Scyther vs. Scizor - Speed or Survivability?

Better_Sandw1ch

I'm currently going through the process of putting a team together involving Scizor, and I happened to take a look at Scyther's page on Serebii while I was at it. I was slightly surprised to find that the two had an equal amount of total base stats. In fact, looking at it, it seemed to me that if anything Scyther had a better distribution than his evolution, losing some attack and defense in return for a speed stat that outruns a good portion of pokemon. So which one is more viable to use?

The obvious advantage Scizor gains is his typing - Steel/Bug suffers only one uncommon weakness (albeit 4X) in fire, and has resistances to normal, grass (4X, making him great with a Swampert), Ice, Psychic, Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, and a poison immunity to boot. Bug/Flying, on the other hand, is notorious for being one of the worst combinations in the game, packing weaknesses to fire, electric, ice, flying, and worst of all, 4X rock. However, it's resistances, while more limited, are stronger in some regards than Scizor's; 4X grass, 4X fighting, and complete immunity to ground (and a bug resist :p).

So why use Scyther over Scizor? Speed makes more of a difference than one would think. While Scizor is likely forced to absorb two hits (unless he is Scarfed) before he gets an attack when he switches in, Scyther will usually get the jump on his opponent the turn after he switches in, meaning he can actually serve as a decent counter to pokemon that are middle-of-the-road in terms of speed. Not only that, but by switching in on a predicted fighting or ground move (very common attack types), Scyther takes notably less damage than a switching Scizor (who would take normal damage to those attacks).

Not only that, but with his speed Scyther can make better use of a CB set than his metallic counterpart (again, two hits versus one). Something worth noting is the fact that Scyther gets STAB on Aerial Ace, turning it into a 135 BP move with Technician. Not too shabby, especially considering Scyther is going to be switching in on fighting or grass types most often. Running CB on a Jolly Scyther with full Attack and Speed investments gives you a 478 attack , 339 speed sweeper with Bug, Fighting, Flying, and Dark attacks (decent coverage all around).

So I guess the question is, how viable of an option is Scyther in regular play in comparison with his evolution? Any thoughts?
 
Nice analysis, idea, and all that jazz. Honestly, in the long and short of it, Scyther could be a nice CBer, but he's completely outdone by other better, more stable pokemon that can fill more gaps in a team (Staraptor, Gyarados:P, Tauros). He's also stopped quite easily by common counters/walls (skarm, rhyperior, zong), and can't hit hard back.

On my own though, I've always used Scyther simply because of his sweet sprite. IMO, he wins the "coolest looking pokemon" award, or at least ties with Lucario.
 
In ADV, scyther was superior scizor because of speed, but in DP things have changed, most significantly, the addition of stealth rock, and the upgrade to sandstorm. In ADV, scyther could sweep teams using substitute/swords dance/reversal @salac (I often swept OU teams that were expecting a CB scyther). The only thing scizor could do in ADV was baton pass. Scyther has been hurt by the introduction of stealth rock which does 50% on every switch and only takes one of the opponents moves, while spikes took three moves to set up and did 0% to scyther. The real killer is sandstorm though. Stealth rock cripples Choice scythers, but it actually helps reversal scythers. Sandstorm does not. DP turned tyranitar into the strongest nonuber in the game by far, which is bad news for scyther bcause sandstorm ruins scythers chances of getting down to 1 hp and sweeping with reversal / aerial ace.

Scizor on the other hand takes 12.5% from stealth rock and no damage from sandstorm. And now it actually has a movepool, unlike ADV where the only moves it had was swords dance, agility, baton pass and reversal.

So to answer your question... Use scyther. What? Yes, scyther is still better as a reversal sweeper, its just that now you need a rapid spinner and a weather changer to support it, whereas in ADV you need neither. Scizor just doesnt have the movepool to be competitive outside of a baton pass team, as metal/bug is a terrible offensive typing combination.
Never use Choice Band scyther, that type of narrow minded thinking is what made Scyther UU in advance. Choice Bands for pokemon with humongous attack or pokemon with good attack and good defenses.
 
Most of what you said was right on the money TVboy, but the last bit needs a bit of correction.

Never use Choice Band scyther, that type of narrow minded thinking is what made Scyther UU in advance. Choice Bands for pokemon with humongous attack or pokemon with good attack and good defenses.
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CB Scyther was pretty sweet in advance. Not game-winning or anything like that, but definitely fun and useable. Choice Band's for pokes with lots of attack? Tauros, one of my favorite pokes, is probably the most famous user of the Choice Band (aside from Slaking), and still poses a threat in D/P. His attack, however, is actually lower than Scyther's - 100 to 110. Aerodactyl is another similar example. Those two pokes have relatively horrible defenses, and are still known as some of the best CBers ever. Anyways, the point is, CB is mainly used to boost an OK-attack to godly levels.
 
I just think Scizor is too slow. But he can take a hit better then scyther and maybe Counter it back. I don't think Scyther could take Tyranitar on One on One, but Scizor could. But Scyther can hit hard then Scizor IMO
 
I have to agree with TVboy. Too much stealth rock and tyranitar for scyther to handle. Sczior only has a weakness to fire (which can actually be reduced, thanks to the new berries) and doesn't have to worry about a sandstorm.
 
Ok, here IMO is the problem with Scyther now. It just seems COMPLETELY outclassed by Scizor now with the addition of Choice Scarf. All it had before was more speed, but in return had a much crappier typing. Now Scizor can just use Choice Scarf and become faster than Scyther, have neutrality to Stealth Rock, immunity to Sandstorm, have only one weakness and much more resistances...

Scyther does look like it can work for a nice quick baton pass though, but it seems like Ninjask is a lot more suited to that.

IMO, all Scyther has going for it now is STAB'd Technician'd Aerial Ace, but however, that can destroy things very well especially if it's CB'd.
 
efire_ said:
Most of what you said was right on the money TVboy, but the last bit needs a bit of correction.



CB Scyther was pretty sweet in advance. Not game-winning or anything like that, but definitely fun and useable. Choice Band's for pokes with lots of attack? Tauros, one of my favorite pokes, is probably the most famous user of the Choice Band (aside from Slaking), and still poses a threat in D/P. His attack, however, is actually lower than Scyther's - 100 to 110. Aerodactyl is another similar example. Those two pokes have relatively horrible defenses, and are still known as some of the best CBers ever. Anyways, the point is, CB is mainly used to boost an OK-attack to godly levels.
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Unlike Scyther Tauros had better moves. Return was essentially the same base power as STAB HP Bug WITHOUT factoring in Tauron' normal STAB. Earthquake and Rock Slide provided better options that Aerial Ace and Brick Break.

A CBer's power is not determined solely by its Base attack, but by the Base Power of the moves it possesses. Return easily beat out anything Scyther could do without an SE hit, and Earthquake was more powerful than Aerial Ace even after factoring Scyther's STAB.

When I used Scyther, I used it for BP and threw HP Bug on there in case I needed to ward off Smelebi.
 
There's really no comparison. Scizor is MUCH better for a variety of reasons, most notably Stealth Rock. And anyone who thinks a Choice Band Scizor isn't viable has obviously not ran into one. It's single handedly won me many battles because late game, there's not much that can stand up to a CB Iron Head.
 
OldSchoolNub said:
There's really no comparison. Scizor is MUCH better for a variety of reasons, most notably Stealth Rock. And anyone who thinks a Choice Band Scizor isn't viable has obviously not ran into one. It's single handedly won me many battles because late game, there's not much that can stand up to a CB Iron Head.
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Oh yes, I've used CB Scizor and it's an outright beast, especially with technician boosting Aerial Ace, Pursuit, and Double Hit.
 
Technician doesn't boost Pursuit if they switch, so it has 60 or 80 power, not 60 or 120.
 
Rebuttal towards preference of Scizor

Better_Sandw1ch said:
I'm currently going through the process of putting a team together involving Scizor, and I happened to take a look at Scyther's page on Serebii while I was at it. I was slightly surprised to find that the two had an equal amount of total base stats. In fact, looking at it, it seemed to me that if anything Scyther had a better distribution than his evolution, losing some attack and defense in return for a speed stat that outruns a good portion of pokemon. So which one is more viable to use?
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The biggest problem with Scyther is that it has a middling speed which can be easily beaten by common sweepers in the metagame right now, and it can't really come in on anything except perhaps a revenge kill. At 105 base http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23432
It registers as a blip on the radar, requiring it to run Jolly 252 to maintain a competitive speed at its rank. Infernape (Naive/Jolly/Hasty) will always outrun with standard builds, not to mention Gengar/Azelf/Starmie/Raikou. All of which can come in to revenge kill/set up.

"Some attack and defense" Equates to (when all things are neutral (aka Hardy nature)) 40 attack points and 40 defense points at lvl 100. That being said, Scyther is easily walled by most rock and steel types while the inclusion of STAB Iron Head allows Scizor to forgo the usage of a lackluster non-technician non-stab Brick Break in lieu of a Stat boosting ability (Agility/Swords Dance come to mind). The big threats that Brick Break is meant to deal with are handled easily by X-Scissor/Iron Head/U-turn anyway. (Tyranitar/Weavile come to mind). Steels that are weak to Brick Break are usually things that Scyther has no business staying in on, (Heatran and Magnezone come to mind, Heatran outspeeding with a Choice Scarf, Magnezone easily surviving non-stab non-choice band Brick Break and hitting back with a fatal thunderbolt)

The obvious advantage Scizor gains is his typing - Steel/Bug suffers only one uncommon weakness (albeit 4X) in fire, and has resistances to normal, grass (4X, making him great with a Swampert), Ice, Psychic, Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Dark, and a poison immunity to boot. Bug/Flying, on the other hand, is notorious for being one of the worst combinations in the game, packing weaknesses to fire, electric, ice, flying, and worst of all, 4X rock. However, it's resistances, while more limited, are stronger in some regards than Scizor's; 4X grass, 4X fighting, and complete immunity to ground (and a bug resist :p).
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Uh, how is Scyther's 4x Grass resistance with less defense "stronger in some regards" than Scizor's 4x Grass resistance. Same with the 2x Resist to Bug. This quote should actually read:

The obvious advantage Scizor gains is his typing - Steel/Bug suffers only one uncommon weakness (albeit 4X) in Fire (Scyther shares a 2x weakness to fire and with its defenses cannot take any metagame standard fire move (Flare Blitz, Overheat come to mind) anyway using a 252/252 att/speed build), and has resistances to Normal, Grass 4X, Ice (in an environment swarming with Garchomp/Salamence counters), Psychic, Bug, Ghost, Dragon, Dark (covering the new Physical Crunch and addition of Night Slash), and a Poison immunity to boot. Bug/Flying, on the other hand, is notorious for being one of the worst combinations in the game, packing weaknesses to Fire, Electric, Ice, Flying, and worst of all, 4X Rock. However, it's resistances, while far more limited, are stronger, in rare instances, than Scizor's; 4X Grass (Which Scizor shares), 4X fighting (Who have commonly carried Rockslide and now Stone Edge), and complete immunity to ground (and a bug resist :p).
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It also doesn't help that Scyther takes 50% from Stealth Rocks which basically what teams must be built to handle or dole out nowadays. (Common Stealth Rockers being Hippowdon and Bronzong, or even Blissey). But the fact that you must use it as a starter to ensure that it doesn't switch-in to 50% damage also screams "Switch-in a physical wall that can set up Stealth Rock on me to ensure my limited usage!" It's a double-edged sword. If you don't choose to Choice Band you deal middling damage on non-STAB attacks and are easily Walled/Set up on by Pokemon that simply recover off the damage or destroy you with priority moves (Dusknoir laughs at Pursuit and Will o' Wisps to destroy any chance of sweeping, Donphan/Mamoswine are fairly happy to CB-Ice Shard you)

So why use Scyther over Scizor? Speed makes more of a difference than one would think. While Scizor is likely forced to absorb two hits (unless he is Scarfed) before he gets an attack when he switches in, Scyther will usually get the jump on his opponent the turn after he switches in, meaning he can actually serve as a decent counter to pokemon that are middle-of-the-road in terms of speed. Not only that, but by switching in on a predicted fighting or ground move (very common attack types), Scyther takes notably less damage than a switching Scizor (who would take normal damage to those attacks).
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D/P is, in all actuality, a fairly Bi-polar metagame, while one spectrum strives to reach faster and faster speeds via nature and Choice scarf (try to find one RMT without a Timid/Jolly/Naive Pokemon, I dare you) the other spectrum is running Impish/Bold/Relaxed 252/252 HP Defense like it's going out of style, Trick Room teams are everywhere, and relying on speedsters that don't bust Bronzong/Dusknoir (and by proxy threats such as Rhyperior or Rampardos) wide open can be a liability to anyone.

another big issue is switching in: Sure, Scarf-less Scizor will take 2 hits before it can attack if the target stays in, but I would put money down that it has the resources to survive those two hits, especially with a bulky 200+ HP EV investment. Scyther, on the other hand, falters to a 2 shot mentality on a neutral damage switch-in, most particularly in regards to the types that Scizor conveniently resists: Normal, Dragon, Ghost, Dark, Psychic. With Choice Specs and Nasty Plot introduced in 4th Generation, there are far harder hits in regards to these catagories, most particularly Tri-Attack, Draco Meteor, and the newly special Shadow Ball.

The biggest problem about "switching in on an Earthquake/Close Combat" is that the opponent is either ready/willing to take a shot at you with Stone Edge the next turn, or will just switch out. And since switching out is priority +7, it really doesn't matter the speed of the Scyther, without Pursuit it won't catch its fleeing quarry. Scizor on the other hand, may take advantage of the situation and judging with its resistances, can make easy determinations whether the opponent will decide to switch out, thus evening out the "speed" playing field.

If the opponent cannot attack Scyther with at least a neutral hit (a rarity given the plethora of moves pokemon with Close Combat/Earthquake fall back on for additional coverage), or knows for sure that Scyther (and its fairly limited move type range Bug/Flying/Dark/Fighting) will threaten and outspeed it for a potential KO it WILL flee. There is almost no question about that. The main advantage given to Scyther is that it can use this rare window as an opportunity to Stat Up. The main disadvantage is that, even statted up, it will not do fatal damage to the slow and likely 252/252 built physical walls that it faces.

I believe you're stuck on the "plain fact" that

with his speed Scyther can make better use of a CB set than his metallic counterpart (again, two hits versus one)
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When, considering you've turned the blind eye on the fact that Scizor has far more survivability without having to "invest" 252 Speed EVs just to remain competitive. It still outspeeds the majority of tanks in this Gen, who seem to love being base 50 and below, and with the option to run Jolly 252 Scarf, Scizor hits an enviable 379 Attack, 376 Speed. Safely outspeeding Timid 252 Azelf and Starmie, Timid 252 Alakazam and anything else below the 120 Base Speed tier.

EDITTED IN:
It is also crucial to add that Scizor with its laundry list of resistances and 20 more base Defense makes for a far better user of Roost than its preevolution Scyther, carrying with an Impish 252HP/252DEF/6Attack build a very respectable 344 HP/328 Defense/297 Attack, An Iron-Red Bug Tank if I'd ever seen one. Swap some numbers and natures around and you can get an Adamant 252 HP/252 Att/6 Def build, running 344 HP/237 Defense/394 Attack, more of a heavy Artillery that can take a hit and fire back with awesome force.

Wow, that was far longer than I thought it would be. But it's basically an analysis on the overall feel of D/P. Resist or be killed, outspeed or bulk out, run Scyther with rapid spin support and something that can kill ghosts or run Scizor with Heatran and demolish with Flash Fire procs.
 
SR messes up Scyther, but it's cooler in general and can sweep pretty well. Scizor, although lacking Flying STAB, can still do stuff decently with agility + life orb or so!
 
CB Scyther was pretty sweet in advance. Not game-winning or anything like that, but definitely fun and useable. Choice Band's for pokes with lots of attack? Tauros, one of my favorite pokes, is probably the most famous user of the Choice Band (aside from Slaking), and still poses a threat in D/P.CB Scyther was pretty sweet in advance. Not game-winning or anything like that, but definitely fun and useable. Choice Band's for pokes with lots of attack? Tauros, one of my favorite pokes, is probably the most famous user of the Choice Band (aside from Slaking), and still poses a threat in D/P.
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Reversal Scyther is game winning, so obviously CB scyther should not be considered since its not its best set and 1 gagillon other pokemon do it better. Tauros fits into my second category of pokemon with good attack and speed and solid defenses (intimidate, and 75/95/70 defenses). Also notice that Tauros is piss poor in this generation because so many popular pokemon resist or are immune to return and earthquake.

The biggest problem about "switching in on an Earthquake/Close Combat" is that the opponent is either ready/willing to take a shot at you with Stone Edge the next turn, or will just switch out.
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This is why the reversal set is good. They attack you, you just sub down until salac activates and then reversal/night slash them in the face. If they switch, swords dance and then sub down for a guranteed sweep. stealth rocks actually helps since it acts as two substitutes.

It's single handedly won me many battles because late game, there's not much that can stand up to a CB Iron Head.
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The same can be said of most choice banders... Also Iron Head is a terrible move that is resisted by water and steel types, the 2 most common types in OU battling. Not to mention electric types. The same can be said for bug attacks. Bug attacks are only good when you have a rock type attack, and steel attacks are only good when you have an earth attack, and scizor lacks both.
 
The only reason to compare Scyther to Scizor is because one evolves in the other, but seeing as that hardly really matters when playing competitively one might as well conclude you're talking about apples versus oranges. Although I do think Scizor is clearly the winner here - he was in Advance, and he is in D/P.

Random misconception clear-up:

In ADV, scyther was superior scizor because of speed
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Speed isn't everything in Advance. Case in point: Scizor was a BL there and Scyther is UU.

In ADV, scyther could sweep teams using substitute/swords dance/reversal @salac (I often swept OU teams that were expecting a CB scyther). The only thing scizor could do in ADV was baton pass.
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The incompetence of your opponent shouldn't be working in Scyther's favor here. Scizor uses Reversal in Advance just as effectively as Scyther in UU play (because you need less Spd there), but sadly Scizor is a borderline unlike Scyther so he wasn't even allowed there. Scizor still makes a good Choice Bander, and a very superior Baton Passer to Scyther. Scyther isn't that awesome as a Reversaler anyway considering it's not immune to Sand Storm and it's walled by Gligar in UU too.

While Scizor is likely forced to absorb two hits (unless he is Scarfed) before he gets an attack when he switches in, Scyther will usually get the jump on his opponent the turn after he switches in, meaning he can actually serve as a decent counter to pokemon that are middle-of-the-road in terms of speed.
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The only time Speed makes a difference is when you're going to die to an attack somewhere between now and soon. If Scyther needs his Speed to "counter" something then he just isn't a counter, plain and simple. Scizor counters more Pokemon than Scyther because of his great typing and Defense anyway. Scyther is weak to every move under the sun.

That said, Scyther can use Stealth Rock to his advantage in D/P for Reversal and Swarm, but when combined with Sand Stream he automatically becomes dead weight. Scizor got a huge ass movepool boost in D/P and his resistances (especially to Sandstorm) are all the more crucial now.

Bug attacks are only good when you have a rock type attack, and steel attacks are only good when you have an earth attack, and scizor lacks both.
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What nonsense. Scizor works fairly well without the need to sweep anything. Pursuit and U-Turn either kill something that switches out or helps you scout, even if they don't give great type coverage. Baton Passer sets don't even need an attacking move to function well per se. Steel is, indeed, a horrid attacking type.
 
I remember during the Advance game I used to pack both Scizor and Scyther on the same team. Scyther actually ended up outliving Scizor proving itself to be far more a threat when people soon caught onto Reversal sets and countering appropiately I was forced to find new uses.

Which brings me to another matter no-one has mentioned yet, losing Hidden Power. This is a massive blow to Scyther again, why? Well the particular set in question I ran was a HP Ground/Aerial Ace/Swords Dance/Baton Pass set. Now the beauty of that set was it essentially emulated the offensive typing of a DDdos but with the ability to play support when the odds weren't in its favour.

On the other hand Scizor's attacking options were Return and HP Bug...real great. Also its great typing didn't ammount as much back in ADV since it was less diverse and therefore EVERYONE had Fire Blast for Skarm. I actually believed Scyther was the superior of the two in Advance.

Now D/P has completely turned that on its head. Scyther now gets mauled by Stealth Rock and the high number of Sandstorms out there and all it gained was U-Turn and Technician on Aerial Ace.

Scizor on the other hand enjoys the less frequent use of fire moves, Iron Head and X-Scissor for new STAB and a recovery move which it uses more effectively.
 
TVboyCanti said:
In ADV, scyther was superior scizor because of speed, but in DP things have changed, most significantly, the addition of stealth rock, and the upgrade to sandstorm. In ADV, scyther could sweep teams using substitute/swords dance/reversal @salac (I often swept OU teams that were expecting a CB scyther). The only thing scizor could do in
ADV was baton pass.
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Very untrue. In the advance OU metagame Scizor was the better of the two for using reversal (and in my opinion, the best reversal user in OU) with Agility/Reversal/HP Ghost/Endure and Leichi for one obvious reason: It's steel typing. It's typing made the whole difference when considering to use any reversal pokemon - immunity to sandstorm makes or breaks any reversal user. I use that set in my current best OU team and it really takes down whole teams if you bring it in well on things like Swampert, Metagross and Tyranitar.
 
Forsety said:
On the other hand Scizor's attacking options were Return and HP Bug...real great.
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And what did Scyther get for a bug move?

Also its great typing didn't ammount as much back in ADV since it was less diverse and therefore EVERYONE had Fire Blast for Skarm. I actually believed Scyther was the superior of the two in Advance.
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You do realize Scyther is still weak to fire, right?
 
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