Pokémon Primarina

[oversway]

Name: Primarina
#730
Type: Water / Fairy
80 HP / 74 Atk / 74 Def / 126 SpA / 116 SpD / 60 Spe

Abilities:
Torrent - When HP is below 1/3rd its maximum, power of Water-type moves is increased by 50%.
Hidden Ability:
Liquid Voice - All sound-based moves become Water-type moves.

Moves:

Level up

Lv4 - Growl
Lv9 - Disarming Voice
Lv11 - Baby-Doll Eyes
Lv15 - Aqua Jet
Lv19 - Encore
Lv24 - Bubble Beam
Lv28 - Sing
Lv33 - Double Slap
Lv38 - Hyper Voice
Lv44 - Moonblast
Lv49 - Captivate
Lv55 - Hydro Pump
Lv60 - Misty Terrain

TMs & HMs

TM01 - Work Up
TM06 - Toxic
TM07 - Hail
TM10 - Hidden Power
TM13 - Ice Beam
TM14 - Blizzard
TM16 - Light Screen
TM17 - Protect
TM18 - Rain Dance
TM21 - Frustration
TM27 - Return
TM29 - Psychic
TM30 - Shadow Ball
TM32 - Double Team
TM33 - Reflect
TM42 - Facade
TM44 - Rest
TM45 - Attract
TM48 - Round
TM49 - Echoed Voice
TM53 - Energy Ball
TM55 - Scald
TM62 - Acrobatics
TM68 - Giga Impact
TM77 - Psych Up
TM87 - Swagger
TM88 - Sleep Talk
TM90 - Substitute
TM94 - Surf
TM98 - Waterfall
TM99 - Dazzling Gleam
TM100 - Confide

Eggs

Charm
Amnesia
Aqua Ring
Aromatic Mist
Perish Song
Wonder Room

New

Sparkling Aria
Aromatic Mist

At first glance, this seems like the special counterpart to Azumarill—a dual Water / Fairy typing granting it many resistances and the ability to check many of the Ultra Beasts, including Nihilego, Buzzwole, Pheromosa, and Guzzlord. However, its mediocre Defense, poor Speed and lack of recovery means it won't see use as a sweeper or wall. However, an above average Special Attack and Special Defense combined with decent coverage makes offensive tank sets viable.

Primarina @ Assault Vest / Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 136 HP / 252 SpA / 120 Spe OR 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump / Scald
- Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Moonblast

This set capitalizes on Primarina's high SpD to turn it into a strong special tank. EVs maximize SpA while allowing it to outspeed most walls and slower attackers, and rest is placed in HP to boost its bulk. Hydro Pump and Scald can both be used as the primary STABs, the former having more power and the latter coming with a 30% burn chance. Moonblast is the secondary STAB, attaining excellent coverage with Moonblast and hitting Dragon, Fighting, Dark, and other bulky Water types. Psychic hits bulky Poison-types, notably Venusaur and Toxapex, both of which take its other attacks with ease. Ice Beam rounds out the set, hitting Grass-types, notably OHKOing Kartana on the switchin. Choice Specs is an alternate item option to provide more immediate power at the cost of some bulk.


Conclusion:

Overall a decent special tank, access to reliable recovery moves would've made it much better though. Could definitely see it remaining in OU, or UU at the least, although Azumarill could give it slight competition in OU; Primarina's higher base SpD being balanced by Azumarill's access to priority and ability to break through special walls.

 

[Hiddenfreezer]

That high special attack begs for a Specs Set throwing out massive powerful Hydro Pumps!

(Also Water/Fairy is always a good typing, so this thing will never be super low tier)

 

[Kejmur]

That high special attack begs for a Specs Set throwing out massive powerful Hydro Pumps!

(Also Water/Fairy is always a good typing, so this thing will never be super low tier)

Plus 80 / 116 SpD with this typing (which provides great resistances in overall) should be enough for around UU tier in my opinion and it may also run possible RestTalk Specially Defensive set for recovery. Or Max SpA / Max HP with Scald and Perish Song as two additional moves for RestTalk so something can't set-up in your face as it may risk burn or Perish Song death.

Plus I think I would also slash Hyper Voice as an option for attacking move if you want something with a bit more power then Scald and don't risk accuracy of Hydro Pump.

 

[Tory]

That high special attack begs for a Specs Set throwing out massive powerful Hydro Pumps!

(Also Water/Fairy is always a good typing, so this thing will never be super low tier)

Yeah, when I will play ubers, I will use a Choice Specs moveset for powerful Hydro Pumps as well. As you can see, it has the special defense to take the hits. Scald got nerf'd (1/16 burn damage now), I will be using it less.

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 SpD
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Blizzard
- Energy Ball / Shadow Ball

What set is the best for a Choice Specs Primarina Hiddenfreezer? I will be using this one in Ubers.

 

[shiloh]

ok av is just flat out bad. it doesnt hit hard enough, worn down by all forms of hazards, easily crippled by status and has no overall redeemable qualities that would really make you wanna use it like priority or anything like that.

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Moonblast
- Psychic
- Hidden Power [Fire] / Scald

specs should really be the only primarina set used since i boosts its power, and relies on its natural bulk which is fine as is. ive been using it on a few teams and its been working out well since you are able to check shit like kingdra / phero / zard and other huge offensive threats in the meta atm while firing off strong attacks. 88 evs are used for 0 speed skarm which i think is the highest benchmark you should want to hit, anything more feels a bit excessive to me since you still want some bulk to eat attacks from shit like aegi.

i think post this beta stage primarina will struggle to remain ou, though it is still a great check to stuff like zard-x, weavile, and latis so it will have a niche in ou if people still want to use it. overall one of my fav new mons from this gen and happy they gave use another useable starter.

 

[oversway]

glad to know you've spent the last 24 hours using av enough to call it 'flat out bad.' it's susceptibility to hazards and status is augmented by its poor speed and lack of reliable recovery, both of which plague a specs variant just as much. it's hardly a plus to say specs checks kingdra and phero too because that's true for p much any mon that resists both their stabs. specs primarina doesn't actually check manaphy since +3 energy ball ohkos, while av is guaranteed to live after sr.
though the meta hasn't been released for long enough to truly determine if specs or av is more effective in the long run.

 

[MelloMaster]

I'm gonna post PkmnTrainerSteve's video that had some interesting ideas. He goes pretty indepth with some damage clacs and speed ties. Here is the set:

Primarina @ Salac Berry
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 44 HP / 252 SpA / 212 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Energy Ball
- Hyper Voice
- Ice Beam
- Moonblast

 

[celes]

glad to know you've spent the last 24 hours using av enough to call it 'flat out bad.' it's susceptibility to hazards and status is augmented by its poor speed and lack of reliable recovery, both of which plague a specs variant just as much. it's hardly a plus to say specs checks kingdra and phero too because that's true for p much any mon that resists both their stabs. specs primarina doesn't actually check manaphy since +3 energy ball ohkos, while av is guaranteed to live after sr.
though the meta hasn't been released for long enough to truly determine if specs or av is more effective in the long run.

The difference between how no recovery and being susceptible to hazards + status affects Choice Specs Primarina vs Assault Vest Primarina is that one focuses on longevity / being a "tank" while the other focuses on wallbreaking. Assault Vest Primarina seems to have no niche, and it frankly doesn't seem to actually check anything that a regular Primarina or Tapu Fini can't already. The main reason Assault Vest Azumarill was even a thing was so offense could have a check to Greninja, but that set died once Greninja learned Gunk Shot and even after it was removed from the tier. I'm not seeing how Primarina will fare any differently.

Anyway, I agree that Choice Specs will probably be Primarina's best set but I think Psychic might be better than Scald on it since it gives Primarina a niche over Tapu Fini by allowing it to break Toxapex and M-Venusaur, both of which are pretty prominent. Losing out on an accurate Water STAB option sucks but there isn't really any Steel type outside of Ferrothorn and maybe SpDef Jirachi that you would really want Scald for since all the other ones can't switch into Hydro Pump, and all the Poison types that you'd want to whittle with a Scald burn (only 6% damage from burn now though) lose to Psychic.

 

[ehT]

I was really excited to use this thing after seeing its design and stats. The first SuMo team I built used Specs Primarina, with a simple set of Hydro / Moonblast / Psychic / Filler (Scald, Ice Beam, HP Fire, and Energy Ball all work), and it's an absolute beast. It needs to go offensive to have an edge over Tapu Fini, whose stats and movepool better suit it to a support role than the J-pop seal. It also needs to run max Speed to get the jump on things like Jolly Azu, IMO. Thanks to its bulk and typing, with or without investment, you can easily bring it in in something like Keldeo (or Hydreigon in UU, where I predict it will be) and fire off a crazy powerful Hydro, Moonblast, or the occasional Psychic, if there's a Poison type waiting in the wings.

I disagree with AV Primarina, personally, since (a) it's bulky enough to take the hits it needs to, and (b) without recovery, Speed, or utility, it needs to dedicate all of its focus to wallbreaking to stand out. AV has switch ins, while Specs doesn't.

 

[Kejmur]

Here is an idea for Primarina lure set. Main role for this is to lure in Mega-Venusaur and Toxipex and nuke them with +1 Work Up Life Orb Psychic. In case my calculations are off, please just state it.

Primarina @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
Nature: Modest
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
~ Work Up
~ Hydro Pump
~ Ice Beam / HP Fire / HP Electric
~ Psychic

If you think Specs hurts, this one nukes. With incredible Water / Fairy typing finding switch-in opportunity and finding free turn for Work Up isn't exactly hard. I just shamelessly copies EVs from Specs set as they work perfectly fine here as well. Some calcs:

Mega Venusaur 248 HP / 144 SpD Neutral Nature vs +1 Life Orb Psychic

85.95% -> 101.38% which means Ko with Stealth Rocks up.

Max HP Neutral Toxapex vs +1 Life Orb Psychic

100.00%->117.76%

Hidden Power Fire is perfectly fine alternative as well if you want to lure in Ferrothorn. Or HP Electric for Mantine. But I think Hydro Pump / Ice Beam / Psychic works the best here in combination. And this hits hard anyway and you may switch moves between unlike in Specs set. I hope someone will enjoy this idea. Even if there is no lure to nuke, this thing still hits damn hard. Or you may as well just Life Orb everything and make it work as bulky cleaner.

 

[oversway]

av allows you to switch in easier against stuff like keldeo and pheromosa. idk bout you but personally I've found the extra bulk much more helpful in turning 2HKOs into 3HKOs. I agree with the change to Psychic, hitting bulky poisons is more important than Scald's accuracy. it's false to say av has switchins while scald doesn't, if anything I'd say it's easier to switch into specs since you don't have to play mind games with aegi as much (which is bound to be big if it doesn't get banned) and spdef ferro still avoids the 2hko from specs Ice Beam. Water and Fairy also isn't the best offensive typing in the tier due to the prominence of bulky waters/steels/grass-types, in which case I'd prefer to be able to switch between attacks. as of now I've slashed av with specs, I still think both could find use.

 

[DaKakz]

Doesn't Nature's Madness + Taunt Tapu Fini outclass this at breaking walls? It's even faster than it.

 

[Dakress]

Doesn't Nature's Madness + Taunt Tapu Fini outclass this at breaking walls? It's even faster than it.

Kinda. Prima breaks them through sheer power, Fini does it with an hyper fang clone and Taunt. And while Fini has better bulk, it lacks the offensive presence Primarina has (the former also can't burn stuff with scald due to Misty Terrain).

 

[Of Moose & Men]

glad to know you've spent the last 24 hours using av enough to call it 'flat out bad.' it's susceptibility to hazards and status is augmented by its poor speed and lack of reliable recovery, both of which plague a specs variant just as much. it's hardly a plus to say specs checks kingdra and phero too because that's true for p much any mon that resists both their stabs. specs primarina doesn't actually check manaphy since +3 energy ball ohkos, while av is guaranteed to live after sr.
though the meta hasn't been released for long enough to truly determine if specs or av is more effective in the long run.

If you're going to make analysis threads, you should probably not take posts like those to heart. I can't help but feel as though you felt insulted for whatever reason.

 

[ehT]

Doesn't Nature's Madness + Taunt Tapu Fini outclass this at breaking walls? It's even faster than it.

No. What you described is stallbreaking, which is different from wallbreaking. The former involves shutting down status moves some combination of Taunt, status, and a boosting move. I personally don't even think Fini should do that; I think its best set is Scald / Taunt / Moonblast / Defog, which allows you to take the most advantage of your bulk and typing to Defog on a huge amount of threats, most notably Keldeo, while Taunt prevents it from being hazard fodder for stuff like Ferro and Toxapex. Prima can do none of those things, with Heal Bell and Encore being the extent of its utility movepool, and only the former of which it can use semi-reliably.

 

[oversway]

If you're going to make analysis threads, you should probably not take posts like those to heart. I can't help but feel as though you felt insulted for whatever reason.

why would i be insulted?
i'm just doubtful that specs is always better than av since that's not what i've discovered when playing
maybe you should stop trying to draw imaginary conclusions

 

[ehT]

av allows you to switch in easier against stuff like keldeo and pheromosa. idk bout you but personally I've found the extra bulk much more helpful in turning 2HKOs into 3HKOs. I agree with the change to Psychic, hitting bulky poisons is more important than Scald's accuracy. it's false to say av has switchins while scald doesn't, if anything I'd say it's easier to switch into specs since you don't have to play mind games with aegi as much (which is bound to be big if it doesn't get banned) and spdef ferro still avoids the 2hko from specs Ice Beam. Water and Fairy also isn't the best offensive typing in the tier due to the prominence of bulky waters/steels/grass-types, in which case I'd prefer to be able to switch between attacks. as of now I've slashed av with specs, I still think both could find use.

Sorry for the double post. I can see your reasoning here, mainly because Prima is unique in that it's an offensive Water + Fighting resist that doesn't lose to burn (Azu) or Pursuit (Lati@s). Being able to switch up moves is a great upside, because you aren't immediately punished for predicting incorrectly, which is the biggest drawback of Choice items, but I'm not entirely sure about the tradeoff in damage, unless you're running both HP Fire and Psychic to smack all of Moonguss, Ferro, and Toxapex. I didn't mean to shut down the entirely, I was just skeptical. I'll definitely give it a shot.

 

[oversway]

imo hp fire is interchangeable with ice beam since they both are for hitting grass-types, ice beam does more in general but hp fire is able to 2hko ferro. it might even be better to run hp fire in some cases because moonblast does enough to grass-types anyway most of the time and burn damage can no longer be relied on to whittle down ferro.

 

[Bombkirby]

I feel like stink will do this thing 's job in OU while Prima performs in UU. The type combo alone has proven to be immensely good thanks to Azumarill who went from a mediocre to top tier.

If you're going to make analysis threads, you should probably not take posts like those to heart. I can't help but feel as though you felt insulted for whatever reason.

Spreading bad information with a sample size of 3 matches is not something that we should support.

 

[Ultimasamune]

I'm really irked by how useless Liquid Voice and Sparkling Aria are. LV literally just gives you a Surf that bypasses subs (not worth sacrificing Torrent for this, imo), and SA is a sub-bypassing Surf that cures your enemy's burns (no use except against a Flame Orb Guts user, I guess? Which in any case is probably fighting type and would be better dealt with by an SE Fairy attack). I think this may be one of the worst Hidden Abilities of any Pokemon ever, come to think of it. Am I missing something? I suppose Perish Song in doubles with a water-resistant ally would be another use case. In any case, Torrent, despite how mediocre it is, clearly seems to be the better ability.

 

[Heroes and Cons]

I'm gonna post PkmnTrainerSteve's video that had some interesting ideas. He goes pretty indepth with some damage clacs and speed ties. Here is the set:

Primarina @ Salac Berry
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 44 HP / 252 SpA / 212 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Energy Ball
- Hyper Voice
- Ice Beam
- Moonblast

What does this set do that Surf (or Hydro) + Torrent (instead of Liquid Voice + Hyper Voice) doesn't do better? Surf is just as strong as Hyper Voice, Liquid Voice does not boost attack BP, and Torrent will boost Surf / Hydro to huge power levels at low HP for wallbreaking power. Also, Soundproof mons are immune to LV Hyper Voice, but not Surf / Hydro. LV Hyper Voice might bypass subs, but unless Primarina has been Toxic'd that really doesn't matter as it has the power to break any mon's sub in one hit anyway. Until Primarina learns Boomburst (one can hope...), there's zero reason to run Liquid Voice honestly.

This highlights one of the two biggest issues with Primarina (the other is no reliable recovery) - no particularly useful abilities. A lot of big OU mons in the past had at least one ability that helped it carve a niche in the tier, such as Tyranitar, Dragonite, Garchomp, Azumarill and Landorus-T, and a lot of the news mons (particularly the Tapus) are doing the same. Additionally, Primarina has a nice offensive movepool and great Special Attack stat, but Tapu Fini still outclasses this mon due to its Misty Terrain, superior mixed bulk, and access to Defog and other support moves.

Primarina could be a really nice UU mon though, and I doubt it would drop below UU this gen thanks to its amazing typing and offensive power, but it's almost certainly not gonna be an OU staple.

 

[KronusX7]

Don't see why I would ever not use Specs for her. It seems like she was pretty much made for Specs

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

What does this set do that Surf (or Hydro) + Torrent (instead of Liquid Voice + Hyper Voice) doesn't do better? Surf is just as strong as Hyper Voice, Liquid Voice does not boost attack BP, and Torrent will boost Surf / Hydro to huge power levels at low HP for wallbreaking power. Also, Soundproof mons are immune to LV Hyper Voice, but not Surf / Hydro. LV Hyper Voice might bypass subs, but unless Primarina has been Toxic'd that really doesn't matter as it has the power to break any mon's sub in one hit anyway. Until Primarina learns Boomburst (one can hope...), there's zero reason to run Liquid Voice honestly.

This highlights one of the two biggest issues with Primarina (the other is no reliable recovery) - no particularly useful abilities. A lot of big OU mons in the past had at least one ability that helped it carve a niche in the tier, such as Tyranitar, Dragonite, Garchomp, Azumarill and Landorus-T, and a lot of the news mons (particularly the Tapus) are doing the same. Additionally, Primarina has a nice offensive movepool and great Special Attack stat, but Tapu Fini still outclasses this mon due to its Misty Terrain, superior mixed bulk, and access to Defog and other support moves.

Primarina could be a really nice UU mon though, and I doubt it would drop below UU this gen thanks to its amazing typing and offensive power, but it's almost certainly not gonna be an OU staple.

You don't give Substitute bypassing enough credit, honestly. Primarina might be coming in on something that already has a Substitute up, in which case LV Hyper Voice would really come in handy. You also really overrate Torrent; this thing is incredibly slow, so once it's down to 1/3, it's dead anyway (as in, you'll get one Torrent hit off if you're lucky). Neither ability is particularly good, but you're seriously underrating the applications of LV Hyper Voice and overrating the applications of Torrent. Personally, once Liquid Voice is released, I could see the Specs slashes looking like this:

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent / Liquid Voice
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Hydro Pump / Hyper Voice
- Moonblast
- Ice Beam

Definitely not an OU staple, though; it doesn't appear to be unviable, but I'd only use this over Tapu Fini for an offensive set.

Edit: Also, Kommo-o is probably the only Pokemon viable in OU that gets Soundproof, and it doesn't want to switch into Primarina regardless.

 

[Ultimasamune]

You don't give Substitute bypassing enough credit, honestly. Primarina might be coming in on something that already has a Substitute up, in which case LV Hyper Voice would really come in handy. You also really overrate Torrent; this thing is incredibly slow, so once it's down to 1/3, it's dead anyway (as in, you'll get one Torrent hit off if you're lucky). Neither ability is particularly good, but you're seriously underrating the applications of LV Hyper Voice and overrating the applications of Torrent. Personally, once Liquid Voice is released, I could see the Specs slashes looking like this:

Primarina @ Choice Specs
Ability: Torrent / Liquid Voice
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpA / 88 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Hydro Pump / Hyper Voice
- Moonblast
- Ice Beam

Definitely not an OU staple, though; it doesn't appear to be unviable, but I'd only use this over Tapu Fini for an offensive set.

Edit: Also, Kommo-o is probably the only Pokemon viable in OU that gets Soundproof, and it doesn't want to switch into Primarina regardless.

Torrent is situational, for sure, and with a Pokemon this slow you can't plan much with it. But, as you said, if you're already queued up with a Water move and get knocked below 1/3 before it launches, there's no doubt it's going to make a big difference. It seems to me that this will be far more common a situation that wanting to bypass a sub AND not heal the burn (i.e., use LV and Hyper Voice instead of Sparkling Aria). If you're not running Scald then this becomes even less of an issue, as you only have to worry about switching in on burnt Pokemon. I just don't see Liquid Voice ever being more useful than Torrent unless you want to have an ally resist Perish Song.

 

[Maui]

Primarina seems like its an incredible special attacker. Hydro Pump is perfect on this Pokémon, and even Sparkling Aria seems like a decent move, especially for a Pokémon trying to use Façade if burned