Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet Violet LC Speculation Discussion

[Merritt]

If you've managed to miss it, over the last few days a massive portion of Scarlet and Violet has been leaked. Since we now have reliable information about returning and new Pokemon in Scarlet and Violet, we can begin informed speculation about what the new metagame will look like. Note that there is some information (mechanics details, potential movepool updates at release, exact availability of Pokemon) that we don't have yet, and likely won't until release. Keep in mind that there is some misinformation floating around out there as well.

This thread is to discuss competitive implications for SV LC. Do not bring up anything related to the plot of the upcoming games. This thread will have untagged spoilers. Please remain respectful of other people posting in the thread!

In the hide tags below is most of the relevant information for LC.

Pastebin with all Pokemon stats/abilities/moves

https://pastebin.com/6cYuSv92 part 1
https://pastebin.com/WNWS2dUD part 2

Name, stats and abilities for all new LC mons

Sprigatito-0 - 40/61/54/45/45/65 (Total: 310) - Grass/Grass - Overgrow/Overgrow/Protean
Fuecoco-0 - 67/45/59/63/40/36 (Total: 310) - Fire/Fire - Blaze/Blaze/Unaware
Quaxly-0 - 55/65/45/50/45/50 (Total: 310) - Water/Water - Torrent/Torrent/Moxie
Lechonk-0 - 54/45/40/35/45/35 (Total: 254) - Normal/Normal - Aroma Veil/Gluttony/Thick Fat
Tarountula-0 - 35/41/45/29/40/20 (Total: 210) - Bug/Bug - Insomnia/Insomnia/Stakeout
Nymble-0 - 33/46/40/21/25/45 (Total: 210) - Bug/Bug - Swarm/Swarm/Tinted Lens
Rellor-0 - 41/50/60/31/58/30 (Total: 270) - Bug/Bug - Compound Eyes/Compound Eyes/Shed Skin
Greavard-0 - 50/61/60/30/55/34 (Total: 290) - Ghost/Ghost - Pickup/Pickup/Fluffy
Flittle-0 - 30/35/30/55/30/75 (Total: 255) - Psychic/Psychic - Anticipation/Frisk/Speed Boost
Wiglett-0 - 10/55/25/35/25/95 (Total: 245) - Water/Water - Gooey/Rattled/Sand Veil
Finizen-0 - 70/45/40/45/40/75 (Total: 315) - Water/Water - Water Veil/Water Veil/Water Veil
Smoliv-0 - 41/35/45/58/51/30 (Total: 260) - Grass/Normal - Early Bird/Early Bird/Harvest
Capsakid-0 - 50/62/40/62/40/50 (Total: 304) - Grass/Grass - Chlorophyll/Insomnia/Klutz
Tadbulb-0 - 61/31/41/59/35/45 (Total: 272) - Electric/Electric - Own Tempo/Static/Damp
Varoom-0 - 45/70/63/30/45/47 (Total: 300) - Steel/Poison - Overcoat/Overcoat/Slow Start
Tandemaus-0 - 50/50/45/40/45/75 (Total: 305) - Normal/Normal - Run Away/Pickup/Own Tempo
Cetoddle-0 - 108/68/45/30/40/43 (Total: 334) - Ice/Ice - Thick Fat/Snow Cloak/Sheer Force
Frigibax-0 - 65/75/45/35/45/55 (Total: 320) - Dragon/Ice - Thermal Exchange/Thermal Exchange/Ice Body
Pawmi-0 - 45/50/20/40/25/60 (Total: 240) - Electric/Electric - Static/Natural Cure/Iron Fist
Wattrel-0 - 40/40/35/55/40/70 (Total: 280) - Electric/Flying - Wind Power/Volt Absorb/Competitive
Nacli-0 - 55/55/75/35/35/25 (Total: 280) - Rock/Rock - Purifying Salt/Sturdy/Clear Body
Glimmet-0 - 48/35/42/105/60/60 (Total: 350) - Rock/Poison - Toxic Debris/Toxic Debris/Corrosion
Shroodle-0 - 40/65/35/40/35/75 (Total: 290) - Poison/Normal - Unburden/Pickpocket/Prankster
Fidough-0 - 37/55/70/30/55/65 (Total: 312) - Fairy/Fairy - Own Tempo/Own Tempo/Klutz
Maschiff-0 - 60/78/60/40/51/51 (Total: 340) - Dark/Dark - Intimidate/Run Away/Stakeout
Bramblin-0 - 40/65/30/45/35/60 (Total: 275) - Grass/Ghost - Wind Rider/Wind Rider/Infiltrator
Gimmighoul-0 - 45/30/70/75/70/10 (Total: 300) - Ghost/Ghost - Rattled/Rattled/Rattled
Gimmighoul-1 - 45/30/25/75/45/80 (Total: 300) - Ghost/Ghost - Run Away/Run Away/Run Away
Tinkatink-0 - 50/45/45/35/64/58 (Total: 297) - Fairy/Steel - Mold Breaker/Own Tempo/Pickpocket
Charcadet-0 - 40/50/40/50/40/35 (Total: 255) - Fire/Fire - Flash Fire/Flash Fire/Flame Body
Toedscool-0 - 40/40/35/50/100/70 (Total: 335) - Ground/Grass - Mycelium Might/Mycelium Might/Mycelium Might

Pokemon who get a new evolution:

Dunsparce - 100/70/70/65/65/45 (Total: 415) - Normal/Normal - Serene Grace/Run Away/Rattled
Girafarig - 70/80/65/90/65/85 (Total: 455) - Normal/Psychic - Inner Focus/Early Bird/Sap Sipper
Stantler - 73/95/62/85/65/85 (Total: 465) - Normal/Normal - Intimidate/Frisk/Sap Sipper
Basculin-2 - 70/92/65/80/55/98 (Total: 460) - Water/Water - Rattled/Adaptability/Mold Breaker

Hisuian Formes:

Voltorb-1 - 40/30/50/55/55/100 (Total: 330) - Electric/Grass - Soundproof/Static/Aftermath
Qwilfish-1 - 65/95/85/55/55/85 (Total: 440) - Dark/Poison - Poison Point/Swift Swim/Intimidate
Sneasel-1 - 55/95/55/35/75/115 (Total: 430) - Fighting/Poison - Inner Focus/Keen Eye/Pickpocket
Zorua-1 - 35/60/40/85/40/70 (Total: 330) - Normal/Ghost - Illusion/Illusion/Illusion

List of TMS

Info on abilities

Abilities
Protean/Libero: Appear to activate once per switch - Posted here

Changes to other abilities we thought were changed: Intimidate (No change), Contrary (No Change), Regenerator (No change in text, not tested mechanically)

Other Abilities: Found here and dotted through the thread

Noteworthy Move infos/changes

Rest, Roost, Recover, and similar healing moves have all been reduced to 5PP. This does not apply to Wish.
List of removed moves: https://pastebin.com/eReqHWpi
A lot of Pokemon have lost access to previous moves at least until HOME releases, if transfer moves are not wiped from the game. Notably this includes Knock Off from virtually everything that previously had it, as well as Scald only being learned by the not-LC Volcanion.

Weather changes

Hail has been replaced by Snowing - As far as we can tell, all references to Hail have now been replaced with Snowing, including abilities like Snow Warning. Snowing gives at least +Def and potentially + SpD to Ice types and does not appear to do chip damage.

Google Doc with General information

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...1ijn8Im8kU0QnjNyi3AJ6a5feM/edit#gid=353833762 - supplied and being tracked down by RoiDadadou

A big thanks to Orange Islands people for compiling all this information, don't hesitate to check the datamine thread there for more info.

Happy posting!

 

[wesh papillon]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1-US2uyTbop4mjpjqaUBI9i_SKU84O3WRKo1emkXghfI/edit?usp=sharing bop

a couple of my own observations:

The speed tiers here are absolutely crazy, between naturally fast mons like voltorb-h, fast unburden mons like drifloon, speed boost mons, chlorophyl sweeper, webs, mons with speed boosting moves like say trailblazer, and just a wide variety of fast mons in general, being mindful of one own speed tiers will be extremely important, the faster the better is what im going with for now.

authors note: it is unclear if Bonkey kong will have access to gg no re, this will for sure be very important to how fast but frail u allow urself to be.

Defensive pieces worth noting: The most oppressive offensive types for mons that wont get banned and will be good will almost surely be ghost, bird, psychic and normal type. Therefore, defensive pieces should aim to resist those and offer additional support obv. Pawniard is the obvious pick here, good defensive typing given the assumed meta, rocks, defiant Is amazing in a meta with webs, especially with a powerful sucker punch.

At least early meta, fat normals will be pivotal to the tier: I think unironically dunsparce might be one of the best mons, glare support with roost a ghost immunity means it gets to come in a lot and provides crucial speed control.

Giraf bro is cool, doesnt seem to have reliable recovery tho, but being ghost immune is always amazing, it also gets double kick so pawn isnt an easy switch in. Stantler seems a lot worst than those two to me as well.

(assumption: Sneasel k and h, scythar, qwilifish-h and basculin are quickbanned, Murkow missy and bp as well soon after, meditite is obv dumb but it might not fit the tier?)

ON TERABLAST

I think terablast will be a learning curve but I think it shouldn't even be considered for a ban for a couple of months.

Everything on both teams needing an extra dimension essentially will prob make it feels like random guess work. Tho after a while we should be able to narrow down most mons to an optimal 1-2 tera types, and be knowledgeable enough to play around it with recognizing both players mu and either trying to force an early tera and ajust course. Or to pre emotively recognize a mu as needing a certain tera mon.

Example: diglett and goth can trap basically any mons if they burn the tera slot, tho alternatively a lot of pokemon can escape trapping with a tera burn of there own.

Topic sun: holy shit the sun sweepers are sooooo good but the sun setters are sooooooo trash if u have a fix to this dm on cord thx EDIT: im dumb

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

New mons that I think could be of note:

Maschiff-0 - 60/78/60/40/51/51 (Total: 340) - Dark/Dark - Intimidate/Run Away/Stakeout

Stakeout is an Ability that hasn't gotten much distribution, but I think this thing could pull off something with it. I imagine Stakeout Crunches will hurt non-resists especially with a beefy attack stat.

Wattrel-0 - 40/40/35/55/40/70 (Total: 280) - Electric/Flying - Wind Power/Volt Absorb/Competitive

Typing is fantastic (an Electric-type that doesn't care about Diglett is really nice) and the speed tier is quite nice. Only main thing of concern is the base SpA with no real way to boost it. It also can't really make too too much use of the typing's defensive benefits because of its fragility. Reminds me a lot of Wingull of all things who wasn't great without Z-Moves but could still make by with its high power moves and I see Wattrel being similar in that regard.

Glimmet-0 - 48/35/42/105/60/60 (Total: 350) - Rock/Poison - Toxic Debris/Toxic Debris/Corrosion

This is a very strange stat distribution, 105 SpA is Abra tier power on things like Sludge Bomb/Wave. This thing gets choked by Diglett and Mudbray but its speed tier ties it with Pawn so its not THAT slow. Corrosion on a Pokemon with usable bulk is nice, but I think Toxic Debris will be the better ability, making it so it doesn't have to pick and choose the hazard it goes with. This has a good support movepool with Rocks, Spikes, Memento even. Again though, that severe weakness to Ground and lack of way of beating Steel-types is worrisome.

Shroodle-0 - 40/65/35/40/35/75 (Total: 290) - Poison/Normal - Unburden/Pickpocket/Prankster

Good movepool and speed with Prankster. U-turn, Knock Off, Encore, Parting Shot are good things to have as a supporter. Unfortunately it lacks T-Spikes which sucks as a Poison type. You can try offensive sets since it gets both Nasty Plot and SD, but the coverage is dire. (You could perhaps get by with Gunk Shot + Knock Off + U-turn on SD but you need Mud Shot on NP to hit Steels which is not the best)

Bramblin-0 - 40/65/30/45/35/60 (Total: 275) - Grass/Ghost - Wind Rider/Wind Rider/Infiltrator

Defenses are trash so it can't pull off a Pumpkaboo but it'll make leverage as a Spiker thanks to the built-in Rapid Spin immunity and Grass STAB to beat opposing hazard setters. Also gets things like Leech Seed, Strength Sap, Rapid Spin (as I mentioned before its typing is good into many common hazard setters), and Shadow Sneak for Ghost STAB. Also choked by Pawn in particular. Noticing a pattern here.....

Tinkatink-0 - 50/45/45/35/64/58 (Total: 297) - Fairy/Steel - Mold Breaker/Own Tempo/Pickpocket

We all know the wonders of Steel/Fairy as a type. Being a Steel neutral to Fighting and being one that resists Dark is a great thing to have. The special bulk is good, almost as good as Mareanie's physical bulk, it has access to Rocks, Fake Out, T-Wave, and Knock Off even. The main point of contention though is that it has huge competition by Pawniard as a Steel due to lacking the Ghost resistance and having much lower offensive presence. Still I think this could be worth looking into mainly because of the typing and having just good enough bulk and supporting movepool to make by.

Again this is mainly on-paper stuff I may be severely wrong on a lot if not all of these. (I notice a LOT of the mons mention here get choked by either Diglett or Pawn who I imagine will be really common even after things settle down)

 

[Roldski32]

Tera Type:

Dratini @ Life Orb
Ability: Shed Skin
Level: 5
EVs: 244 Atk / 36 SpA / 196 Spe
IVs: 0 HP
Naughty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Waterfall
As someone that plays Camomons Little Cup, I am greatly delight to see a Dratini with a STAB Extreme Speed in vanilla LC, but it is no doubt that SV Dratini is much, much worse than in Camo LC ( SV Dratini is like D Tier at best ). First off, Dratini steals Tera-slot on your team, you can't terastallize something like Pawniard into Ghost-type against Fighters because you have to preserve the mechanic on Dratini itself, and we all know base Dratini is completely unviable. Draco Meteor is used here as a Dragon-move because, oh god, I DESPISE OUTRAGE, AND I HATE THAT MOVE SO MUCH. Everytime Dratini clicks Outrage, it just dies straight up. This set isn't using Dragon Dance because Dratini is too frail to get a Dragon Dance up, and it needs Life Orb to reach a lot of 1HKO/2HKO benchmarks with unboosted Extreme Speed, so no Eviolite to help it set-up (Btw +1 Evio Espeed hits about as hard as +0 LO Espeed). Less Knock Off users also hurts Dratini as it needs Knock support to rip through walls with Extreme Speed. And last thing, the 3 busted Ghost (Misdreavus, Gastly, and Drifloon) are likely to be freed on Day 1, and they shut down Dratini so badly.

As for new pokemon...


Dunsparce @ Eviolite / Berry Juice
Ability: Serene Grace
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Headbutt
- Bite
- Earthquake
- Agility

I know some, if not, a lot people are gonna used Glare Dunsparce, but let's explore its other set. This one uses Agility, and in this set, you don't need to Glare every 6 mon because a single Agility boost lets you outspeed everything, and setting up is easier as Dunsparce is as bulky as Shellos with 27 HP, 14 Def and 13 SpD. Bite is mandatory because the 3 busted Ghost are immune to both Headbutt and Earthquake. You can terastallized into Normal if you seek more firepower on Headbutt,


Dunsparce @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Headbutt
- Bite
- Earthquake
- Hyper Drill

This set is currently pretty bad because of the 3 busted Ghost, but it can be an option. If your opponent doesn't have a Scarf user, then Scarf Dunsparce outspeeds their entire 6 mon, unless they have a priority user.


Dunsparce @ Eviolite / Berry Juice
Ability: Serene Grace
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Headbutt
- Bite
- Earthquake
- Coil
This fast Coil set should only be used exclusively on Web-teams, in which the speed drop from webs help Dunsparce outspeed a lot of stuff. By Terastallizing into Normal-type, Dunsparce 2HKOs a lot of neutral walls with +1 Headbutt. And again, setting up is easier for Dunsparce due to its high bulk

 

[Drifting]

Ladies and Gentlemen, if I may present the much anticipated “Drifting Week -1 Godsquad”…



AUSTRALIAN WEBS

(Note: this team assumes all the Murkrow/Missy/Meditite/Sneasel-h bullshit gets insta-yeeted)

I have a decent suspicion going into this meta that two things will be strong

1. Hyper Offense
2. Hazards (Rufflet is the only defogger, after all)

So of course I suspect that Webs, the love child of both will be great. Let me explain each member



Surskit is just Surskit. It lost scald though, so I’ve just put Hydro to compensate as Water-STAB.

This thing should really never be Terastallizing, but I’ve chosen water for it anyway so it can potentially sweep in some bizarre endgame situation.



This thing is so epic.

Obviously it is fast as hell, which is great, but it has a lot of interesting qualities. Sap Sipper makes it the perfect Foongus switch-in, and it’s movepool is pretty good. Psychic for strong STAB, thunderbolt to hit things like Rufflet trying to defog, and Tera Blast.

This is an example of a concept I am very excited to try, which is Normal types using Tera Blast as both their pre-Tera and post-Tera STAB. Another example of this me and Pap came up with was Zorua-Hisui running:

Nasty Plot/Tera Blast/Sludge Bomb/Shadow Ball with Tera Fighting

With this set, you start off as a threat with your Dual Stabs, but in a pinch can become a fighting type, now Shadow Ball for Psychics and Sludge Bomb for Fairies. I think this is really fun and mentally stimulating for a builder so I do hope we get to enjoy Tera for a while, whether it gets banned or not.

Anyway, back to Girafarig, it also uses Tera Fighting, the first of three on this team, just because Pawn will probably be so good. You start off with the Normal/Psychic stab and can transform into a lethal Fighting stab and have psychic to blow up Poison types. This mon is so epic

Also, if it gets banned you can use Calm Mind Stantler for the exact same thing, it even still has Sap Sipper.



This is the funniest mon ever. It reminds me of Balanced Hackmons back in the day, slapping Rock Head on a mon with Volt Tackle and Head Smash and shit.

I’ve opted to just use Growlithe as a better Ponyta, that makes enough sense to me. It might be better to use Tera Rock over Tera Fire, but I want my “nuke” move to have a lot of PP and not be able to miss.



Standard Rufflet. Tera Fighting on this turns it into an absolute demon, like a timburr with Roost, Flying Stab and Hustle. Absolute monster.



Standard offensive Pawniard for hazards and shit, I think Brick Break is really important for other Pawn, which this team kinda struggles against without Tera.

Speaking of Tera, Flying is for Diglett basically, as well as baiting Fighting types. Shouldn’t really be Terastallizing Pawn though.



One of the most exciting mons, Gastly is obviously always great with Life Orb, Sub, Shadow Ball and Sludge, but adding Tera Fighting makes this thing lethal. Ghost/Poison/Fighting stab from a pokemon as strong and fast as gastly is incredible, it also means you can’t get Suckered or Shadow Sneaked obv. This along with Girafarig is probably what you Tera in most games.

Overall I’m very excited to try this in the new meta, so I can actually refine it into optimal webs

 

[tazz]

Obviously it will be another week or two before everything is implemented or we can start tiering, but I think we should consider freeing everything but scyther and sneasel. Misdreavus, Murkrow and Meditite are all back, and while I find it extremely unlikely that any of them will be balanced, it would be really fun to find out.

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

So they removed scald from most pokemon

And they added Chilling Water (TM22), which is going to be scald but with frostbite chance. Maybe less BP, but perhaps Intimidate will become a threat this gen?

Edit: Turns out its not. Its weird

This might see use on mareanie or other defensive waters.

In addition, we got spikes and T spikes as TMs. The important part here is that defog and Rapid Spin aren't.

Even if we don't have a lot of Knock Off distribution, the stage looks set for a lot of HO to be present within the metagame.

Terastal seems pretty broken on paper. You can deny your opponent's positioning and bypass a check. That seems pretty ridiculous even at once a game. Z crystals had a drawback of requiring an item slot, so you couldn't run eviolite, life orb, or berry juice in conjunction with your powerful move. I'm not saying we should quickban it, but it looks like it's not going to be terribly balanced. Something that also needs to be looked into is whether every mon gets access to all types. If Pawniard doesn't get access to a ghost type Tera, then it could be balanced. We'll have to wait and see.

Also calling it now, I don't see any of the previously fully evolved mons staying in the meta for too long. Stantler, Qwilfish, Girafarig, Dunsparce and Sneasel-H all have around 100 more BST than any of the competition. They weren't designed as pre-evolutions in mind, so I'm thinking they're going to be exceedingly centralizing. (Also go for the quickbans on Scyther and Sneasel, hard agree there).

Last little bit is that Sprigatito and Quaxly might be somewhat viable. Scarf Sprig hits 25 speed and Quaxly gets Moxie and supposedly gets rapid spin. Both have a niche. We'll see whether Quaxly can be used as a sweeper with Moxie, but I definitely see Sprig being useful. Scorbunny couldn;'t cut it because of the stealth rock weakness, but without it Sprig could be pretty alright. We'll just have to wait and see.

This generation is shaping up to be something really special. Whether its a train wreck or a masterpiece is something we have yet to see.

 

[Altariel von Sweep]

i am back. i want to speak about the new pokemon we are getting, as well as how the returning mons are affected, but have in mind i will not speak about tera types nor hisuian mons (yet).
also holy shit they really axed roost and recover to 5 pp. this metagame is shaping up to be a really offensive one.

probably the pokemon i am most looking forward for. two really valuable inmunities in ghost- and grass-types, decent bulk and 19 speed, all coupled with a vast array of coverage options make it a pokemon really versatile that packs quite a punch. being able to force foongus to switch out, as well as having eq for threats such as alolan grimer and pawniard is something awesome. girafarig is likely to be used in many kinds of teams in which its sets can be tailored to face different threats that its team has trouble facing, as well as webs teams in which np sets can prove a problem being able to potentially 2hko everything. but i assure you this thing is likely to be snapped sooner or later.

jesus. this pokemon is clearly a definition of pure malice. bulk is really crazy, speed tier is quite decent for some threats, and possesses a movepool able to scare ghost-types and flinch everything with the combo of serene grace bite + headbutt. however, it is most likely that ghost-types are going to be taken care of by one of its teammates, as the signature trait of dunsparce is the ability to abuse paraflinch chances with glare + headbutt. with a bulk of 26/16/16 with proper ev investment, this pokemon is able to withstand many things that other pokemon cannot handle, as well as outspeed certain pokemon thanks to the speed investment, which allows it to reach 13 speed (really crazy!). the only notable threats for dunsparce are mankey and croagunk, so having a partner that removes those such as the returning gothita will enable it to wall many things and abuse serene grace to the fullest. as of where this pokemon can fit, i believe two options exist, such as normal spam with girafarig, and webs as people said above. the ability of getting webs up is already big, since 13 speed dunsparce can tie with 20 speedsters and outspeed everything else below that mark, and further abuse paraflinch. probably getting axed after the quickbans ensue.

llegó el tiburón
jokes aside, is there anything this thing cannot smash to pieces? adaptability 18 attack with 20 speed makes it one of the fastest sweepers in the upcoming metagame, with the stab combo of liquidation to deal huge damage to bulkier pokemon and aqua jet to pick up weakened foes. hell, it even gets flip turn, which still hits crazy strong to a foe if a switch out is needed! if it was not enough, not even the most viable poison types such as foongus, mareanie and croagunk can face it properly as they either get 2hkoed, or just outright splatted by psychic fangs. and even if they got a switch in right, with chip damage from stealth rock, neither foongus or mareanie could withstand basculin.

252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Basculin-Blue-Striped Liquidation vs. 44 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 6-9 (25 - 37.5%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Adaptability Basculin-Blue-Striped Liquidation vs. 116 HP / 180+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 6-9 (26 - 39.1%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

its teammates can clear certain pokemon basculin struggles with like recycle endure magnemite, slowpoke... so basculin can start its rampage. enjoy it while you can.

another 19 speed pokemon with sap sipper, wow. but this one, albeit not as threatening as girafarig, can serve a quite useful niche spreading status with thunder wave in bulky sets, or it can go all out (get it?) with a all-out attacking scarf set able to dish out big amounts of damage with double edge + 3 coverage moves. stantler's coverage is what makes it so valuable as it has eq, wild charge, throat chop, and zen headbutt, being able to threaten everything on the metagame if stealth rock are up. shame sap sipper is much more valuable in a metagame where a pokemon that can manage foongus is important, since intimidate could also be a decent option over it, but it is not likely to be so. at least right now.

for the love of god don't you fucking dare free them.

*sigh* alas, here we go again. diglett is back and it seems it is still going to do what it has always been doing for generation to generation, which is to trap pokemon such as alolan grimer, pawniard, magnemite and mareanie, as well as trap and pick up weakened foes. hear me out though, it now gets swords dance. not impactful for it's actual purpose, but it's funny as heck. here's off to ANOTHER gen of dealing with this forsaken abomination.

sub recycle acro sets are gonna have a field day with this metagame. lack of decent resists, unburden 17 speed outspeeding EVERYTHING and will-o-wisp cripping opposing pokemon... having growlithe as the only pokemon that can "check" you doesn't help to the case either, as it likes diglett trapping it. good riddance.

i will leave it here for now. i am still getting used to this again, but i am willing to keep investigating about everything i can get for this metagame.

 

[Joltage]

In addition, we got spikes and T spikes as TMs. The important part here is that defog and Rapid Spin aren't.

To build off of this specific point, our hazard removal options (at least pre home) are looking pretty dire

Our complete list of mons with hazard removal prehome
defog: scyther, swablu, drifloon, rufflet, fletching, noibat, rowlet, fomantis, rookidee
rapid spin: pineco, bergmite, bounsweet, rolycoly, quaxly, bramblin, toedscool

Of the defog mons, the actual good ones (rufflet and drifloon) probably would rather not run defog in an ideal scenario and the rest are generally just bad mons. On the rapid spin side of things, I think pineco, and potentially the new mons (toedscool; aka fake tentacool in particular) have the best shot at being decent, but overall it's not an inspiring list of mons.

I expect hazard stacking to be particularly strong in the early days provided you can get them down, which I think shouldn't be an issue. Hopefully home unlocks past movepools and increases what we have available on the removal front, because otherwise I think its gonna be rough for everybody.

 

[Blitz]

Tandemaus - 50/50/45/40/45/75 (Total: 305)
Normal/Normal - Run Away/Pickup/Own Tempo

Real quick since the mice are my favorite line this gen - they look wholly unimpressive except in one aspect: they possess the move Population Bomb, which is a 20 BP, 90 Acc move that can hit 2-10 times… except it is currently bugged to always hit 10 times. We all know how multi-hits work in LC, and while this thing lacks Technician like its evolution does, this still feels worthy to note til GF patches it (if they do). Someone smarter than me can run the calcs!

EDIT: Nope nvm it’s not guaranteed 10, but seems to favor it (accuracy checks like Triple Axel?). Needs more testing lol

 

[Drifting]

Wake up babe, new HO innovation just dropped

Tera Fighting (Shroodle) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: Max Attack Max Speed rest in Defense
Jolly Nature
- Gunk Shot
- Acrobatics
- Tera Blast
- Swords Dance

This shit looks absolutely cooking. I think Fighting is best because you set up on Pawn extremely for free (since it can't Knock), as well as letting you beat Rock types. Fire could be a decent option if Grookey has Grassy Glide to stop that, since it also beats steels.

Not much else to say about this, this thing has pretty good stats and could do really well in this Unburden sweeper role imo. Drifloon could be annoying maybe(?).

This thing also cool stuff like Knock Off and Prankster Parting Shot/Encore/Metronome that could give it some nice utility. I think this mon will be pretty good.

 

[ghost]

I have done only some cursory theorymonning on Gen 9, but with meaningful SwSh LC coming to a close, I may as well put some of these thoughts on the record. Please do not remember that I posted any of this if we play in tournament.

Voltorb-Hisui @ Eviolite
Ability: Static
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Def / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Energy Ball / Giga Drain
- Thunderbolt
- Thunder Wave

Voltorb-H is a lot like Elekid but with less coverage, a great dual STAB, and move defensive and support utility. The Grass STAB and decent SpA lets it hammer Volt Switch immunes like Diglett and Mudbray. It also gets support options like Reflect and Taunt. If we want to get a little custom, though...

Voltorb-Hisui @ Life Orb
Ability: Static
Level: 5
IVs: 19 HP
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Volt Switch
- Energy Ball / Giga Drain
- Thunderbolt
- Tera Blast (Fire)

calcs

236 SpA Life Orb Voltorb Flamethrower vs. 116 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 18-26 (75 - 108.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (18, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)

236 SpA Life Orb Voltorb Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 23-31 (109.5 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 31)

236 SpA Life Orb Voltorb Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Grookey: 31-39 (147.6 - 185.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 34, 39)

236 SpA Life Orb Voltorb Energy Ball vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mudbray: 23-31 (95.8 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 31)

You can thank me for this fuego later. Let's look at some other new additions:


Maschiff @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Stakeout
Level: 5
EVs: 212 Atk / 36 Def / 28 SpD / 188 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Crunch
- Tera Blast (Fighting)
- Psychic Fangs
- Play Rough

This guy is limited by his middling Speed, but Stakeout gives it enough power to create serious guessing games for your opponent. Tera Fight gives you the coverage to obliterate Pawniard, which you otherwise lack.

calcs

212 Atk Stakeout Maschiff Crunch vs. 116 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 15-18 (62.5 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

212 Atk Stakeout Maschiff Crunch vs. 116 HP / 180+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Possible damage amounts: (13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)

212 Atk Stakeout Poochyena Crunch vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 8-10 (38 - 47.6%)
Possible damage amounts: (8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)

Flittle @ Life Orb
Ability: Speed Boost
Level: 5
EVs: 36 Def / 236 SpA / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Tera Blast (Fighting)
- Stored Power
- Protect

Flittle absolutely needs Tera Fight for Pawniard, but Speed Boost means it could turn into a wincon with the right chip. Its movepool is extremely limited, but there must be a use-case for Stored Power somewhere, perhaps with Calm Mind. It out-damages Psychic starting at +4.

Glimmet @ Life Orb
Ability: Toxic Debris
Level: 5
EVs: 20 Def / 236 SpA / 40 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sludge Wave
- Power Gem
- Tera Blast (Fire)
- Rock Polish

There's gotta be something to do with Glimmet and Tera Blast, which is as strong as Abra but with awkward STABs, slightly limited coverage, and an awful Diglett weakness. TBD on the best Tera type, but Fire to beat both Pawniard and Foongus seems nice. It also does this:

calcs

236 SpA Life Orb Nihilego Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Dry Skin Croagunk: 23-29 (109.5 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 29)

 

[DaSlabhead]

god damn dis meta look like its bout to be da worst steaming hot pile of fuckin garbage ive ever done seen . those list of hazard removers dont even look theyd survive in da pokemon paralympics yall want me to use fuckin fletchling as my defogger ? shit bro dis meta gon absolutely stink . u run a ground type cuz all da hazard removers are dog so every pokemon gon b takin rocks damage when they come in n any immunity gon take 25% . u make some aggressive switches n u win da game w ur ground type .

on da other hand no mienfoo finna make this meta so enjoyable bro its like when u b hitting dat za after a tolerance break . aint no more havin to use da same lead every single fucking game n not b punished for tryna b creative . there aint no koffing too so dat shit gon be fye

but other than dat like i been said dis m eta gon b even worse than gen 6 dawg . the level of power creep seem crazy n da power of hazards means shit like chespin finna b s tier . pawniard bout to b da best mon in da tier since there aint no good fighting types . dis meta just finna b offense offense offense

i aint lookin forward to dis im not gon lie but it still finna b interesting ig

 

[ghost]

https://pastebin.com/DRX902xa

^This pastebin includes exclusively LC-eligible Pokemon for your searching convenience. go nuts.

 

[Eeveeto]

I don't know how the removal of Carvanha, Mienfoo, Grookey and Ferroseed (all common Mons it checked well) will affect it, but Rowlett does look like the best Hazard remover by far, since it was already good enough for me in SS.

Also, fuck SD Diglett. Get that shit out of the tier already.

 

[bdsqq]

Growlithe-Hisui Looks scary, it gets STAB Head Smash and Flare Blitz boosted by Rock head. With speed investment, it can get to 16 and boost with either Agility or Flame Charge to outspeed pretty much anything. It lacks coverage for ground types but the sheer damage of Head smash might be able to kill some before they EQ? it's no Ponyta but might be fun to use, especially against the Pawniard that will be in every team.
+ it gets Close Combat, Substitute, Stealth Rock, Morning Sun, Smart Strike, and thunder/psychic fangs

 

[HailMudkip258]

Are Tandemaus able to use Population Bomb at level 5? Showdown says they can't but it also says it is banned from LC. If Tandemaus is unable to use Population Bomb at level 5 there's no reason it should be banned, so I'm confused

 

[Altariel von Sweep]

Are Tandemaus able to use Population Bomb at level 5? Showdown says they can't but it also says it is banned from LC. If Tandemaus is unable to use Population Bomb at level 5 there's no reason it should be banned, so I'm confused

the pokemon is banned already due to population bomb being a broken multi hit move that can beat everything in the metagame.

 

[HailMudkip258]

the pokemon is banned already due to population bomb being a broken multi hit move that can beat everything in the metagame.

I assumed that was the case, but showdown also says it can only use Population Bomb at level 46 for some reason. Is that just a bug then?

 

[Noedge]

Actually playing some games of this tier. It’s become pretty clear that a lot of Pokémon that look good on paper or sound are just not good enough. Pawnyard can just about hang with the big guns. Magg and gerrafrig are just insane. And I’m acutely kinda glad that all put offence is not the game of the game. Because the Pokémon that can hit hard just don’t really have enough stats as a whole. Half of that is because your tanks are just moms with 450 base total. If you build fast and hard. You’ll chunk and then they’ll destroy you. I’m hoping things change with the addition of more mons and I’m begging that with the ones we have there move pools are incomplete. Because as it stands electric pivot scarf hitters are useless so no volt switch so no need to run a ground type. It’s the first lc meta tho where building specially defensive is the better option. Atm there’s only 1 viable grass type and that’s because of protein. Flame body is really strong and so is willo. The physical attackers don’t have a way to recover from it. Para would be good but the special threats are tanky and have rest. And actually just aren’t that fast. Turns out you can just wait tank the hit. Berry juice up and one shot or even better. And then there’s the insane setup sweeper you have to be ready for. Nunel with simple. Can leant amessia and curse with flame charge and earthquake. And there’s no good water types. You manage to get him in and 1 boost off if your lucky you’d have to rid of his berrry on that hit because your not getting near his hp again. After a flame charge he’s faster then every other mon. Not really a lot of prior to go around. And that just snowballs. I’m really hoping there’s some more moves coming. Moms with potential tho are the prankster mons. But other then that it’s just a stats game. I’d love for more pivot moves and status moves so you can actually stun and outplay the stat balls. We will see