gengar, making its versatility as a special check very lacking outside of that particular matchup. Particularly passive switchins such as Jirachi and Blissey/Chansey become pivot fodder for Noivern, so even though they can tank hits easily, they can often end up stuck in VoltTurn cycles or even crippled by coverage that Noivern carries such as Super Fang, Toxic, or Switcheroo.

In essence, in order to reliably switch into Noivern you need a very specially bulky resist. Specially bulky non resists (Chansey, Blissey, AV mons) and non specially bulky resists face a 2HKO after minimal chip damage. This lack of adequate switchins constricts teambuilding immensely, and it's due to the amount of restrictions that Noivern places on teambuilding in conjunction with the sheer amount of power that Aerilate Boomburst offers that the council deems a suspect appropriate at this time.

How (Suspect Details):
During a Suspect test, each player must climb the ladder until they've acquired the GXE necessary to participate in the voting. Primarily, everyone that participates needs to make an alt account following these guidelines:

  • Every game must be played on the official Pokemon Showdown! site and on a new account (creation date no earlier than today, May 2) with "NAAA [Nick]"--for example, I could create one called "NAAA Boomburst" to ladder with.
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 25 games, and you must have a minimum GXE of 75.
  • Noivern will be allowed on the ladder during the suspect.
  • The suspect test will go for two weeks and end on Sunday, May 16th (11:59 pm CST).
  • When posting proof of meeting reqs, feel free to use this thread as a means to disseminate topical opinions regarding whether or not Noivern should be banned. (Optional)
  • It is mandatory to provide proof of ownership of the alt account as well. (Post a picture of your reqs with your smogon name featured)
With that all of that being said, it's time to break the ice on this suspect! As usual, the actual voting will take place in the Blind Voting Forum, so posting anything other than proof of reqs and discussion isn't necessary.

Tagging Kris for implementation just in case
 
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Lost to tinted genesect flinching my flamethrower silvally. Fun times. Take this as my petition to ban genesect.

As for the boomer, I'm honestly split. I'm still going to be voting ban (most likely), but I don't think the case is as clear cut as it may seem. My view on it is as follows. Most of what I'm talking about refers to SpecsVern, unless I specifically mention a different set.

1) The threat of Noivern; aka Noivern on paper

This is Noivern as described in Think's OP - basically, Noivern as every AAA builder has to prep for when constructing a team. This Noivern is always full HP (IE never takes rocks damage!), always makes progress by clicking/having the right move to cripple the counter it's playing against and always gets in safely. I think the actual gameplay scenarios are less ideal, but that does not make Noivern less banworthy. The main issue with Noivern arises in builder; only if you neglect to properly counter it (or the opponent supports it masterfully with lures/cripplers) does Noivern take over the game.
For example, Nihilego is probably the hardest counter to Noivern there is. Not even Switcheroo is a win for Noivern, since Black Sludge substantially cripples it and probably turns the exchange to Nihi's favor. Everything else can get crippled to a certain extent. Elecvally doesn't mind Switcheroo that much, but it does mind Toxic which is a niche slot on Vern. Steelvally/AV Jirachi doesn't see much use but is weak to Flamethrower and everything else is really passive so gets wrecked by Switcheroo. These are the constraints that someone has to keep in mind when building to account for Noivern. But (IMO) Noivern also puts contraints on the person building a team around it.

2) Noivern in practice

While his speed tier is undeniably great, it's not unrivaled. Importantly, it is outspeed by 4 key threats that it either can't afford to stay in on, or doesnt revenge after a turn of setup. The first 3 are Weavile, Koko and Barraskewda (fish is a problem because it can either Ice Fang OHKO, Throat Chop cripple or just Flip for 30-40 percent instantly taking away all of Noivern's defensive utility). Talonflame is a bit different, as +0 Tflame loses to full HP Noivern, but that's not a scenario you will ever encounter, as Tflame will either revenge an in range Noivern or setup on a Corviknight or something similar and threaten to sweep. What this means in essence is that Noivern teams need to be adequately prepared for all of these in order to not let Noivern picking up kills give the opposing too much momentum.

Another constraint is the Rocks weakness. Part of Noivern's strength is the defensive utility that a full hp Noivern provides in preventing a large portion of priority abusers from cleaning up. It resists all Triage moves barring Draining Kiss, Grassy Glide as well as some more niche moves like Mach/Vwave and Aqua Jet. However, alot of these moves KO Noivern after a round or two of Stealth Rock damage. This means that in order to preserve Noivern's defensive utility you need to keep rocks off, which if you wanna fully commit to, requires 2 slots (Magic Bouncer and Water Immune fogger/Regen fogger that can prevent Swampert from getting momentum while chipping your hazard controller).

The third constraint is his absolutely abysmal matchup vs a (shift geared up) Genesect. Yes, I know Genesect is outsped by Noivern, but that's not a scenario you will ever face unless you have momentum on your side, which is a scenario that already benefits you. Genesect is only a threat when it gets the SG off, but it doesn't struggle with that nearly as much as some think (mainly because of the relative difficulty of guessing the set, meaning it tends to force switches). I'm p sure all Genesects KO Noivern at +1, either with a boosted Iron Head or Ice Beam. This is another prevalent threat that Noivern needs team support to handle.

It's been my experience that adequately addressing these constraints is extremely hard, if not downright impossible. I either end up with an abysmal matchup vs Weavile/Tflame or vs Genesect, more often the latter as I tend to try slotting Noivern on Mew+Fini balance which gets wrecked by Genesect. For example, take my latest attempt at building around Noivern (this is also the team that got 6-0d by Genesect at which point I stopped using it and laddered with Pex + Triage Lele instead) : :noivern: :tapu fini: :mew: :garchomp: :silvally: :corviknight:
This team just isn't good. Supporting Noivern (to an extent that I'm satisfied with) requires so many slots that I ended up with a generic fat team that gets owned by anything that doesn't get checked offensively by ChompVern, so Gene and certain Fairies. WA Corv is supposed to blank Swampert btw.

So yeah, this is me saying I can't build a Noivern team that satisfies me and that my approach at it is definitely not the right one, but most other Noivern teams I've seen also have certain flaws (mainly losing the hazard war or having a bad MU vs opposing Vern/Gene/Tflame/Koko/Weav) so I don't think this is unique to me. Maybe I'm setting the bar too high for what constitutes a good Noivern team tho.

TLDR: Im split because building a good Noivern team seems insanely hard to me and my non Noivern teams perform much better, still voting BAN though cause its hugely warping in builder. But Genesect is warping as well imo.
 
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S/o Gmansour20 for being the nicest guy i've ever met

Hi! I’m gonna give my thoughts on Noivern: Noivern is a really good Pokemon! It hits really hard and it's also able to click U-turn on his checks to keep momentum. We can add to this a pretty good defensive type that is useful to revenge kill some triage users. Overall Noivern is strong, really strong. It puts a lot of pressure on the opponent, which can be really annoying. However, Noivern also has weaknesses: it is weak to Rocks and it really needs a choice specs (a Choice Scarf in order to lure in revenge killers to the Specs set is a possibility, but the set will be revealed after clicking just one Boomburst) and another thing: Noivern only has 1 set, so it is quite predictable. I think I will vote ban because overall, I believe it pressures game plans excessively.

On Genesect: I find Genesect way more problematic: a really strong Pokemon with 2 particularly dangerous sets: Tinted and SFLO. There is the main problem: to counter the former, one needs a solid physical wall, whereas a good Regenvest is needed to answer the latter. So, when one sees a Genesect, which Pokemon should one send in? This is very hard to know at first sight, and if the wrong choice is made, Genesect can generally exploit the situation to set up and win on the spot. Besides, it can also run Aerilate, Galvanize, Scarf Regen, Magic Guard... Genesect is really unpredictable and yeah, too powerful right now I guess.


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PandaDoux said:
Confirming as NAAA Diplomate for this Genesect Suspect
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Indercover frr t'es co h24 viens jouer now pour que j'ai ma soirée de libre
Ryuji-Sempai ptdr ça change rien au fait que je vais te défoncer tes morts
Bekaray Continue à faire le diplomate
KJLX won contre un clown sans prendre une once de plaisir
Click to expand...

It might just be me, but your screenshot isn't loading/uploaded correctly, so I don't see your proof of reqs

Edit: It's fixed now
 
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First time ever getting reqs for anything. Thanks for ladder throwing me the same 3 teams 4/5 times, made it very easy to build for.

So...Noivern. As you can tell from my alt's name, I am not fond of the bat. Being able to spam a 252 BP move that has 0 drawbacks, even coming from Noivern's average special attack, is quite stupid and it has JUST enough options to hit what it wants. AV users like SIlvally-Electric and Lanturn get Switcherooed, Steel types that don't have Flash Fire get Flamethrower, and everything else just gets pivoted on. This has lead to not only Noivern being constraining when team building, but being able to get past many of its checks with the proper support. It's clear to me that, despite claims of being linear and predictable, it excels in that one spot so much that it demands at least 1.5 answers on your team.

However, Noivern is not the only issue in the meta. I think the meta as a whole is very troublesome due to being so very top heavy. For example, just the A+ rank on the AAA VR currently holds 17 Pokemon. For comparison, this is bigger than all of the entire A tiers of every other OM with a perma ladder on Showdown (except for NFE and Camomons). Of course this could mean the VR is outdated, but that means there are simply so many mons to think about when building. This usually isn't an issue, but the reason why this is now is because all of these Pokemon have arguably the same level of viability. Weavile, for example, is a mon that absolutely mandates an answer on every team in order to not have to sack something to Band every time it comes in. Genesect is somehow the dumbest thing in a tier where Aerilate Noivern exists, as its ability to simply ignore its checks via Tinted Lens or flinch past them with Serene Grace is something that, again, mandates 1-2 answers so you don't fold to it. Scarf Archeops absolutely manhandles offense while being able to cripple more defensive builds with a quick Switcheroo. And these are just a few mons that constrain team building. Bisharp, Tapu Bulu, Alakazam, Gengar, and more all need an answer (usually a dedicated one on defensive teams) in the teambuilder, and combined, the constrain these mons put on teambuilding leads to samey-same uncreative builds (next time I see a Corviknight+Garchomp+Weavile+Swampert+Noivern counter+filler team I will simply stop laddering) in order to adequately answer all of these Pokemon.

Noivern is not the ultimate cause of this constriction. While it is one of the main problems, it is only the most obvious one: I believe Weavile, Genesect, Gengar, and Archeops all constrain teambuilding to an extent that is possibly unhealthy. But I do believe that banning Noivern would be a net good for the meta and put it on a solid track for the future.

Shoutouts to the following stuff I found when laddering:
-Steel Roller + Psychic Surge Metagross
-Desolate Land Venusaur
-Electrify + Lightning Rod Boltund (twice)
-Triage Sceptile
-Scizor Rain w/ Dhelmise and Regenerator Excadrill
-No Guard Regice
-Tinted Lens Conkeldurr
-Grassy Surge + Simple Beam Sirfetch'd
-RegenVest Blastoise

btw here's the team I used.
 
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first time getting reqs lets gooo

Anyways, I'm definitely voting ban for noivern. Its special attack might not be the best, but does that even matter when you're firing off a 252 base power move? Besides, noivern can patch up that weak special attack with specs. Almost anything that doesn't both invest in special defense AND resist boomburst gets 2HKOd. Its speed definitely doesn't help the situation as it lets noivern effectively force out many frail pokemon. Not to mention noivern gets access to switcheroo which lets it effectively cripple the few pokemon that can wall it. It can also pivot out of them with u-turn. However, Noivern's impact on the metagame is more in the teambuilder than in the battle. Noivern forces you to use Pokemon like silvally-electric/rock which struggle with other common special attackers like alakazam and heatran. You could try cheesing it with soundproof, but in most cases your defensive pokemon need abilities that increase their effectiveness in more situations such as dauntless shield or unaware.

Anyways, thanks for listening to my TED-Talk. Here's the team I used.
(soundproof blissey because I was out of regenerator slots for silvally. I should note that I was using chople berry on incineroar at first to surprise alakazam and non-hypnosis gengar)
 
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