Salamence (QC 0/3)

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Disaster Area

formerly Piexplode
Hey also since Ditto is QC 2/3 and should be quick to finish when a QC looks at it, I figured it was fine starting this beast.
salamence-5.gif

How fucking cool is this pokemon :)

Overview
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-beats mega blaze
-wish, intimidate
-physical check
-sr weak, ice weak, toxic-vulnerable

WishMence
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name: WishMence
move 1: Wish
move 2: Protect / Roost
move 3: Dragon Tail
move 4: Toxic
ability: Intimidate
item: Leftivers
evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
nature: Impish

Moves
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- Wish for recovery, and can pass to other pokemon
- Protect helps with Wish recovery, Roost is better if you're afraid of phazing
- Toxic utility
- D Tail phazes, and off of its attack, even uninvested, hurts mega blaze a lot, phazes general set up sweepers. Prevents being taunt bait (vs roar). Doesn't affect fairies, but is fairy bait anyway.

Set Details
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- Evs to maximise defense to take physical hits as well as u can
Some Calcs:
+1 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 156-184 (39.6 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 131-154 (33.3 - 39.1%) -- 12.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 169-199 (43 - 50.6%)
-1 252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 116-138 (29.5 - 35.1%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 178-211 (45.2 - 53.6%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 75-88 (19 - 22.3%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Sacred Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence in Sun: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 97.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 200-238 (50.8 - 60.5%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 169-201 (43 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Teravolt Zekrom Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 242-288 (61.5 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Groudon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 148-176 (37.6 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Usage Tips
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- Send in as a repeated switch versus Blaziken, and when needed to pass wishes, versus other physical attackers such as Ekiller. Beware Ice type attackers, and strong special attackers. Phaze out boosting physical attackers other than those with super effective coverage.

Team Options
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- Hazards to abuse its phazing. Klefki pairs nicely as it appreciates the wish support
- An answer to xerneas, such as Poison Arceus, Klefki, or Aegislash.
- Strong switch-ins to powerful special attackers such as Kyogre, Palkia, etc. Palkia is a great answer to Kyogre, and Blissey is a good answer to Palkia, for example.

Other Options
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- An offensive set paired with Rayquaza and an answer to fairies such as Mega-Gengar or Poison Arceus could potentially work. It has a wide movepool, though some options are less viable in ubers. It has a wide variety of attacks, such as Outrage, Stone Edge, Earthquake, Fire Blast, et cetera, as well as other defensive moves such as refresh and roar, although it tends to be outclassed in an offensive role, and lacks the moveslots to fit some of its defensive options.

Checks & Counters
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- Ice type attacks, e.g. users of HP Ice (thundurus, skymin?), Kyurem-W (fears d tail), Kyogre's Ice Beam
- Strong special attackers (e.g. Palkia (fears d tail), Kyogre (has Ice Beam, but can overwhelm with its strongest attacks))
- Status - dislikes burn and paralysis, hates poisoning.
- Stealth Rock - dislikes it but it can still function[/hide][/hide]
 
Mence really has fallen these days. I'm not sure how viable this actually is but i noticed this set loses to Jolly LO Extremekiller, which is a large negative for a "physical wall" considering its the most seen physical attacker and its most common set. Banded Ho-Oh 2hkos after SR and in fact - Many calcs turn into 2HKOs after SR meaning if rocks are up Mence can't do its job, mandating a spinner or defog user. Even the one thing you claim Mence beats (Mega Blaziken) 2hkos after SR with Knock Off if it SD's on the switch (Not all Blaze run SD but it is still a large possibility). What can it actually do?
 
Well as a physical wall it's not a full counter to ekiller, merely a check. If you do lose it to ekiller then it's only at +1, and then something else on your team can generally handle it. I never claimed it was an ekiller counter, just a check.

SD + Knock Off is really rare thankfully, given that most people run protect nowadays as otherwise it's poor as a revenge-killer. Okay so yeah it kinda struggles versus that variant, but bear in mind that it should be played to switch in as soon as blaze comes in on something it can set up on, and dragon tail is reasonably powerful; basically, it doesn't matter. And even if you do stay in when it SD's with something that's bait, you just have to not carry stuff that's total mega blaze bait that's weak to knock off but not flare blitz or low kick.. but that's like only gira-O, and even then it's not usually staying in.


Basically, it should be switched aggressively, and then that doesn't matter.
 
This is the set I've been using on Mence:

FatMence
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name: FatMence
move 1: Roar
move 2: Roost
move 3: Draco Meteor
move 4: Fire Blast / Toxic
ability: Intimidate
item: Leftivers
evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spd
nature: Bold

I prefer Roar over Dragon Tail since you are not complete Xern fodder (they can just kill you with Moonblast, but at least you can prevent it setting up Geomancy if you really can't afford to at the time). I do like Draco Meteor just because you can deal quite a lot of damage to Blaziken (at least enough so you can pick it off with priority afterwards or make sure it dies to Flare Blitz recoil). I used Fire Blast since it prevents Klefki from setting up Spikes too easily (and does well against shitty Swagplay too), but I'm moving toward Toxic to cripple shit.
 
I seriously think physically defensive Clefable and Quagsire are both better than this mon. Why exactly would I use it?
 
Not QC, but this is one of my favorite fun mons so I thought I would share my thoughts

I've actually used Salamence quite a bit from Scarf to my own variation of this defensive set, and albeit they are fun to use and can actually pull there weight when given correct support, a lot of other pokemon are much more consistent and can fulfill other niches outside of what mence can. Though mence has niches of its own to separate itself from other Ubers, these do not outweigh what it cannot perform when compared to Zekrom as a Scarfer, Rayquaza as a booster, and other walls that perform better such as the two Fireburn mentioned above. I actually considered mence for C- on the viability thread primarily due to Scarfs dangerous potential late-game with Gengar removing Fairies for it, but only having a Speed advantage and a wonderful ability in Moxie do not set this set apart enough in order for it to be considered ranked at all. Fatmence was fun last gen when you weren't running offensive Double Dragon and it formed interesting synergy with some other mons, notably Jirachi and Grass Arceus, but the steel nerf and the prevalence of Yveltal hurt this potential for synergy to the point where these odd but strangely effective cores cannot function in XY. It is a fun mon and can function well if it is played right and has the right support, but there are way to many things that out do it in every field sadly. Even though I will probably continue to use mence in XY, it is outdone by alot of other Ubers and it is hard to slot on a team in the first place. I cannot vouch for mence getting an analysis.

Edit: I personally prefer shrang's set over the one listed.
 
Fireburn you use it over clefable because it beats mega blaziken, (and also it's not especially gar weak) and over quagsire because it has wish. Also, neither of them possess phazing. The way I see it your competition is from other counters to mega blaziken, since you have to have that on most stall. These are : Lando-T/Hippo/Quagsire/Gyarados/Gliscor. Salamence is the only one with wish, as well as sharing the phazing option with hippo/gyara (but gyara has less reliable recovery options). Basically, as a consequence, Hippodown is really its closest competition, and essentially you sacrifice stealth rock and beating zekrom, for using wish. You can still beat zekrom without having poor synergy by packing arceus-grass, and klefki pairs really well as it loves the wishpassing, and has lower base HP than salamence. So that's why you would use that set.

I think shrang's one is interesting too, but I'm not as sure why you would use it over hippodown, apart from different offensive options.
 
Ash Borer said:
this thing gets defog btw

i tried to make a case for it in OU but they all called me a crazy retard.
Click to expand...
Well you can always play Ubers. We won't call you names. Promise.

I made a stall team to test out this mon and while I have only had a few battles with the team it has enlightened me to why you would ever use this thing. Simply put, it looks really cool. And if that wasn't enough it's not bad at Wish passing (if only it passed greater lumps), and best of all most people don't really know what to expect. I realize that only the second point is any actual plus to viability but there might be something to this. We need more Wish passers in Ubers so that Swaggkeys Klefki can keep on going.
 
Fireburn said:
I seriously think physically defensive Clefable and Quagsire are both better than this mon. Why exactly would I use it?
Click to expand...
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Groudon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 148-176 (37.5 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

yum.

As a side note, I'd get rid of Wish or slash Earthquake since it helps against Klefki, Heatran and Aegislash. If doing so, getting rid of protect is also good, I first thought of running Wish mence when making a team with BKC but we figured out Roost > Wish was better overall.
 
Edgar said:
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 178-211 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Groudon Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 148-176 (37.5 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

yum.

As a side note, I'd get rid of Wish or slash Earthquake since it helps against Klefki, Heatran and Aegislash. If doing so, getting rid of protect is also good, I first thought of running Wish mence when making a team with BKC but we figured out Roost > Wish was better overall.
Click to expand...

Oh that's actually kinda cute. I'll give shrang's set a shot.
 
There certainly seems to be an option to run either a dedicated wish supporter like I posted or some offensive variant like shrang's or edgars. The question for the QC team is are either, or both, viable? :)
 
I don't like Wish here when you have the perfectly fine Roost and when Mence's HP is too low for that Wish support to be much use.

Defog is interesting on Mence since it can switch into the Ground-types pretty well. Toxic sucks, though, and you undo your own hazards for Dtail so not sure if it should be a main slash.

Running EQ to hit steel-types and getting chip damage on fairy-types sounds like a pretty good option.
 
I've been running a set recently of EQ/Roost/Defog/Dragon Tail and tht gives you a pretty nice mixture of all of its traits, with Wish being moves mention worthy.. then again dragon tail becomes kind of unnessecary. So I think something like
Earthquake
Roost
Roar/Dragon Tail
Defog/Wish
Depending on the sort of support you need, with Protect being mentioned OO with Wish. EQ hits blaze, tran, and keys, and yeah this is generally pretty cool. Opinions melee? Maybe Toxic also getting a slash in the last slot.
 
I agree that Earthquake is kinda necessary, without it Salamence can't actually KO Blaziken (Dragon Tail/Draco Meteor is Xerneas bait). I also think Toxic could work depending on the opponents choice of switch in, a steel type switching into Toxic makes Salamence cry though unless its Heatran.

EDIT: also Gliscor makes this set cry.
 
this poke is the epitome of niche and is, in most cases, an inferior giratina-o. its few perks, such as the ability to take on ho-oh and some other pkmn slightly better due to intimidate, are negligible because its offensive prowess is far worse and it is an awful wish passer. being able to use mega gengar or arceus ghost as a partner isn't good enough reason to justify using it. fire blast is its most distinguishable quality, but is roasting ferrothorn and scizor really worth losing out on so much more?

rejected 1/3
 
Eh I agree mostly although you neglected to mention mence's roost which allows it to be a part of the game for longer than giratina-O, but I'm aware that even still due to its poorer typing the effect's fairly negligible.
 
dice said:
this poke is the epitome of niche and is, in most cases, an inferior giratina-o. its few perks, such as the ability to take on ho-oh and some other pkmn slightly better due to intimidate, are negligible because its offensive prowess is far worse and it is an awful wish passer. being able to use mega gengar or arceus ghost as a partner isn't good enough reason to justify using it. fire blast is its most distinguishable quality, but is roasting ferrothorn and scizor really worth losing out on so much more?

rejected 1/3
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I'd like to disagree, for one key reason.

Mence can run roost+fog. Now, if gira-o is using defog, what's it going to do for recovery? Restalk? Then it's running a grand total of one attack, i.e. lolbait city. So mence can fill its role and defog while taking hits and sticking around, while not being lolbait.

But, you do make a good point. I think the set needs to be fire blast(maybe flamethrower) d-tail/roost/defog. Now, sally is the fogger that beats a lot of hazards users. That might just be enough. Ken can just get d-tailed anyhow.
 
Personally, I think Salamence is a pretty fun mon to use, but I can see Dice's point about how Giratina-O does most of its jobs better. I would like to hold off on a rejection for now since OR/AS is coming out relatively soon, and as far as we can tell, Mega Salamence looks like it would be pretty good.
 
And likewise not only does physically defensively salamence still have a small niche, the surpise factor introduced should the mega be viable (as well as making it viable that it might be able to force out mega blaziken when used on an offensive team, which is an usable niche if not a great one) and the possible knock off-boost-impunity (?) would help it be a little bit more viable.
 
ORAS is still two months away - I don't particularly see the harm in rejecting this now, it's easy to make a new thread if Mega Salamence does turn out to be viable and it's likely a lot of the analyses will need revamping to some degree when ORAS comes around. No sense in cluttering up the subforum.

Btw I am going to reject this. I've tried several times to make a decent team with this Pokemon but its weaknesses are many and Giratina-O mostly outclasses it in this role. It's inability to check Zekrom also makes me leery of using it instead of stuff like Gliscor/Lando-T who cover a lot of the same Pokemon as well.

You are welcome to give this mon another chance when ORAS is released though.

QC Rejected 2/3
 
Yeah there's no point on having an analysis of it if there's no only one viable set and it's hard to fit on a team (I still think Wish is garbage)

QC Rejected 3/3 :[
 
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