Smogon VGC Tournaments Feedback Thread

[zee]

I had been meaning to make a thread like this for a while. Basically I just want a centralized place where we can discuss how Smogon VGC tournaments work, how people feel about them, and what could change

Some current topics for discussion:

Circuit Autoqualifiers - The autoqualifying method won’t be removed for this season, but do people think it’s too broken or are most people happy with it? If we keep autoqualifiers for future circuits, should circuit winners autoqualify to the next similar to how the official world championships operate?

Tournament Calendar - How do people feel about the circuit tournaments in terms of timing and variety? Should we add more tournaments?

Third Team Tour - Right now we have NPA and Classics as our two team tournaments. Personally I think this is plenty for a section that isn’t primarily a smogon metagame, but if people have interested an additional team tour, this would be the place to talk about it. Side note, but NPA feedback should be kept out of this thread, there will likely be separate avenues to discuss that tournament when the time comes.

Of course these are just the ones I’m thinking of, if you have any talking points feel free.

 

[Flarefox_7]

In my opinion the auto qualifier should stay, most of the players who win tours already qualify by having enough Championship Points anyways and they allow players who start playing the circuit later in the season to have a chance to qualify. I am indifferent to the circuit winners qualifying, usually the winners have shown enough commitment to the circuit and it would be nice having them play in the next playoffs, however I don't like allowing a player who might not have shown commitment to the circuit that season instantly qualify for playoffs.

The timing for tours has felt fine to me, the only major overlap I can remember was ladder tour+fall seasonal which did not feel that bad. I looked at the circuits for a few other sections and most of them had 5-6+the invitational which is what we have right now. If we were going to add a sixth tour I believe that the best route would be adding a cup (cups are single elimination bo3 tours) and just posting the signups for each of the tours a week earlier. A lot of other tiers had some sort of classics for their circuit, I don't love the idea of a classic for the circuit but if we have a lot of interest it could be cool as a for fun tour.

Two team tours is fine, I don't know what we would do for the third one anyways since winter league is too close to NPA imo.

I noticed that a lot of other circuits have their playoffs in December/January, is that something that anyone is interested in? It could be nice having the playoffs at a different time than worlds to make it easier for any worlds players that qualify, however I'm indifferent to this.

 

[It'sJustKen VGC]

One thing that I think everyone should be able to agree is unhealthy is counter-teaming. I haven't actually seen this happen before (meaning people are sensible) but even the fact that people COULD and there's nothing against the rules for that makes me a little uneasy.

I suggest that during sign ups, players should lock a team and send an OTS with their "in". Then in Round 1, list the OTS of everyone. If you still want to keep the team change for Top Cut or something like that, thats fine.

 

[iPetBigfoot]

One thing that I think everyone should be able to agree is unhealthy is counter-teaming. I haven't actually seen this happen before (meaning people are sensible) but even the fact that people COULD and there's nothing against the rules for that makes me a little uneasy.

I suggest that during sign ups, players should lock a team and send an OTS with their "in". Then in Round 1, list the OTS of everyone. If you still want to keep the team change for Top Cut or something like that, thats fine.

I entirely disagree. Counter teaming is a crucial part of round based tours and adds another layer of depth, especially in formats like Reg G that already tend to be matchup based. If you want to use just one team that's fine but you will run the risk of getting cteamed.

 

[Flarefox_7]

One thing that I think everyone should be able to agree is unhealthy is counter-teaming. I haven't actually seen this happen before (meaning people are sensible) but even the fact that people COULD and there's nothing against the rules for that makes me a little uneasy.

I suggest that during sign ups, players should lock a team and send an OTS with their "in". Then in Round 1, list the OTS of everyone. If you still want to keep the team change for Top Cut or something like that, thats fine.

To add on to what bigfoot said, metagames progress very fast in VGC and each of these tours can take 2 months or longer. Forcing players to lock in a team at the beginning of the tour would cause the vast majority of teams to become outdated by the end of the tour.

 

[Lucien Lachance]

I only participate in the classics league, but I would love to see some of the formats shift for next time. Six of the eight formats were repeats, but that is probably reflective of how people feel about those formats and not wanting to change too many things to a new team tour. I think a shakeup is warranted ahead of the third one, however.

I think keeping a format from each generation is nice as a showcase of VGC over the years (save Gen 4 unless y'all're gonna get Huy, Skarm, and others to come back for one last ride). With that said, I doubt you'd find enough people excited to play 2011, but people asked for 2016 so what do I know? Regardless, 2014 and some of the other series / regulations should get a consideration if only to drum up interest from different players.

 

[Sapphire]

I only participate in the classics league, but I would love to see some of the formats shift for next time. Six of the eight formats were repeats, but that is probably reflective of how people feel about those formats and not wanting to change too many things to a new team tour. I think a shakeup is warranted ahead of the third one, however.

I think keeping a format from each generation is nice as a showcase of VGC over the years (save Gen 4 unless y'all're gonna get Huy, Skarm, and others to come back for one last ride). With that said, I doubt you'd find enough people excited to play 2011, but people asked for 2016 so what do I know? Regardless, 2014 and some of the other series / regulations should get a consideration if only to drum up interest from different players.

just a personal take, I don't think 6/8 of the formats last year being identical was a bad thing, but I definitely agree every format should have time in the spotlight at some point. We have CG, VGC 22, Gen 7, Gen 6, Gen 5 locked for 5/8 slots imo, which leaves us 3 slots to play around with unique ideas. I think having a different BW format would be a cool idea, and I'd definitely like to see 2014 be featured since we left it out 2 years straight.

The biggest question is: "When do we stop having all 3 Gen 7 slots?" (I don't have a good answer, but imo almost any idea is worth discussing!)
The whole point of Classics is to play old formats in a fun team tour environment, and to an extent I think its worth sacrificing a bit of popularity to rotate in formats that haven't been featured in a long time.

Classics will have a custom avatar prize for the winning team this year which will significantly boost popularity; but regardless it may also be worth considering expanding to 10v10 simply for the possibility of more featured formats at once.

 

[Lucien Lachance]

just a personal take, I don't think 6/8 of the formats last year being identical was a bad thing, but I definitely agree every format should have time in the spotlight at some point. We have CG, VGC 22, Gen 7, Gen 6, Gen 5 locked for 5/8 slots imo, which leaves us 3 slots to play around with unique ideas. I think having a different BW format would be a cool idea, and I'd definitely like to see 2014 be featured since we left it out 2 years straight.

Oh I'm sorry if it came across that I thought it was a bad thing. I only played 2013 so I couldn't have been more content. I thought it was great y'all are doing a great job

I only mentioned it to argue in favor of rotating formats.

 

[Clas]

Can I potentially suggest a farm league-like tour as an addition? Currently, team tours are really limited to those that are proven in VGC (the competition in the field is massive) and the only real ways to break through currently are by winning solo tours (which have some luck involved), win an in-person event (again, has luck elements), or be prevalent and known in the community for long periods of time (and this one is really iffy as a method). Lower skill level team tours give the chance for overlooked players to shine, whether that be as a player or a supporting character i.e. a builder or playtester, and the fact we don't actually have one for Smogon VGC is really quite surprising.

 

[Jesuuuus]

Can I potentially suggest a farm league-like tour as an addition? Currently, team tours are really limited to those that are proven in VGC (the competition in the field is massive) and the only real ways to break through currently are by winning solo tours (which have some luck involved), win an in-person event (again, has luck elements), or be prevalent and known in the community for long periods of time (and this one is really iffy as a method). Lower skill level team tours give the chance for overlooked players to shine, whether that be as a player or a supporting character i.e. a builder or playtester, and the fact we don't actually have one for Smogon VGC is really quite surprising.

I massively vibe with team tours, but I know there are other team tours out there. If smogon runs another npa like team tour (like winter league was it called?) it’s very possible you end up in the same position. There are some alternatives like OPL which has guarantees that everyone gets drafted tho.

 

[gephicka]

One thing that I think everyone should be able to agree is unhealthy is counter-teaming. I haven't actually seen this happen before (meaning people are sensible) but even the fact that people COULD and there's nothing against the rules for that makes me a little uneasy.

I suggest that during sign ups, players should lock a team and send an OTS with their "in". Then in Round 1, list the OTS of everyone. If you still want to keep the team change for Top Cut or something like that, thats fine.

Having ran our VGC UU tournament exactly like this, suffice it to say that it stifles any actual metagame progression and creative teambuilding, you're basically playing in a stagnant metagame with a team that is likely dated 1-2 weeks into the tournament. Long form tournaments and teamlock just do not mix very well.

 

[iPetBigfoot]

I massively vibe with team tours, but I know there are other team tours out there. If smogon runs another npa like team tour (like winter league was it called?) it’s very possible you end up in the same position. There are some alternatives like OPL which has guarantees that everyone gets drafted tho.

What do you mean by the same position. Not everyone would be drafted but I think thats fine; it lets people that were close to being drafted in NPA prove themselves.

 

[zee]

Can I potentially suggest a farm league-like tour as an addition? Currently, team tours are really limited to those that are proven in VGC (the competition in the field is massive) and the only real ways to break through currently are by winning solo tours (which have some luck involved), win an in-person event (again, has luck elements), or be prevalent and known in the community for long periods of time (and this one is really iffy as a method). Lower skill level team tours give the chance for overlooked players to shine, whether that be as a player or a supporting character i.e. a builder or playtester, and the fact we don't actually have one for Smogon VGC is really quite surprising.

I've really never been a fan of this idea, let me explain why. First of all, just adding a third tour to the calendar will likely get a mix of established players and maybe some middle level players or some names on Smogon. This is probably just going to be the worst of all worlds, as there's a skill mismatch all the way through and most players would probably claim they didn't get a lot out of the tour, maybe save the lower end of players getting to network with a few higher tier players.

In terms of a farm league, I'm also just not a fan of running it here. First of all, there is the NPA Arcadian tour (I don't know too much about it, but it was advertised in the NPA discord and somewhere in this forum), which I understand to be a farm league by definition - NPA draftees cannot play. But also, I just think it's going to be a lot more productive for anyone looking to level up to put in the work themselves first. Realistically, if you can only get drafted in the bigger team tours by placing well IRL, winning a circuit tour here, networking well, or topping ladder, then I think that means the system is working as intended. All of the players that do these things did them on their own, without a handicap tournament, so I think it's a bit of leap to call it too daunting for a less established player to do. Also, realistically, as someone who managed NPA, I'm just not going to care if someone went like 5-1 in a farm league. This doesn't really tell me anything without supplemental information since the competition is incomparable. It'd kinda be like being the best smash player in your friend group and then finally going to your first local. I'd also rather not get into the logistics of this tour from a manager perspective, but I could definitely see that part ending badly and it's just another reason I want to avoid entertaining this.

If the desire to run a farm league is more just "giving lesser known people a chance to play VGC" I'm also not a fan of of it here. Our other two team tournaments are stacked with world-class talent, and so far our circuit champions have been worlds players. If you're looking for lower entry VGC, the circuit tournaments provide a reasonable level of competition. Another issue is that, if the goal is to convert to IRL success, team tours really aren't the best place for it, as there is a much greater emphasis on counterteaming and trying to game your matchups than IRL, where the focus is on having the best possible team into the tournament field on any given day. There are regional team tours such as USPA, UK & Ireland Team Tour, and the APAC League that serve as a chance for new players to get connected and try out team tours, as well as smaller level ones like the aforementioned NPAA as well as OPL. I'm not extremely plugged into team tours these days but lots of people in #tours-discussion in the SmogVGC discord could probably point you in the right direction.

I apologize if this post reads as condescending. I do realize it's likely going to come off harsh, but I wrote all this to say that I think 1) we have a great talent pool and the site and I wish to stay reputable and 2) it's really not as hard to break into the team tour scene as people may make it seem, and I want to encourage everyone who feels similar to the quoted post to work towards getting to that caliber if that is your goal.

 

[Choruto]

Can I potentially suggest a farm league-like tour as an addition? Currently, team tours are really limited to those that are proven in VGC (the competition in the field is massive) and the only real ways to break through currently are by winning solo tours (which have some luck involved), win an in-person event (again, has luck elements), or be prevalent and known in the community for long periods of time (and this one is really iffy as a method). Lower skill level team tours give the chance for overlooked players to shine, whether that be as a player or a supporting character i.e. a builder or playtester, and the fact we don't actually have one for Smogon VGC is really quite surprising.

This already exists, its NPAA. NPAA has that middle ground where its not so high level that you need IRL results and the like w/NPA, but you still need to be pretty good/okay to get drafted. You can still totally get picked with just online results so you remove a big barrier of entry to NPA, and the skill required is lower so you can reach the point with just practice and playtime. With NPAA you're basically out of all the decent and commited players for a league, I cant think of another 120 players who would be in a lower skill bracket than NPAA and still be commited to play, and also be fun to watch. Then like, managers, whos gonna host this and get at least 12 managers, managing for NPAA is already a huge commitment and I don't think this new league would be prestigious enough or managed well enough to get sign ups.

Like, just my personal opinion now, if your at the level where your getting picked for this new league, your kinda just ass. I get being a lower skill level and wanting to compete, but like we as organizers have no obligation to give mid players a chance to play a league against each other, this would be like room tour skill levels just play those and work on ur skill, theres a lot to go thats easily attainable.