Shift

[Stratos]

This thread will be moderated to keep discussion focused
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Shift: it's pretty fucked up

As of current, it does this:
[box]Shift: A Pokemon may use the Shift command on an adjacent allied Pokemon in any multi-battle format. Shift switches the position of the Pokemon using it and its target without interfering with the target's actions. Shift cannot fail due to Taunt, cannot be Disabled, cannot be Encored, and cannot be interacted with by any other move that would otherwise prevent it from taking place.

Command Type: Universal | Accuracy: -- | Energy Cost: 5 | Priority: 0 | CT: Deferring[/box]

Let's discuss what to do about this command—do we want to keep it, change it, or completely remove it? Feel free to throw out any and all ideas—I'm providing some below, but they are by no means the limit for discussion.

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It's basically a universal ally switch that's virtually drawback-free if you go before your opponent, and as it doesn't fall under the P/E class, that's pretty screwed up. however, i'm pretty sure it was maintained to keep precedence with the in-game triples command. The obvious difference here being almost all asb battles are positioning-off (though positioning-on can exist!) As of now, there are three possible solutions I can see here.

1)[box]A Pokemon may use the Shift command on an adjacent allied Pokemon in any multi-battle format (triples or larger) with enabled positioning. Shift switches the position of the Pokemon using it and its target without interfering with the target's actions. Shift cannot fail due to Taunt, cannot be Disabled, cannot be Encored, and cannot be interacted with by any other move that would otherwise prevent it from taking place.[/box]

this is still pretty strong, as if you're ordering second, it has the chance to screw over an opponent who decided to focus-fire one of your pokemon. You could argue that it's 'something you have to think about,' though, and I'd be fine with that. if we go down this road, i'd be in favor of a pretty big hike on the energy cost.

2)[box]A Pokemon may use the Shift command on an adjacent allied Pokemon in any multi-battle format (triples or larger) with enabled positioning. Shift switches the position of the Pokemon using it and its target without interfering with the target's actions. Shift cannot fail due to Taunt, cannot be Disabled, cannot be Encored, and cannot be interacted with by any other move that would otherwise prevent it from taking place. Shift can only be used on the last action of a round.[/box]

this one is basically mimicking how it works in-game. If we do this, I think we're giving shift a pretty moderate power level—capable of doing some damage to an opponent, but not capable of completely wrecking them. and since positioning=on, you have to be willing to commit to the change, instead of just using it as an ally switch. mostly will be useful for actually, well, shifting.

3) Do something where we introduce to positioning=on matches a 'Shift Phase,' which would act kind of like a switch phase. This would need to be hammered out pretty well. It's less true to the exact implementation of shifting in-game, but more true to the spirit, and doesn't give you the opportunity to fuck your opponent over with a switch.

 

[Gerard]

I support option 1 Because:

A) Position On matches are few and far in between

B) Unless your target completely opposed to you (as in you're in the far right and you're over the far left) you're still capable of hitting your target, if your target is in front of you or you're in the middle you're still gonna be able to hit whatever you're aiming for without caring about any change in the positions

C) Earthquake, Heat Wave, Surf, etc...... (aka, the moves everyone in triples+ is spamming like there's no tomorrow) don't care about position, so shift changes nothing about them except for the times where there are more than three targets (and even then you're still hitting 3 of the opposing mons)

So I support a slight nerf and an energy cost around 7 or 8 though I want clarification over and cannot be interacted with by any other move that would otherwise prevent it from taking place, does this includes confusion and flinch like moves or just moves which primary effect would not be blocked by shield dust?

 

[ZhengTann]

The phrase "cannot be interacted with by any other move that would otherwise prevent it from taking place" probably means something along the lines of "cannot be blocked or disrupted directly by the opponent". Use Block as you would against an opponent using an Evasive move? Fail. Torment it so that it cannot Shift the next round? Fail. etc. etc. Things like that, considering that the phrase shares the same sentence with Disable, Encore, and Taunt. If we want, we could make it so that if you happen to hit yourself due to confusion, your Switch fails - but more feedback is better on this issue.

Aside from that, I support Option 1 as well. Do remember that aside from multi-target moves, there are also single-target moves that hit the intended target regardless of positioning (Hurricane comes to mind, even out of rain), so Switch is not overblown deadly. Gerard's 3 reasoning stands as well, so yeah, I doubt Switch is going to be a "Haha I'm unstoppable Switching my Lanturn with my Colossoil in on your Hydro Pumps" kinda move.

I'm still kind of neutral over whether we should nerf / buff though. If you want a "it ain't broke, don't fix it" mindset, then we could just keep it as it is. If you want a "let's try and see how good we can make it without breaking it" attitude, I don't think we can improve it without knowing firsthand how bad it is.

 

[Objection]

C) Earthquake, Heat Wave, Surf, etc...... (aka, the moves everyone in triples+ is spamming like there's no tomorrow) don't care about position, so shift changes nothing about them except for the times where there are more than three targets (and even then you're still hitting 3 of the opposing mons)

This isn't entirely true. Moves like Earthquake and Surf hit all adjacent pokemon. When positioning is off, that's the same as hitting all pokemon. When positioning is on and the user of Earthquake or Surf is on, say, the left, it means all the pokemon on the right won't be hit by the move. It's a similar story with moves like Rock Slide and Heat Wave. There are a few exceptions such as Struggle Bug and Lava Plume.

 

[Stratos]

B) Unless your target completely opposed to you (as in you're in the far right and you're over the far left) you're still capable of hitting your target, if your target is in front of you or you're in the middle you're still gonna be able to hit whatever you're aiming for without caring about any change in the positions

attacks are based on positions, not targets. a fast shift is effectively an ally switch that lasts the whole round—which has MASSIVE potential to fuck you over. in addition to obj's comments addressing multi-hit moves above, you can see how shift would be incredibly powerful in all positioning=on matches, redirecting all single-target attacks and even some multi-target at the cost of five energy. that's why i'd support option 2 over option 1—it's not overly complex, but it makes shift more useful for actually, well, shifting, than for dodging attacks.

 

[Gerard]

My mistake though that means you have to be on the side and your intended target must be in the middle in order for it to shift effectively, also remember one of you needs to be faster than your opponent (unless you have prankster)

A list of all attacks that damage a target regardless of position: All Flying attacks, Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, Dragon Pulse and Water Pulse along with Priority moves thanks to the 0 priority of the command

Except Ally Switch also should last the whole round but it's made so that the Pokemon can only dodge for one action so this would follow the same principle, also if position and not targets are what you're targeting then why is it that Shift is unusable in doubles when you have as much a position as triples?

 

[Stratos]

if position and not targets are what you're targeting then why is it that Shift is unusable in doubles when you have as much a position as triples?

well that's what we're trying to fix here; as of current, if i focus fire'd my opponent's flying type with electric attacks in doubles and then their colossoil used shift i would do 0 damage the whole round. However, shift shouldn't even have an effect in doubles, since it's meant to mirror in-game shift

The Pokémon on the left and right have the option to 'shift'. This option allows the user to switch with the Pokémon currently in the middle. Shifting has no priority and none of the effects of switching apply to shifting. A Pokémon can move even if it is the last Pokémon on its team, but once in the center, it cannot move anywhere else. If the center Pokémon is readying to use a move on a certain target, but is then shifted before using its move, its attack will fail if the target is then outside of its range. When there are only two Pokémon left on the field and they are non-adjacent to each other, both Pokémon will automatically be shifted to the center of the field.

now i don't know if you want to fix ally switch—i personally think a round is too much switch time—but this isn't the thread for that

 

[Gerard]

No, I was pointing that following your logic that position is the target that Ally Swith should do the same yet the move itself sais how it only dodges for 1 attack not the whole round which should apply to shift all the same

 

[Stratos]

oh. i see now, your proposal is the following:

[box]A Pokemon may use the Shift command on an adjacent allied Pokemon in any multi-battle format (triples or larger) with enabled positioning. Shift switches the position of the Pokemon using it and its target without interfering with the target's actions. Shift cannot fail due to Taunt, cannot be Disabled, cannot be Encored, and cannot be interacted with by any other move that would otherwise prevent it from taking place. Attacks directed at the user or target of Shift that were not used on the same action as Shift will be redirected to hit the Pokemon they were targetting, if possible.[/box]

honestly, i highly doubt we're getting a better solution than that one, thanks gerard

 

[Stratos]

looks like this thread needs a 24 hour warning. Prospective slate is as follows:
[box]What should be done to Shift?

Nothing
Remove Shift
Add a clause that says "Shift may only be used in positioning=on triples or higher battles."
Add the above clause, and one that says "Attacks directed at the user or target of Shift that were not used on the same action as Shift will be automatically redirected to hit their intended target, if possible."
Add the positioning=on clause, and one that says "Shift may only be used on the last action of a round."[/box]

 

[Stratos]

closing~