Gen 4 Skarf-Skarmory Semi-Stall [DPP OU - Ladder Top 5]

Chou Toshio

Chou Toshio

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Hi All.

So I basically don't exist as a Smogonite or Pokemon Player in recent years; though I like to watch FSG and BKC, and have been tuning into some of the big channels recently just to see the wacky adventures of Joey and Blunder in early Gen 9. But I was surprised when my brainless laddering and auto-pilot tweaking recently went on a bit of a streak and suddenly found myself in Top 10 5 on the ladder. I thought, "Alright, maybe this is worth sharing then" especially to highlight the EPIC POWER of Choice Skarf Skarmory lead, and 3 Choice Scarfers, yes THREE in Total.

Here's the team:
Skarmory
Tyranitar
Swampert
Rotom-H
Roserade
Lucario

Pretty much the whole team evolved out of thinking about the Lead Meta Game, and deciding that I wanted to give Choice Skarf Skarmory a chance. More on that below, but starting from that assumption, the team would be a Hazard-setting Semi-Stall team looking to use defensive synergy to quickly set up hazards and spread passive damage while quickly shifting to capitalize on that with offense. This is actually the 2nd time I've reached Top 10 with the concept, earlier versions focusing on a late game Flygon Sweep and greater focus on surprise Mid-Game Wall-Breaking; but I found this version to be much more consistent and satisfying to play; more fail-safes against the many threats in the meta.


500px-227Skarmory.png

Skarmory @ Choice Scarf (AKA Smogon Bird 0.4)
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sleep Talk
- Spikes
- Whirlwind

I've tried a whole bunch of leads, but I keep coming back to this guy because he's just sooo much fun, and so useful. I've got a detailed set post here->
The basic premise is that Skarmory outruns Azelf and all leads slower than it and sets up Spikes off the bat. It screws all the Trick-Scarf leads, it Brave Birds Rose into the ground, it absorbs Sleep from Sleep leads, and sometimes gives Machamp a good spank if you feel like going that route. Skarf Skarm's got a nice set of matchups and interestingly, I've found its weaknesses as a lead can almost all be fixed by switches into Tyranitar. (Against Aero, Brave Bird once as it Taunts then switch to Choice Luke or Swampert to deal with it). Every lead has weaknesses, but this one is pretty consistent overall on the current ladder.

But the beauty of Skarmory is that it's not done after that. It starts off with very consistent spike setting, but it gets surprise kills in the mid game with its speed and powerful Brave Bird. If it makes it to the late game, it can sweep. If it does any one of these 3 things it's already paid for itself, and if it did all 3 you probably won the whole game.

Skarmory has only 1 Base Attack less than Talon Flame, has a speed stat better than TTar (one of DPP's best skarfers), and unlike Honchkrow or Staraptor has SR neutrality and Sand immunity. It's useful at every stage in the game, and if you think of it as a suicide lead/offensive pivot, it does a lot of work. Gen 6 taught us that Smogon Bird wins as long as it's alive and faster, and that concept works surprisingly well for Skarmory battering teams with 252 Brave Birds, laughing at sand and hazards, and swagging into battle surprisingly often with its decent bulk and resistances. Unlike Defensive Skarm this mon isn't a king of walling, but its a jack of sooooooo many trades and it's mostly trading up (on kills against your opponent).

Major defensive roles: First line of defense/sleep absorb against Breloom; it is a check against Gengar, when you can switch into a predicted Shadow Ball and kill it if it has small prior damage; it is a temporary road block to a Flygon Sweep, and check/Revenge Killer against most Fighting types (including hilariously, Infernape— with this often being an Infernape lure). It is also something Lucario and Scizor must take into account before going for a late game SD Sweep-- Skarmory must be sufficiently weakened, and/or they must have sufficient health to survive a full ATK Brave Bird. Even on its last legs, Skarm can switch in and click whirlwind to prevent a setup sweeper from getting a second turns of setup. With 2 other Choice Skarfers, that's often enough to keep the game in play.


500px-248Tyranitar.png

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Stone Edge

Skarmory's partner in crime, Tyranitar and Skarm make a Scarf'd offensive-defensive core, both surprisingly fast, surprisingly strong, surprisingly bulky, and spreading passive damage backing each other up; with Skarm being some physical buffering and Tyranitar bring the Special Defensive buffering. Neither is a long-term solution to offensive threats, but with aggression, passive damage, and the speed of Skarf, they both use defense to out-race the opponent in the offensive battle. TTar works with Skarm on its lead matchups, breaking sashes and attacking against leads that Taunted Skarm or are not likely to run from it or finishing off opponents that were brought down to sash by Brave Bird.

Major defensive roles: Most critical is picking off Starmie of course, the most competent Rapid Spinner and the one that threatens Rotom-H the most. Is part of a multi-check system of checks against Special Attackers, notably Zapdos, Heatran, Latias, Gengar, and even not-scarf/non-mach Infernape. Sand is critically important passive damage, and this team would have even more trouble with mons like Zapdos and Suicune without getting rid of their lefties. In a Pinch, Superpower is helpful against Clefable if something happened to Lucario. If Clefable did not exist, I would probably run Earthquake for extra insurance against Jirachi. Depending on the matchup, Tyranitar and Skarm are probably your best Knock Off absorbers.


220px-479Rotom-Heat.png

Rotom-Heat @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Def / 220 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Will-O-Wisp
- Discharge
- Rest

Spin Blocker and 2nd offensive physical tank after Skarm. Rotom's #1 job is to work to keep hazards up, but it also works with Skarm to keep Machamp leads in check, and is a critical offensive-defensive check to many physical attackers. Really, Rotom is irreplaceable and having such a good spin blocker so good at making progress is part of what makes this team possible.

Major defensive roles: Ev'd to Outspeed Breloom, this is my 2nd Breloom Check, but it is also a critical piece of my game plans against Machamp, Gyarados, Metagross, Bronzong, Scizor, Swampert, Lucario, and is a (very) soft check to Jirachi. It's so flexible, its always doing something, and even when all it does is Burn a TTar and get taken down simultaneously (which isn't often--often it is watching TTar dye as it survives to fight again with Rest by the skin of its teeth), that means less pressure on Skarm, Swampert, and Luke to deal with the rest.

500px-260Swampert.png

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Stealth Rock

My 3rd Physical defensive tank after Skarm and Rotom. Swampert's job is to set up Stealth Rocks, be an all-purpose defensive check, Phaze to spread damage and keep us in the game, and make sure I don't lose to Iron Head spam Jirachi. Having 2 Phazers between this and Skarm is also critical in staying on top of the game's flow with so many Choice'd Pokemon. Pretty standard set without need of a lot of explanation, but definitely a lynchpin of the team.

Defensive Role: Counter everything. lol, an exchaggeration but not by much. Swampert's kind of a catch-all to most of the meta, just have to be careful not to task it with too much; which is why the rest of the team shares so many critical defensive-offensive tasks. All of them make Swampert more robust, and it makes all of them more robust, because none are hard walls. When playing Pert though, you need to especially protect and lean on other teammates to take the lead if you suspect Flygon, Dragonite, or physical Jirachi are going to be major threats in a game; because Pert plays a critical defensive role against those. Opinion: BAN JIRACHI



500px-407Roserade.png

Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 72 SpD / 188 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Leaf Storm
- Extrasensory
- Aromatherapy

Roserade is a real swiss army knife of utility here, but the primary role of this slot is as a Cleric. Getting rid of status is something we dramatically underrated when DPP was present gen imo, and on this team the ability to heal off Thunder Waves and Will-o-Wisps is huge when relying on this many offensive Skarfers. It takes off some of the pressure to predict, and means throwing out Yellow Color and escaping on a full para does NOT let Starmie or Latias get free rein. Aromatherapy also gives Rest Rotom multiple chances to get back in the game even after it's used its Lum Berry and can turn a Skarm slept by Breloom into a late potential Late Game sweeper (being careful about your timing and Sleep Clause of course). Also, if your Swampert gets any Burn or Poison AND there is a non-zero chance your opponent has Jirachi, you MUST protect Rose until you can make a safe spot for it to guarantee the aromatherapy and bring Swampert back in the game or you will lose— at least you have that out. Ban Jirachi!

Aside from being a Cleric, Rose is also my 2nd offensive Special Tank after TTar and works with TTAr to soft-check special threats. I've tried both Blissey and Clefable in this slot to varying degrees of success, but found Rose works better for this team primarily for being a 3rd Breloom Check and resisting Gengar's Focus Blast— so I have 2 Shadow Ball switch-ins and here’s a Focus Blast switch-in also neutral to Ghost. Also Black Sludge and good Sp.A and Speed make Rose much less of a target for Trick-Scarf in general, but Rose’s style and Natural Cure make it as reliable a Gengar switch-in as you’ll find.

The other moves are aimed at Progress. Leaf Storm is the main offensive move and helps against Water Types, while Extra Sensory is specifically for Breloom & Gengar in 1 slot. Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, and Hidden Power Ground all having their tested merits as well, but I've found Leaf Storm and Extra Sensory as the best 2 move combination. Not as offensive coverage but because Rose needs attacks only to hit specific targets that tend to stay in on Roserade or need killing no matter what. Gengar, Breloom, Suicune and Starmie are such threats that are often arrogant enough to stay in and just need to be killed somehow. On turns where you’re sure they’re switching out and you need to make progress, throwing out Toxic Spikes is usually better than hoping for results from Rose’s attacks. I never prioritize them, they’re more luxury than necessity, but I found it better than Sludge Bomb+Pray for Poison for ensuring Rose can make progress in the early game when the opponent is likely to switch. Sleep Powder I've tested, but was just too unreliable and unnecessary; especially with all the other status options this team thrown out, Rose was better when given higher reliability in specific narrow scenarios (KILL THAT GENGAR!!) rather than trying to use a blanket check unreliable sleep move.

Major defensive roles: Soft check on most special attackers, especially specially bulky Waters against which it can make progress with Toxic Spikes, or change momentum with Aromatherapy. Speed EVs allow you to outspeed Jolly Breloom and smack it with Extra Sensory, with this being my THIRD Breloom check. (Yes, you need 3 of them, and sometimes even then you still get swept by it-- BAN BRELOOM). Works with TTar and Skarm to check Gengar (3 is not needed, but definitely you need 2 checks for Gengar, 3 is better).

500px-448Lucario.png

Lucario @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
- Copycat

Skarf Luke's late game Sweep is what makes this whole team work. This is what all the hazards, and sand, and phazing and status is all building up to. Big Luke beating everything into the ground is the payoff (with Skarmory Sweep as a backup plan). If you're playing this team and both Luke and Skarm are dead, you probably fucked up. STAB Close Combat and that speed is so devastating, and sand immunity, ExtremeSpeed/Bullet Punch resists, and ability to reliably deal with both +1 Gyara and Dragonite all make Luke the awesome scarfer we know it as. But honestly, for me the biggest reason to choose this over Flygon or even Jirachi, is Inner Focus. Thats's right, being a 3rd line of defense against Iron Head Jirachi (4th if you count Skarmory) is really why we go with Luke. BAN JIRACHI

Major defensive roles: Outspeed and kill Tyranitar, Dragonite & Gyarados at +1. Revenge kill Heatran and soft check most offensive mons. Don't care about Trick Jirachi's Iron Head Flinch and finish it off with help from Spikes and your teammates. Only guaranteed kill button against Clefable. BAN CLEFABLE.



And that's the team! Hope you all enjoy, and maybe one day I'll open a tourney replay and see Choice Scarf Skarmory.
Also ban Breloom, Clefable, and Jirachi, joking not joking.

Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1716877466-sevg7id507i6lecdq0gq6z8rulnoekrpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1703667988
 
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Chou!

It's good to see an old school player post a gen 4 OU team. Cool team and concept, not going to lie when I saw Scarf Skarm I was like is this a real post? but I can see how it works in terms of surprising other leads and Pokémon like Breloom late in game (I might steal this from you).

In terms of threats I can see Crocune being an issue just because you don't have a hard hitter I'll post some calcs below to show you what I mean:
252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 115-136 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 109-130 (26.9 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 218-258 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I posted the Roserade Calc if Suicune was at full health and decided to calm mind before the switch-in, it would be able to Rest up after the Special Attack drop.

I get you would probably go out to Swampert and Roar it out, but I'm talking about Crocune as a late game situation could be unpleasant but you can manage if your cards are played correctly.

_____

I don't have much suggestions since you explained yourself really well in the description and it took me a while to think of the threats to this team (Which is not a lot).

I wouldn't change anything regarding Skarmory or Tyranitar.

For Rotom-H I would say go with Chesto Berry > Lum Berry so when you do get statused you don't have to activate your Lum Berry and make sure to keep it for when you want to rest up. Small nitpick but that's probably how I would itemize Rotom. The biggest status you don't want on Rotom is probably Sleep, it can manage with toxic and burn and just rest up when it needs to.

I wouldn't change anything regarding Roserade or Swampert.

I would say I would prefer to have Scarf Jirachi over Lucario because it will still check Gyarados and Dragonite still but also give the opportunity to trick something like a Suicune setting up Calm Minds or just to make a wall of choice completely invalid. I do think it would be a good security blanket but I do understand if you want to stick with Lucario especially for the surprise factor and not to get flinched by Scarf Jirachis.


1669603630991.png

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Trick
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch

Aside from that great team and thank you for posting it!
 
AndViet said:
Chou!

It's good to see an old school player post a gen 4 OU team. Cool team and concept, not going to lie when I saw Scarf Skarm I was like is this a real post? but I can see how it works in terms of surprising other leads and Pokémon like Breloom late in game (I might steal this from you).

In terms of threats I can see Crocune being an issue just because you don't have a hard hitter I'll post some calcs below to show you what I mean:
252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 115-136 (28.4 - 33.6%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 109-130 (26.9 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after sandstorm damage and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Roserade Leaf Storm vs. +1 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 218-258 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I posted the Roserade Calc if Suicune was at full health and decided to calm mind before the switch-in, it would be able to Rest up after the Special Attack drop.

I get you would probably go out to Swampert and Roar it out, but I'm talking about Crocune as a late game situation could be unpleasant but you can manage if your cards are played correctly.

_____

I don't have much suggestions since you explained yourself really well in the description and it took me a while to think of the threats to this team (Which is not a lot).

I wouldn't change anything regarding Skarmory or Tyranitar.

For Rotom-H I would say go with Chesto Berry > Lum Berry so when you do get statused you don't have to activate your Lum Berry and make sure to keep it for when you want to rest up. Small nitpick but that's probably how I would itemize Rotom. The biggest status you don't want on Rotom is probably Sleep, it can manage with toxic and burn and just rest up when it needs to.

I wouldn't change anything regarding Roserade or Swampert.

I would say I would prefer to have Scarf Jirachi over Lucario because it will still check Gyarados and Dragonite still but also give the opportunity to trick something like a Suicune setting up Calm Minds or just to make a wall of choice completely invalid. I do think it would be a good security blanket but I do understand if you want to stick with Lucario especially for the surprise factor and not to get flinched by Scarf Jirachis.


1669603630991.png

Jirachi @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Iron Head
- Trick
- Ice Punch
- Thunder Punch

Aside from that great team and thank you for posting it!
Click to expand...

Thanks dude, appreciate your reply! I think your analysis is very good.

First off absolutely Crocune is a menace and Suicune in general. So are Gyarados and offensive Swampert just attacking honestly but even back in the day one of my biggest complaints about Gen 4 was that the Water checks are terrible imo.The really best way to fix this team: Put Ferrothorn on it and ban Breloom. lololol
But yeah my game plan against Suicune/Waters is mostly set up hazards, play around them, war of attrition and thank god Suicune is not too common in general. I think it’s less popular because of increased focus on passive damage, so amping up that passive damage is the key to keeping it down.

For Jirachi I can definitely see how Trick Scarf could be very valuable but I also worry about Clefable. Having to rely on one chance to hit it with Trick seems a bit dicey for the slot that would still have to serve as a primary Clefable check. Something to try though, since even without tricking I’m guessing ScarfRachi usually beats Clefable with Iron Head (?).

Chesto > Lum is good too for the reasons you mentioned. When I first made Rotom is was Chesto, but eventually switched to Lum because of annoyance with random paralysis.

I’ll revisit the stuff above for sure. Thanks!


Also yes— please steal! In all likelihood with just me, Skarf Skarm will just be forgotten as I fade out of laddering at some point. Happy to have anyone remember this as a gimmick, but actually a usable one because it accomplishes stuff even if people know about it.
 
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From one old-school player to another, this is a very cool team and I really like it! Just wanted to express that.

It's difficult to suggest anything concrete as you've clearly been very thoughtful. That said, I wonder if Swampert ever feels slightly weak or like the weakest link? It seems to me that his utility would be really limited against stall teams, which for a team with 3 scarfers, seem like it could be a problematic matchup. (Impressively, none of these 3 scarfers have Trick!) Swampert doesn't have any recovery so it does seem like it has its hands full being the main physical tank on the team. I wonder if you would consider using Hippowdon in that slot?

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock / Ice Fang
- Slack Off
- Earthquake
- Roar

What you gain is Slack Off and more bulk, but of course you're giving up an Iron Head resist, so that has to be somewhat scary. If you wanted to have Ice Fang and Roar, it seems to me like you could put SR on that Superpower/EQ flex slot for Tyranitar, and maybe also on the Sleep Talk slot for Skarmory just to be extra sure. Hippo would be very happy to have Roserade around to absorb Toxic Spikes, a luxury he doesn't always enjoy!

Just a thought. Great RMT, thanks for posting it.
 
Chou Toshio said:
tumblr_mqb3vxvk1M1r5fhkdo1_500.gif


Hi All.

So I basically don't exist as a Smogonite or Pokemon Player in recent years; though I like to watch FSG and BKC, and have been tuning into some of the big channels recently just to see the wacky adventures of Joey and Blunder in early Gen 9. But I was surprised when my brainless laddering and auto-pilot tweaking recently went on a bit of a streak and suddenly found myself in Top 10 5 on the ladder. I thought, "Alright, maybe this is worth sharing then" especially to highlight the EPIC POWER of Choice Skarf Skarmory lead, and 3 Choice Scarfers, yes THREE in Total.

Here's the team:
Skarmory
Tyranitar
Swampert
Rotom-H
Roserade
Lucario

Pretty much the whole team evolved out of thinking about the Lead Meta Game, and deciding that I wanted to give Choice Skarf Skarmory a chance. More on that below, but starting from that assumption, the team would be a Hazard-setting Semi-Stall team looking to use defensive synergy to quickly set up hazards and spread passive damage while quickly shifting to capitalize on that with offense. This is actually the 2nd time I've reached Top 10 with the concept, earlier versions focusing on a late game Flygon Sweep and greater focus on surprise Mid-Game Wall-Breaking; but I found this version to be much more consistent and satisfying to play; more fail-safes against the many threats in the meta.


500px-227Skarmory.png

Skarmory @ Choice Scarf (AKA Smogon Bird 0.4)
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 80 HP / 252 Atk / 176 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Sleep Talk
- Spikes
- Whirlwind

I've tried a whole bunch of leads, but I keep coming back to this guy because he's just sooo much fun, and so useful. I've got a detailed set post here->
The basic premise is that Skarmory outruns Azelf and all leads slower than it and sets up Spikes off the bat. It screws all the Trick-Scarf leads, it Brave Birds Rose into the ground, it absorbs Sleep from Sleep leads, and sometimes gives Machamp a good spank if you feel like going that route. Skarf Skarm's got a nice set of matchups and interestingly, I've found its weaknesses as a lead can almost all be fixed by switches into Tyranitar. (Against Aero, Brave Bird once as it Taunts then switch to Choice Luke or Swampert to deal with it). Every lead has weaknesses, but this one is pretty consistent overall on the current ladder.

But the beauty of Skarmory is that it's not done after that. It starts off with very consistent spike setting, but it gets surprise kills in the mid game with its speed and powerful Brave Bird. If it makes it to the late game, it can sweep. If it does any one of these 3 things it's already paid for itself, and if it did all 3 you probably won the whole game.

Skarmory has only 1 Base Attack less than Talon Flame, has a speed stat better than TTar (one of DPP's best skarfers), and unlike Honchkrow or Staraptor has SR neutrality and Sand immunity. It's useful at every stage in the game, and if you think of it as a suicide lead/offensive pivot, it does a lot of work. Gen 6 taught us that Smogon Bird wins as long as it's alive and faster, and that concept works surprisingly well for Skarmory battering teams with 252 Brave Birds, laughing at sand and hazards, and swagging into battle surprisingly often with its decent bulk and resistances. Unlike Defensive Skarm this mon isn't a king of walling, but its a jack of sooooooo many trades and it's mostly trading up (on kills against your opponent).

Major defensive roles: First line of defense/sleep absorb against Breloom; it is a check against Gengar, when you can switch into a predicted Shadow Ball and kill it if it has small prior damage; it is a temporary road block to a Flygon Sweep, and check/Revenge Killer against most Fighting types (including hilariously, Infernape— with this often being an Infernape lure). It is also something Lucario and Scizor must take into account before going for a late game SD Sweep-- Skarmory must be sufficiently weakened, and/or they must have sufficient health to survive a full ATK Brave Bird. Even on its last legs, Skarm can switch in and click whirlwind to prevent a setup sweeper from getting a second turns of setup. With 2 other Choice Skarfers, that's often enough to keep the game in play.


500px-248Tyranitar.png

Tyranitar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Superpower
- Pursuit
- Crunch
- Stone Edge

Skarmory's partner in crime, Tyranitar and Skarm make a Scarf'd offensive-defensive core, both surprisingly fast, surprisingly strong, surprisingly bulky, and spreading passive damage backing each other up; with Skarm being some physical buffering and Tyranitar bring the Special Defensive buffering. Neither is a long-term solution to offensive threats, but with aggression, passive damage, and the speed of Skarf, they both use defense to out-race the opponent in the offensive battle. TTar works with Skarm on its lead matchups, breaking sashes and attacking against leads that Taunted Skarm or are not likely to run from it or finishing off opponents that were brought down to sash by Brave Bird.

Major defensive roles: Most critical is picking off Starmie of course, the most competent Rapid Spinner and the one that threatens Rotom-H the most. Is part of a multi-check system of checks against Special Attackers, notably Zapdos, Heatran, Latias, Gengar, and even not-scarf/non-mach Infernape. Sand is critically important passive damage, and this team would have even more trouble with mons like Zapdos and Suicune without getting rid of their lefties. In a Pinch, Superpower is helpful against Clefable if something happened to Lucario. If Clefable did not exist, I would probably run Earthquake for extra insurance against Jirachi. Depending on the matchup, Tyranitar and Skarm are probably your best Knock Off absorbers.


220px-479Rotom-Heat.png

Rotom-Heat @ Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Def / 220 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Will-O-Wisp
- Discharge
- Rest

Spin Blocker and 2nd offensive physical tank after Skarm. Rotom's #1 job is to work to keep hazards up, but it also works with Skarm to keep Machamp leads in check, and is a critical offensive-defensive check to many physical attackers. Really, Rotom is irreplaceable and having such a good spin blocker so good at making progress is part of what makes this team possible.

Major defensive roles: Ev'd to Outspeed Breloom, this is my 2nd Breloom Check, but it is also a critical piece of my game plans against Machamp, Gyarados, Metagross, Bronzong, Scizor, Swampert, Lucario, and is a (very) soft check to Jirachi. It's so flexible, its always doing something, and even when all it does is Burn a TTar and get taken down simultaneously (which isn't often--often it is watching TTar dye as it survives to fight again with Rest by the skin of its teeth), that means less pressure on Skarm, Swampert, and Luke to deal with the rest.

500px-260Swampert.png

Swampert @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Ice Beam
- Earthquake
- Roar
- Stealth Rock

My 3rd Physical defensive tank after Skarm and Rotom. Swampert's job is to set up Stealth Rocks, be an all-purpose defensive check, Phaze to spread damage and keep us in the game, and make sure I don't lose to Iron Head spam Jirachi. Having 2 Phazers between this and Skarm is also critical in staying on top of the game's flow with so many Choice'd Pokemon. Pretty standard set without need of a lot of explanation, but definitely a lynchpin of the team.

Defensive Role: Counter everything. lol, an exchaggeration but not by much. Swampert's kind of a catch-all to most of the meta, just have to be careful not to task it with too much; which is why the rest of the team shares so many critical defensive-offensive tasks. All of them make Swampert more robust, and it makes all of them more robust, because none are hard walls. When playing Pert though, you need to especially protect and lean on other teammates to take the lead if you suspect Flygon, Dragonite, or physical Jirachi are going to be major threats in a game; because Pert plays a critical defensive role against those. Opinion: BAN JIRACHI



500px-407Roserade.png

Roserade @ Black Sludge
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 72 SpD / 188 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic Spikes
- Leaf Storm
- Extrasensory
- Aromatherapy

Roserade is a real swiss army knife of utility here, but the primary role of this slot is as a Cleric. Getting rid of status is something we dramatically underrated when DPP was present gen imo, and on this team the ability to heal off Thunder Waves and Will-o-Wisps is huge when relying on this many offensive Skarfers. It takes off some of the pressure to predict, and means throwing out Yellow Color and escaping on a full para does NOT let Starmie or Latias get free rein. Aromatherapy also gives Rest Rotom multiple chances to get back in the game even after it's used its Lum Berry and can turn a Skarm slept by Breloom into a late potential Late Game sweeper (being careful about your timing and Sleep Clause of course). Also, if your Swampert gets any Burn or Poison AND there is a non-zero chance your opponent has Jirachi, you MUST protect Rose until you can make a safe spot for it to guarantee the aromatherapy and bring Swampert back in the game or you will lose— at least you have that out. Ban Jirachi!

Aside from being a Cleric, Rose is also my 2nd offensive Special Tank after TTar and works with TTAr to soft-check special threats. I've tried both Blissey and Clefable in this slot to varying degrees of success, but found Rose works better for this team primarily for being a 3rd Breloom Check and resisting Gengar's Focus Blast— so I have 2 Shadow Ball switch-ins and here’s a Focus Blast switch-in also neutral to Ghost. Also Black Sludge and good Sp.A and Speed make Rose much less of a target for Trick-Scarf in general, but Rose’s style and Natural Cure make it as reliable a Gengar switch-in as you’ll find.

The other moves are aimed at Progress. Leaf Storm is the main offensive move and helps against Water Types, while Extra Sensory is specifically for Breloom & Gengar in 1 slot. Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, and Hidden Power Ground all having their tested merits as well, but I've found Leaf Storm and Extra Sensory as the best 2 move combination. Not as offensive coverage but because Rose needs attacks only to hit specific targets that tend to stay in on Roserade or need killing no matter what. Gengar, Breloom, Suicune and Starmie are such threats that are often arrogant enough to stay in and just need to be killed somehow. On turns where you’re sure they’re switching out and you need to make progress, throwing out Toxic Spikes is usually better than hoping for results from Rose’s attacks. I never prioritize them, they’re more luxury than necessity, but I found it better than Sludge Bomb+Pray for Poison for ensuring Rose can make progress in the early game when the opponent is likely to switch. Sleep Powder I've tested, but was just too unreliable and unnecessary; especially with all the other status options this team thrown out, Rose was better when given higher reliability in specific narrow scenarios (KILL THAT GENGAR!!) rather than trying to use a blanket check unreliable sleep move.

Major defensive roles: Soft check on most special attackers, especially specially bulky Waters against which it can make progress with Toxic Spikes, or change momentum with Aromatherapy. Speed EVs allow you to outspeed Jolly Breloom and smack it with Extra Sensory, with this being my THIRD Breloom check. (Yes, you need 3 of them, and sometimes even then you still get swept by it-- BAN BRELOOM). Works with TTar and Skarm to check Gengar (3 is not needed, but definitely you need 2 checks for Gengar, 3 is better).

500px-448Lucario.png

Lucario @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
- Copycat

Skarf Luke's late game Sweep is what makes this whole team work. This is what all the hazards, and sand, and phazing and status is all building up to. Big Luke beating everything into the ground is the payoff (with Skarmory Sweep as a backup plan). If you're playing this team and both Luke and Skarm are dead, you probably fucked up. STAB Close Combat and that speed is so devastating, and sand immunity, ExtremeSpeed/Bullet Punch resists, and ability to reliably deal with both +1 Gyara and Dragonite all make Luke the awesome scarfer we know it as. But honestly, for me the biggest reason to choose this over Flygon or even Jirachi, is Inner Focus. Thats's right, being a 3rd line of defense against Iron Head Jirachi (4th if you count Skarmory) is really why we go with Luke. BAN JIRACHI

Major defensive roles: Outspeed and kill Tyranitar, Dragonite & Gyarados at +1. Revenge kill Heatran and soft check most offensive mons. Don't care about Trick Jirachi's Iron Head Flinch and finish it off with help from Spikes and your teammates. Only guaranteed kill button against Clefable. BAN CLEFABLE.



And that's the team! Hope you all enjoy, and maybe one day I'll open a tourney replay and see Choice Scarf Skarmory.
Also ban Breloom, Clefable, and Jirachi, joking not joking.

Replays
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1716877466-sevg7id507i6lecdq0gq6z8rulnoekrpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1703667988
Click to expand...

Hi!

I can see why you feel like Breloom should be banned using this team, as I feel like you took all of the team’s ways of dealing with it and made them different sets.

Spikes offense is a great style in dpp, I’m not surprised you found success w it on the ladder. However, your team’s core is a little odd to me. I don’t get why rose is here instead of Latias, either specs or a defensive set. You don’t really have anything that takes advantage of tspikes other than maybe rotom trying to wear down tar. Tspikes absorb is nice, but feels too rare in the current meta to justify over Latias. Lati also gives you a giant amount of defensive help: loom, tran, waters, breaking even if you use specs. I also think you don’t quite have the offense to break through defensive teams, especially w the recent discoveries w copycat luke (I know this was posted before that). Skarm will get worn down, pert is a great spikes abuser but needs a more offensive set imo, and I suppose your rotom set could work but feels a bit counter productive in sand.

I think this team is a great sounding board to reinventing the style in light of copycat scarf luke no longer repeatedly phazing around. I personally would use a physically defensive skarm, but w your set, I think we can go in 2 directions:
  1. We just go all out offense. Skarm is an HO spiker and just aims to get up immediately, similar to a set w sash Lum or a resistance berry. The rest of the team goes super offensive to account w that
  2. We go a bulkier spikes offense route, more similar to what you have now. I really would recommend a different Skarm set, but keeping the spirit of the team it might work.
If we go in w 1, I think the first change you should make is scarf luke -> agility luke. Agility luke loves hazards and can give you a nice sweeper to help w offenses. Another change I like is rose -> choice specs lati, modest or timid works, as your defensive core is prob gonna be not great. I would also change rotom to a scarf set (any forme works, honestly, but Id make sure I have hp ice, cause dnite looks annoying), and make tar Dragon dance (Lum dd crunch Fire punch eq jolly max max). Instead of trapping star, you set up on it and try to sweep w tar and luke. You also could go w a more offensive pert, but I actually like your pert set on that style, gives you some backbone.

if you go the second option, the main changes I would make are again rose -> lati, but this time a defensive set (bold max hp a shitload of defense enough speed for ada luke). You can play w the coverage, but mainly it needs roar and recover, the rest is up to you. You could also try cm two attacks, but try a defensive set first. The next change ID recommend is ID use a more standard defensive set on rotom: either resttalk or pain split, as your tar’s sand really ruins your rotom set against more offensive teams. Your set might work through. I’d really recommend a different skarm set, so you can move off of using scarf luke to back stop you. If you are willing to go w a physically defensive skarm, you have more flexibility w your last slot and your Pert’s set. If you keep rocks on pert, I’d switch to an offensive set (rocks waterfall eq ice punch, max attack adamant). I’d then change luke to a Jirachi: offensive calm Mind/mixed w shuca to give you some backup against dd mons. You COULD potentially throw rocks on it to really unlock pert. If you do ( idk if it’ll work), you could throw focus punch on pert to really turn up the pressure on stall, or refresh to totally annoy tran w/o hp grass.

to recap:

team 1: scarf skarm / dd tar / specs lati / fat pert / scarf rotom w hp ice agility luke

team 2: scarf skarm (or phys def) / scarf tar / defensive lati (or cm dpulse hp Fire recover w enough speed for +Spe mixgon) / your rotom set or a more defensive one / offensive pert / mixed or offensive cm rachi

best of luck! Great to see the older guard back.
 
johnnyg2 said:
Hi!

I can see why you feel like Breloom should be banned using this team, as I feel like you took all of the team’s ways of dealing with it and made them different sets.

Spikes offense is a great style in dpp, I’m not surprised you found success w it on the ladder. However, your team’s core is a little odd to me. I don’t get why rose is here instead of Latias, either specs or a defensive set. You don’t really have anything that takes advantage of tspikes other than maybe rotom trying to wear down tar. Tspikes absorb is nice, but feels too rare in the current meta to justify over Latias. Lati also gives you a giant amount of defensive help: loom, tran, waters, breaking even if you use specs. I also think you don’t quite have the offense to break through defensive teams, especially w the recent discoveries w copycat luke (I know this was posted before that). Skarm will get worn down, pert is a great spikes abuser but needs a more offensive set imo, and I suppose your rotom set could work but feels a bit counter productive in sand.

I think this team is a great sounding board to reinventing the style in light of copycat scarf luke no longer repeatedly phazing around. I personally would use a physically defensive skarm, but w your set, I think we can go in 2 directions:
  1. We just go all out offense. Skarm is an HO spiker and just aims to get up immediately, similar to a set w sash Lum or a resistance berry. The rest of the team goes super offensive to account w that
  2. We go a bulkier spikes offense route, more similar to what you have now. I really would recommend a different Skarm set, but keeping the spirit of the team it might work.
If we go in w 1, I think the first change you should make is scarf luke -> agility luke. Agility luke loves hazards and can give you a nice sweeper to help w offenses. Another change I like is rose -> choice specs lati, modest or timid works, as your defensive core is prob gonna be not great. I would also change rotom to a scarf set (any forme works, honestly, but Id make sure I have hp ice, cause dnite looks annoying), and make tar Dragon dance (Lum dd crunch Fire punch eq jolly max max). Instead of trapping star, you set up on it and try to sweep w tar and luke. You also could go w a more offensive pert, but I actually like your pert set on that style, gives you some backbone.

if you go the second option, the main changes I would make are again rose -> lati, but this time a defensive set (bold max hp a shitload of defense enough speed for ada luke). You can play w the coverage, but mainly it needs roar and recover, the rest is up to you. You could also try cm two attacks, but try a defensive set first. The next change ID recommend is ID use a more standard defensive set on rotom: either resttalk or pain split, as your tar’s sand really ruins your rotom set against more offensive teams. Your set might work through. I’d really recommend a different skarm set, so you can move off of using scarf luke to back stop you. If you are willing to go w a physically defensive skarm, you have more flexibility w your last slot and your Pert’s set. If you keep rocks on pert, I’d switch to an offensive set (rocks waterfall eq ice punch, max attack adamant). I’d then change luke to a Jirachi: offensive calm Mind/mixed w shuca to give you some backup against dd mons. You COULD potentially throw rocks on it to really unlock pert. If you do ( idk if it’ll work), you could throw focus punch on pert to really turn up the pressure on stall, or refresh to totally annoy tran w/o hp grass.

to recap:

team 1: scarf skarm / dd tar / specs lati / fat pert / scarf rotom w hp ice agility luke

team 2: scarf skarm (or phys def) / scarf tar / defensive lati (or cm dpulse hp Fire recover w enough speed for +Spe mixgon) / your rotom set or a more defensive one / offensive pert / mixed or offensive cm rachi

best of luck! Great to see the older guard back.
Click to expand...

Woah, thanks man! These are awesome ideas to try. I think the idea of Latias > Roserade is great, and now that you've pointed it out I'm wracking my brain to think of any good reason not to switch. I probably just didn't think about it b/c of some unexplainable anti-Latias biases. I mean it's Pursuit Weak, but then Rose is so frail it might as well be. And Latias has better power, better bulk, better speed, a stab that kills breloom, and even Heal Bell if I was dying to keep a cleric. And if Specs Sleep Talk to smash that Breloom regardless lolz

I guess the only real thing is no Shadow Ball weakness vs Gengar, but I got to take advantage of being forced to use Crunch on Luke somehow lol.

I'll definitely have to look at the sets you recommended when I revisit DPP (Post Christmas my Mons' time has hard shifted to playing in-game Violet with my kids since it's their first Mons game and suddenly Dad is super cool-- that'll probably be the case in the foreseeable future)

To be revisited with new energy from these suggestions, when my kids and Showdown players have gotten enough through the SV new toy syndrome for me and the DPP ladder to get some oxygen again.

But I think I'll still hate Breloom regardless; I've never not hated it even back in the Garchomp meta. lol
 
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Shedinja-43152 said:
Ban Jirachi should happens if we banned all legendary/mythical pokémons; But if we do that, don't make any sense to have a pokémon as Wobuffet banned on OU...

That's serious? What the problem with Clefable? It is as other Blissey.
Click to expand...
1. The reason many people want Jirachi to be banned is because Iron Head (60% flinch rate thanks) can swing pretty much any matchup if Jirachi gets lucky enough. This is further compounded by it spreading paralysis with Body Slam and Thunder Wave. It can simply hax its way through most pokemon that beat it on paper, which people find unfair.
See this thread for further details: OU - DPP OU Metagame Discussion Thread | Page 3 | Smogon Forums
2. Clefable is immune to entry hazards, which makes it hard to reliably break through for many teams. For further details, refer to the thread linked above.
 
Basically the biggest problem with Clefable is—

with the vast majority of Pokemon there is a way to force progress against them. Pursuit weak Pokemon are easy to force. Steels can be trapped by Magnezone. Every Pokémon that takes hazard damage can have progress forced against them just by forcing switches. Even passive resilient Pokémon like Lucario or Flygon either don’t carry recovery or have weaknesses and frailty that prevent them from immortality. Flygon can run away from Latias, but Draco Meteoring most things forces progress.

With Clefable hazards don’t work, it has the bulk to require 3HKo or better from most attacks, cannot be reliably Pursuit Trapped, and has only 1 punishable weakness in Fighting— but fighting mons are not especially resilient to passive damage, are not built to win a switching hide-and-seek war with Clefable. They take spikes, most are hit by sand, and don’t have healing. While non-stab fighting moves will often fail to be strong enough.
 
milotic-f.png


One idea is that Milotic could work over Swampert. You lose SR but you can move that to Skarmory over Whirlwind since you now have Haze on Milotic. In my opinion Whirlwind isn't that effective on stopping set-up sweepers on your Skarmory because unfortunately it has negative priority so it goes against your Scarf, not to mention you have minimal bulk investment on it. If a sweeper is already set-up it likely has a high change to KO or heavily damage your Skarmory before it has the chance to blow them away. If you absolutely want Whirlwind for phazing, then perhaps sticking SR over one of Tar's moves that you use the least could work. I used to have SR on a Scarf Tar and it was pretty easy to get rocks up. Just come in on someone he scares out, like Heatran and just SR on the switch. Another benefit of SR on a Scarf Tar is that if you use it early-on most players wouldn't suspect your Tar to be Scarfed since SR on a choice'd mon is counter-intuitive (instead they probably assume a berry as the item), which would allow you to net a surprise kill later on in the match when they don't expect to be outsped.

On the other hand Milotic's Haze can stop set-up sweepers (CroCune, Gyarados that you mentioned) and also has a ton of PP to go through during PP wars. On top of that Milotic gets reliable recovery so it will stick around longer than Swampert. Lastly a niche situation is that Milotic isn't 4x weak to Grass like Swampert is, so in a pinch situation it can take a Seed Bomb from Breloom and retalliate with an Ice Beam. Might be worth a test!
 
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