Series 8 Viability Rankings

[yuki]

Art by Dybala Jr, big thanks to them!
​

These are the official Viability Rankings for VGC Series 8. In this thread, we as a community will be ranking each and every usable pokemon into different tiers based on how viable we believe them to be. We encourage you to post your thoughts and opinions on on the various usable Pokemon in VGC and what tier you think they should belong in. Posts in this thread will be taken into consideration when deciding changes to the VR.

The general idea of this is to rank every usable Pokemon in VGC into different rankings that will go in descending order. Since we are evaluating the entirety of the metagame, we will not be splitting Pokemon based on their roles within teams - supportive and offensive Pokemon will be ranked based on their impact that they have on the meta and the teams they will be brought for. For example, a Pokemon like Incineroar will be ranked highly for its supportive presence and Kartana for its offensive presence. While these examples are definitely present in the current Viability Rankings, as the metagame progresses and evolves so do Pokemon's utility and viability, so the Council will approach this with an open mind as we move forward. We have also included a preliminary D rank, which is exclusive to every other technically usable restricted Pokemon (without being ridiculous with Cosmog).

Finally, there will be a Council of experienced players who will discuss and vote on the ranking of each Pokemon. As the Series tend to be fairly short, we will be attempting to keep this up-to-date based on what's going on in the tournament scene and adapting our list based on both tournament results and ladder success as the metagame evolves. Keep in mind, your posts and insights are still very valuable to us and will be a factor in any changes that we make. This thread would be nothing without the community and all of your input, so if you feel you have a good grasp on the metagame and fully understand the forum rules, then don't be hesitant to post.

Your VR Council:
Netherious
Raineko
zeefable
Jashsmash
Grandmas Cookin
DomarpVGC
Arekusabi

VGC Series 8 Viability Rankings:

S Rank: Reserved for the metagame's absolute best Pokemon.

S Rank

Incineroar
Regieleki
Venusaur
Zacian-Crowned

A Rank: Pokemon that are strong and common in the metagame, albeit less dominant than the S rank.

A+ Rank
Grimmsnarl
Groudon
Kyogre
Thundurus

A Rank
Calyrex-Shadow
Coalossal
Charizard
Dragapult
Landorus-Therian
Porygon2
Torkoal

A- Rank

Calyrex-Ice
Indeedee-F
Palkia
Urshifu-S
Whimsicott
Zapdos


B Rank: Pokemon that are less effective in the current metagame for a variety of reasons, but still work well on certain teams.

B+ Rank
Amoonguss
Ferrothorn
Gothitelle
Kartana
Kyurem-White
Metagross
Mimikyu
Lapras
Tapu Fini
Tornadus
Umbreon
Yveltal

B Rank

Cinderace
Mamoswine
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Rillaboom
Rotom-Heat
Rotom-Wash
Urshifu-R


B- Rank

Clefairy
Dialga
Entei
Glastrier
Kingdra
Mienshao
Moltres-Galar
Raichu
Sableye
Solgaleo
Spectrier



C Rank: Pokemon that have some niche usage in the format, but often need the support of their teammates to function or are very limited in what they can achieve.

Dracovish
Dusclops
Lugia
Zygarde
Comfey
Ditto
Eternatus
Gastrodon
Ho-Oh
Nihilego
Pheromosa
Indeedee
Registeel
Tapu Koko
Tyranitar
Togekiss
Volcarona
Xerneas


D Rank: Pokemon here are only restricted in name. If you're arguing for these to receive a shift up to higher tiers, please show some replays, tournament results, and team archetypes that they can function successfully on.
D Rank
Calyrex
Giratina
Giratina-Origin
Kyurem
Kyurem-Black
Lunala
Mewtwo
Necrozma
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Zamazenta-C
Zekrom

 

[smogon account]

Dialga, Kyogre: S -> A+

I don't know if we're like, setting a new standard for S tier mons, but compare these three to the xerns of seasons past. They don't compare at all in terms of sheer format gravitation, although Kyogre does admittedly get close. And Incin is still arguably a tier above these just because it does it all. Swiss Army Cat.

Zacian-C: S -> A

I'm skeptical of zacian belonging in S tier when it can't even dynamax. The format is full of good offensive steels and the only thing really setting zacian apart is its amazing speed tier, which accounts for little when every other team has regieleki.

Amoongus: A+ -> A

Speaking as a Kyogre abuser, Amoonguss is so useless. It's a grass type, but it's so passive this series. It's nowhere near the same tier as rillaboom and eleki are as a check to kyogre and I've seen it get a spore off once in all my ladder matches.

Regieleki: A+ -> S

This could still be my Kyogre bias showing, but eleki always puts so much pressure on the opponent as a lead. With new sets and spreads starting to pop up, including dynamax options, it's so insanely hard to play around and imo just the best option for speed control in the format, because it's still providing that offensive pressure through electrowebs.

Rillaboom: A -> A+

This could still be my Kyogre bias showing, but rilla always puts so much pressure on the opponent as a lead. With new sets and spreads starting to pop up, including dynamax options, it's so insanely hard to play around and imo just the best option for a Kyogre check in the format, because it's still providing that offensive pressure through Grassy Glide.

S -> A

While definitely not as egregious of a blemish on the S rank as Zacian, I take issue with Dialga being here as well. Currently, Dialga teams rely on throwing a bunch of somewhat Pokemon together, proccing your Weakness Policy and setting screens, and hoping you pull TornOgre for as many games as you possibly can. Dialga has a very noticeable lack of raw power, so it has to use Roar of Time to make itself useful for Dragon-type STAB. This means you often find yourself wishing to max Dialga and pop the WP, something so obvious your opponent can see it and take their precious time planning their outs against you in team preview if they haven't already gotten the matchup down yet. No spread moves either, and Speed control options like Tornadus and Whimsicott feel especially clunky with it, leaving it to rot in the base 90 tier. It's a no from me.

I still think Dialga deserves A+ *for now* because historically a rating is more about their current strength and not about their strength in equilibrium. If Dialga is only A+ because it gets paired against windogre every match, then it deserves A+ regardless.



...
oh yeah one more

Cherrim: Unranked -> A-
stop using venusaur when this exists
you may not like it but this is peak performance


----

Some more A rank/B+ changes after some more ladder

Calyrex-Ice, Groudon -> A- -> A

While both of these restricts have clear weaknesses, with Intimidate and burn doing a number on their damage output, those weaknesses are easy to account for with pokemon like Milotic, Thundurus, or Tapu Fini. Both pokemon just shred through teams quickly, and while they're too reliant on specific teams I think they're powerful enough in those teams to merit an A rank. A+ feels too high for sure.

Moltres-Galar, Xerneas, Venusaur -> A- -> B+

I've been seeing less and less Moltres as it continues to prove it can't provide the necessary damage output to act as a Yveltal at home. It's still very good, but building it always has so much tension between bulk and damage, and while it was able to walk on that tightrope without restricteds, it's starting to fall every now and then. Xerneas has been dethroned and even support from Indeedee isn't enough to let it survive the overpowering spread attacks in the meta. Venusaur is such a waste of a dynamax when Rillaboom does more damage without needing to max and just doesn't belong on Groudon teams at all. It's a fast sleep setter, and that's all it'll ever be. With most birds starting to carry goggles, Venusaur is just out of a job. I think it even will end up belonging below B+ but time will tell.

Charizard B+ -> A

This thing, on the other hand, is such a powerful dynamax and imo is one of the reasons to look toward Groudon in the first place. It's over-reliant on sun, but so long as the sun is up, nothing can touch Charizard, especially with goggles baiting many Venusaurs into clicking sleep powder, after which you just Airstream and clean up shop. Sure, it's poor into Kyogre if they out-position you, but it's not at all poor into Kyogre's supporting cast. At the moment I don't think the weather reliance of Charizard is enough to keep it out of the A tiers.

Tapu Fini, Windorus B+ -> A-

Agree with Zee on Tapu Fini, but I don't think even Calm Mind sets are that bad all things considered. My main worry is that Fini still struggles into Rillaboom, Regieleki, Kartana, and the like, so if the meta shifts away from those mons I could support A for Fini. Windorus is a threatening support in conjunction with Kyogre and introduces a level of WIFOM with Taunt and Tailwind. Trick Room as an archetype is largely being forced out due to the prevalence of Windorus and Kyogre, as the amount of support required to play around Prankster Taunt takes too much of a toll on teambuilding. Check that sick alliteration, I'm spitting fire.

 

[yuki]

I guess seeing as everyone else is doing it, I may as well chip in. Obviously, I also voted on this so I'm gonna basically cover the things I didn't agree with.

A+ -> A
This stupid mushroom.... This thing is nowhere near as splashable as it used to be. Safety Goggles has become such a ubiquitous item in this generation, and it's barely able to stand up to most of the big restricted Pokemon making Sash or some Coba set almost mandatory. That being said, I think it's still a decent redirector and Spore is still good support alongside Pollen Puff or Clear Smog. A seems appropriate for this thing.

A -> A+
This one fell through the cracks, from the voting it is genuinely just on the border of A+ for some reason. This thing stands out as possibly the second best grass in the format right now, only behind Kartana which I think we all think is fair. But it cannot be denied that Fake Out support can be amazing, Grassy Glide is just the most spammable move in the whole game, CB Rilla tears through teams that can't resist it and AV Rilla sits in front of most teams. Removing the type redundancy that you get from using Kart next to stuff like Zac, Leo and Dialga is pretty nice too.

B+ - > A-
This thing is Sun's best attacker right now. Solar Power boosted attacks coming off of this things keep basically every restricted except for Kyogre, Palkia and Reshiram (which do get 2HKO'd by Airstream and Wyrmwind respectively) in check. Wildfire is a nuts move to start with, if Vine Lash is why Venu can be so good then this thing deserves to be at least on par if not better in the end. And then we look at Airstream... I'm not talking about Airstream without going on a tirade about how stupid this thing is to introduce.

B -> B+
I still think this thing deserves a mention in B+. Bulky TR setter that likes abusing WP and Dynamax? Has recovery moves? Decent set of moves, definitely a cut below Solgaleo in my opinion, but I think it's still a decent offensive Steel and uses the TR it can set better than most of the other mons can with its slightly lower speed tier. This one is sorta up in the air for me.

D -> somewhere in C
These are all usable at the end of the day, they might be outclassed or outperformed in some areas, but I think they all bring something to the table their counterparts (if they exist) don't. They're kinda just victims of the cutoff we used to vote in the end, and while yes they are less viable than some of the other restricted Pokemon on this list, they're definitely not down here with Mewtwo.


Fringe stuff I'll consider:
A+ -> S
Name a team these mons look out of place on. Regieleki has a plethora of options from Screens to Choice to just some standard offensive set. It hits really hard thanks to Transistor, and is pretty much always going first with that ungodly speed stat. Grimmsnarl equally just has the harshest 4mss in the whole game because it has way way way too many good supportive options and you're spoilt for choice every time that you bring it. Both wouldn't look out of place in the S-tier as basically Swiss Army Pokemon.

S -> A+
I really genuinely believe these 2 are 2/3 of the best restricted Pokemon in the game right now. Dialga has fairly good bulk and that only gets propagated by Screens and Dynamax (all of them are partnered with Grimmsnarl from my experience). It also has a Base 150SpA stat and a 150BP STAB move both in and out of max. It can also just start boosting its defenses with Quake and Steelspike, set TR for the team, and be a general nuisance for the opponent. That's my justifcation for putting it in S.

Zacian-Crowned to me doesn't even need to dynamax with those stats. Behemoth Blade is obviously a great move, and it tears through a lot of the metagame at large with its numerous sets (in QC we decided to just display 3 Attacks + Protect, Swords Dance and Substitute but it has a lot of good coverage options as well as sets like Agility although that is more common in BSS admittedly). The fact that this thing can just be partnered by a good screens setter like Lapras which has free reign to max doesn't actually make the lack of dynamax a huge problem to me.

 

[Skydago]

Dialga, Kyogre: S -> A+

I don't know if we're like, setting a new standard for S tier mons, but compare these three to the xerns of seasons past. They don't compare at all in terms of sheer format gravitation, although Kyogre does admittedly get close. And Incin is still arguably a tier above these just because it does it all. Swiss Army Cat.

Zacian-C: S -> A

I'm skeptical of zacian belonging in S tier when it can't even dynamax. The format is full of good offensive steels and the only thing really setting zacian apart is its amazing speed tier, which accounts for little when every other team has regieleki.

Amoongus: A+ -> A

Speaking as a Kyogre abuser, Amoonguss is so useless. It's a grass type, but it's so passive this series. It's nowhere near the same tier as rillaboom and eleki are as a check to kyogre and I've seen it get a spore off once in all my ladder matches.

Regieleki: A+ -> S

This could still be my Kyogre bias showing, but eleki always puts so much pressure on the opponent as a lead. With new sets and spreads starting to pop up, including dynamax options, it's so insanely hard to play around and imo just the best option for speed control in the format, because it's still providing that offensive pressure through electrowebs.

Rillaboom: A -> A+

This could still be my Kyogre bias showing, but rilla always puts so much pressure on the opponent as a lead. With new sets and spreads starting to pop up, including dynamax options, it's so insanely hard to play around and imo just the best option for a Kyogre check in the format, because it's still providing that offensive pressure through Grassy Glide.



I still think Dialga deserves A+ *for now* because historically a rating is more about their current strength and not about their strength in equilibrium. If Dialga is only A+ because it gets paired against windogre every match, then it deserves A+ regardless.



...
oh yeah one more

Cherrim: Unranked -> A-
stop using venusaur when this exists
you may not like it but this is peak performance

This is one of the big events recently happened.
Zacian+Lapras GMAX is one of the strongest archetype in the meta, since the two cover themselves pretty well and they basically out 75% of the meta.
Dialga is literally unkillable. He has one of the best typing ever seen and godly stats, that makes him take absolutely no damage while dynamax and still having an incredible damage output thanks to the MAX moves.

I agree with you for eleki and grimmsnarl tho.

 

[AustinXX555]

Screw it, might as well chip in myself. I'm very bad when it comes to making my own suggestions, so I'll just put my thoughts in on the more debated topics currently.

S -> A+ Disagree
I completely agree with the points that Skydago and Raineko make for Zacian and Dialga being in S tier. Dialga is very difficult to KO, and even without policy it can deal heaps of damage. Meanwhile, Zacian is a OHKOing beast and can smash so many heads with the right partners. And taking a closer look at the X9 league, Zacian is in 8/21 teams (over 1/3), while Kyogre and Dialga tie for 4/21 each. Yes a Kyogre team won the finals, but a closer inspection shows that all of the other 3 teams in the top 4 had Zacian, and that the 3 other Kyogre teams all got eliminated before top 8. Not only that, but take a wild guess as to which teams eliminated those 3 Kyogre teams? You guessed it, all Zacian. To me this shows that at the very least Zacian is of the same level as Kyogre. And even though Dialga is a bit more debatable as it didn't even have an appearance in top 4, I definitely wouldn't move Zacian down just yet.

A -> A+ Agree
I genuinely believe that Rillaboom is the best grass type in this meta. It's easily one of the best pivots in the game, and is probably only second to Incineroar. The combination of Fake Out and Grassy Glide is insane, and STAB Wood Hammer in Grassy Terrain can do crazy damage even without CB. Not to mention being able to weaken the power of ground type moves like Earthquake makes it a very good partner for Dialga and Zacian.

A+ -> A Agree
It may be a very good redirector, but it has way too many things going against it for it to be A+. The fact that it's forced run Sash or Coba Berry to be able to even stay on the field for more than 1 turn really tells that Amoonguss's bulk is struggling very hard to keep up with the meta. On top of that, the overall power of Trick Room and Xerneas (2 things that Amonguss is great at countering) have taken noticeable hits. Overall, it feels much less splashable on teams and definitely isn't on par with the rest of the pokemon in A+

A+ -> S Agree
With Trick Room weakened coupled with the increasing speed provided by pokemon like Zacian and Calyrex-Shadow, Speed Control from Taiwlind users like Whimsicott and Tornadus and the speed drops given by Electroweb and Icy Wind become much more important. And when it comes to that latter form of speed control. Regieleki is U N R I V A L E D, having a whopping 277 speed stat with 252 timid, along with access to electroweb. The combination of Magnet + the Transistor ability is a massive plus too, allowing it become a deadly damage dealer when needed. Honestly, I think eleki fits the bill to be S rank.

 

[smogon account]

I completely agree with the points that Skydago and Raineko make for Zacian and Dialga being in S tier. Dialga is very difficult to KO, and even without policy it can deal heaps of damage. Meanwhile, Zacian is a OHKOing beast and can smash so many heads with the right partners. And taking a closer look at the X9 league, Zacian is in 8/21 teams (over 1/3), while Kyogre and Dialga tie for 4/21 each. Yes a Kyogre team won the finals, but a closer inspection shows that all of the other 3 teams in the top 4 had Zacian, and that the 3 other Kyogre teams all got eliminated before top 8. Not only that, but take a wild guess as to which teams eliminated those 3 Kyogre teams? You guessed it, all Zacian. To me this shows that at the very least Zacian is of the same level as Kyogre. And even though Dialga is a bit more debatable as it didn't even have an appearance in top 4, I definitely wouldn't move Zacian down just yet.

I'd argue that the success of these mons is more due to their supporting cast (notably grimmsnarl, lapras, and regieleki) than their power level alone. Dialga is a clean 2HKO with basically any stab fighting/ground type move, and the best duo in the format, cherrim+groudon, ohkos it easily but screens coming up is what causes the trouble. Zacian's speed tier is definitely a big deal, making it much more threatening offensively than a naked Dialga, but Zacian simply doesn't win vs Kyogre without the strong support the team typically runs. (I guess in this sense, Zacian being unable to dynamax could be construed as an advantage for it because Lapras becomes the primary dynamaxer.) I personally don't think Zacian is wholly responsible for the success of Zacian teams, as bizarre as that sounds- every single Zacian team in that top cut had a Lapras as well, similarly to how every Kyogre has a Windorus to go with it. You also have to consider that the tournament was very probably heavily stacked against Kyogre. I think it's fair to not want to shift things around yet, but I also think it's better to keep them in the A tiers and only put them in S when it becomes apparent they belong there.

 

[AustinXX555]

I'd argue that the success of these mons is more due to their supporting cast (notably grimmsnarl, lapras, and regieleki) than their power level alone. Dialga is a clean 2HKO with basically any stab fighting/ground type move, and the best duo in the format, cherrim+groudon, ohkos it easily but screens coming up is what causes the trouble. Zacian's speed tier is definitely a big deal, making it much more threatening offensively than a naked Dialga, but Zacian simply doesn't win vs Kyogre without the strong support the team typically runs. (I guess in this sense, Zacian being unable to dynamax could be construed as an advantage for it because Lapras becomes the primary dynamaxer.) I personally don't think Zacian is wholly responsible for the success of Zacian teams, as bizarre as that sounds- every single Zacian team in that top cut had a Lapras as well, similarly to how every Kyogre has a Windorus to go with it. You also have to consider that the tournament was very probably heavily stacked against Kyogre. I think it's fair to not want to shift things around yet, but I also think it's better to keep them in the A tiers and only put them in S when it becomes apparent they belong there.

You do have valid point. I suppose I forgot to consider the fact that people would likely build against Kyogre, which would explain why so few Kyogre teams were brought. The argument of Zacian and Dialga teams are successful more because of their teammates is also something I didn't consider, and looking more into the argument, it does hold a lot of ground. Calcs on Pikalytics do show that common Dialga and Zacian builds struggle to live a lot of attacks without screens.. While I still believe that Zacian and Dialga are two of the best restricted options in the current meta, S Rank does seem like a bit of a overrate for them.

 

[KachiVGC]

Screw it, I guess I have to put my thoughts on the current series 8 metagame

This isn't the most accurate tier list but, I think you'll get my idea of the tier list. I'm going to make an analysis for every legend ( the non-restricted and the "do not use these" pokemon), but that is for another day. I think Dialga got greatly buffed because of the absence of Groudon and the existence of Grimm snarl helping a lot. Zacian is getting settled down, and it's not really "overrated" anymore. Anyways I will give you my thoughts on what should be placed.

, S -> A+ Agree

I do agree with this mostly because of the fall of Groudon and not a true fighting type this generation makes Dialga overpowered but, it also weak to Groudon still. There are possibilities that it will show up at a game, and also Groudon is paired with Venusuar now so, Venusuar and Groudon can remove Grimmsnarl and put Dialga with no problem( most of the time). I agree with Raineko but, people do have mixed opinions about certain restricted.

A+ -> S Disagree

Regieleki is fast and strong, and it has bulky screen variants but, TornOgre is too much of a threat for Regieleki to handle, and sure you could run fake-out, but a lot of Torns run sash and, Kyogre runs protect now.

, a -> a+ agree
Amoongus and Rillaboom are valued because of different reasons. First Amoogus was always good because of its bulk, rage powder support, and pinch berries. This would be scary because of Calyrex-shadow entering the tiers. Rillaboom is amazing because of how it could fake-out and grassy glide which is very valuable because Regieleki can't beat Kyogre without thunder and, tailwind ruins it.

This is all, what do you think about my post? Let me know :), and I also like a said from the start I am going to make a series 8 analysis.

 

[yuki]

This isn't the most accurate tier list but, I think you'll get my idea of the tier list.

So I kinda just don't. Capturing what the metagame is doing by only ranking the legends is kinda hard to do for a start, because a lot of the mons that we tend to use aren't legendary to start with. In addition to that, even if this is ranking only legends there are lot of discrepancies that I think are the just wrong. Things like Kubfu, Calyrex and Necrozma being ranked at all. Things like Registeel, Regice, and the Articunos (amongst a lot of others) also getting ranked. Mewtwo and Necrozma-Dawn-Wings getting as high as B+ when we voted them UR/D.

Basically any play in this format will show you majority of these Pokemon should just be ranked in Do Not Use, because they are simply not of the caliber for this ruleset (there is no way you could get me to use a single member of the Lake Trio). The short answer is: just because they're legendary, doesn't really mean they're any good (even when ranked comparatively to each other, most things just shouldn't be used in the grand scheme of things).

I'm going to make an analysis for every legend ( the non-restricted and the "do not use these" pokemon), but that is for another day.

If you are genuine in this, and really want to do this, join the Smogon VGC discord. We are going to be starting analyses soon via C&C, and that would be the best place to start. But it does require a fairly deep understanding of what you're going to be writing and analysis for, and it requires it to be fairly well written because it is going to appear on the Smogon analysis page for that Pokemon. I cannot stress enough that if we do not feel it is to the right caliber, QC will just reject it outright. The other matter is that we have a priority queue of things we want to have analyses, so it won't be likely that you'll really ever see an analysis for Mewtwo, for example.

In the same vein, I would also like to make it very clear that if you post "analyses" in this subforum, we're probably just going to delete them because we will be doing these elsewhere.

The points you make at the bottom seem okay. My main issue is that they're kinda one-dimensional takes at the metagame right now: only really addressing TornOgre and Groudon as potential issues for these mons where they provide a lot more in other matchups (or even struggle in other matchups) or just provide a hell of a lot of utility or options for a team (see Regieleki - which is fairly okay into TornOgre).

 

[Netherious]

Just some small notes here that I think are worth mentioning;



S -> A+

I think the hype for Dialga has simmered a bit, and Groudon usage has climbed to a point where Dialga's merit is challenged as an S tier. It doesn't have a strong method of recovery, is prone to snarl spam, and can be simply outdamaged by several pokemon in the metagame. It most definitely is still very strong but It's proven to me in testing that it isn't quite S.



S ->A+

Fake out. Fake out. Fake out. It's such a crippling weakness for Zacian. It's lack of ability to dynamax is very brutal as well, however I do think it is one of the most oppressive pokemon in the metagame. I think over time it will rise back to S tier as people get more creative with its builds. Zacian feels very much like Mega Rayquaza, but much more balanced. This balance keeps it out of S for me now.



B -> A-/B+

Spectrier is a menace right now and I think this is the pokemon I feel the most strong for right now. It supports Zacian extremely well in my testing and a build where Spectrier outspeeds Zacian and Dynamaxes is just so threatening. Max Phantasms into Behemoth Blade is very difficult for many things to survive. Overall this is one of the new merits I've found for Spectrier, however it also offers a lot to the metagame that just builds a stronger and stronger call for it. Snarl, Taunt, Max Strike, and Weakness Policy activation via Bulldoze are all very valuable additions behind a 130 base speed pokemon who's immune to Fake Out without dynamaxing. It does need to be weary of Calyrex-Shadow, however with speed control support, it can snarl and bulky variants can survive Astral Barrage. I'd expect to see a lot more of Spectrier as the metagame goes forward.

That's all I've got for now, otherwise I feel we started this VR off pretty strong.

 

[Emanuel.EXE]

D -> C-

Kyurem-B is missing in the C- Rank

 

[Giokio]

I think that Lugia should be higher, it might have a low damage output but its acces to multiscale, a higher speed than most of other restricteds, meaning a faster airstream, and the fact that it is practically immortal, make him a solid B tier.

First of all, his weakness in damage output can be fixed giving him the usual weakness policy and calm mind; this might still not make it the best powerhouse in the metagame, in fact, its damage remains soft, but it surely fixes its main problem.
It is wrong to compare Lugia to other Resticteds whose main focus is to deal as much damage as they can in the three turns of dynamax, because Lugia is in fact a tank. It can set up a calm mind and then go for 3 max airstreams without worrying of getting easily taken out, and in the meantime his allies benefit the speed boosting. Once the dynamax turns have passed, Lugia can go for recover, to keep his presence on the field, stack up even more boosts with calm mind if the opponent lowered his special attack too much with snarl, or just finish off opponents with aeroblast and earth power. Most of the other restricteds don’t have this much snowballing potential because of their lower defenses or lack of a reliable recovery, that’s why Lugia is a niche option but really valuable.

 

[Bananers]

Mienshao C- -> C+

This thing has a lot of things going for it. Can't be Intimidated nor Faked Out. Has a decently quick Fake Out. Strong Close Combat to take chunks of Incin and Dialga. A plethora of support moves such as Coaching, Ally Switch, Helping Hand. Quick Guard, and Wide Guard. Has a fast non-prankster taunt for dark types. Definitely a lot of things going for it. In my opinion much better than stuff like Indeedee-M and Kyurem-Black which is in the same tier as it.

 

[He-who-is-not-to-be-named]

I nominate Garchomp for C- or C, maybe C+.

I believe it still has a niche in the VGC metagame as an attacker suited to taking down specific pokemon/forcing offensive pressure on the opposing team. It's definitely hindered this time by the dominant presence of Zacian-Crowned, Lapras, Tapu Fini and the like, but this turns into one of its strengths when on the field. Most players don't think much of Garchomp when they first encounter it, and oftentimes this allows it to set up a Swords Dance or deal a large amount of damage before the opposing team starts to take serious notice. Afterwards, they usually feel hard-pressed to KO Garchomp, giving Garchomp's partner more wiggle room to set up/wreak havok on the opposing team.

Another thing Garchomp has going for it is its typing - while Ground-Dragon is 4x weak to ice-type moves, this typing makes Garchomp well suited to dealing with the likes of Regieleki, Thundurus, Incineroar and Dialga(which it naturally outspeeds) as it can seriously cripple or OHKO the aforementioned pokemon after a Swords Dance boost while receiving minimal damage from/outspeeding them.

While its mediocre-at-best bulk and weaknesses to common typings keep Garchomp from being fully viable, it is still a pokemon that has a niche role that it fills well.

 

[Darkmalice]

I nominate Garchomp for C- or C, maybe C+.

I believe it still has a niche in the VGC metagame as an attacker suited to taking down specific pokemon/forcing offensive pressure on the opposing team. It's definitely hindered this time by the dominant presence of Zacian-Crowned, Lapras, Tapu Fini and the like, but this turns into one of its strengths when on the field. Most players don't think much of Garchomp when they first encounter it, and oftentimes this allows it to set up a Swords Dance or deal a large amount of damage before the opposing team starts to take serious notice. Afterwards, they usually feel hard-pressed to KO Garchomp, giving Garchomp's partner more wiggle room to set up/wreak havok on the opposing team.

Another thing Garchomp has going for it is its typing - while Ground-Dragon is 4x weak to ice-type moves, this typing makes Garchomp well suited to dealing with the likes of Regieleki, Thundurus, Incineroar and Dialga(which it naturally outspeeds) as it can seriously cripple or OHKO the aforementioned pokemon after a Swords Dance boost while receiving minimal damage from/outspeeding them.

While its mediocre-at-best bulk and weaknesses to common typings keep Garchomp from being fully viable, it is still a pokemon that has a niche role that it fills well.

So why should I use it over Landorus-Therian, who does everything you mentioned above but also provides intimidate, has access to Max Airstream, and matches better against Zacian Crowned? I had thought of using it for sun match ups because it outspeed charizard and resists fire-type, but landorus-therian fairs better against groudon and can use assault vest if it’s really worried about charizard. There are some select other Pokémon that Chomp would be better against like Palkia, but I believe Lando-T’s greater utility and better match up spread would outweigh this on most if not all teams.

 

[smogon account]

So why should I use it over Landorus-Therian, who does everything you mentioned above but also provides intimidate, has access to Max Airstream, and matches better against Zacian Crowned? I had thought of using it for sun match ups because it outspeed charizard and resists fire-type, but landorus-therian fairs better against groudon and can use assault vest if it’s really worried about charizard. There are some select other Pokémon that Chomp would be better against like Palkia, but I believe Lando-T’s greater utility and better match up spread would outweigh this on most if not all teams.

speed tier

here's a list of some relevant pokemon that grampoch outspeeds over lando

jynx
arcanine
kyurem
zygarde
tapu lele
urshifu
solgaleo
yveltal
xerneas
regigigas
charizard
palkia
zapdos
entei
thundurus

lando has slightly better physical bulk thanks to intimidate but I don't agree with voldy's "mediocre-at-best" descriptor of chargmop's bulk, it's pretty good
specifically I think calling out the thundy matchup is reason enough to use gramchop over lando, it's gaining a lot of usage as a partner for groudon and other physical restricteds to deter the lando+incin core, rockfall is a clean 2hko on it while airstream does a third at best to marchpog

 

[He-who-is-not-to-be-named]

So why should I use it over Landorus-Therian, who does everything you mentioned above but also provides intimidate, has access to Max Airstream, and matches better against Zacian Crowned? I had thought of using it for sun match ups because it outspeed charizard and resists fire-type, but landorus-therian fairs better against groudon and can use assault vest if it’s really worried about charizard. There are some select other Pokémon that Chomp would be better against like Palkia, but I believe Lando-T’s greater utility and better match up spread would outweigh this on most if not all teams.

All of what you mentioned is quite true, though I feel Garchomp's niche in outspeeding and taking down Charizard and Thundurus could warrant it a C- or C rank?

It might not see use on most teams, and for the most part, I definitely agree that Lando-T has it beat in most areas, but it has a distinct niche it fills and it's useful on some teams(particularly teams where Thundurus, Charizard, etc. are already used and want an attacker that doesn't overlap with their flying type).

 

[GimTomato]

Ladies and Gentlemen and everyone in between, I would like to propose:
Thundurus-T to C Tier!
This thing has volt absorb, which allows it to serve as a wall to eleki and a switch in to Ogre's Thunder, as well as its own incarnate form.
With a base spatk as high as lando-t's attack, as well as great coverage in flash cannon, sludge bomb, and dark pulse, this birdy boy can smack several of the meta's threats such as Xern, Yveltal, the Riders, rilla, and more! While it lacks airstream, it could be a great addition to a tornogre team.

 

[Bananers]

Necrozma-Dawn-Wings ???

This isn't my vid but I found a NDW team/report.

Maybe C- but idk.

 

[Bananers]

Ok people, time for my list of noms I have thought about.

Rises

Regieleki
To S
This mon is so good right now. The sheer amount of sets you can run with this thing is amazing. Bulky Screens, Specs, Magnet, Sash, heck I've even experimented with with Magnet Eerie Impulse for a Support/Offensive set. To add on to all of this its one of the best Kyogre threats in the meta, which is always valuable. Its just so splashable on every team not Hard TR, and in my opinion deserving of S.

Venusaur
To A
I am an advocate for sun teams, and this is a great mon even with the influx of bulk and grasses in the meta at the moment. Sleep Powder as always is still amazing, and I've been using a more interesting move on Venu, Weather Ball. Look all I'm gonna say is look at Weather Ball Venu in Sun and look at the A+ tier. Definitely on par with its sun friends.

Yveltal
To A
Yveltal is a seriously underrated mon right now. There are two main sets, AV and Offensive LOrb/WP. AV can shrug off hits like its nothing combined with the nice dark typing, a general good typing against special mons, and a solidly fast Snarl, Veltal can cripple fields really well. Oblivion Wing gives it recovery for endgames as well. Sucker Punch and Foul Play, which are the last two moves you should be running on AV are just really nice in many situations. I have personally found that AV Veltal+Ferrothorn can create amazing endgames for you. Now we have offensive. It basically plays the same way as G-Moltres does, but this time with fire coverage which is nice for hitting Zacian. Overall, very solid mon with a lot of potential. I recommend JoeUX9's stream Vod's for more on how to use Veltal. He is super talented player and a Yveltal pioneer.

Palkia
To A-
This thing is seriously good. Water/Dragon is very good typing against the current metatrends (Non Play Rough Zacian, Lapras, Kyogre, Dialga (it's forced to use a dragon move giving free switches to fairys or steels), etc.). This thing especially is a really good offensive threat. Water,Dragon,Ground is very nice coverage, and 150 SpAtk with LOrb is no joke. Paired with Fake Tears Whimsicott it can take KO's all over the place. Also it takes on Groudon well, unlike its cousin Dialga which just dies to Max Ground. I've been using this and it deserves A rank imo.

Ferrothorn
To B+/A-
Ok sorry WHAT. This thing is in the same tier as Arcanine? This thing is seriously amazing, and all because of one set. Protect/Leech Seed/Iron Defense/Body Press. This thing walls a majority of the top mons right now. Lets go down the list, Eleki, Kyogre, Zacian after Iron Defense, non Fire Punch Groudon, Dialga, Non Weather Ball not in sun Venu (eventually body press kills it), Rillaboom, doesn't wall Kart but beats it 1v1s if played correctly, non Flare Blitz Solgaleo, Lapras, Fini, Amoonguss can't touch it, Caly-I after Iron Defense, Non Heat Wave Zapdos,which I have actually seen a fair bit recently, Lando after Iron Defense, the list goes on, and thats just the A Tier. I seriously wanna nom this for A+, but that would just make my argument invalid as that is way to big of a jump.

Milotic
To B
Ok so I haven't used this mon but the only time I have seen it is with Dusk Mane Necro, and vice versa. So in my opinion they should be in the same tier. Thats the only reason I am making this nom.

Dragapult
To B-
So we have only seen this on Coal teams, hence why its in the same tier as Coal. But this thing as another notable niche, that being the ZaciPult combo. As we all know LapDog has been taking the format by storm, but I have seen some trainers branch off from the standard Zacian teams with Dragapult/Zacian, and it's honestly pretty dang good. You boost your Zacian's speed with Max Airstream as well as lower the defenses with Max Ghost. Think of Dragapult of a less bulky more aggro partner for Zacian.

Gastrodon
To B-
I have always loved using Gastro, and it's the best Kyogre check defensively in the meta right now. This mon can go on Kyogre weak teams and help it out immensely. I have also been experimenting this on Sun as Venusaur can struggle against Kyogre teams if they max Tornadus. Basically think of this as a defensive version of Rotom-Wash, a mon ranked in B because of its Kyogre countering capabilities, at least that is what I assume.

Drops

Zacian-Crowned
To A

Ok so hot take here. Zacian-C is a nuke, do not get me wrong on that, but there are a couple reasons I believe that it isn't as good as people say it is right now. Number one is the amount of bulky Steel types, especially the Psychic/Steel brothers. I mean I don't think I need to explain why Steel types are bad for Zacian. Number two, its only viable with Lapras at the moment, a super weak mon offensively. Now I know I just wanted to rise Dragapult because of the potential of ZaciPult, but keyword being "potential" there. As of now, the only teams I have seen with Zacian are Lapras teams, and Lapras is unbelievably weak mon to max. Again like I said, this mon is a threat in the right situation, but right now the meta isn't very kind to Zacian and friends. Similar to Shadow Rider honestly, broken in the right situation, but those situations aren't very present right now.

Ho-Oh
To B+
I'm sorry Ho-Oh fans but your bird boi isn't very good at the moment. With no way to boost and only a 130 base attack stat this thing just doesn't exert any offensive pressure at all, a thing you want with your restricted. Super weak to intimidate as well. You play this more as an defensive endgame sorta mon, but Yveltal outclasses there, and on top of that Veltal exerts actual offensive pressure.

Xerneas
To B+
Another victim of bulky steels. And to be honest with the addition of DMax, neutral hits aren't doing a bajillion damage like it did back in the days of broken Xern. Thats pretty much it for Xern, nothing else to add.

Stakataka
To B/B-
Wide Guard+TR is nice but there is just so much Ground and Fighting moves at the moment that I can't justify it being almost A rank. Celesteela kinda just does its job better as a Wide Guard support mon.

Arcanine
To C
Nothing much to say except Incineroar. Don't really know why you would use this over Incin.

Dusclops
To C+
As much as I love Dusclops I must admit the meta is EXTREMELY unkind to it. CalyG and Urshifu are the main perpetrators, but small stuff like P2 being a staple TR reverser on many teams, or Taunt Incin becoming a popular thing. Just really bad right now with the metatrends.

Cresselia
To UR
Cresselia caught a case of the Dusclops here. Dusclops already outclassed and had the same problems as this thing as a TR setter, and now with clops on the decline this thing is unusable in my opinion. If you want speed control that isn't TR, don't use this thing either, just use Tornadus or Regieleki.

Indeedee-M
To UR
Yeah gonna be honest I don't really know why this is ranked. It's sister Indeedee-F just outclasses it. The two things this has over Indeedee-F are bad this meta. One of which being Imprison+TR, which relies on it sticking around which is a pretty rough task. Not to mention there are better forms of TR control in P2 and Taunt Incin. The other thing this does "better" than Indeedee-F is Psyspam, buuut, look at the S tier. Two dark type mons. Yeah this thing is pretty awful.
​

Here are some noms that I agree with but it's fucking almost 4 in the morning so no time to get into them:
Garchomp -> C+ (check JoeUX9's teams)
Thundy-T-> C

OK WAIT ONE MORE THING BEFORE I GO TO SLEEP

?? Kyogre??
I am skeptical on how good Kyogre is at the moment. One one hand it does so much damage as we all know, but on the other every team has checks for it. It seems pretty useless due to how much checks people run for it, but it also seems very threatening because of how much checks people run for it. See what I mean here? I think this is a very good topic point to discuss.

 

[yuki]

Alrighty then, time for some of my thoughts on this one.

Rises

A -> A+
This thing is absolutely exceptional. No questions asked. In the sun, this thing is just an unstoppable force KOing even some resisted hits. I've been playing a hell of a lot of Charizard, even outside of dedicated sun teams because Wildfire and its output are so good. Consistent and orthodox checks for this thing come in short supply.

A -> A+
Tell me what counters this. AV Thundurus has been an absolutely exceptional Electric-type for a lot of teams I've played, especially when you consider it's competing with 2 of my favourite mons in Koko and Regieleki. Just far too solid against Caly-S, Kyogre and double Intimidate cores. Anything lower than A+ feels like an insult to this thing.

A- -> A
Honestly, this thing is just really good. Huge amounts of offensive pressure thanks to WP and Dark Aura, and it just helps overcome even negative matchups. Definitely needs to be considered for higher, maybe even going as high as A+ eventually.

B+ -> A-
Yeah I've got some experience with this thing now after seeing Yoko's team. I'm absolutely expecting this thing to go wild soon, because it is one of the most threatening setup attackers in the format right now. Definitely something I regret writing off earlier in the season as just B+.

B- -> B
I love these 2 Pokemon. Body Press + Iron Defense can be an absolute force in a lot of endgames, and frankly they become huge walls that are extremely difficult to plow through. I think both can definitely be considered for any team that needs a bulky Steel presence.

B- -> B
This thing provides so much support that it's becoming impossible to ignore for me. Snarl, Yawn, Helping Hand and several methods of lowering damage output, with recovery options. Yeah I'm a big fan of this right now, so I'd definitely support moving it up a tier.

C+ -> B
I'm sorry Dragapult. I've been disrespecting your name for the last 2 series now, and that was a dumb move. This thing is amazing. AuraRayquaza's TornOgre team really highlights just what this thing can do well: exceptional speed, exceptional attack, able to boost speed, control weather or lower defenses on a whim. Definitely something that I think will be further explored and can only get better.

Drops

S -> A
I'm chalking this one to us not really having the clearest ideas of the format during the first week or so. This thing seems like it has amazing options: Screens, Fake Tears, Fake Out, speed control. It really does quite a lot well. But this is far less potent now we all have a bit of experience, so while it is still good it's a cut below where it used to be.

A- -> B+
The big bird isn't doing as well as I really thought it would. I just feel like it doesn't have enough offensive pressure, so I've felt forced into playing Weakness Policy or some boosting item constantly with this thing. It also eats up my max, and I'm just not a fan of it in the restricted slot right now.

A- -> B+
This thing is still really good in my opinion, but it's just a simple fact of the matter it's not as good as the other lion right now and it hasn't been as effective as it was in the earlier weeks. Definitely think this thing has potential still to go far, but it's not the premier Steel option.

A- -> B+
Solgaleo drops, its most common partner. It still provides good utility but, I don't think it can stay this high.

Things I don't have enough of an opinion on

Honestly, anything else left in C. I don't have nearly enough experience with these mons, nor have I seen enough of them for me to comfortably bump them. I trust a lot of the views here, and on reading them they make a hell of a lot of sense. But I'm not comfortable backing any of them right now, I'd need to see a little bit more before we start pushing these mons towards the B tier.

 

[Giokio]

I'd like to vote on some nominations soon as we've now basically had a whole month of the format. Gonna provide my own really quickly and hopefully we'll be back with updates by the end of the weekend.

Rises
C+ -> B+

Dragapult being an anti meta mon is pretty funny to me, but it's seen a pretty meteoric rise thanks to AuraRayquaza's Kyogre team. I've played a few games with it myself and I like what it does: it's fast, it resets weather if you want it to, it drops spdef if you want it to. sick mon

A- -> A

Been playing a lot of Yveltal recently and I think it's great. In particular I prefer the stabs + heat wave WP build because it's definitely the most bang for your buck and even lets it beat bad matchups like Zacian. Agree with Bananers7 in that this mon is crazy slept on.

A -> A+

People ask me what counters Thundurus a lot and honestly there's very little that I can really tell them. The Defiant AV set is really solid for good matchups against intimidate stacking cores and Kyogre, and there's also cheese sets with Eerie Impulse and Twave running around all over ladder. Normally I wouldn't give ladder much consideration but tbh this format is basically just for laddering purposes and PC3 so I think ladder weighs a lot more than it normally would.

A -> A+

Zard's fucking fire. When so much of the metagame is comprised of steels, Zard pretty much stands on top of all of them and clicks the red buttons. It's hard to efficiently check since relying on your electric isn't often the most valid gameplan thanks to groudon (and venusaur depending on the electric)

B+ -> A-

This is a pretty bad look imo. As much as I was a hater at first, Yoko's team started a wave of innovation for this mon and I've only seen people take it higher. Really like the SD Trick Room sets and think we'll continue to see this thing pop off in tours.

B- -> B

grouping these three together because they all just stand out to me as Pokemon in the wrong tier. Umbry and Kiss's support sets have seen enough play for me to believe they aren't just one off ladder trends, and I think ferrothorn's body press set is still threatening as hell since you aren't breaking it easily without sacred sword or a healthy fire.

drops:

agree with everything Bananers7 posted with the exception of Indeedee-M but here's a few more I'd like to touch on:

S -> A

yeah now that people have learned to play the format I think grimmsnarls toolkit is a little less effective, still good but not the point that I think every team is totally cool with slapping one on and it never looks out of place.

A -> A-

This one is probably my fault because I got the smogon vgc guys hyped on Solg after I had a lot of success in battle spot with it. Being largely limited to single target moves or a weak earthquake isn't great. Being obliterated by Charizard and Shadowrex isn't great. Pretty much needing Screens support in order to have a functionable TornOgre matchup... you get the point.

A- -> B/B-

Same point as above I think spect is pretty mid and only really good at supporting solgaleo.

Other stuff I'm okay with moving but don't have a ton of thoughts on:

Saw KabilaPok's team on it which I thought was really cool. I don't have a problem with moving it out of the garbage tier if people are actually doing cool things with the mon.

Yeah sure. Electrics are on every team so having an electric beat other electrics is neat.

chomp's fine imo, good speed tier and being a fire resist is nice. Not super great tho so I do think lower C-tier is where it resides.

Giokio is a good player and I trust his opinions. Also seen a few other people bring it up and I think it's cute. Probably should be around B-

Shao's pretty neat. Meet me in the middle and say it belongs in C tier. Cool toolkit and strong CC thanks to it never being Intim'd but it really only fits with shadowrider and maybe sun from my experience.

Stuff I disagree with and why

S rank

Main thing about this is that while I think Eleki is good, there's some serious opportunity cost for your electric in this format, mostly from Thundurus but also the little guys like Raichu Koko Zapdos and the Rotoms. Eleki rarely looks out of place on any team but I feel like there are teams I see it on and think "X might be just a little bit better here"

UR

Been using Indeedee-M + Shadowrex offense for like the past two weeks and I have to say the duo is fantastic. Would recommend you give it a try, I think Male's ability to imprison coupled with its damage output is enough for it to at least be on the VR

Loving the discussion so far tbh let's keep it going

Zee saying i'm a good player is such a great feeling btw

 

[Bananers]

Ok so I left out a nom on my post last night, prolly because I was tired as fuck lol.

Hydreigon
UR -> C-
Ok so no one has used this mon, except for the legend himself Joe Ugarte, and he has shown that this mon is legit. LOrb plus its very solid SpAtk does a lot of damage, and also Dark/Dragon is a very good defensive typing right now resisting CalyG, Kyogre for the most part, Venusaur, and 92/90/90 bulk is nothing to scoff at especially when you consider it has Max Ground and Max Steel. Overall, very underrated pick at the moment. For the record here is two of Joes teams, both of which use Hydreigon https://pokepast.es/5dfcb93524a19bd4, https://pokepast.es/cdecb4fcb0c7b10b.​

 

[ttr]

Some tiering thoughts I had about Pokemon I've used (and /or this thread has discussed):

rises:

C- -> C+/B- Lugia should be higher, it's so hard to take down once it gets set up, and it is not difficult for it to find the room to do so. B- Rank fits well for it at the moment though, any set up sets can be a little too passive and a lot of teams can plan and take advantage of Lugia's set up time. It still is vastly underappreciated, I've been rolled by both Leftovers and Weakness Policy sets to say anything too bad about it.

I think C/C- rank is where it fits best right now, I like it, but it is harder to fit on teams when Landrous-T is around. The speed tier is nice, but I don't always find it that important in this metagame, expecially from a pokemon that isn't really a dynamax target.

C is a good place for this, handling Thundurus-I is pretty nice, and it has a decent setup option with Nasty Plot, but the lack of Max Airstream outside of Fly really holds it back. I still think it is a little underexplored though, but walling Eleki and other Electric's is underrated in this format.

D -> C-: I think it does have some more use than being stuck in the D tier,, but like a few pokemon in Series 8 it has a big, bear shaped problem. Wicked Blow / Sucker Punch kinda shuts it down, and unlike it's fellow Psychic / Ghost Calyrex-Shadow its slow as hell. It needs a lot of team support that holds it back in my opinion.

A- -> A: Speaking of Urshifu, Urshifu-S has been real solid in Series 8, it's predictable, but extremely reliable. I've always found it fitting well as a 5th or 6th Pokémon on a team, shoring up a lot of team weaknesses. Focus Sash is by far and away it's best set. All it really needs in terms of moveset is Wicked Blow, Sucker Punch, and Close Combat, the fourth move is really free for whatever you want to tech on (or just use protect).

A- -> A: as an add on to the existing posts, Everything in Yveltal's moveset really synergizes well with each other (spamming max darkness's are so, so fun), and Heat Wave as an option to hit troublesome steels can really turn matches in Yveltal's favor.

C+ -> B It's good, I think it has a lot of flexible options that are fun (and good) to take advantage of either in teambuilding or ingame.


drops:

A- -> B+/B: I agree with Bananers7 essentially, I don't think Xerneas is really good in this format (at least compared to it's own earlier power in older VGC years). It hits hard after getting a Geomancy off, but I find it struggles to find the time to do so. The common supporting pokemon around it are easy to take advantage of, and you are commonly spending an entire turn doing nothing besides setting up, while your opponent is dealing damage or Dynamaxing, dealing damage and potentially setting up a boost or two. In my opinion, Xerneas is too passive in comparison to so much of the metagame which are usually fine with just hitting things. It's shallow movepool is more apparent than ever, and it really struggles to break through the common Steels like Solgaleo, Zacian-C, and even Dialga to an extent. I'd say it can drop lower, but Power Herb Geomancy can still roll teams when you can get it off.

A-> A-: Solgaleo's still good in this metagame, but I can see a slide in it's viability. There's quite a few cores and teams it struggles against, but otherwise it runs competently enough and has some options to experiment in the metagame.

staying the same (imo):

I think it's solid, but I lean more towards zeefable's opinion in that while its not really out of the place on any team, something else could fit better. There are so many viable electric types that I find it hard to say that Eleki is head and shoulders above everything else.

Dusclops still has a nice niche as a Trick Room setter that is immune to Fake Out. Porygon2 I still think is more flexible, but if my team is comfortable with handling Incineroar, Urshifu-S, and Calyrex-S then I think its good. In my experience, I'm usually not leaning on my TR option against Urshifu-S and Calyrex-S anyways, so being weak to those two does not really effect Dusclops in my eyes.

 

[Evelyie]

Thundurus Incarnate form: A- to A

Thundurus is such a beast in this format; it's abilty Defiant just applies so much pressure in this format where moves such as Snarl, Eerie Impulse are so common together with Intimidate. In the X9 League Championship 2, it appeared twice, placing even top 16, and placed 4th in the Women's Tournament II. I think this Pokémon has a great coverage, good MU's such as: Kyogre, Yveltal, Calyrex-S, and should definetly belong to a higher tier in my opinion