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Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Ever wanted to discover how an entire core series game being thrown at you was like through a chaotic mix of Pokémon, moves, and abilities? Ever wanted to maximize the true potential of any Pokémon by having them customized in your preference? Ever wanted to take one step above Anything Goes into a field where the best of the best matches are made from your own customizations? If you answered yes to any of these questions this thread just might be for you! Welcome to Hackmons, otherwise known as Pure Hackmons!
Premise: Anything directly hackable onto a set (EVs, IVs, forme, ability, item, and move) and is usable in local battles is allowed.
This is not Balanced Hackmons. Balanced Hackmons holds a banlist for the purpose of having a less centralized variant of Hackmons. For Generation 8 Balanced Hackmons, check out the Balanced Hackmons thread.
This is also not Anything Goes. Anything Goes is exclusive to legal Pokémon. For Generation 8 Anything Goes, check out the Anything Goes thread.
➥ Although the Galar Dex format is hosted in this forum Anything Goes is primarily hosted as a National Dex format. If you are wanting to go there instead, check out the National Dex Anything Goes thread.
Clauses: Team Preview, Endless Battle Clause
Rules for Posting:
1)All forum rules still apply. Make sure you read and follow them.
2)Don't post a set without any specific explanation of what it does. Your post will be deleted otherwise. If you are going to post about a specific set, it is greatly advised that you post with great detail of what exactly your set does, how it affects specific Pokémon, and why. You can't just simply say Wonder Guard Burn Up Cinderace is the best because it cannot faint when the case is far from true and you lack sufficient evidence.
3) Be civil and on topic when posting on this thread.
FAQ:
Q: Is this Custom Game? A: No. Custom Game is based on what the Pokémon Showdown teambuilder is capable of, while Hackmons is based around what is hackable in game and usable in local battles. Specifically, in Hackmons you are limited to a maximum level of 100, a maximum of 4 moves, a maximum of 6 Pokemon, and Showdown specific moves and abilities such as Paleo Wave and Rebound are unusable, while in Custom Game there is a max level of 9999, the maximum number of moves is 24, the maximum number of Pokemon is 24, and Showdown specific moves and abilities are usable.
QP1: Can I make my Pokémon invincible? AP1: Eternamax can be made partially invincible by a choice between being invincible against physical base power moves and being invincible against special base power moves. A player is able to make this decision by giving their Eternamax 240 EVs in either Defense or Special Defense and then giving this same stat a "+" nature.
+SpD Eternamax
Eternatus-Eternamax @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 240 SpD / 252 Spe
Careful Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Spikes
- Final Gambit
- Whirlwind
+Def Eternamax
Eternatus-Eternamax @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Impish Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Spikes
- Final Gambit
- Whirlwind
QP2: Can I make my Pokémon fully invincible? AP2: No Pokémon can be made fully invincible, and most gimmicky attempts in having them done end up bringing no impact towards the competitive metagame. Wonder Guard + Burn Up and Sturdy Shedinja are not reliable options.
Q: Why is there an Endless Battle Clause? A: Endless Battle Clause exists in every Showdown metagame to prevent battles taking too long and lagging the server. This acts similar to the in-game timer system, but more loose, meaning battles can extend further with Endless Battle Clause than it could with in-game timer.
Welcome to the Pure Hackmons Viability Rankings. This is the first of many resources that are made to help players determine what can be considered viable in the metagame. These rankings are placed in alphabetical order. Anyone is free to put their thoughts on any Pokemon and debate on whether or not they need a rank change as long as they are being reasonable. The council will then take thought into each nomination and carefully form decisions regarding them. Provide clear evidence for reasons why a Pokemon should have a change in rank, and be civil about it. We want what we can believe to be the closer to fact than subjective opinions.
As time passes these ranks will be given clear, legible definitions and the rankings on each Pokemon will become strongly based on their correspondence to those definitions.
Eternamax Rank - [Tip: Run at least one of these on every single team. Preferably 2-3.]
Eternatus-Eternamax
Eternamax is literally Gen 8 Pure Hackmons as a Pokemon. With an immense BST of 1125, defenses higher than Ultra Necrozma's entire statspread combined, and stat overflow leaving it invincible in either Defense or Special Defense, it's been given no other choice other than to embody the entire metagame. Everything in Pure Hackmons revolves around defeating this beast whether it's through the use of OHKO moves, Shell Smash + Mixed Super Effective Psychic-type/Dragon-type/Ice-type STAB attacks, Perish Song, Comaphazing, Hazards, or Final Gambit. These methods are often made into full-on strategies used in complete teams to win because this Pokemon's presence single-handedly makes them the only wincons. Eternatus-Eternamax also heavily dictates the entire Viability Rankings. The only Pokemon who are viable are Eternamax, Pokemon who support Eternamax, Pokemon who have methods against Eternamax, and Pokemon who have counteractions to methods against Eternamax. Last but not least, teams without Eternatus-Eternamax are put into a critical disadvantage due to Eternamax being the only Pokemon fully capable of dealing with the entire rest of the metagame. Thanks to Neutralizing Gas, Regieleki, Zacian-Crowned, and Calyrex-Shadow would break the metagame to the point where players could easily win with no effort if their opponent fails to carry Eternamax. Eternamax is mandatory in every team and almost every action taken for victory reflects on its presence.
In summary, not only is Eternamax mandatory in each team, but players have to take Eternamax into consideration in every step they take, whether it's through teambuilding or playing the game, and Eternamax significantly warps the entire Gen 8 Pure Hackmons Viability Rankings. Eternamax can arguably be considered as the most centralizing Pokemon to ever exist in any tier or OM format and it goes way beyond any Pokemon that would usually lie in S or S+ in other Viability Rankings.
S Rank - [Tip: Consider these on most if not every team.]
S+
Regieleki
S
Zacian-Crowned
S-
None
A Rank - [Tip: Consider these on plenty if not most of your teams.] A+
Calyrex-Shadow
Giratina
A
Cramorant-Gorging
Giratina-Origin
Landorus-Therian
Spiritomb
Yveltal
A-
Aegislash
Doublade
Grimmsnarl
Obstagoon
Regigigas
B Rank - [Tip: Usable but difficult to pull off effectively.] B+
Eiscue
Kyurem-Black
B
Corviknight
Drapion
Drifblim
Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
Rayquaza
B-
Mewtwo
Mimikyu
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Reshiram
C Rank - [Tip: Only use these if your purpose is to fulfill a small niche.] C+
Dragapult
Gyarados
C
Braviary
Gourgeist-Super
C-
Hydreigon
Krookodile
Zarude
E Rank- [Tip: Not worth using but you can try. This is Pure Hackmons after all! You may find something that works against some teams.]
Everything else
Blacklist: Popular ideas that are forbidden from discussion or ever being considered above E rank.
Shedinja
Shedinja is a useless sitting duck against every serious Pure Hackmons team. The idea of giving Sturdy to a Pokemon with 1 HP is tempting, but Neutralizing Gas is on more Pokemon than not, shutting down Sturdy and allowing Shedinja to get KOed for free. In addition, Gen 8 Pure Hackmons is a metagame flooded with Ghost-types who block Endeavor, hazards that KO Shedinja in one touch, and phazing to force Shedinja out in front of hazards at random. Against serious teams, Shedinja cannot do anything other than faint. The combination of Ghost-types, hazards, phazing, and especially Neutralizing Gas make Shedinja outright impossible to properly use. It only works at all against opponents whose team is not prepared for the Gen 8 Pure Hackmons metagame.
Wonder Guard Burn Up
Wonder Guard Burn Up users are useless sitting ducks against every serious Pure Hackmons team. The idea of removing a Wonder Guard's typing to block all attacks is temping, but Neutralizing Gas is on more Pokemon than not, shutting down Wonder Guard and allowing Burn Up users to get KOed for free. Wonder Guard users require Gastro Acid in Gen 8 Pure Hackmons, and Burn Up only just adds fire to the flame. Burn Up users would be left with two moves left to use and the fastest user Cinderace is still outsped by Calyrex-Shadow, Eternatus-Eternamax, Zacian-Crowned, and Regieleki. All three of them can either use Substitute to work around Gastro Acid and fizzle out their Burn Up or outspeed, attack, and switch out. Wonder Guards with better type combinations do not need to rely on Burn Up and can run a third move to work around their flaws more effectively. They also tend to have better stat distributions for Wonder Guards in Gen 8 Pure Hackmons. Here is a more detailed explanation of why Burn Up is not good: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pure-hackmons.3656851/page-3#post-8375359
Starting off with some of my current insight on the new metagame then within the new few days a list of changes between this and the last gen.
Splitting this off into parts because I didn't realize how much I was gonna throw out until two hours into this post.
Part 1: The Eternamax Meta
Neutralizing Gas has become the new main centralizing force of the metagame succeeding after the several previous generations of Wonder Guard and No Guard. What this ability does is shut every other ability down in its presence allowing those with a particular great stat or stat spread to thrive. Pokémon with high offenses who to set up, can much easier. Pokémon who want to wall as much of the meta as they want, also can much easier. All other abilities are shut down whether they're for utility, boosting offenses, or boosting defenses. Pokémon will have to run ability-changing moves such as Gastro Acid and Entrainment for their own ability to be effective in battle.
Examples of widely affected abilities: No Guard, Wonder Guard, Shadow Tag, Innards Out, Imposter, Huge Power, Pure Power
Stats: 255/115/250/125/250/130
BST: 1125
This is Eternatus-Eternamax, the new Pokémon well-known for its base stat total and stat spread! With the combination of 255/250/250 defenses and Neutralizing Gas, this beast becomes the most centralizing Pokémon in the entire metagame. Everything else would have to prepare for it or its checks in some form or fashion and in the case of every offense Pokémon, offense stat boosts are required to do a decent amount of damage to it. Powerful Pokémon with super effective STAB moves such as Kyurem-Black, Kyurem-White, Necrozma-Dawn-Wings, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen don't require as intensive of stat boosts.
While its stats are currently nothing but godly with defenses that might as well equal entire planets, there are still flaws this Pokémon has which may become well apparent if anyone tries running a team of 6 Eternatus-Eternamax.
First of all, its Poison/Dragon combination is weak to both Sheer Cold and Fissure. Any Pokémon with No Guard and Gastro Acid can at least potentially threaten it depending on Eternatus's moves and the user's Pokémon. Wonder Guard is virtually pointless on Eternatus-Eternamax if it's weak to two of the most common OHKO moves and chances are, you may still want to run at least one or two Wonder Guards to keep No Guard in check. While Neutralizing Gas forces No Guard and Wonder Guard to become less centralized here, with Gastro Acid or Entrainment they will still very well be present.
Secondly, a big case of 4-Moveslot Syndrome can be sensed here and Eternatus-Eternamax may often get stuck not knowing what it wants to run...
Personally since it's significantly difficult for most Pokémon to take down without stat boosts, I suggest all of you to give Spectral Thief to at least one Eternamax set. Lots of Pokémon, including opposing Eternatus-Eternamax, are going to try setting up in front of this and stealing their stat boosts could help out against this. Haze could work too but it doesn't necessarily punish the opposition for spamming setup as often nor helps you defeat other Eternatus-Eternamax much in the long run. Aside from these stat stealing or stat clearing moves Eternatus-Eternamax may want to run pivot, setup, STAB, coverage, recovery, and utility moves all at the same time to utilize its stats. On another note its items become more notably restricted as the checks it does have become vicious. They are likely going to run Shed Shell to stop perish STAG, Memory items to get through Normalize, Lum Berry/Safety Goggles to bypass several turns of sleep, or maybe even Mental Herb on full utility/stall sets to take a break from Taunt. With each set and item there's going to be large opportunities individual Eternatus-Eternamax miss out on.
Thirdly, while Eternatus-Eternamax's defense stats are a complete godsend its offense stats are only just average. 115/125 offenses means this beast can't even do efficient damage to other Eternatus-Eternamax without setting up more than the likes of Kyurem-White, Kyurem-Black, Necrozma formes, Darmanitan-Galar-Zen, and even Drampa... This in combination of the dissuasion it could get from having a 1v1 against what's likely to carry Spectral Thief as a bulky but softer hitter means Eternatus-Eternamax is less likely to run setup moves than a few notable Pokémon listed below in the checks section.
Lastly, since Eternatus-Eternamax becomes the most centralizing Pokémon in the metagame over No Guard and Wonder Guard despite having an honestly bad typing for Hackmons, Neutralizing Gas is almost always going to be more effective for it than any other ability. Because of all the flaws listed above, without Neutralizing Gas, Eternatus-Eternamax bears a risk of allowing the likes of OHKO moves, Huge Power, Pure Power, Wonder Guards, or even Shadow Tag a much easier shot at beating it.
No Pokémon in Hackmons simply come without its checks. Here are a couple checks Eternatus-Eternamax could have to face off against in the new meta:
First comes Normalize Dragapult. Normalize Dragapult is able to outspeed, run Entrainment against Eternatus-Eternamax, set up, then use super effective Dragon-type moves. After the Entrainment most Eternatus-Eternamax sets will be unable to mess with this Dragapult offensively until they switch out. Memory items can be used to counteract but only at the potential cost of it being taken down by some other checks.
With Gastro Acid, Shadow Tag and trapping moves still threaten this Pokémon, especially since it has average offense stats. If Eternatus-Eternamax gets trapped and ends up being unable to escape, Perish Song could be used against it, leaving Eternatus-Eternamax knocked out after three turns. Since the 4-Moveslot Syndrome for Eternatus-Eternamax could have massive downside effects for it, trappers running Knock Off for Shed Shell could be a bigger thing for Hackmons.
For more defensive sets, powerful Pokémon Eternatus is weak to that are able to outspeed or take an attack can inflict sleep status then set up on it to perform high amounts of damage or OHKO. These include Kyurem formes, Necrozma formes, and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen. Gastro Acid will also definitely be usable for the ones with Huge Power/Pure Power.
Drampa and Indeedee are a particularly special case because they can inflict fair amounts of super effective damage to Eternatus-Eternamax while being able to set up easier do to their Normal-typing being immune to Spectral Thief. Drampa does more damage and is Dragon-type while Indeedee has better speed and could gain support from a Psychic Terrain move.
When combined with Gastro Acid, No Guard and Wonder Guard can threaten Eternatus-Eternamax in various ways. In No Guard's case, after Neutralizing Gas is removed, these Pokémon are able to launch some of the only moves in the game capable of OHKOing Eternatus-Eternamax. Best of all, without a Wonder Guard, if they switch out that only leaves the risk of one of their switchins getting knocked out by a 30% accuracy move. In the case of Wonder Guard, it could be used more offensively this gen since after Neutralizing Gas get removed, they're able to set up and either attack or use Baton Pass and after a couple of boosts they become far less threatened by any offensive capabilities Eternatus-Eternamax holds through its average offenses.
Summary: Neutralizing Gas Eternatus-Eternamax becomes the most centralizing Pokémon in the metagame. Other abilities may be sufficient but outclassed in regards to effectiveness.
These are all entirely my opinions.
Also alas, the dream comes true :) Hackmons finally has its own thread again!
Just wanted to offer up that this is incredibly exciting that PH now has its own current gen thread! :D
As for a few early thoughts, the returned presence of Neutralizing Gas in a Hackmons meta (now that it is banned in Gen 8 BH) will be quite interesting to see. I wonder if we will see a continued trend downward in the viability of Wonder Guard users as we did in Gen 7 PH (with the advent of crystal-free Z-moves [CFZs]). And with Mold-Breaking moves (and quite powerful ones at that) continuing into Gen 8, I wonder if this will continue.
The presence of Eternatus-Eternamax will undoubtedly draw the intrigue and interest of many towards Gen 8 PH, since of course it will be the only tier in which it is playable (except for Gen 8 Custom Game as a format, I suppose).
The absence of Mega Evolved Pokémon and Z-moves due to those no longer being hackable on cartridge will be fascinating to see. For starters, no Mega Mewtwo X in the meta will be...well, shocking. It has dominated Gen 6 and Gen 7 PH in such a way that its presence in the Gen 6 PH meta represented one of the most dominant meta controls by a single Pokémon. Additionally here, it will be fascinating to note the differences between the new Dynamaxing mechanic in Gen 8 and Z-moves in Gen 7 PH.
That's all for right now--I look forward to posting more in this new PH thread soon, and I'm excited to play some Gen 8 PH of course as well!
+2 252+ SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-White Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 698-824 (97.8 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Invalidated by NGas
Kyurem-White @ Life Orb / Expert Belt / Focus Sash
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Clanging Scales
- Earth Power
- Draco Meteor / Filler
Probably a better way of getting past Eternatmax - Eternamax must sleep (or KO, or Taunt) to prevent Kyruem from Smashing, unable to just Spectral away its boosts. +2 Dynamax Clanging Scales OHKOs after Rocks and item.
()
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 2/52 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Octolock
- Recover / Strength Sap
- Double Iron Bash
- Spore / Obstruct / Knock Off / Filler
On Pex/Corvi: Prankster Clangorous Soul + Baton Pass w. Goggles or Shed Shell
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. -1 248 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 216-254 (30.2 - 35.6%) -- approx. 25% chance to 3HKO
Potentially a way of brute forcing through non-dynamaxed Eternamax. Octolock and a 51% flinch chance from Double Iron Bash racks up damage real fast. Zacian-Crowned has a very good defensive typing and surprasses Magnerna in bulk, maybe able to break Eternamax sets. Other Pokemon can use Octolock's ability to bypass Magic Bounce to set up (or Perish Song) Eternamax.
dumb gimmick set, but if you are gonna be stalling...
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Heavy Duty Boots / Expert Belt
Ability: Pure Power / Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Icicle Crash
- Bolt Beak / Sunsteel Strike / Ice Shard
- U-Turn
One of the fastest threats in the meta (everything that outspeeds has an unfavorable matchup unless they Spore or have an SE attack), Darmanitan-Galar-Zen's power is fairly self explanatory. Defensive walls won't always run Neutralizing Gas in fear of Nomalize Dragpult, leading to a V-Create + Pure Power rampage.
+2 252+ SpA Icicle Plate Refrigerate Kyurem-White Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 698-824 (97.8 - 115.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Probably the best way of getting past Eternatmax - Eternamax must sleep (or KO, or Taunt) to prevent Kyruem from Smashing, unable to just Spectral away its boosts. Idk what would improof this, though.
()
Zacian-Crowned @ Rusted Sword
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 2/52 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Octolock
- Recover / Strength Sap
- Double Iron Bash
- Spore / Obstruct / Knock Off / Filler
On Pex/Corvi: Prankster Clangorous Soul + Baton Pass
+1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. -1 248 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 216-254 (30.2 - 35.6%) -- approx. 25% chance to 3HKO
Potentially a way of brute forcing through non-dynamaxed Eternamax. Octolock and a 51% flinch chance from Double Iron Bash racks up damage real fast. Zacian-Crowned has a very good defensive typing and surprasses Magnerna in bulk, maybe able to break Eternamax sets. Other Pokemon can use Octolock's ability to bypass Magic Bounce to set up (or Perish Song) Eternamax.
dumb gimmick set, but if you are gonna be stalling...
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Heavy Duty Boots / Expert Belt
Ability: Pure Power / Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- Icicle Crash
- Bolt Beak / Sunsteel Strike / Ice Shard
- U-Turn
One of the fastest threats in the meta (everything that outspeeds has an unfavorable matchup unless they Spore or have an SE attack), Darmanitan-Galar-Zen's power is fairly self explanatory. Defensive walls won't always run Neutralizing Gas in fear of Nomalize Dragpult, leading to a V-Create + Pure Power rampage.
On a serious note, Eternatus-Eternamax with Neutralizing Gas removes it’s STAB; so it won’t do much to Eternatus-Eternamax. I think it’s better to stick with Darm-Z-Galar so it can break even Nuetralizing Gas and give it:
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Expert Belt
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Belly Drum
- Icicle Crash
- Pyro Ball / V-Create
If you Dynamax Vs it, you only need +4, (say you got hit with King’s Shield on V-Create before you Dynamax). While under Dynamax, Hail finishes it off, so it KOs even if you hit the minimum damage roll, it goes down.
With +6 Attack under Dynamax
Screenshot bc it lists Darmanitan-Galar-Zen Mode as Abomasnow, for some reason... I used Receiver as an ability since I am treating it as VS Eternatus-Eternamax with Nustralizing Gas, negating any effect, and adjusted Icicle Crash as 130 base power to match Dynamax.
So happy to see Darmanitan-Zen Mode Galar listed as the top threat to the metagame defining Pokemon in the most over the top OM of all time. Eternatus-Eternamax won’t last an eternity... ;)
If you do plan to use a Kyurem, why not Unburden @ Sitrus Berry Kyurem-Black?
Overall, it is only afraid of Priority Attacks and Haze/Topsy-Turvey, as Sunsteel handles Wonder Guard, and after Unburden, it can outspeed No Guard, and likely KO them before they can click Fissure.
Clang Soul is a dumb move: the series ()
Type: Null @ Eviolite
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Boomburst
- Stored Power
- Clangorous Soul
- Recover
Lets take Type Null. Immunity to Spectral Thief. Boomburst STAB. Great Eviolite boosted defenses. Now lets give it the ability to boost all its stats by 1, turning it into a deadly, near impossible to stop breaker. Clangoros Soul can be used multiple times in a battle, and due to Type Null's bulk, is easy to set up. The only problem is its meddling speed, unable to recover from some threats after 1 Clang Soul. However, at least it can do this:
252 Atk Darmanitan-Zen-Galar V-create vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Type: Null: 187-222 (47.4 - 56.3%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
and outspeed after V-Creates defense drop. Type Null specifically might not be strong enough to threaten phasers (at least with +1), but then again we got Octolock trappers.
Eternatus is probably better (I made this set before we knew it was hackable) due to its absurd bulk and near perfect Dragon+Fire coverage, or just effective Stored Power + STAB. Indeedee gets Stored Power STAB, while Obstagoon gets Power Trip.
not all eterns will run ngas, so it will be effective
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-White Ice Burn vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 632-743 (88.5 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Unfortunately the 130bp dynamax ice beam doesn't OHKO, and neither does this under a SpD+ nature (though you can add Rocks and chip damage to make it so). This would be 140BP Dynamaxed Ice Burn here. Adaptability could give it the edge it needs on non NGAS, and you wouldn't switch into etern that would take aorund 90%.
And you ignore ngas with the kyu-b set too so eh, Speed Boost could be used to prevent 2kos
not all eterns will run ngas, so it will be effective
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-White Ice Burn vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 632-743 (88.5 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
Unfortunately the 130bp dynamax ice beam doesn't OHKO, and neither does this under a SpD+ nature. This would be 140BP Dynamaxed Ice Burn here. Adaptability could give it the edge it needs on non NGAS, and you wouldn't switch into etern that would take aorund 90%.
And you ignore ngas with the kyu-b set too so eh, Speed Boost could be used to prevent 2kos
mayyybe WG's exist so you want NGas (still OHKOs Etern, also breaks Unaware and stops impostor)
2. It’s already apparent that the Dynamax move wouldn’t be enough to KO it with Ice Moves after just 1 Shell Smash. Since Eternatus has = Defenses, having seen Belly Drum Darm-Z-Galar require Expert Belt just to KO under Dynamax is proof that you need at least +4 to KO. I went so far as to suggest replacing Kyurem-White completely and use Kyurem-Black:
“If you do plan to use a Kyurem, why not Unburden @ Sitrus Berry Kyurem-Black?”
Personally, there is a way to bypass it: I would rather give it Dynamax Cannon, since Eternatus-Eternamax qualifies as a Dynamax due to its actual form:
+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Kyurem-White Dynamax Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 899-1061 (125.9 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(I had to change base power to 200, since it doesn’t let you select the Eternamax form from the list of Pokemon).
Now you can KO Nuetralizing Gas after Shell Smash. I just figured Kyurem-Black is better since Ice has more coverage. You forgot about that move, didn’t you?
3. Since Darm-Z is the only super effective STAB threat to it bc it has enough power and Speed to outspeed and aim for the KO without fear of being hit first, I didn’t even factor in Pure Power, as I assume Neutralizing Gas.
Nevertheless, without Dynamaxing, it rarely, “if” ever (if being a +Def nature), KOs Etern if Etern has Nuetralizing Gas:
+6 252 Atk Expert Belt Darmanitan-Zen Mode Galar Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 612-722 (85.7 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (85 base power) *I had to change its name from Abomasnow again*
The stats are adjust to match the 255/250/250 variant form. So that’s why my last post’s Calcs all had Dynamax Icicle Crash at 130 base power in the damage Calcs.
So, I used Dynamax to make it 130 base power to ensure it does, and Pure Power on Darm-Z is for everything else. But yes Nuetralizing Gas is another option since it doesn’t pack Sunsteel/Photon.
——————
4. I didn’t ignore the Neutralizing Gas in my Kyurem-B set, as I directly acknowledge it just below the set:
“The key is that it will be Imposterproof to a tee, and except for not outspeeding Nuetralzing Gas variants, it can KO Eterneas with SR”
Speed boost doesn’t save it from Imposter, which would likely come in and force me to have to Imposterproof which is very hard off +6 Atk and taking Sunsteel. So Unburden is better since Imposter is more of a threat to the rest of my team than Nuetralizing Gas Eternatus.
Personally, there is a way to bypass it: I would rather give it Dynamax Cannon, since Eternatus-Eternamax qualifies as a Dynamax due to its actual form:
dynamax cannon (and the behemoths) do not dobule on eternamax, eternamax isn't treated as a dynamax in its base form
either way Draco Meteor is a more effective overall move (than Ice Burn) that still gets to 140 BP in Dynamax (just make sure to use expert belt/lo/draco plate)
the existence of ngas Etern makes kyu-b less efffective as a result as many teams will pack ngas was what i was trying to say, and the amount of teams iwth ngas etern invailidates both kyu sweeper sets. its still effective as a wincon
dynamax cannon (and the behemoths) do not dobule on eternamax, eternamax isn't treated as a dynamax in its base form
either way Draco Meteor is a more effective overall move (than Ice Burn) that still gets to 140 BP in Dynamax (just make sure to use expert belt/lo/draco plate)
the existence of ngas Etern makes kyu-b less efffective as a result as many teams will pack ngas was what i was trying to say, and the amount of teams iwth ngas etern invailidates both kyu sweeper sets. its still effective as a wincon
I would rather be Imposterproof, is what I am saying.
What can wall +6 Kyurem-B? Wonder Guard still takes +6 Sunsteel Strike, so that pretty much leaves Wonder Guard Eviolite Doublade with Spectral Thief since, fortunately, we don’t worry about Life Orb on Imposter:
+6 252+ Atk Kyurem-Black Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 105-124 (32.6 - 38.5%) -- 98.6% chance to 3HKO
Still, if Imposter Dynamaxes:
+6 252+ Atk Kyurem-Black Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Doublade: 136-161 (42.2 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
It becomes 130 base power and basically can 2HKO with minor chip.
So unless I want to rely on that, I would rather be Imposterproof via Unburden and use Kyurem-Black for other variants of Eternatus, and for much of the non-NGas metagame. Sunsteel bypasses Unaware, and Wonder Guard, so it’s not completely stopped if the foe has those other abilities that you also mentioned. The only other issue is Prankster, but then again, you could switch to Refrigerate.
let me be excited ok
the meta isn't even on ps yet until etern is undyanamxed
EDIT: Ultra Necrozma and the z-crystals are not in the game so the necro set is also illegal
Eternatus Eternamax doesn't have 714 HP, it has 1428 due to being permanently dynamaxed... This means very very little can even so much damage it
252+ Atk Life Orb Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus in 211-250 (14.8% - 17.5%) -
Additionally, Neutralising Gas shuts down most counterplay or things which could threaten it such as Imposter, Refrigerate, Huge Power and most importantly No Guard.
The only way to beat it is to beat it through raw power, which isn't possible without your own Eternatus-Eternamax.
Eternatus-Eternamax @ Leftovers
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Eternabeam
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Wave
- Blue Flare
Doesn’t Eternabeam require a recharge turn like Hyper Beam? At that point just use Clanging Scales or Draco Meteor and Life Orb. Solar Beam? Why? For Sun from Blue Flare? I don’t understand it.
Bulbapedia says it cannot Dynamax:
“When it is awake, Eternatus causes a phenomenon dubbed the Darkest Day, in which the massive quantities of Dynamax energy it unleashes causes Pokémon to Dynamax and rampage uncontrollably. Despite this, it cannot be Dynamaxed itself as its Eternamax form replaces that effect.”
So I don’t think it will be coded to allow that, similar to how Rayquaza-Mega couldn’t use a Z-move, even though Balanced Hackmons and Pure Hackmons is a Hacked variation of the game...
I just wanted to post a couple of sets/thoughts in here to get our brains working and to continue the excitement around this new thread and the Gen 8 PH meta! :)
First up is a cool set that I just considered the other day based upon my interest in a new Gen 8 ability called Perish Body. Undoubtedly, many of you have heard of this (particularly if you've spent some time investigating the Galar Dex new abilities), but for those less familiar, what it does is provided your Pokémon survives a physical attack from an opposing Pokémon, the ability causes both your Pokémon and your opponent's to faint in three turns (just like Perish Song, but this time it's induced via an ability). In a non-hacked/-manipulated tier, the only time you'll be able to use Perish Body as an ability currently is with Cursola, which is unfortunate considering its weak physical defense stat. However, this opens up possibilities for Hackmons to utilize! After some consideration, I landed on this set...
The logic here is of course Melmetal is a Pokémon with great HP/Atk/Def stats all around, but in particular, I wanted to utilize its great Def stat here for surviving a physically offensive attack. The idea with this set is to trap the opposing Pokémon with Anchor Shot after Perish Body has been activated. An additional benefit is that Melmetal happens to have a great Atk stat and Anchor Shot also gets STAB (Same Attack Attack Boost). Cotton Guard provides a significant increase in physical defense and Recover allows you to stall out a few physical attacks. Lastly, U-Turn is there in case you need a means to escape due to an opposing Shadow Tag or trapping move being used on you.
Additionally, I wanted to mention this as we've been having a couple of discussions about this in Old Shark. Ransei and I have been discussing the viability of Ice and Flying types in the meta. This is because in a meta where Eternatus-Eternamax is usable (and perhaps due to other reasons as well), OHKO moves are going to see an uptick in usage/viability. Pokémon like Delibird (Articuno is not guaranteed to be included in Gen 8 PH)--memey as they may sound--have immunity to both Sheer Cold and Fissure as OHKO moves. Horn Drill can hit them, but this can be remedied by running a Ghost type on your team. This may sound extreme, but if OHKO moves become the norm in the Gen 8 PH meta, this could help remedy the situation to a degree.
(Also, couple of quick side notes for those who may have some questions at this point since a purpose of this thread and other PH-specific places is to educate :)
-Max EVs--as with Gen 7 PH--are allowed as opposed to 510 in some other Gens of PH;
-In Gen 8 Pure Hackmons--as with other Hackmons formats--you can only use Pokémon, moves, and abilities that are hackable on cartridge. This means that Pokémon that were eliminated from the Galar Dex will not be accessible in the Gen 8 PH meta.)
Okay, that's it for now! Thanks for reading, and let's keep up the Hackmons fun!
short answer: yes
long answer: there's stuff like normalize dragpult and gastro wg/no guard around that make neutralizing gas a liabiltiy, forcing in magic bounce/prankster/etc., which in turn allows some other abilities like pure power. its centralizing but there are ways to beat it (nothing is banned in PH anyway)
I just wanted the pokemon showdown main server to make Pure Hackmons mode available again to play (ladder / challenges). Currently, you need to use the custom game format,
and for example, someone can load 5 moves (or more) and inside the battle using 4 moves and you will don't know with 100% accuracy (unless you have imposter / transform) if the person is playing honestly or not.
Anyway, it would be better, in my opinion, the real return to consecrate the tier once and for all in the simulator, especially with this boost of now.
Hello and Happy New Year to everyone reading! I wanted to get on with Imposter and its impact in the metagame but at the moment Eternatus-Eternamax is unable to be be transformed into and whether or not it should be like this is still a matter of question. For now, here's a guide to how you can currently play Pure Hackmons on PS!
As of now, Gen 8 Hackmons is most accessible to play through Custom Game challenges with other users. You can click on a username and challenge them to Gen 8 Custom Game. Bear in mind, while we can still play Pure Hackmons through Custom Game, that doesn't mean we're following Custom Game mechanics. You can still only run 4 moves on a team with a maximum of 6 Pokemon at levels no higher than 100. That is unless you're not playing Pure Hackmons.
Despite this format being most accessible through Custom Game, there are still problems with this.
Aside from the opportunity your opponent has to secretly carry four moves and such Generation 8 has had a large portion of moves removed from the Pokemon games. From what's left of these moves, Gamefreak imposed a limit that disables us to use ones that aren't naturally learned by any Pokemon. Balanced Hackmons has a validation system that checks each team to stop players from running moves no Pokemon can learn naturally. Custom Game doesn't have a validation system to check on these, so it's a lot more difficult to ensure you're running a legal Pure Hackmons team.
Most moves are followed by a list of Pokemon who could naturally learn them. If a particular move on this list is left blank without a list of Pokemon who could naturally learn them, the move cannot be used in Pure Hackmons.
For example:
380 Gastro Acid Snorlax, Shuckle, Seismitoad, Joltik, Galvantula, Pyukumuku, Chewtle Gastro Acid has a list of Pokemon who can naturally learn it. It can be used.
221 Sacred Fire Sacred Fire does not have a list of Pokemon who can naturally learn it. It cannot be used.
This is because in Pokemon Sword and Shield, moves that don't have a list of Pokemon who can naturally learn them always fail and are rendered unusable, even when they're hacked into another Pokemon.
Aside from challenges with other players, people can also play this format through roomtours, either through their own groupchat or for now, in Old Shark, a subroom built for old gen Hackmons.
The code below is the command to create a groupchat so you can have roomtours:
/makegroupchat
Here's a ruleset for Gen 8 Hackmons roomtours:
/tour new custom game, elimination
/tour ruleset -Nonexistent, +Eternatus-Eternamax
/tour name [Gen 8] Hackmons
This ruleset fixes the main problem challenging to Custom Game had by helping with move validation. This ensures players are only running usable moves.
That's all I have for today on this format. If you have any questions regarding the format or this post let me know. I will continue on with my insights shortly and skip the Imposter part for now.
Hey I'm triple-posting! We're almost a month into the metagame and have some more thoughts about the metagame to share, included revised thoughts from the previous insight post. It's another big one so get ready!
Neutralizing Gas has become the new main centralizing force of the metagame succeeding after the several previous generations of Wonder Guard and No Guard. What this ability does is shut every other ability down in its presence allowing those with a particular great stat or stat spread to thrive. Pokémon with high offenses who set up, can much easier. Pokémon who want to wall as much of the meta as they want, also can much easier. All other abilities are shut down whether they're for utility, boosting offenses, or boosting defenses. Pokémon will have to run ability-changing moves such as Gastro Acid and Entrainment for their own ability to be effective in battle.
Examples of widely affected abilities: No Guard, Wonder Guard, Shadow Tag, Innards Out, Imposter, Huge Power, Pure Power
Neutralizing Gas is exactly as described here and is by far the most centralizing ability in the entire metagame. From what we've seen it has drawn much more attention towards offense Pokemon like Kyurem-White, Darmanitan-Galar-Zen, and Indeedee, easily transforming them into potential monsters in battle.
After these Pokemon set up, abilities alone cannot stop them in any fashion and they may become catastrophic.
For Kyurem-White there has to be a Pokemon able to wall its moves at +2, even after it dynamaxes. I've found Primarina particularly useful for this as Kyurem-White tends to use Blizzard/Clanging Scales and Earth Power as its attacks. Primarina is Water/Fairy with high Special Defense for a Pokemon, so it could work. Otherwise I've seen it eradicate at least two to three other Pokemon in action each time.
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen is slightly trickier to deal with since it tends to use Belly Drum over Shell Smash. The best way of dealing with this Pokemon after a Belly Drum is easily just pulling out a Zamazenta, making sure it outspeeds after webs (with Heavy-Duty Boots or Choice Scarf), and running Close Combat. Otherwise it creates a highly similar impact Kyurem-White draws out in being able to tear down most if not all of the opposition right away, especially when dynamaxed.
Indeedee is trickier to use. You'll have to find a way to mange setting it up to x3 Atk, x3 SpA, and x3 Speed by using Shell Smash twice, which mostly requires at least two turns of sleep for your opponent. When you've managed to do that with Neutralizing Gas Indeedee, it becomes immensely difficult for your opponent to win since against everything it inflicts Stored Power or coverage for its walls.
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Expert Belt
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Icicle Crash
- V-create / Earthquake
- Spore
- Belly Drum
Expert Belt to deal more damage to Eternamax after setting up and dynamaxing.
Icicle Crash is the best physical Ice-type STAB move it can carry and is the main attack used for this set. OHKOs Eternamax when Dynamaxed at x4
V-Create for a base 180 Fire-type STAB move from x4 Atk. Almost nothing is able to wall it out. Earthquake is also immensely strong at x4 and helps against well... Coalossal if anyone tries using it against this beast.
Spore to inflict sleep as it needs to set up
and Belly Drum is the set up move used to give it x4 Atk. This cuts Darm's HP in half though.
Kyurem-White @ Expert Belt
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Spore
- Blizzard / Clanging Scales
- Earth Power
Expert Belt to deal more damage to Eternamax after setting up once and dynamaxing.
Shell Smash to set up Atk, SpA, and Speed (doesn't need the Atk)
Blizzard is a 110 BP Ice-type attack that can KO Eternamax, not miss under hail which is set after dynamax, and is able to hit Pokemon of all types. Kyurem-White is one of the main dynamaxers of the metagame anyway but Clanging Scales is just in case you may want to hold back on it.
Clanging Scales doesn't need to rely on dynamax to hit at full accuracy but is blocked by Fairy-types. Same power as Blizzard.
Earth Power to deal with Pokemon resisting Ice and Dragon (Steel-types especially)
Indeedee (M) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk
- Spore
- Shell Smash
- Stored Power
- Moonblast
Male Indeedee has better offense stats and speed to sweep.
Modest to boost damage output, can outspeed most of the opposition after setting up anyway, all of them after x3 in most cases.
Spore to inflict Pokemon to sleep so it can set up (there's a pattern)
Shell Smash to boost its stats...
You're gonna want to use Shell Smash twice to make this work, otherwise it's not able to OHKO Eternamax. Afterwards Stored Power ensures a KO.
Moonblast is for the Dark-types who are immune to Stored Power. I prefer it over Secret Sword atm just because it's stronger and the only real thing I've noticed Secret Sword being used over Moonblast so far is its possibility of dealing with Bisharp easier. Bisharp hasn't been seen in the metagame yet.
Here's a bonus Neutralizing Gas offense set. It'll be freed from the hide tag:
Eternatus-Eternamax @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Fissure
- Recover
- Horn Drill
- U-turn
I've found this set to be particularly scary if your opponent doesn't have Substitute because it can freely launch OHKO moves without getting harshly punished for missing them. It can take lots of damage, recover, and spout OHKO moves. It has a total of 16, with 2 OHKO moves having 30% accuracy. Using all of them it's likely to hit at least 5. It has Safety Goggles to not get put to sleep.
Fissure is a Ground-type OHKO move, helps against those who don't run Flying-type Pokemon
Horn Drill is a Normal-type OHKO move, helps against those who don't run Ghost-type Pokemon
Froslass is still not great in this meta. It's not strong offensively or defensively and is weak to the best utility damage moves of this entire metagame.
Sheer Cold now mostly requires a second OHKO move or a coverage attack since Ice-types are significantly more common in the form of Delibird, Darmanitan-Galar-Zen, and Kyurem formes.
Last but not least U-Turn is there for it to escape safely without the threat of facing a Taunt trapper.
Now speaking of this set I'll like to put in some details about OHKO moves.
This gen No Guard has mostly lost its filler move for a second OHKO or coverage move, since at this point Ice-types are significantly more common than in previous gens and are used to wall out Sheer Cold. All 3 OHKO moves have a group of Pokemon able to block them.
No Guard is still a large threat, and Wonder Guard is still by far the best option to fight off against these. Neutralizing Gas is NOT an effective way to check No Guard + OHKO moves. They reduce the accuracy of these moves to 30% but your Pokemon can still get hit. If that Pokemon gets hit, your chances of losing the dame drastically increase since you just lost a vital Pokemon. Neutralizing Gas spam may work against OHKO moves since in the end each of the Pokemon have a 30% chance of getting hit, but if you're running 1-2 Neutralizing Gas Pokemon and no Wonder Guards, you have no switchins and once one of the Neutralizing Gas Pokemon gets hit you lose the game almost automatically, so still be really cautious when considering checks for these types of Pokemon.
Next I'll like to bring up other important moves. These are what I think are the most important moves in the metagame, in no particular order. Spore - The only high accuracy sleep move in the entire metagame. The majority of sweepers will be running this for the best chance of setting up. Knock Off - A large portion of Pokemon will be carry Safety Goggles, Shed Shell, or Heavy-Duty Boots. This move knocks this and any other item out of the opposing Pokemon's hands to benefit your chances of inflicting status or hazard damage as well as being able to trap. It's also super effective against Indeedee. Gastro Acid* - If you're running an offense Pokemon that's not Neutralizing Gas, this move is arguably mandatory. Gastro Acid removes any and all abilities to help your Pokemon gain a lead. This move is absolutely necessary when faced off against Neutralizing Gas, as Pokemon with -ate abilities, Huge Power/Pure Power, Wonder Guard (Even that's put into offense use this gen), No Guard, or any other ability used for offense purposes are rendered entirely useless otherwise. Keep this in mind especially when posting -ate sets on the thread. -ate is likely not good this gen. Entrainment is in the same boat as Gastro Acid, just for Pokemon who'd like giving their own ability to the opponent, like Dragapult with Normalize. Spectral Thief - Good chances are your opponent is going to be setting up, a lot. Use this move to steal their stats while pulling off extra damage. Stealth Rock - This is a great hazard move that allows you to chip the opposing team more. In particular this helps for sweeping against sash users and Eternamax in many cases.
There are other important moves in the metagame but these should always be considered or thought about when teambuilding.
On back to Eternamax.
Eternamax... Well, I'm gonna have to be honest... this thing is... is... uh...
Actually from how it looks Eternamax seems to be the personification and spiritual successor of past gen Wonder Guard. Let me explain. Right now Eternamax is in a position where
It's one of the only if not the only thing preventing the metagame from becoming a complete HO-Fest (By restricting Neutralizing Gas offense)
Is the one of the most centralizing things in the entire metagame.
Its centralization is healthy for the metagame (Less random offensive Neutralizing Gas Pokemon setting up everywhere)
Tends to run lots of bulky utility support and cleric sets (Much less often runs moves in an attempt to sweep by itself)
Its optimal number is 2 (Less than two and you aren't easily able to provide enough support for your team. More than two and your team lacks offensive power and pressure)
Is quite lackluster offensivelyin most cases (115 Atk and 125 SpA isn't strong enough for the metagame. It gets walled by opposing Eternamax and has a difficult time setting up without getting its stats stolen or cleared)
Is virtually not getting taken down unless you hit it with super effective moves.
All of these traits perfectly describe Wonder Guard previous generations.
Wonder Guard blocks No Guard, which otherwise turned the metagame into a complete HO-Fest
Wonder Guard is one of the the most centralizing things in previous gen metagames
Its centralization is healthy for the metagame as it stops Huge Power/Pure Power + No Guard from becoming more destructive
Wonder Guard tends to run lots of bulky utility support and cleric sets over moves to sweep by itself
Its optimal number is 2, for the same reason as Eternamax
Wonder Guard Pokemon are quite lackluster offensively in most cases
Wonder Guard Pokemon are virtually not getting taken down unless you hit it with super effective moves.
Realizing this left me being quite stunned. Eternamax, while being the most centralizing Pokemon, if anything, is actually helping the metagame!
Anyway while I'm currently seeing it as a spiritual successor of Wonder Guard, don't take this the wrong way. There is still a major difference it has from it.
Eternamax cannot block Sheer Cold and Fissure due to its typing.
This alone means Eternamax makes for an awful Wonder Guard user the combination of this and its bulk makes Wonder Guard is entirely pointless on it. Don't use Wonder Guard Eternamax. Instead, treat it as a Wonder Guard for Neutralizing Gas offense :). Disclaimer: Under Dynamax Kyurem-White and Darmanitan-Galar can OHKO after they set up once, but when they're through with Dynamax Eternamax can still take one of their attacks especially depending on nature and the amount of HP Eternamax had beforehand. Other Pokemon should be used to take on their Dynamaxed formes. For example, Zamazenta is one of the greatest checks for Darmanitan-Galar-Zen, whereas Primarina can suffice against Kyurem-White.
Imposter:
Imposter Eternamax is still good, although difficult enough to use to the point where Transform may even be better. This move can even also be used on Imposter sets for when Imposter fails against Neutralizing Gas.
Transform takes up a moveslot but bypasses through the Neutralizing Gas ability, whereas Imposter does nothing if it's sent out in front of Neutralizing Gas. This is one of the abilities that require a Gastro Acid user somewhere but on a different Pokemon rather than the Imposter. Make sure you Imposterproof, especially your Wonder Guards since they'll likely have Gastro Acid to defend themselves.
Here is a replay to me choking against Funbot's Imposter as I'm seeing it successfully used for the first time: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1044589877. Thanks Funbot28
I've also seen Transform used successfully but I don't have a replay for that this time.
Imposter and Transform should be primarily used to scout the opponent's set or fish for a chance to counteract a potential sweep from Pokemon having to rely on Gastro Acid.
Last but not least I want to get to important items. These are some of the most important items you'll see in the meta: Safety Goggles - Because Spore is the only high accuracy sleep move in the metagame and it's a powder move, a large majority of the metagame's offensive and defensive Pokemon are going to be running this item. Blocking sleep status is a key to ensuring each Pokemon play their roles successfully. Shed Shell - Trapping abilities may still be present and trapping moves are more common than in previous generations thanks to Octolock. This item will likely be used on Pokemon carrying four attacks that do little to no direct damage without room for a pivoting move. Heavy-Duty Boots - Avoids webs, avoids rocks, avoids spikes. This item is helpful particularly on used Pokemon like Delibird and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen with a x4 weakness to rock, Pokemon who don't want to get slowed down by webs, and against teams carrying hefty amounts of hazards. Choice Scarf - Used to outspeed much of the opposition, resist webs, and is able to be tricked onto the opponent restricting their Pokemon to one attack. Expert Belt - Allows Kyurem-White and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen to KO Eternatus-Eternamax after setting up once Stealth Rocks are up.
Alright I'm done with posting more of my thoughts for now. I decided just to blow through and try simplifying this post since as I was thinking about it I knew it was going to be large. If anyone has any questions or you disagree with something you can ask here or in a dm with me on discord, smogon, or ps.
Both Kyu-W and Darm-G-Z require Expert Belt (or LO, or a plate) to reach important Dynamaxed KO values with Eternamax. Unless you want to set up multiple hazards its better to run EBelt.
I dont like Spore on Kyu-W. It doesn't need the moveslot as it needs to Smash once just to be faster than Eternamax. Sure it lets you get the 2nd smash up, and Kyu-W doesn't really need the moveslot for anything else, but i dont like it personally.
Entrainment is in the same boat as Gastro Acid, just for Pokemon who'd like giving their own ability to the opponent, like Dragapult with Neutralizing Gas.
Anyways, I wanna talk about Normalize Dragapult a little more:
While Dragapult is rather weak and easily checkable, it does provide a great role in the team. Forcing switches and racking up hazard damage.
Dragapult @ Dragon Memory / Ghost Memory
Ability: Normalize
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shell Smash / Super Fang
- Entrainment
- Multi-Attack
- Taunt / Swords Dance / Super Fang / Substitute / Fishious Rend
Disclaimer: I haven't tried these particular changes yet, but have had success with Taunt/Super Fang Zeraora.
Dragapult already is immune to Rapid Spin, and Defog/Court Change can't work if you Taunt them. Super Fang deals amazing chip damage for how bulky Eternamax is. Dragapult can be used early game to rack up chip damage and scout for whatever counters the opponent has, then become a wincon with its moveset. Taunt prevents Eternamax from simply healing off Super Fang/Hazard damage, though you have to continuously predict when you Taunt and when you Entrain. It still hard loses to any Magic Bounce, but Eternamax does not like Super Fang.
Normal Zamazenta's also pretty good - checks Darm-G-Z, Indeedee, and Kyu-W (Scarf outspeeds Modest Indeedee and Kyu-W, latter which KOs Etern.) Its superior to Zacian, who has the same stats, for this reason - though Zacian can do Pixilate stuff or block Dragon Kyu-W. You can use utility moves like Knock Off, Rapid Spin, Spore, Super Fang, and Nuzzle, or go for a No Guard set that Close Combats the Ice types that are immune to Sheer Cold. Close Combat (not Sacred Sword or Low Kick) is required to actually OHKO Darm-G-Z.
EDIT: Other stuff
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Extreme Speed / Earthquake / V-Create / Pyro Ball
- Belly Drum
- Spore
+6 Extreme Speed lets DGZ KO Zamazenta after either using Life Orb or 2 layers of spikes (its a lucky roll after 1 layer of spikes), as well as getting rid of water type walls like Gpod and Primaria. I can see ESpeed becoming somewhat common to beat DGZ's best offensive check. However, this makes DGZ more vunerable to walls like Melmetal and Aegislash, which can counter Dynamax and take +6 hits. Then again they're weak to getting hit by Spore after being knocked off.
Leftovers / Black Sludge: Leftovers allows passive healing even during Taunt which may be useful as Pokemon like Dragapult fish for hazard and Super Fang damage. As a bouns, Black Sludge wears down trick users (other than Eternamax) after using trick as they don't often have room to fit recovery in.
Why not use Boomburst on Indeedee? Is Moonblast for Wonder Guard Dark-types, like Sabeleye? The neutral damage off of STAB is more than UnSTABbed Moonblast 210 > 190.
The reasoning for not using Boomburst wasn’t mentioned in your post...
The best check to those sweepers you posted, is probably Scarf Imposter, especially Clanging Scales Kyurem-W, V-Create Darmanitan-Zen-Galar.
I feel if you replace Spore with Clanging Scales, you could easily use Throat Spray over Safety Goggles for the KO (rather than the Expert Belt or Plate or Life Orb Tmi489 suggested).
Lastly, I would suggest Assault Vest on Primarina if you need an Imposterproof for Throat Spray Kyurem-W, as the Assault Vest will basically negate the Throat Spray boost.
Hey I'm triple-posting! We're almost a month into the metagame and have some more thoughts about the metagame to share, included revised thoughts from the previous insight post. It's another big one so get ready!
Neutralizing Gas is exactly as described here and is by far the most centralizing ability in the entire metagame. From what we've seen it has drawn much more attention towards offense Pokemon like Kyurem-White, Darmanitan-Galar-Zen, and Indeedee, easily transforming them into potential monsters in battle.
After these Pokemon set up, abilities alone cannot stop them in any fashion and they may become catastrophic.
For Kyurem-White there has to be a Pokemon able to wall its moves at +2, even after it dynamaxes. I've found Primarina particularly useful for this as Kyurem-White tends to use Blizzard/Clanging Scales and Earth Power as its attacks. Primarina is Water/Fairy with high Special Defense for a Pokemon, so it could work. Otherwise I've seen it eradicate at least two to three other Pokemon in action each time.
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen is slightly trickier to deal with since it tends to use Belly Drum over Shell Smash. The best way of dealing with this Pokemon after a Belly Drum is easily just pulling out a Zamazenta, making sure it outspeeds after webs (with Heavy-Duty Boots or Choice Scarf), and running Close Combat. Otherwise it creates a highly similar impact Kyurem-White draws out in being able to tear down most if not all of the opposition right away, especially when dynamaxed.
Indeedee is trickier to use. You'll have to find a way to mange setting it up to x3 Atk, x3 SpA, and x3 Speed by using Shell Smash twice, which mostly requires at least two turns of sleep for your opponent. When you've managed to do that with Neutralizing Gas Indeedee, it becomes immensely difficult for your opponent to win since against everything it inflicts Stored Power or coverage for its walls.
Darmanitan-Galar-Zen @ Expert Belt
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Icicle Crash
- V-create / Earthquake
- Spore
- Belly Drum
Expert Belt to deal more damage to Eternamax after setting up and dynamaxing.
Icicle Crash is the best physical Ice-type STAB move it can carry and is the main attack used for this set. OHKOs Eternamax when Dynamaxed at x4
V-Create for a base 180 Fire-type STAB move from x4 Atk. Almost nothing is able to wall it out. Earthquake is also immensely strong at x4 and helps against well... Coalossal if anyone tries using it against this beast.
Spore to inflict sleep as it needs to set up
and Belly Drum is the set up move used to give it x4 Atk. This cuts Darm's HP in half though.
Kyurem-White @ Expert Belt
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Spore
- Blizzard / Clanging Scales
- Earth Power
Expert Belt to deal more damage to Eternamax after setting up once and dynamaxing.
Shell Smash to set up Atk, SpA, and Speed (doesn't need the Atk)
Blizzard is a 110 BP Ice-type attack that can KO Eternamax, not miss under hail which is set after dynamax, and is able to hit Pokemon of all types. Kyurem-White is one of the main dynamaxers of the metagame anyway but Clanging Scales is just in case you may want to hold back on it.
Clanging Scales doesn't need to rely on dynamax to hit at full accuracy but is blocked by Fairy-types. Same power as Blizzard.
Earth Power to deal with Pokemon resisting Ice and Dragon (Steel-types especially)
Indeedee (M) @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 30 HP / 0 Atk
- Spore
- Shell Smash
- Stored Power
- Moonblast
Male Indeedee has better offense stats and speed to sweep.
Modest to boost damage output, can outspeed most of the opposition after setting up anyway, all of them after x3 in most cases.
Spore to inflict Pokemon to sleep so it can set up (there's a pattern)
Shell Smash to boost its stats...
You're gonna want to use Shell Smash twice to make this work, otherwise it's not able to OHKO Eternamax. Afterwards Stored Power ensures a KO.
Moonblast is for the Dark-types who are immune to Stored Power. I prefer it over Secret Sword atm just because it's stronger and the only real thing I've noticed Secret Sword being used over Moonblast so far is its possibility of dealing with Bisharp easier. Bisharp hasn't been seen in the metagame yet.
Here's a bonus Neutralizing Gas offense set. It'll be freed from the hide tag:
Eternatus-Eternamax @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 30 HP
- Fissure
- Recover
- Horn Drill
- U-turn
I've found this set to be particularly scary if your opponent doesn't have Substitute because it can freely launch OHKO moves without getting harshly punished for missing them. It can take lots of damage, recover, and spout OHKO moves. It has a total of 16, with 2 OHKO moves having 30% accuracy. Using all of them it's likely to hit at least 5. It has Safety Goggles to not get put to sleep.
Fissure is a Ground-type OHKO move, helps against those who don't run Flying-type Pokemon
Horn Drill is a Normal-type OHKO move, helps against those who don't run Ghost-type Pokemon
Froslass is still not great in this meta. It's not strong offensively or defensively and is weak to the best utility damage moves of this entire metagame.
Sheer Cold now mostly requires a second OHKO move or a coverage attack since Ice-types are significantly more common in the form of Delibird, Darmanitan-Galar-Zen, and Kyurem formes.
Last but not least U-Turn is there for it to escape safely without the threat of facing a Taunt trapper.
Now speaking of this set I'll like to put in some details about OHKO moves.
This gen No Guard has mostly lost its filler move for a second OHKO or coverage move, since at this point Ice-types are significantly more common than in previous gens and are used to wall out Sheer Cold. All 3 OHKO moves have a group of Pokemon able to block them.
No Guard is still a large threat, and Wonder Guard is still by far the best option to fight off against these. Neutralizing Gas is NOT an effective way to check No Guard + OHKO moves. They reduce the accuracy of these moves to 30% but your Pokemon can still get hit. If that Pokemon gets hit, your chances of losing the dame drastically increase since you just lost a vital Pokemon. Neutralizing Gas spam may work against OHKO moves since in the end each of the Pokemon have a 30% chance of getting hit, but if you're running 1-2 Neutralizing Gas Pokemon and no Wonder Guards, you have no switchins and once one of the Neutralizing Gas Pokemon gets hit you lose the game almost automatically, so still be really cautious when considering checks for these types of Pokemon.
Next I'll like to bring up other important moves. These are what I think are the most important moves in the metagame, in no particular order. Spore - The only high accuracy sleep move in the entire metagame. The majority of sweepers will be running this for the best chance of setting up. Knock Off - A large portion of Pokemon will be carry Safety Goggles, Shed Shell, or Heavy-Duty Boots. This move knocks this and any other item out of the opposing Pokemon's hands to benefit your chances of inflicting status or hazard damage as well as being able to trap. It's also super effective against Indeedee. Gastro Acid* - If you're running an offense Pokemon that's not Neutralizing Gas, this move is arguably mandatory. Gastro Acid removes any and all abilities to help your Pokemon gain a lead. This move is absolutely necessary when faced off against Neutralizing Gas, as Pokemon with -ate abilities, Huge Power/Pure Power, Wonder Guard (Even that's put into offense use this gen), No Guard, or any other ability used for offense purposes are rendered entirely useless otherwise. Keep this in mind especially when posting -ate sets on the thread. -ate is likely not good this gen. Entrainment is in the same boat as Gastro Acid, just for Pokemon who'd like giving their own ability to the opponent, like Dragapult with Normalize. Spectral Thief - Good chances are your opponent is going to be setting up, a lot. Use this move to steal their stats while pulling off extra damage. Stealth Rock - This is a great hazard move that allows you to chip the opposing team more. In particular this helps for sweeping against sash users and Eternamax in many cases.
There are other important moves in the metagame but these should always be considered or thought about when teambuilding.
On back to Eternamax.
Eternamax... Well, I'm gonna have to be honest... this thing is... is... uh...
Actually from how it looks Eternamax seems to be the personification and spiritual successor of past gen Wonder Guard. Let me explain. Right now Eternamax is in a position where
It's one of the only if not the only thing preventing the metagame from becoming a complete HO-Fest (By restricting Neutralizing Gas offense)
Is the one of the most centralizing things in the entire metagame.
Its centralization is healthy for the metagame (Less random offensive Neutralizing Gas Pokemon setting up everywhere)
Tends to run lots of bulky utility support and cleric sets (Much less often runs moves in an attempt to sweep by itself)
Its optimal number is 2 (Less than two and you aren't easily able to provide enough support for your team. More than two and your team lacks offensive power and pressure)
Is quite lackluster offensivelyin most cases (115 Atk and 125 SpA isn't strong enough for the metagame. It gets walled by opposing Eternamax and has a difficult time setting up without getting its stats stolen or cleared)
All of these traits perfectly describe Wonder Guard previous generations.
Wonder Guard blocks No Guard, which otherwise turned the metagame into a complete HO-Fest
Wonder Guard is one of the the most centralizing things in previous gen metagames
Its centralization is healthy for the metagame as it stops Huge Power/Pure Power + No Guard from becoming more destructive
Wonder Guard tends to run lots of bulky utility support and cleric sets over moves to sweep by itself
Its optimal number is 2, for the same reason as Eternamax
Wonder Guard Pokemon are quite lackluster offensively in most cases
Realizing this left me being quite stunned. Eternamax, while being the most centralizing Pokemon, if anything, is actually helping the metagame!
Anyway while I'm currently seeing it as a spiritual successor of Wonder Guard, don't take this the wrong way. There is still a major difference it has from it.
Eternamax cannot block Sheer Cold and Fissure due to its typing.
This alone means Eternamax makes for an awful Wonder Guard user the combination of this and its bulk makes Wonder Guard is entirely pointless on it. Don't use Wonder Guard Eternamax. Instead, treat it as a Wonder Guard for Neutralizing Gas offense :). Disclaimer: Under Dynamax Kyurem-White and Darmanitan-Galar can OHKO after they set up once, but when they're through with Dynamax Eternamax can still take one of their attacks especially depending on nature and the amount of HP Eternamax had beforehand. Other Pokemon should be used to take on their Dynamaxed formes. For example, Zamazenta is one of the greatest checks for Darmanitan-Galar-Zen, whereas Primarina can suffice against Kyurem-White.
Imposter:
Imposter Eternamax is still good, although difficult enough to use to the point where Transform may even be better. This move can even also be used on Imposter sets for when Imposter fails against Neutralizing Gas.
Transform takes up a moveslot but bypasses through the Neutralizing Gas ability, whereas Imposter does nothing if it's sent out in front of Neutralizing Gas. This is one of the abilities that require a Gastro Acid user somewhere but on a different Pokemon rather than the Imposter. Make sure you Imposterproof, especially your Wonder Guards since they'll likely have Gastro Acid to defend themselves.
Here is a replay to me choking against Funbot's Imposter as I'm seeing it successfully used for the first time: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1044589877. Thanks Funbot28
I've also seen Transform used successfully but I don't have a replay for that this time.
Imposter and Transform should be primarily used to scout the opponent's set or fish for a chance to counteract a potential sweep from Pokemon having to rely on Gastro Acid.
Last but not least I want to get to important items. These are some of the most important items you'll see in the meta: Safety Goggles - Because Spore is the only high accuracy sleep move in the metagame and it's a powder move, a large majority of the metagame's offensive and defensive Pokemon are going to be running this item. Blocking sleep status is a key to ensuring each Pokemon play their roles successfully. Shed Shell - Trapping abilities may still be present and trapping moves are more common than in previous generations thanks to Octolock. This item will likely be used on Pokemon carrying four attacks that do little to no direct damage without room for a pivoting move. Heavy-Duty Boots - Avoids webs, avoids rocks, avoids spikes. This item is helpful particularly on used Pokemon like Delibird and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen with a x4 weakness to rock, Pokemon who don't want to get slowed down by webs, and against teams carrying hefty amounts of hazards. Choice Scarf - Used to outspeed much of the opposition, resist webs, and is able to be tricked onto the opponent restricting their Pokemon to one attack. Rusted Sword - Despite Zacian-Crowned still being restricted to its native ability and the Rusted Sword item, it can still do wonders in the metagame by utilizing its crazy base attack and speed combo as well as its dual Fairy/Steel typing. It can set up and bypass Wonder Guard with Sunsteel Strike and/or try flinchspamming with Double Iron Bash. Expert Belt - Allows Kyurem-White and Darmanitan-Galar-Zen to KO Eternatus-Eternamax after setting up once Stealth Rocks are up.
Alright I'm done with posting more of my thoughts for now. I decided just to blow through and try simplifying this post since as I was thinking about it I knew it was going to be large. If anyone has any questions or you disagree with something you can ask here or in a dm with me on discord, smogon, or ps.
Why not use Boomburst on Indeedee? Is Moonblast for Wonder Guard Dark-types, like Sabeleye? The neutral damage off of STAB is more than UnSTABbed Moonblast 210 > 190.
Moonblast and Secret Sword hit Tyranitar and Bisharp, though Boomburst IS stronger overall. However after 1 or 2 smashes it doesn't particularly matter as your ko'ing anyway.
I feel if you replace Spore with Clanging Scales, you could easily use Throat Spray over Safety Goggles for the KO (rather than the Expert Belt or Plate or Life Orb Tmi489 suggested).
The problem is that Throat Spray activates after you use Clanging Scales, meaning you need a free turn to use Clanging Scales (rather than just getting a KO from D-Max). Throat Spray definitely is interesting though since they can't stop you once you actually use it, and you can Clang on a weakened Eternamax (like after a super fang)
EDIT: +3 252+ SpA Kyurem-White Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 474-560 (66.3 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
not enough to ko
Lastly, I would suggest Assault Vest on Primarina if you need an Imposterproof for Throat Spray Kyurem-W, as the Assault Vest will basically negate the Throat Spray boost.
You can't heal if you use AV therefore you can be worn down and aren't a good check as a result
And if you have a +2 boost, throat spray would get you to +3 (2.5*) which 2.5/1.5 = 1.66 < 2* from smash and no vest
Moonblast and Secret Sword hit Tyranitar and Bisharp, though Boomburst IS stronger overall. However after 1 or 2 smashes it doesn't particularly matter as your ko'ing anyway.
ngas stops impostor
The problem is that Throat Spray activates after you use Clanging Scales, meaning you need a free turn to use Clanging Scales (rather than just getting a KO from D-Max). Throat Spray definitely is interesting though since they can't stop you once you actually use it, and you can Clang on a weakened Eternamax (like after a super fang)
EDIT: +3 252+ SpA Kyurem-White Clanging Scales vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 474-560 (66.3 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
not enough to ko
You can't heal if you use AV therefore you can be worn down and aren't a good check as a result
And if you have a +2 boost, throat spray would get you to +3 (2.5*) which 2.5/1.5 = 1.66 < 2* from smash and no vest
Natural Gas stops Imposter from triggering, but in his post he also mentioned Transform. I guess I could have used Transform the move, but I just lumped them together since he put them both in the same section, otherwise: I agree, point taken.
For Throat Spray: If you don’t have the time to Shell Smash (such as when you know a foe will KO you if you Shell Smash first due to the - Def & - SpD, but you can KO them if you Attack them), then Clanging Scales with Throat Spray makes sense since he suggested that move anyways. If he has listed Dynamax Cannon and then I suggested Clanging Scales that would be a switch, but I am only thinking of Throat Spray because there is less reason not to run it if he considers not using Spore + Safety Goggles.
TLDR- Throat Spray doesn’t require a free turn bc you would have ended up Attacking that turn anyways. Also, if you have already used Dynamax in the match earlier on another Pokemon, Clanging Scales is the better Attack off of STAB so you don’t risk 70% Accurate Blizzard missing.
Clanging Scales triggers a reward for use, and that makes it worth using before you Dynamax so you can then get the more powerful moves with the item boost.
Plate, Belt, and Life Orb can also be Trick/Knocked Off, while Throat Spray cannot be removed once it activates.
For Primarina:
Your calculations prove my point, adding 50% from the original 100% is 150%, which means your 50% boost is 33% of the current 150%. Same goes for SpD. 1.5 / 1 = 1.33%
A Pokemon that survives a neutral hit off a 2.5x SpA is rare, so it would need Assault Vest.
+3 252+ SpA Kyurem-White Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Primarina: 142-168 (39 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
As it survives the first hit, it would Spectral Thief, forcing out Kyurem-White with Neutralizing Gas, this means that that unless the very next Pokemon they send in is also Neutralizing Gas, then it would still heal when it decides to switch out.
“Secret Sword being used over Moonblast so far is its possibility of dealing with Bisharp easier. Bisharp hasn't been seen in the metagame yet.” - Ransei
I asked after reading that because it was clear that Bisharp is a non-factor at this point. So if your only points are Tyranitar and Bisharp, then it’s basically just Tyranitar...
Ransei made a point about needing 2 Smashes for it to be effective:
“You're gonna want to use Shell Smash twice to make this work, otherwise it's not able to OHKO Eternamax. Afterwards Stored Power ensures a KO.”
So you Spore, Shell Smash on their switch, which would be to a Psychic resist like Darmanitan-Zen Mode, and now your Moonblast or Secret Sword are resisted as well. Whereas a Boomburst would put up a fight:
+2 252+ SpA Indeedee Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Darmanitan-Zen: 301-355 (72.7 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Indeedee Stored Power (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Darmanitan-Zen: 150-177 (36.2 - 42.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Due to this, I figured that Boomburst, after a single Smash is = to Stored Power’s stat buffs.
210 each after STAB.
Ultimately, my thought was: If Bisharp is nowhere to be seen, and Tyranitar is the only option to stop it, then is it worth giving up an equally important STAB for just 1 Pokemon? Unless there were any other reason for it, like Sabeleye due to Dark/Ghost typing.
Also-
I don’t understand how you would get 2 Smashes up, as they would switch to a resist that can handle Spore (like Safety Goggles Darm-Z), and then with -Def and SpD, their Blue Flare can threaten you back:
252 SpA Darmanitan-Zen Blue Flare vs. -1 252 HP / 252 SpD Indeedee: 276-325 (85.1 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Other resists like Steel types would likely be Aegislash or Dusk-Mane, so Secret Sword wouldn’t be Super Effective, and Steel types naturally resist Fairy coverage Moves too. At least Boomburst has immediate power.
Are Indeedee users just to blindly assume they would get 2 free Smashes? As if the foe wouldn’t have Safety Goggles and that you would just Spore anything due to a lack of Sleep Clause?
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