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Smeargle (Update)

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KnightoftheWind

is a Past WCoP Champion
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http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/smeargle

Ok, I'm just going to post the skeleton now.


[Overview]
  • Excellent early-game supporter due to access to Spore, Spikes, Stealth Rock and an amazing list of other options.
  • Good Baton Passer of various boosts.
  • Frail and can't pose much of an offensive threat.
[SET]
name: Spikes Lead
move 1: Spore
move 2: Spikes
move 3: U-turn
move 4: Stealth Rock / Counter
item: Focus Sash
ability: Own Tempo
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 Atk / 252 Def / 252 Spe


[SET COMMENTS]
  • Sets up Spikes without losing offensive momemtum.
  • Spores leads that are slower, U-turns away from faster leads.
  • Stealth Rock can be used, but Counter beats Machamp leads.
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
  • Taunt, Protect, Magic Coat, Encore, Perish Song, Explosion, Endeavour, Destiny Bond, and Lunar Dance are other options.
  • Struggles against Infernape, Jirachi, Machamp if it lacks Counter, Lum Berry Metagross and Roserade.
  • Teammates: Heatran deals with Jirachi, Metagross and Roserade, can phaze and is a powerful threat that can take advantage of Spikes. Gyarados beats Infernape and Metagross and its counters are vulnerable to Spikes. Starmie beats Infernape and likes Spikes. Shaymin beats HP Ground Roserade and likes Spikes. Scizor beats Azelf and Aerodactyl after Smeargle U-turns. Rotom-A and Gengar block Rapid Spin. Some of Lucario's counters are vulnerable to Spikes. Swampert sets up Stealth and can phaze.
[SET]
name: Anti-Lead
move1: Trick
move2: Spore
move3: Spikes / Stealth Rock
move4: U-Turn / Encore
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Own Tempo
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe


[SET COMMENTS]
  • Beats Azelf, Aerodactyl and Infernape, Pokemon that the Spiker Lead struggles against.
  • Trick cripples bulkier leads, giving you the oppurtunity to Spore or set up Spikes / Stealth Rock.
  • U-turn gets Smeargle out of unfavourable match-ups, Encore can stop set up sweepers like Calm Mind Jirachi.
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
  • Destiny Bond, Lunar Dance and Endeavour are other options.
  • Scarf Jirachi leads can still beat you.
  • Teammates: Spikes abusing partners from before still work. Pokemon that resist Iron Head (Gyarados, Heatran etc.) can stop Jirachi.
[SET]
name: Ingrain Pass
move1: Spore
move2: Ingrain
move3: Substitute / Taunt / Spider Web
move4: Baton Pass
item: Leftovers / Salac Berry
ability: Own Tempo
nature: Jolly
evs: 96 HP / 120 Def / 40 SpD / 252 Spe



[SET COMMENTS]
  • Ingrain prevents phazing, making this variety of Smeargle a key player in Baton Pass teams.
  • Substitute protects Smeargle from priority and activates Salac Berry if you have it. Taunt stops other Taunters. Spider Web gives Smeargle something else to pass.
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
  • Smeargle should be passed Speed boosts via Zapdos, Gliscor or Ninjask before switching in.
  • This set is only useful on dedicated Baton Pass teams.
[SET]
name: Drum Pass
move1: Spore
move2: Substitute
move3: Belly Drum
move4: Baton Pass
item: Salac Berry
ability: Own Tempo
nature: Jolly
evs: 244 HP / 12 Def / 252 Spe



[SET COMMENTS]
  • Only Pokemon capable of passing Belly Drum
  • Players should Substitute first, then Belly Drum and finally Spore. (Spore then Belly Drum if the opponent has a phazing move)
  • This set is viable in Ubers, because Smeargle still holds the title of only Belly Drum Passer.
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
  • Teammates: Aerodactyl, Metagross, Gyarados and Lucario are great recipients. Speed Passers such as Zapdos, Gliscor and Ninjask make Smeargle's job easier. In Ubers, Groudon, Rayquaza and Garchomp are great recipients.
[SET]
name: Trap Pass
move1: Spore
move2: Spider Web
move3: Encore / Cosmic Power
move4: Baton Pass
item: Leftovers / Lum Berry
ability: Own Tempo
nature: Jolly
evs: 96 HP / 120 Def / 40 SpD / 252 Spe



[SET COMMENTS]
  • Spider Web alongside Spore severely limits options for opponent.
  • Passing Spider Web trapping gives free set-up oppurtunities for recipients.
  • Encore limits options more, but Cosmic Power makes set-up easier.
[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
  • Teammates: Speed passers, set-up sweepers such as Dragonite, Gyarados and Lucario appreciate the passing.
[TEAM OPTIONS]
  • Leads should be paired with Rotom-A to block Rapid Spin, and sweepers that benefit from Spikes support.
  • Agility / Rock Polish passers eg. Zapdos, Gliscor etc., are good partners for Baton Passers.
  • Recipients for passing include Metagross, Gyarados and Dragonite, amongst others.
  • Smeargle isn't ideal for stall teams.
[OPTIONAL CHANGES]
  • Nasty Plot passing, Endeavor, Transform, Perish Song, Magic Coat, Memento.
[COUNTERS]
  • Sleep Talkers, fast leads, Lum Berry leads, priority users, Taunters, phazers.
 
The Anti-Lead set should have Explosion slashed next to Trick or U-Turn. 252 Atk Explosion OHKOs lead Machamp (which is always risky to switch into), not to mention that it's really devastating to bring in Smeargle lategame and hit something with a 400+ speed STAB Explosion. If not running Explosion, Smeargle should have 252 HP, as those Atk EVs will make no difference to U-Turn. 252 HP is much better for taking random priority hits and weak attacks. Assuming you're at full health, you have a decent chance to survive a CB Scizor Bullet Punch. Surprisingly, you can also take Pursuit while switching, something that 4 HP has no chance of doing.
 
Phantom_IV said:
The Anti-Lead set should have Explosion slashed next to Trick or U-Turn. 252 Atk Explosion OHKOs lead Machamp (which is always risky to switch into), not to mention that it's really devastating to bring in Smeargle lategame and hit something with a 400+ speed STAB Explosion. If not running Explosion, Smeargle should have 252 HP, as those Atk EVs will make no difference to U-Turn. 252 HP is much better for taking random priority hits and weak attacks. Assuming you're at full health, you have a decent chance to survive a CB Scizor Bullet Punch. Surprisingly, you can also take Pursuit while switching, something that 4 HP has no chance of doing.
Click to expand...

Sounds reasonable enough, I'll give it a test and see how it goes. Fixed up the EVs as well.
 
panamaxis said:
Why aren't we mentioning Endeavor on the lead set?
Click to expand...

You can blame Joel for that, since the lead skeleton is based off of the lead Smeragle update he did about a month ago. I personally think Endeavor isn't a very effective move on Smeargle, but I don't see why it shouldn't be mentioned in AC. It's in AC now.

An update on Explosion for Anti-Lead. I'm rather iffy on it, most of the times when it happened to be useful, U-turn would've done the same job without killing Smeargle, and giving up the utility of U-turn to beat a single lead that isn't exactly favourable against the standard lead to begin with isn't worth it in my opinion. Not to mention by blowing up Smeargle you lose valuable entry hazard support needlessly. This isn't a final decision, but I'll most likely lump Explosion into AC.
 
This is minor but what's the point in the 4 attack EVs on the lead set, aren't they better off in HP? U-turn would likely be used on a Taunt lead to break the sash rather than deal any significant damage. I can see smeargle getting hit a LOT more then it hitting the opponent back.

More thoughts later.
 
An update on Explosion for Anti-Lead. I'm rather iffy on it, most of the times when it happened to be useful, U-turn would've done the same job without killing Smeargle, and giving up the utility of U-turn to beat a single lead that isn't exactly favourable against the standard lead to begin with isn't worth it in my opinion. Not to mention by blowing up Smeargle you lose valuable entry hazard support needlessly. This isn't a final decision, but I'll most likely lump Explosion into AC.
Click to expand...

I guess my playstyle for Anti-Lead Smeargle is different from yours. I generally find myself using Spore right off the bat against most leads, forcing a double switch. Since I run 252 Atk, I can't risk Trick against even slower leads (0 Atk Swampert OHKOs with Earthquake).

I guess what I'm saying is that if Explosion is used, it should be used with 252 Atk and the moveset Explosion, Spore, Spikes, UTurn. And a mention of having a second lead (such as Shuca heatran) that sets up SR.
 
[Set]

Name:Trick Room Lead
Move 1: Trick Room
Move 2: Spore
Move 3: Endeavor / Destiny Bond
Move 4: Ice Shard / Stealth Rock / <edit> Spikes / <edit> Toxic Spikes / <edit> Foresight
Item: Focus Sash
Nature: Brave
Ability: Own Tempo
IVs:0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpDef / 0 Speed
EVs: 252 Atk









[Set Comments]
  • Sets up Trick Room.
  • Spore on FASTER Pokes after the Trick Room that don't have priority moves.
  • EVs and IVs allowed insure opponents Poke can cripple Smeargle, allowing for maximum effectivness with Endeavor.
  • Sets up Stealth Rock <edit> Spikes, or Toxic Spikes.
[Additional Comments]
  • Encore, Explosion, Magic Coat
  • Stuggles against weather leads
  • Teammates: Any Poke under a base 80 Speed, but under base 40 Speed is amazing, as usual on Trick Room teams. Pokemon such as Snorlax, Dusknoir, Bronzong, and Slowbro can round out the team for later in the battle, after Smeargle starts up the Trick Room, puts an opponents Poke to sleep, and cripples another potential Poke via Endeavor.
 
I think that Stealth Rock is kind of "meh" with Smeagle. Why not use Spikes + Toxic Spikes? Even though Roserade can do this too, it cannot use a sleep move + Taunt or U-turn.
 
Skippy, that set is already under write-up (I believe) and doesn't work well in OU due to the large number of ghosts in the tier. Not to mention that OU doesn't have the incredibly powerful attackers that Ubers has.
 
Phantom_IV said:
Skippy, that set is already under write-up (I believe) and doesn't work well in OU due to the large number of ghosts in the tier. Not to mention that OU doesn't have the incredibly powerful attackers that Ubers has.
Click to expand...

6-out-of-48 (or 7-out-of-49 if you count Mismagius in BL) isn't a big number.

And the only version of Smeargle currnently in the write up section is the Metal Burst Smeargle.

Also, Destiny Bond was listed as another option over Endeavor to take care of Ghosts.

I'd have thought priority users (especially Dragonite leads and Scizor) would have been the first complaint, not Ghosts. @_@
 
Yeah, but you see Rotom-A or Gengar on every other team. You also have problems with weather and priority.
 
Örly said:
Yeah, but you see Rotom-A or Gengar on every other team. You also have problems with weather and priority.
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Versus priority users, such as Anti-Lead D-Nite, Spore first, Trick Room later.

Versus weather leads, Trick Room first to set up for the rest of your team.

Rotom and Gengar can't do much if Destiny Bond is used over Endeavor, which makes the only real consistantly threatening Ghost down to one...Dusknoir, since it will go first with Trick Room up.

Or, should someone REALLY like Endeavor, Foresight could be an option over Ice Shard or entry hazards.

*EDIT* I don't see anybody actually switching in Gengar for any reason during Trick Room.
 
Yeah, like versus every popular lead it gets owned by. Azelf owns, Machamp owns it, Aerodactyl owns it, anything with Lum Berry + Priority, Taunt, weather, or haxage owns it. It's too unreliable versus the top leads to even be effective because later on hazard will be up making its Sash worthless if it decides to keep it. It doesn't really prevent the most popular leads from doing their job.
 
Örly said:
Yeah, like versus every popular lead it gets owned by. Azelf owns, Machamp owns it, Aerodactyl owns it, anything with Lum Berry + Priority, Taunt, weather, or haxage owns it. It's too unreliable versus the top leads to even be effective because later on hazard will be up making its Sash worthless if it decides to keep it. It doesn't really prevent the most popular leads from doing their job.
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Own Tempo + Focus Sash makes Machamp useless versus it if you Spore first. If you want to play it safe, in case it has Lum Berry, just set up Trick Room. Machamp is merely set up fodder at this point versus Slowbro or Slowking, if they are chosen as teammates.

Lum Berry Pokes are useless due to the fact that they are most generally relying on something that will usually make them faster than Smeargle, allowing time to Endeavor after Trick Room is set up. Even if they have priority, and KO Smeargle, it has had time to do it's primary job of setting up Trick Room.

Faster Taunt users such as Aerodactyl and Azelf will beat this Smeagle. However, this is the only way it can be beat. With Trick Room up, anything a non-Taunt Pokemon might do will be a moot issue all together.
 
panamaxis said:
This is minor but what's the point in the 4 attack EVs on the lead set, aren't they better off in HP? U-turn would likely be used on a Taunt lead to break the sash rather than deal any significant damage. I can see smeargle getting hit a LOT more then it hitting the opponent back.

More thoughts later.
Click to expand...

Eh, it doesn't exactly matter where the last EVs go, they don't make a gigantic difference :/. The idea behind U-turn on the anti-lead is general mid-game use. Just Spore a random Pokemon, then U-turn to scout their switch-in and bring in the appropriate counter.

Phantom_IV said:
I guess my playstyle for Anti-Lead Smeargle is different from yours. I generally find myself using Spore right off the bat against most leads, forcing a double switch. Since I run 252 Atk, I can't risk Trick against even slower leads (0 Atk Swampert OHKOs with Earthquake).

I guess what I'm saying is that if Explosion is used, it should be used with 252 Atk and the moveset Explosion, Spore, Spikes, UTurn. And a mention of having a second lead (such as Shuca heatran) that sets up SR.
Click to expand...

Most slower leads with the exception of Metagross and Machamp wouldn't usually stay in on Smeargle because of the threat of Spore. So Trick would be able to mess up their status absorber, usually either a bulky Pokemon or a RestTalker. Either way, they won't like the Scarf, and you can safely Spore something else.

I've decided to put Explosion in Additional Comments. Thanks for your comments.

Skippy the Great, I'm not going to put that set in the analysis. Trick Room is generally a terrible strategy in OU due to the lack of a boosting for it, not to mention Smeargle can't come in repeatedly like Bronzong can. Sorry, but I don't think your set belongs onsite.
 
Skippy the Great said:
Own Tempo + Focus Sash makes Machamp useless versus it if you Spore first. If you want to play it safe, in case it has Lum Berry, just set up Trick Room. Machamp is merely set up fodder at this point versus Slowbro or Slowking, if they are chosen as teammates.
Click to expand...

As much as I hate to say it, I feel that you kind of lost credibility there. Attacking Lead Machamp (the most common one) should always carry Lum Berry, and Encore Lead Champ beats you and gets a sub up if you play it safe and go for the Trick Room first.

Lum Berry Pokes are useless due to the fact that they are most generally relying on something that will usually make them faster than Smeargle, allowing time to Endeavor after Trick Room is set up. Even if they have priority, and KO Smeargle, it has had time to do it's primary job of setting up Trick Room.
Click to expand...

The three most common leads that carry Lum are Machamp, Metagross, and Skarmory. Machamp and Metagross beat you outright with STAB attack + Bullet Punch, and Skarmory beats you even more badly, Taunting you turn one and then setting up.

Faster Taunt users such as Aerodactyl and Azelf will beat this Smeagle. However, this is the only way it can be beat. With Trick Room up, anything a non-Taunt Pokemon might do will be a moot issue all together.
Click to expand...
This just isn't true. Aero and Azelf do beat this set, as you said, but Roserade, opposing Smeargle, Infernape, Metagross, and Machamp all beat it as well, and frankly, would you consider setting up a 5 turn field effect worth losing one of your setters for that effect?
 
Windsong said:
As much as I hate to say it, I feel that you kind of credibility. Attacking Lead Machamp (the most common one) should always carry Lum Berry, and Encore Lead Champ beats you and gets a sub up if you play it safe and go for the Trick Room first.



The three most common leads that carry Lum are Machamp, Metagross, and Skarmory. Machamp and Metagross beat you outright with STAB attack + Bullet Punch, and Skarmory beats you even more badly, Taunting you turn one and then setting up.


This just isn't true. Aero and Azelf do beat this set, as you said, but Roserade, opposing Smeargle, Infernape, Metagross, and Machamp all beat it as well, and frankly, would you consider setting up a 5 turn field effect worth losing one of your setters for that effect?
Click to expand...

On the un-bolded parts, you got me, so no arguments there. Would I consider sacrificing one Poke for a 5 turn (4 turn actually, since it counts the turn you use it) field effect...Yes, I would.

All of the Pokes out there with a base 130+ Atk or SpAtk that are slower than next Christmas waiting to sweep thanks to Trick Room, usually hitting hard enough to not need to bother with entry hazards to help them is more than enough to make a team.

I agree to let this go, as a gimmick, but as far as the actual setting up of Trick Room for four turns of your teammates use, just go look and see how many Pokes there actually are with under a base 80 Speed stat, and over a base 130 Atk or SpAtk stat, and I promise you will reconsider that part of the discussion.
 
Skippy the Great said:
On the un-bolded parts, you got me, so no arguments there. Would I consider sacrificing one Poke for a 5 turn (4 turn actually, since it counts the turn you use it) field effect...Yes, I would.

All of the Pokes out there with a base 130+ Atk or SpAtk that are slower than next Christmas waiting to sweep thanks to Trick Room, usually hitting hard enough to not need to bother with entry hazards to help them is more than enough to make a team.

I agree to let this go, as a gimmick, but as far as the actual setting up of Trick Room for four turns of your teammates use, just go look and see how many Pokes there actually are with under a base 80 Speed stat, and over a base 130 Atk or SpAtk stat, and I promise you will reconsider that part of the discussion.
Click to expand...

Hmm, well, there are a couple things I'm not quite sure on about your reply.
First off, you bolded that Metagross, Machamp, and Infernape don't beat that set. If you face Machamp or Metagross, you set Trick Room and then they KO you with MeteorMash/Dynamicpunch + Bullet Punch, and then you're left with something like four turns to attempt a sweep, and standing in your way is a full HP Metagross or Machamp.

Infernape just plain beats you, with Fake Out + Close Combat/Fire Blast.

And lastly, though I guess this is just a matter of opinion, it honestly doesn't seem worth it to sacrifice Smeargle for 4 turns to attempt a sweep. Especially since a team is only running Trick Room at all in most cases if their entire team benefits from it, and that basically means that the team needs a minimum of three Trick Room setters who have viability to set TR midgame.

Although, I guess that as you said, it could be mentioned at some point in the analysis, as a gimmick.

* also, the thing is pokemon with base 130 Atk /SpA =/= OHKO on everything, unless the opponent is running pure Hyper Offense, in which case Smeargle won't get a chance to set up since the lead will be something like Azelf.
 
I personally think the EVs on the Anti-lead set should be 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe. It allows Smeargle to survive Azelf's Psychic (though only just barely).
 
NightShadow said:
I personally think the EVs on the Anti-lead set should be 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe. It allows Smeargle to survive Azelf's Psychic (though only just barely).
Click to expand...
Actually, 4 HP / 252 SpD / 252 Spe is better overall for taking special hits. Smeargle should either be going for a 100% bias towards Defense or Special Defense.

My spread:
Azelf 252 Psychic vs. 4/252 Smeargle 70.6% - 83.7%
Suicune 252 Surf vs. 4/252 Smeargle 59.9% - 70.6%
Suicune 252 Hydro Pump vs. 4/252 Smeargle 75.4% - 89.3%

Your spread:
Azelf 252 Psychic vs. 252/4 Smeargle 84.4% - 99.7%
Suicune 252 Surf vs. 252/4 Smeargle 71.7% - 84.4%
Suicune 252 Hydro Pump vs. 252/4 Smeargle 90.1% - 106.4%

You could argue that your spread takes physical hits better than this one. However, if you wanted Smeargle to take one physical attack, you should be using a spread of 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe. If for some reason you wanted to use an "optimal bulk" (quoted because of its terrible defenses) spread, you should be using a spread of 96 HP / 120 Def / 40 SpD / 252 Spe.
 
Well, those calcs tell me something different. It says that you're going to be able to take 1 attack from most things, but never two. Therefore, you might as well max the HP, because almost all priority is physical and those are the types of moves people are going to use to pick you off.
 
jumpluff said:
You could test out Counter on the Anti-Lead for Machamp and co., but they might start Bullet Punching you first.
Click to expand...

Only problem is that without Focus Sash, Machamp will be taking out Smeargle in one hit no matter what, so Counter won't be seeing an appearance on the Anti-lead at all.
 
Why are a bunch of EVs in defense on the Spikes lead? I doubt they will help you live a Bullet Punch from Scizor (Which is like the only reason I would think about running that much def), so why are we forgoing overall bulk? Minds as well be able to take one non-stab special along with physical attacks if Sandstorm breaks your sash or something.

Maybe on the anti lead, you could slash T-wave with Encore/Uturn. That really fucks over opposing teams when something is asleep and paralyzed, and if it works, you get up rocks too. Down side is it can't attack, but then again, Smeargle isn't going to be doing any real damage anyway. Otherwise, good job.
 
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