So is starmie considered even useful anymore?

Sovereign

Well, everyone knows what starmie does best: rapid spin. It coincidentally has high speed and good sp. attack. All this would technically make starmie the best rapid spinner, but of course that (BAN ME PLEASE) weavile has to trap and kill it almost every time =\

One time I tried to reflect with jirachi and then u turn to starmie when skarm came out. Sadly, as soon as the stealth rock came in, a ghost was switched in. So reflect doesnt work either to stop the weavile (unless I'm missing on a sp attacker who can use reflect as a viable move, that way skarm wouldnt just walk in)

Should starmie be recommended on OU teams still? If so, is there a way to bend around the weavile problem? If not, what is the next best option?
 
Pretty useful; if your really afraid just scout. Bring in Starmie, then immediately switch to your Weavile counter.
 
You could try HP fighting. You lose a lot of versitility, but you do beat weavile as long as it pursuits you rather than night slash.
 
igottjam said:
Pretty useful; if your really afraid just scout. Bring in Starmie, then immediately switch to your Weavile counter.
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You forget the ever painful Pursuit.

Maybe a Sash Starmie with HP: Fighting? That kills I guess. I have one.

EDIT: Beaten. :/
 
The easiest is to just switch to something else immediately after bringing out Starmie. This means they get an extra free turn but usually if you're bringing in Starmie it's against something that's going to have to switch out right away anyway.

I also like carrying Colbur Berry over Leftovers; it means that overall Starmie is a lot less durable, but I can use Surf rather than spinning right away, and then the most common counters get hit pretty hard. If Weavile comes in and tries to Pursuit it gets hit by a second Surf and is KO'd; if TTar comes in Surf is a 3HKO but Starmie is faster so the result is the same (Surf on the switch, Surf on the first turn, get hit with half-damage Pursuit, Surf for the kill).

Edit: I wouldn't recommend HP Fighting; if you're that afraid of Weavile just switch out Starmie as soon as you switch it in. I especially wouldn't recommend Focus Sash on something that's supposed to Rapid Spin.
 
Hmm, If Starmie comes in, I'm reactively going for Dusknoir/Ghosts to block the spin, Weavile, maybe even T-tar pursuit. A Scarf Weavile handles the above threats decently.

(Though... Scarf Weavile seems pretty sucky, it beats out every form of any dragon, and surprises the hell out of those who are using Scarf Outrages on Garchomp)
 
Molecule said:
...

I also like carrying Colbur Berry over Leftovers; it means that overall Starmie is a lot less durable, but I can use Surf rather than spinning right away, and then the most common counters get hit pretty hard. If Weavile comes in and tries to Pursuit it gets hit by a second Surf and is KO'd; if TTar comes in Surf is a 3HKO but Starmie is faster so the result is the same (Surf on the switch, Surf on the first turn, get hit with half-damage Pursuit, Surf for the kill).
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that seems like a cool idea. im going to try it :naughty:
 
Personally, I just say screw it with Rapid Spin for now and run CSpecs Starmie. Until there are more Spikers and the like on wifi at least (no, I don't have Shoddy), I think CSpecs is more effective.
 
I've always considered Starmie a better special sweeper then a Rapid Spinner. It can Boltbeam, and has Psychic and Surf for nice STAB, plus great stats for the job. Doesn't feel bulky enough to really be used for Spinning, and it works wonders Scarfed or Glassed.

Starmie works fairly well still if you'd ask me.
 
Cyl3x said:
You forget the ever painful Pursuit.

Maybe a Sash Starmie with HP: Fighting? That kills I guess. I have one.

EDIT: Beaten. :/
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That's why I said immediately.

Scenario EX:
Lalala switched in Starmie.
Lalala switched in Swampert.
Opponent switched in Weavile.
 
Grass Knot is better than Psychic on attacking Starmie because of more damage to Milotic/Suicune/Lanturn rather than OHKOing Heracross and Gengar instead of 2HKOing.

That said, the fact that Tyranitar can now counter Starmie by taking 40% from Surf and then Pursuit it to death is not a pretty sign. I used to have Starmie on Shoddy but I switched to Donphan a long time ago, the only :good: spinner (read: not Forretress) that doesn't get hurt by Pursuit.
 
Dragontamer said:
(Though... Scarf Weavile seems pretty sucky, it beats out every form of any dragon, and surprises the hell out of those who are using Scarf Outrages on Garchomp)
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It is pretty sucky. You're better off losing a move slot to Ice Shard than you are the little power Weavile has with a Choice Band. Ice Shard continues to function as a real priority move, too, and thus beats other priority moves (such as a set-up Lucario trying to catch you with Extremespeed) in addition to the Dragons.

And Starmie useless, lol. Everything to Pursuit must be useless! And everything Dugtrio kills. And Forretress certainly isn't any worse than shitty-ass Donphan.
 
Mr.E said:
It is pretty sucky. You're better off losing a move slot to Ice Shard than you are the little power Weavile has with a Choice Band. Ice Shard continues to function as a real priority move, too, and thus beats other priority moves (such as a set-up Lucario trying to catch you with Extremespeed) in addition to the Dragons.
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Exactly. I use a CB Weavile with Ice Shard to deal with Scarfchomps and in the unlikely event I let any of the other dragons get off too many dances. It's a OHKO on all the dragons that are 4x weak. Weavile can't counter everything, so it's best to keep it CB if you're using a revenge killer because the Pursuits really don't hurt enough otherwise.

As far as the OP goes, if you fear a Weavile switch-in, just surf. Unless it has Night Slash, you're living if you stay in and surf it again, then recovering off the damage the next chance you get. The key really is to not rapid spin right after you get Starmie in there. Most things switching in really aren't going to be too happy about taking a surf, and the things that don't mind it are slower.

Of course, attacking sets should never be downplayed. Starmie still can put out some serious damage, especially with Specs.
 
Although she doesn't know it until there is a clear lack of Thunderbolt or Grass Knot- Vaporeon, Milotic, and by association, Empoleon would laugh at that set. Starmie has far too many offensive options in the field of much necessary coverage to be running a support set like that unless there's a teammate in DESPERATE need of Reflect >.>; I really don't much see the point.
 
And Forretress certainly isn't any worse than shitty-ass Donphan.
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Donphan has so many things over Forretress it's not funny, one of them being an actual attack stat. You have some flawed standards if you think Donphan is a shitty Pokemon.
 
When using Starmie, one should always Surf first, and then continue to Surf at random intervals to keep Tyranitar at bay. As long as Tyranitar isn't relegated to Ubers (which it will be at some point, but that's another debate for another thread), if it is at reasonable (~60%) health and comes in on a Recover/Rapid Spin/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam (translation: everything except a Water move), Starmie will be severely damaged at best. The standard Choice Band Tyranitar (max Attack, Adamant) does a minimum of 84.54% on the standard Starmie (304 HP, 206 Defense) with Pursuit without a switch. That said, Starmie is still an excellent choice for competitive teams due to its ability to counter big threats like Garchomp (somewhat) and Gyarados.
 
Mekkah said:
Donphan has so many things over Forretress it's not funny, one of them being an actual attack stat. You have some flawed standards if you think Donphan is a shitty Pokemon.
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i wouldn't go so far as to say donphan has 'many things' over forretress. forty can easily lay down spikes should you have another stealth rocker, as well as set up screens, and of course that threat of explosion is always nice to have. not to mention you can still get toxic spikes going along. gyro ball is always not that bad to make up for it's lack of atk stat as it's generally slower than everything. the steel part typing is pretty useful as well, resisting dragon and dark from phsyical attackers.

donphan has some advantages over forretress but i'd rather say forretress has 'many things' over donphan, however donphan might be able to do an important thing or two better
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
i wouldn't go so far as to say donphan has 'many things' over forretress. forty can easily lay down spikes should you have another stealth rocker, as well as set up screens, and of course that threat of explosion is always nice to have. not to mention you can still get toxic spikes going along. gyro ball is always not that bad to make up for it's lack of atk stat as it's generally slower than everything. the steel part typing is pretty useful as well, resisting dragon and dark from phsyical attackers.

donphan has some advantages over forretress but i'd rather say forretress has 'many things' over donphan, however donphan might be able to do an important thing or two better
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If you blow up Forrie, you just blew up your spinner. That's the thing, really: Forrie is limited to when it can blow up(barring desperation) because it is being tasked with an important job, most of the time. Forrie also takes special attacks even worse than Donphan. Outside of blowing up, it has no real way of dealing damage. It is nice defensively, but Umbreon is pretty decent in that department too. Donphan is far more likely to actually kill something, gets Stealth Rock(Forrie really doesn't have the liberty of setting up Spikes most of the time), and is far superior offensively. He can even Ice Shard Dragons in a pinch...
 
The best Spinner for me has been Blastoise.

I run this set, and have had a great deal of success with it.

Blastoise @ Leftovers
252 HP/148 Def/108 SDef Calm
~ Surf
~ Yawn
~ Rapid Spin
~ Mirror Coat

Ever since people switched from spikes to SR, it beats the living daylights out of spikers with 0 SA investment. It can Yawn at Dusknoir and Spiritomb, and Mirror Coat Gengar and Mismagius. It doesn't have to worry about Pursuit and anything dumb enough to Thunderbolt a 362 HP/300 SDef pokemon that has Mirror Coat is in for some bad news. It also beats a lot of spinners, easily defeating Donphan, Torkoal, and Forretress(unless it asplodes). Starmie only causes it problems if it has near full health and Recover. If it's weakened and Thunderbolts, Mirror Coat usually takes it out.
 
Starmie still has the merit being an excellent Gyarados and Infernape switch-in (except against cheaters like crabnebula)
 
Elminster12 said:
If you blow up Forrie, you just blew up your spinner. That's the thing, really: Forrie is limited to when it can blow up(barring desperation) because it is being tasked with an important job, most of the time. Forrie also takes special attacks even worse than Donphan. Outside of blowing up, it has no real way of dealing damage. It is nice defensively, but Umbreon is pretty decent in that department too. Donphan is far more likely to actually kill something, gets Stealth Rock(Forrie really doesn't have the liberty of setting up Spikes most of the time), and is far superior offensively. He can even Ice Shard Dragons in a pinch...
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First off, bringing up Umbreon is totally pointless in this as we are discussing Spinners.

Why do you say Donphan get Stealth Rock when Forretress has it too? Forretress is just as easy if not easier to get in on most things to randomly set up any of the 3 Spikes. You mention taking special hits. Sure any Ember from any Charmander will OHKO it, but at least it isn't weak to water, ice and grass, 3 of the most used special moves atm, which Donphan is weak to. Not to mention, while Donphan is immune to Thunder Wave, I'd rather be immune to Toxic, as Donphan is going to die a lot quicker. I'm not defending that Forretress is better, but your argument is basically pointless in whatever it is you're trying to prove.
 
Outside of blowing up, it has no real way of dealing damage.
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I beg to differ...nowadays it gets access to some lovelies like Revenge, Payback and even that most of the time 100-150 power STAB Gyro Ball.

That gives quite a decent array of coverage and power.

Sides I don't really think Starmie is capable of not being good. The thing has surprisingly durability and is almost always gonna hurt anything. If it isn't utility than its Deathstar and if not that its standard special sweeper.
 
Forsety said:
I beg to differ...nowadays it gets access to some lovelies like Revenge, Payback and even that most of the time 100-150 power STAB Gyro Ball.

That gives quite a decent array of coverage and power.

Sides I don't really think Starmie is capable of not being good. The thing has surprisingly durability and is almost always gonna hurt anything. If it isn't utility than its Deathstar and if not that its standard special sweeper.
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Point taken on Gyro Ball. But I think Forrie suffers from a serious case of "four move slot" syndrome. It can Spike, Spin, blow up, Gyro Ball....a decent amount of stuff. But he isn't outdamaging STAB EQ on Donphan. But it doesn't have much room. Where're you getting room for Revenge and Payback?....which, btw, aren't going to help, because when I see Forrie, I think about setting up(which is why I brought up Umbreon.) Gyro Ball has terrible coverage, but EQ leaves you open to a lot of nasties. Forrie is typically also going to be filling more than just spinner and spiker roles(same goes for Starmie and Donphan), it is also probably important defensively, and thus cannot be blown up lightly. It is one thing to blow up a sweeper, but it is altogether more difficult to judge when you don't need a given defensive pokemon, especially before you've seen all of the opponent's pokemon.
 
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