Potential Jirachi Suspect & Sequential Bans

[DeepBlueC]

#MakeDPPGreatAgain

In recently conducted survey of selected members of the DPP community (official thread is here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-ou-post-spl-xv-survey-results-and-discussion.3746024), over 50% of those surveyed expressed the feeling that Jirachi is problematic. A portion of them felt that despite Jirachi being problematic, no tiering action should be taken.

Some of us council members believe that one reason for these players’ decision of learning towards “no tiering action” stems from the belief that Jirachi is a necessary evil and that the metagame would be worse without it. For example, they may believe that in a Jirachi-less metagame, certain Pokemon—like Specs Latias—would become much stronger and difficult to handle.

Therefore, in such situations, these players would be willing to settle to keep Jirachi because it at least keeps other threats in check.

To address these concerns, a few of us DPP council members (myself, BIHI, and Student of Sinnoh) would like to get the community’s thoughts on a sequence of potential bans if Jirachi were removed from DPP OU. These bans wouldn’t take place immediately after Jirachi’s absence from DPP OU. But rather, if the DPP OU metagame proves to be worse in Jirachi’s absence, because of certain offenders, then these offenders could be on the chopping block (e.g., via a suspect test). Other bans that we are proposing would be those that share the same criteria for being banworthy as Jirachi. Therefore, by at least being cognizant of these offenders, we can take actions to mitigate any damage that would follow from Jirachi’s ban. Another alternative scenario is that if the DPP OU metagame is better with Jirachi and co., then we can reverse any bans that have taken place.


Therefore, nothing is set in stone right now, but we wish to get at least some sort of input from the community about what can be done with DPP, if any, so that we have sufficient time to take the necessary action before the start of SPL.


Before we move onto the potential bans, we thought it would be best to reiterate why we feel Jirachi deserves to be banned.


1. Why Jirachi should be banned

Jirachi is one of the most common Pokemon in DPP OU, and for good reasons. It has a decent spread of attacking moves, and is considered by many as a crucial “glue” that holds a team together. Its access to support moves like Wish and overall bulk enable it to be a key defensive member of a stall team. At the same time, Jirachi’s decent speed allows it to fit on offensive teams and serve as a revenge killer for threatening pokemon like SD Lucario. Further, its steel typing combined with its base HP and SpDef stats allow it to tank a Latias’ Draco Meteor.


For at least these reasons, Jirachi is a Pokemon that some players are not willing to let go of because of the multiple hats it can wear.


Despite this, we feel that Jirachi’s negatives outweigh its positives, and a key contributor for that is its ability Serene Grace, which multiples 2x the secondary effect of a move.

I. How Jirachi abuses Serene Grace​

A. Iron Head - this is a move with a 30% flinching rate, but if the user has Serene Grace as the ability, then the flinching rate is boosted to 60% flinching rate. With Jirachi’s decent base speed, or support with the spread of paralysis, it allows Jirachi to muscle past threats that would otherwise be able to handle it. For example, although a Pokemon like Gliscor or Hippowdon might be able to 2HKO Jirachi with Earthquake, if Jirachi can land a series of consecutive flinches on these Pokemon, then Jirachi can prevail. As such, Iron Head usually takes away the opposing player’s autonomy and leaves it up to anybody’s guess as to who will prevail in this sort of encounter. It’s also important to note that due to Jirachi’s immunity to sand chip and the flinches it lands, allows Jirachi to gain free health via leftovers, thereby increasing its longevity. Since most non-boosted attacks are a 2hko on Jirachi, it also adds pressure on a Pokemon to be able to land 2 hits within a specific number of turns. For instance, if turn 1 Jirachi uses Iron Head and then an opposing Gliscor uses Earthquake, wherein the Jirachi is now in a position to die to a second Earthquake, then the Gliscor user has to be able to land the second Earthquake within a specific number of turns thereafter, because otherwise the Jirachi would have gained enough health to then tank the second Earthquake.


B. Body Slam – this is a move with a 30% chance of inflicting paralysis, however, when used by Jirachi, there is now a 60% chance of inflicting paralysis. A Jirachi using Body Slam allows it to spread paralysis quite easily to other mons, while at the same time also inflicting damage on them. Additionally, Body Slam also allows Jirachi to paralyze ground types that would be immune to Jirachi’s other paralysis-inducing moves, such as Thunder Wave.


Iron Head + Paralysis Inducing Move is a combination that tends to be used quite often by Jirachi because it increases Jirachi’s odds of rendering the opposing Pokemon to remain immobile.


C. Fire Punch / Ice Punch – It’s a common strategy in Pokemon to switch to a Pokemon that would resist an attack that you predict from an opponent. For example, if you expect your opponent to use a Fire-type move, you would switch to a Water-type move. In the case of Jirachi, an opponent would be punished even after making the correct decision of switching to a resist. For example, a user may switch their Flygon or Swampert into an expected Fire Punch, only to then sustain the secondary effect of being burned because of the now 20% chance gifted to the Jirachi user via Serene Grace. So, not only does it become harder for the burnt Pokemon to beat Jirachi because of the lower Earthquake output, but also it becomes easier to flinch down to death (in the case of Swampert, i.e., a slower Pokemon). In some cases, Ice Punch can be used as "hail mary" move where Jirachi can land a game-winning freeze on a Pokemon, with its odds of doing so boosted due to Serene Grace. Therefore, in this instance also, Serene Grace is a big culprit as to why Jirachi does what it does.

There are several replays that showcase how these attributes of Jirachi have effectively turned the game around in its favour, and although we're not linking them right now, we hope that some of you at least feel that Jirachi is banworthy.



2. The sequential bans following Jirachi’s departure

It is to be noted that some of the below proposed bans may be independently banworthy, irrespective of Jirachi’s presence in the DPP OU metagame. And these bans need not occur in the order mentioned below.

I. Latias​

It goes without saying that Jirachi is a steel type that fits very easily on offensive teams that use it as a means to deal with Specs Latias. Some of us council members are aware that Jirachi isn’t necessary for dealing with Latias, and that DPP OU has sufficient tools for handling Latias, but it would be remiss of us to say that losing Jirachi will, in a way, make Latias stronger, and that if Latias does prove to be much stronger to handle, then it will be up for a quick ban or suspect.

II. Clefable​

Magic Guard is undeniably very good in DPP, as there is no Pokemon in the metagame that can repeatedly switch into multiple hazards and absorb status like paralysis, burn, or poison without any drawbacks.


As such, we also want to point out how good of a partner it is to Jirachi, which in a way also exacerbates the difficulty in dealing with Jirachi.

A. Sometimes dealing with Jirachi, requires having at least one Pokemon that can threaten Jirachi and Clefable simultaneously

Firstly, there are Pokemon that can deal with Jirachi individually, such as Thunder Wave Starmie, Will-O-Wisp Rotom, Bold Zapdos etc. However, when Jirachi is paired with Clefable, these answers to Jirachi become very shaky because Clefable can comfortably switch into these Pokemon. Further, Clefable’s access to Knock Off + Seismic Toss means that the opponent (especially if using an offensive team) cannot continuously let Clefable in.

Therefore, when dealing with Jirachi, it’s important to consider using a Pokemon that threatens the combination of Jirachi and Clefable. One example of this is Infernape, and it’s self-explanatory how Infernape is threatening to both of these mons. However, sometimes even having a Pokemon that can deal with Jirachi and Clefable, simultaneously, is insufficient. Let’s take the example of Lava Plume Heatran. Leftovers Lava Plume Heatran can safely switch into Jirachi’s attacks, but it’s not going to threaten Clefable unless it carries Taunt or Explosion. If Heatran is carrying Taunt, it’s not going to be able to threaten Clefable if it gets paralyzed upon switching into a paralysis move from Jirachi. The same example can be provided for other Pokemon, like a leftovers Metagross, where if it gets paralyzed by Jirachi, then it becomes all the more difficult for it to beat Clefable without exploding.

We understand that we cannot view a game of Pokemon in a vacuum and that we can’t map every single move or play beforehand, but this situation is all too common. And this brings us to our next point, which is that dealing with Jirachi requires sometimes having two answers to Jirachi.

As explained above, sometimes Pokemon like Heatran or Metagross need to explode versus Clefable in order to beat it, in which case you would then need to have another Pokemon to keep Jirachi in check. Meaning that dealing with a single Pokemon, like Jirachi, requires having two answers to it. This basically puts a strain on teambuilding where you’re supposed to satisfy both of the above criteria.

III. Machamp​

The combination of No Guard + Dynamic Punch, which allows Machamp to guaranteed land a confusion on a target, makes Machamp independently banworthy. In case Jirachi and Latias bans do go through, it is possible that Machamp becomes stronger. Although Machamp’s level of uncompetitiveness is not on par with Jirachi, both of these Pokemon rely on breaking past Pokemon because of their luck-inducing moves. Hence, for similar reasons as Jirachi, Machamp should be banned.

IV. Sleep​

In a tier without Jirachi and Latias, sleep would be difficult to handle. The tier has seen some usage of Rest-Talk Jirachi as a way to deal with Sleep. Latias also tends to be a Pokemon that is adept at handling Pokemon that use Sleep. Therefore, in the absence of these two, Sleep would be much more influential.

Some of us council members also feel that Sleep is independently banworthy because of how it can render an opposing Pokemon completely useless and the unpredictability with regards to how many turns a Pokemon can remain asleep, can be very costly. Moreover, the tier as is, lacks sufficient ways to deal with Sleep.


=================

TL DR - Jirachi is banworthy, and for those who are against banning Jirachi because its presence is necessary to keep other threats in check, we have proposed certain bans that can take place to mitigate the damage that could be caused in Jirachi's absence.

 

[Oatmon]

To play the devil’s advocate here: Jirachi is a Pokémon that really teaches new players the value of probability management. Once you get over the hurdle of learning it, it can be a valuable skill to have and offers a unique perspective on the game.

C. Fire Punch / Ice Punch – It’s a common strategy in Pokemon to switch to a Pokemon that would resist an attack that you predict from an opponent. For example, if you expect your opponent to use a Fire-type move, you would switch to a Water-type move. In the case of Jirachi, an opponent would be punished even after making the correct decision of switching to a resist. For example, a user may switch their Flygon or Swampert into an expected Fire Punch, only to then sustain the secondary effect of being burned because of the now 20% chance gifted to the Jirachi user via Serene Grace.

For instance, one could argue that your example of switching a Swampert into a Jirachi's fire punch being the 'correct' decision, could in fact be an incorrect one if the situation reduced your odds of winning by a substantial degree should you have gotten unlucky. It could also be the incorrect discussion if you were to get regular luck in your game but are planning to take other necessary risks later, and that extra 20% turn you are about to risk puts that plan in a state where it’s unlikely all of it will work given that you must do this as well.

---

For reasons like this, I'd argue that if Jirachi is to be banned, it should be for reasons of either being too hard, or requiring too much, or being too high variance to counter reliably, rather than simply being RNG dependant.

Following that line of reasoning, there are some choice calculations which really show the strengths of Jirachi.

For instance, this interaction, between a scarf Magneton and a scarf Jirachi, shows that despite Magneton being an x4 resist to Iron Head, it still has good odds to lose the interaction where Jirachi is trapped and locked into the move, and it loses the interaction if it is paralysed.

Show Magneton Percentages

If opponent is not paralyzed, then...
jir KOed opp 3680264 times, and opp KOed jir 6319736 times.
win rate by KO was 37 percent
Jirachi ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
Opponent ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
[Finished in 157.2s]

Note: If the opposing Magneton switches into Jirachi's Iron Head instead of starting at full, then the above is closer to 47 percent depending on the random damage Magneton takes on the switch in.

If opponent is paralyzed, then...
jir KOed opp 5940425 times, and opp KOed jir 4059575 times.
win rate by KO was 59 percent
Jirachi ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
Opponent ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
[Finished in 180.9s]

There are also surprisingly high odds for scarf Jirachi to win against Pokémon like scarf Magnezone, or scarf Heatran if they are paralysed.

Show Additional Percentages

### Scarf Magnezone spamming tbolt: timid 0 hp, jir: 252 attack 4 HP###
If opponent is not paralyzed, then...
jir KOed opp 961491 times, and opp KOed jir 9038509 times.
win rate by KO was 9.6 percent
Jirachi ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
Opponent ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
[Finished in 176.8s]

If opponent is paralyzed, then...
jir KOed opp 2458161 times, and opp KOed jir 7541839 times.
win rate by KO was 25 percent
Jirachi ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
Opponent ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
[Finished in 189.8s]

### Tran: scarf timid spamming fire blast 252 spec att 252 speed 4 spec def, scarf jir: 4 hp 252 att###
If opponent is paralyzed, then...
jir KOed opp 488507 times, and opp KOed jir 9511493 times.
win rate by KO was 4.9 percent
Jirachi ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
Opponent ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
[Finished in 111.0s]

### Tran: scarf timid spamming earth power 252 spec att 252 speed 4 spec def, scarf jir: 4 hp 252 att###
If opponent is not paralyzed, then...
jir KOed opp 724041 times, and opp KOed jir 9275959 times.
win rate by KO was 7.2 percent
Jirachi ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
Opponent ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
[Finished in 140.4s]

If opponent is paralyzed, then...
jir KOed opp 1971744 times, and opp KOed jir 8028256 times.
win rate by KO was 20 percent
Jirachi ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
Opponent ran out of PP in 0.0 percent of the runs.
[Finished in 181.0s]

The source code used to calculate these odds can be found here: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/9QS2wgFK#L5,8

 

[dk]

please host an invitational with jirachi banned and the domino effect bans in place (latias, clef, machamp, sleep) to give this push actual momentum. said invitational should be crowd funded to encourage effort across the board, making the data gathered more meaningful. invitees could be polled on parts of the ban package if the specifics are controversial among them.

if this process instead runs in the same vein as the slog that is standard smogon bureaucracy, then you'd be lucky if you saw the actual fruits of this by 2040. i'm still confused as to why the machamp business from months and months ago led to nothing for no really coherent reason---an outcome wildly inconsistent with the very measurable support for action (suspects =/= auto-bans; why wasn't there even a suspect?).

i would happily throw some cash at a pot for an invitational if it meant circumventing the flaccidity of the glacially paced business-as-usual approach.

 

[BKC]

...one could argue that your example of switching a Swampert into a Jirachi's fire punch being the 'correct' decision, could in fact be an incorrect one if the situation reduced your odds of winning by a substantial degree should you have gotten unlucky. It could also be the incorrect discussion if you were to get regular luck in your game but are planning to take other necessary risks later, and that extra 20% turn you are about to risk puts that plan in a state where it’s unlikely all of it will work given that you must do this as well.

There are many good Pokemon that can take on physical Jirachi. However, there are very, very few that can take on physical Jirachi without fearing an errant Fire Punch burn. If you can't switch in your Swampert - which is otherwise an incredibly sturdy answer - because you're afraid of getting burned, what are you actually switching to? It almost defeats the point of having that answer in the first place - "it's a counter, except it can't actually switch in". That is the issue here, as if Iron (para) flinch) wasn't bad enough.

i'm still confused as to why the machamp business from months and months ago led to nothing for no really coherent reason---an outcome wildly inconsistent with the very measurable support for action (suspects =/= auto-bans; why wasn't there even a suspect?).

i would happily throw some cash at a pot for an invitational if it meant circumventing the flaccidity of the glacially paced business-as-usual approach.

Unfortunately, there wasn't as much support as you'd think there'd be after close to a decade of the playerbase despising Machamp to the point of it significantly helping to destroy the tier's reputation, a sentiment so widespread there were years of DPP Cup threads with *clicks Dynamic Punch* in the OP (1, 2, 3). I can't recall a single instance of someone praising what Machamp does, asserting it as a crucial metagame presence, until the possibility arose of removing this element that had only been loathed until then. I don't know what it is - contrarianism / too cool for school as an identity, fear of change, wanting to use Champ for themselves, or the misguided opinion that Champ punishes greedy fat Clef teams (with RNG, in a way that's totally healthy and couldn't possibly be replaced) - but yeah this was sadly not met with the universal agreement that you'd expect based on player sentiment from any point before its discussion as a suspect.

 

[ABR]

I support a jirachi test and am almost certain that clefable etc will be easier to deal with due to less resources poured into rachi-proofing teams.

More broadly speaking though I, a non-mainer, am officially lending credence to the movement. Carry on, with grace.

 

[SFG]

100% supporting a Jirachi suspect as well as the bans proposed in OP if that suspect leads to a ban

#MakeDPPGreatAgain

 

[Laurel]

I support going one step at a time but I am absolutely open to a suspect.

 

[Pengu]

I think a Jirachi suspect is better than just a straight up ban. Do I think it should get banned? Probably not. That's just because I think Jirachi keeps a sort of balance. If we ban Jirachi, many things may get out of hand.

I think Machamp may already warrant a ban, but it's not because it's broken. It's because Machamp is just too uncompetitive and lands a lot of battles into the fate of luck. Machamp can swing almost guaranteed victories, which can let the worse player win. In a competitive game, the best player should win. Not the worst player with better luck.

This same argument can be made with Jirachi, and I can definitely understand that. There is also some proposition to ban Iron Head, but that makes little sense to me. I think the tier is at a pretty decent level right now, but a Jirachi suspect and maybe a Machamp suspect test would be pretty nice to see. Necessary? Not really. But it would be really nice if it happened.

 

[oiponabys]

I am in favor of a Jirachi test. In fact, I would fully support a Serene Grace suspect, as this ability is flawed from a competitive standpoint, promoting unhealthy dynamics such as paraflinch and freeze/burn fish like OP mentionned. Blissey would not miss Serene Grace, while Togekiss is barely played and does not contribute positively to the metagame, for similar reasons to Jirachi.

I agree with the council's current plan to look at the mentionned pokemon in OP's post, following Jirachi's ban.

 

[Laurel]

I am in favor of a Jirachi test. In fact, I would fully support a Serene Grace suspect, as this ability is flawed from competitive standpoint, promoting unhealthy dynamics such as paraflinch and freeze/burn fish like OP mentionned. Blissey would not miss Serene Grace, while Togekiss is barely played and does not contribute positively to the metagame, for similar reasons to Jirachi.

I agree with the council's current plan to look at the mentionned pokemon in OP's post, following Jirachi's ban.

This is actually a good idea that I havn’t seen discussed much or at all. I’d support suspect testing Serene Grace over Jirachi — since it’s Serene Grace that really makes Jirachi feel oppressive. It also takes care of Togekiss, which, while under explored, is equally uncompetitive.

 

[N_Mareanie]

If Jirachi is the only problematic pokemon with Serene Grace, look at Jirachi, not Serene Grace. please don’t fall into a rabbit hole of meaningless discussion

 

[Stories]

Hi I think the Pokemon that can beat the likes of PDef Zapdos and Milotic with a move that does like 8% if sand is up should be a very blatant ban, not to mention the sheer headache of guesswork that CM sets are and the unkillable nature of Body Slam + Wish sets. I don't think Jirachi does as much "good" for the metagame as other people let on, it just beats a lot of stuff because of sheer ignorance. The only thing I'd really praise it for is beating Latias but if Latias becomes too much without Jirachi then just ban that too lol. Jirachi is simply too good at everything it does and it can do everything you could possibly want from a Pokemon. I'm not sure if my DPPPL or ADPL records speak for much as I'm still fairly new to the gen but Jirachi has always been the biggest nightmare in the builder because simply nothing beats it without first giving it multiple turns of breathing room to scout the set (besides your own Jirachi, super healthy!). If other things becomes broken if Jirachi leaves, tier properly like any other format would.

 

[Excal]

I don’t think Jirachi is banworthy or broken. I don’t think Jirachi is the best or even the second best Pokemon in the tier. Boasting the highest power creep without team preview, DPP appreciates Jirachi’s role compression, centralization, and gatekeeping of cheesy strategies. DPP is quite a balanced metagame, imo, and I’m fully uncertain if a Jirachi ban would improve upon that. In fact, I think banning Jirachi is likely to cause more balance issues than the status quo.

While banning Jirachi is likely intended to increase the metagame’s pace, I feel that the opposite is much more likely to occur. Jirachi leaving makes it easier to coast with stall and uninteractive teams, as Fire Punch and Body Slam serve to cripple defensive Pokemon like Skarmory, Hippowdon, Bronzong, and Latias over a longer game, and Iron Head is a crucial obstacle for slow & cheesy setup like Bulk Up Machamp and Calm Mind Clefable. Physical Jirachi is latently oppressive for these styles to deal with, which imo is a positive attribute. On offense, Lum Berry is a popular item to deal with the likes of Will-O-Wisp Rotom, Thunder Wave Clefable, Spore Breloom, Lava Plume Heatran, and Dynamic Punch Machamp. Jirachi's status inflicting moves are already naturally accounted for on offensive structures without having to bend your back.

I don’t find Iron Head to be uncompetitive. Unlike Machamp’s Dynamic Punch, it’s easier to pivot around Jirachi because it lacks the power to punish switchins as hard and lacks 100% confusion which reduces counterplay significantly. Think Starmie (faster than Jirachi) switching into Iron Head/Fire Punch with Natural Cure as an example on a balanced team. If Jirachi is mowing down your teams, I feel that far more often than not it’s a “play better” and/or “build better” issue. I don’t see Jirachi inflicting hax to be more detrimental to games than, say, +1 Gyarados flinching a defensive check with Waterfall, which ends many games almost instantly, or Machamp fishing for paralysis as it spams Substitute, whereas Jirachi often needs to chain several sequences of hax that aren’t mathematically more probable than those examples.

What all experienced DPP players can agree on is that additional action will need to occur if Jirachi is banned, hence the proposal to sequentially ban other Pokemon. While the OP cites over 50% of 2024 qualified survey participants to find Jirachi problematic, it neglects to mention the more important statistic that 69% did not align with taking tiering action. Every tier has problematic elements that would have similar results in a survey. DPP will always have issues, and similar ones will exist even if Jirachi is banned.

As for if Jirachi is banned, Sleep and Machamp absolutely need to go at a bare minimum. Breloom already borders on unbalanced (I think it is, tbh). Sleep is an unhealthy mechanic, and DPP fundamentally lacks the resources and counterplay to deal with it. Removing Jirachi, who role compresses a Breloom check offensively and defensively, will only exacerbate this problem. As for Machamp, Jirachi is one of the most secure defensive checks which can force it out with Iron Head. This Pokemon is already uncompetitive imo, and it only stands to be a stronger force if Jirachi is banned. Latias is likely to be banned as well, which imo provides DPP with a healthy balance, helping enable many offensive and defensive strategies in unique ways. This is the tip of the iceberg -- as the tier changes dramatically and slowly after each ban, we do not know how many Pokemon we will have to ban afterwards; we just know it won't stop at Jirachi.

Overall, I fundamentally disagree with taking action which will result in a complete upheaval of an old generation which is otherwise stable, balanced, and highly appraised in the 2024 survey. I do not trust that the necessary bans following Jirachi’s departure will be properly implemented. I think banning Jirachi would be a huge mistake that cannot be rectified. “Just unban it if it ends up being a bad change!” Yeah, it doesn’t work like that. Once Jirachi is gone, you can be certain that it's gone for good. I am against suspecting Jirachi and hope that the playerbase can resonate with this post.

 

[DeepBlueC]

I don’t think Jirachi is banworthy or broken. I don’t think Jirachi is the best or even the second best Pokemon in the tier. Boasting the highest power creep without team preview, DPP appreciates Jirachi’s role compression, centralization, and gatekeeping of cheesy strategies. DPP is quite a balanced metagame, imo, and I’m fully uncertain if a Jirachi ban would improve upon that. In fact, I think banning Jirachi is likely to cause more balance issues than the status quo.

Can you explain what cheesy strategies that Jirachi is currently gatekeeping? I see Jirachi actually facilitating Machamp-based teams by spreading paralysis to most Machamp switch-ins, like Hippo or Zap for that matter.

While banning Jirachi is likely intended to increase the metagame’s pace, I feel that the opposite is much more likely to occur. Jirachi leaving makes it easier to coast with stall and uninteractive teams, as Fire Punch and Body Slam serve to cripple defensive Pokemon like Skarmory, Hippowdon, Bronzong, and Latias over a longer game, and Iron Head is a crucial obstacle for slow & cheesy setup like Bulk Up Machamp and Calm Mind Clefable. Physical Jirachi is latently oppressive for these styles to deal with, which imo is a positive attribute. On offense, Lum Berry is a popular item to deal with the likes of Will-O-Wisp Rotom, Thunder Wave Clefable, Spore Breloom, Lava Plume Heatran, and Dynamic Punch Machamp. Jirachi's status inflicting moves are already naturally accounted for on offensive structures without having to bend your back.

How is Jirachi going to make it easier to coast with stall? In fact, removal of Jirachi means that offensive teams don't have to Jirachi-proof their teams all that much and can actually threaten stall much more. Additionally, Wish Jirachi is such a crucial defensive backbone to a lot of stall teams, so by eliminating this Jirachi variant, stall becomes less strong. If your "offensive" way of dealing with pokemon like Skarm/Hippo/Zong is to threaten it with status from Jirachi, then that's a whole another issue to deal with because it's one thing to fish with Jirachi against these mons and it's another to rely on Jirachi to break these mons.

I also don't think that Jirachi is what is stopping CM Clefable in the first place, because the latter is actually one of the more better equipped mons to deal with Iron Head Jirachi because it's not vulnerable to paralysis or sand chip. No one's first thought when dealing with CM Clefable is "let me slap on a Jirachi", when instead it'd be to use fighting-types, TTar, explosion, or trick users (as far as offense goes). But for the sake of the argument, let's say Jirachi is great at beating CM Clefable: is Iron Head flinching the healthiest way to deal with CM Clefable, or does it just happen to be the most convenient?

Lum Jira does not help with Lava Plume Tran, but it does help with the other mons. However, what you've pointed out about Lum Jira is the convenience, i.e., a catch-all feature of Jirachi. There's nothing about this point that negates Jirachi's negative influence.

I don’t find Iron Head to be uncompetitive. Unlike Machamp’s Dynamic Punch, it’s easier to pivot around Jirachi because it lacks the power to punish switchins as hard and lacks 100% confusion which reduces counterplay significantly. Think Starmie (faster than Jirachi) switching into Iron Head/Fire Punch with Natural Cure as an example on a balanced team. If Jirachi is mowing down your teams, I feel that far more often than not it’s a “play better” and/or “build better” issue. I don’t see Jirachi inflicting hax to be more detrimental to games than, say, +1 Gyarados flinching a defensive check with Waterfall, which ends many games almost instantly, or Machamp fishing for paralysis as it spams Substitute, whereas Jirachi often needs to chain several sequences of hax that aren’t mathematically more probable than those examples.

Regarding the "easier to pivot part because it lacks the power to punish switchins", I would urge your or anyone to read mbh's post here about Jirachi, which I feel is still relevant to this date: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/dpp-ou-metagame-discussion-thread.3685887/post-8907349. It explains how using a certain pokemon as a pivot is costly, and how you cannot undo your action once you're barraged by a series of consecutive flinches.

As for Starmie switching into Jirachi's Iron Head/Fire Punch, please "play the tape." How is your Starmie going to force out Jirachi unless it has Thunder Wave? So your Starmie switches into Iron Head, then Starmie attacks it with Hydro or Surf, then Jirachi Body Slam paralyses the Starmie, and then proceeds to flinch it down. Unless Starmie has Thunder Wave, it's not going to win the 1v1, especially if you are up against a Wish Jirachi variant. Add in sand to the equation, and Starmie is in a worse spot.

"Jirachi often needs to chain several sequences of hax that aren’t mathematically more probable than those examples" and yet we have seen it time and again that this happens so often. But of course, anyone can delude themselves into watching these below replays and think this is a perfectly healthy metagame right now or that "DPP is at its best."

1) Jirachi flinching down an almost full health Magnezone (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen4ou-1056553765-4mqizakml2wlrnx2oetha69ydmva9hkpw)
2) Jirachi beating an Impish Gyara 1v1 (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-563525)
3) Jirachi landing a series of flinches on Hippo + Clefable to knock them BOTH out (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-623720)
4) Another replay of Jirachi doing Jirachi things (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4ou-677429)

I'd have more Jirachi replays, but they got wiped out thanks to that whole replays dying fiasco.

As for if Jirachi is banned, Sleep and Machamp absolutely need to go at a bare minimum. Breloom already borders on unbalanced (I think it is, tbh). Sleep is an unhealthy mechanic, and DPP fundamentally lacks the resources and counterplay to deal with it. Removing Jirachi, who role compresses a Breloom check offensively and defensively, will only exacerbate this problem. As for Machamp, Jirachi is one of the most secure defensive checks which can force it out with Iron Head. This Pokemon is already uncompetitive imo, and it only stands to be a stronger force if Jirachi is banned. Latias is likely to be banned as well, which imo provides DPP with a healthy balance, helping enable many offensive and defensive strategies in unique ways. This is the tip of the iceberg -- as the tier changes dramatically and slowly after each ban, we do not know how many Pokemon we will have to ban afterwards; we just know it won't stop at Jirachi.

This is just conjecture and fear-mongering. We've never had a Jirachi-less metagame to know what it'd actually be like.

Overall, I fundamentally disagree with taking action which will result in a complete upheaval of an old generation which is otherwise stable, balanced, and highly appraised in the 2024 survey. I do not trust that the necessary bans following Jirachi’s departure will be properly implemented. I think banning Jirachi would be a huge mistake that cannot be rectified. “Just unban it if it ends up being a bad change!” Yeah, it doesn’t work like that. Once Jirachi is gone, you can be certain that it's gone for good. I am against suspecting Jirachi and hope that the playerbase can resonate with this post.

On what basis are you saying that if Jirachi is gone, then you're certain that it is gone for good?

You may be of the position that there shouldn't be complete upheaval of an old generation, whereas I am of the position that "foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" and this is even more the case when we're simply perpetuating the presence of an incredibly unhealthy mon in the tier for the sake of our adherence to not wanting to leave our comfort zone.

 

[Drifting]

Even the people who want Jirachi in the tier agree that the pokemon is borderline, at this point is there any reason not to just put up a suspect test and let the community decide?

Gating the suspect test behind an arbitrary threshold of surveys seems to be putting the cart before the horse, considering that a suspect test is little more than a survey itself, not an automatic condemnation of Jirachi being banned.

If there are concerns about the metagame after a possible Jirachi ban like Latias or Clefable (I think the link between Machamp and Jirachi in the OP is tenuous at best lol but thats aside the point) you can just wait until after SPL to do the suspect.

DPP Jirachi has got to be one of the most litigated pokemon ever. I don’t think there’s any DPP player who doesn’t have a deeply entrenched opinion on the thing already. Let’s just finally get it over with so people can stop talking about this stupid pokemon.

 

[Le Don]

Well, nothing has really changed since my post here.
TL;DR : Ban Iron Head ( we can't because of OG Council ) -> don't ban Jirachi. If Ban Rachi -> Ban Lati -> Ban Spore -> Ban Clef -> total Chaos. Ban No Guard. Ban Togekiss. Ban Confuse Ray. Make DPP SPL Bo3.

The last survey results were quite particular. I require a closer look.

It's not standing with Jirachi. It's opposing to the destruction of a tier. The negative consequences of this are very much in the cards. After all the bans that will happen because of a SINGLE ban, I can easily see ZapMie being horrible to deal with. Don't speak about Roserade : the recent good teams proved that the MU can be winnable ( I'm ofc talking about the very modern paraspam teams that have been used during last DPP Cup oh and btw Jirachi does nothing to these Rose teams ). Infernape / Gyarados can maybe become also a problem. I'm also pretty sure that all the people that wanted to keep Dugtrio to instead ban Clefable will raise again because their only arguement was " CM Clef x Jirachi structure makes Dugtrio broken ".
The light here is harsh.

 

[TyCarter]

Support a jira suspect although not really sure where I stand atm wrt banning or not banning Jira as a whole, although that ultimately will come down to the route that this gets to (assuming we get to that stage). I sympathize with ppl who want it banned entirely but also recognize that it's a critical piece to the metagame.

However, it's quite obvious to anyone with a working set of eyes that the core issue of Jirachi is Iron Head in and of itself. While I find this website's reluctance towards complex bans comes at level that's detrimental at times. This is one of those rare cases where a complex ban of something like flinch move + serene grace complex ban would be productive.

Ban Jirachi route -> Ban Sleep Moves and Lati at same time -> Ban Clef.
Ban Flinch Moves/IH + Serene Grace route -> suspect sleep or not do anything else.

addition blabber regarding Sleep in DPP

However, I think at minimum regardless of what the Jirachi outcome is, sleep needs to be look at as well as sleep moves in dpp is quite frankly not very healthy for the metagame on its own and our options of good sleep absorbers are very limited but that's a separate rant altogether that I'll elaborate on more later.

 

[ABR]

Step by step process of how this would actually go

- Jirachi gets banned
- Sleep gets banned (should be done anyway)
- Not one other thing is broken
- Profit

We also can hold a retest at a later point to reassess if there are indeed negative consequences (hint: there won't be)

 

[Conflict]

Personally don't really see a big problem with current DPP and would certainly prefer an Iron-Head-Ban over anything more substantial. But I also dont think Jirachi getting banned is that big of an issue. I will miss the cool sets (CM, MixRachi) most likely but its a small price to pay for actually being able to use Offense that doesnt just drop to Para-IHead-FP-Rachi (1 para/burn can ruin Offense only shot at breaking through bulky Rachi after all).

I dont think Jirachi is as integral defensively as you guys make it out to be either and I dont believe that any additional bans will be necessary after. DPP has a plethora of bulky Steels that can fill Rachi's void (scizor comeback???).
A lot of the perceived additional problems if Rachi is gone seem to assume that the entire meta stays the same just without Jirachi in it to keep bullshit away. I doubt that will be the case. Now Offense won't have to run multiple contingency checks to not auto-lose to lucky (not even due to Serene Grace...) Jirachi's which frees up a LOT of building resources. I think right now Jirachi is the biggest obstacle to building a good Offense because it forces a lot of Rachi-would-be-checks to run Leftovers/Lum to not get bullshitted. With Jirachi gone Heatran, Empoleon, Gyara (even Lucario vs non-FP-Rachi sucks if you have to risk Para) can now feasibly run many of the other and honestly more exciting item options that help shore up weaknesses on Offense (Resist-Berries!).
Stall will probably lose the most because Rachi provided somewhat of a blanket check to threats with Para/Burn-shenaningans but there have been plenty of good stall builds in the past without Jirachi so Stall will most likely be fine.

This potential Jirachi-less meta kinda reminds me of 2009-2010 DPP where Latias roamed free and Jirachi was seen but back then we didn't really have Jirachi's best set figured out so most Jira's were Scarf, CM or Mix (almost no BSlam-Wish-sets) and the meta back then was pretty acceptable. Other steels often ended up being preferred (like Meta/Scizor for a lot of Offenses). No Jira also means that Tyranitar-Offense (Lead + Support-TTar + 3 Offensive Mons + Scarfer/Prio) gets a bit better and that kinda build doesnt really have much issues with anything aside from Jirachi. Ojama and friends used to spam those kinda teams (like Dnite, TTar, Breloom, Metagross, Gyara, Flygon or something?) in SmogTour back then to great success. That metagame (like 2014/2015?) was pretty fire and led to many of the best DPP battles I have seen/played. Only difference to now would be that Latias is now a thing but Latias has good defensive qualities and our current metagame options seem to deal just fine with it. Could be the greatest DPP meta yet?

I'm not at all concerned about Sleep or Latias being a problem. For Lati there are plenty of checks still and Tyranitar gets somewhat boosted by Rachi being gone (cant tech TTar into Jirachi Ihead but its techable into a lot of other options that tend to give it trouble like Loom) which keeps Lati manageable. And Sleep will be counterbalanced by having more traditional Offense mons getting a viability boost that are less good in the current meta (for example: Infernape, MixNite, etc.) and DPP has a lot of sleep counterplay with Sleeptalk + random Lum Berries.

Personally I also hate playing against Clefable because it can be really hard to pressure at times (can't rly pressure it with doubles) but thinking about it a lot of its power is derived from the fact that it combos so well with Jirachi. Jirachi tends to cover a lot of the things that pressure Clefable and many Mons that could threaten Clefable cant really do so without opening the team up to Jirachi (see: Offense with Boom-Tran vs Clef+Jira-teams; blow the Heatran up on Clef and suddenly Jirachi becomes an issue) or by having to run other suboptimal choices in the back.

I say give it a whirl. Let the meta settle and don't clamor for more immediate changes. There's imo a good chance this new meta will be great.

 

[crayon pop]

I do not support a Jirachi suspect. First, in my personal opinion, I do not find Jirachi to be overbearing on the metagame for the reasons Excal and Oatmons have provided above. The majority of DPPers have adapted their team building to address Jirachi, and I have always found that a large part of understanding DPP is maximizing the probability management against paralysis and flinch moves. I’ve never considered Jirachi to be inherently problematic on its own, or even with ancillary support such as item-removing moves (i.e., knock-off). From my perspective, the real problem is and always has been paralysis, and paralysis spam is going to persist in different forms irrespective of whether Jirachi is removed. I would also argue tactical use of your own Jirachi is sometimes an effective way to respond to opposing paralysis-based strategies.

With that being said, I understand this thread is about a Jirachi suspect only and will spare you all from discussing the minutiae of what is wrong with DPP. I am against the suspect for a few reasons. In my opinion, a lot of people are not appreciating the big picture of what Jirachi adds to the metagame. I agree with Pengu that Jirachi is what keeps the tier in balance, and removing it would add more volatility to a metagame that is already volatile enough from a lot of people’s perspectives. There are going to be long-term and unintended consequences to the metagame that we cannot fully appreciate with just a two (three?) week suspect test. DPP is an old metagame that develops at a slow pace, and the player base (including those who build) is not nearly as active compared to SV OU, for example. Because of this, even if a suspect test does have a temporary positive effect on the metagame, we might not understand the full consequences of removing Jirachi until much later. We have seen something similar before with the Latias suspect test back in 2018. During the suspect stage, by far and away the common set was Specs. It was not until months post-suspect that the player base adopted the usage of the more problematic defensive thunder wave version.

I do not see the point in even suspecting Jirachi when there is no evidence that it will improve what is otherwise a stable and well-settled metagame. If you want my opinion on this, I have always held the view that removing Jirachi will result in the metagame becoming considerably worse in the long term, especially once replacement paralysis strategies become more developed over time. Finally, I want to address DeepBlueC’s response to Excal’s post that removing Jirachi may not be a permanent measure if it does not work out. If I am understanding the proposal correctly, it seems like the more immediate course of action would be to move forward with subsequent bans rather than bringing Jirachi back. As is the case with all old generations, the metagame responds slowly, and I imagine it will take a very long time to identify and address exactly what is wrong through multiple rounds of suspect testing and the player base adapting. I would much prefer not to disturb the tier as it is currently, especially when there is no common consensus among the player base that there is anything wrong with DPP in the first place.

 

[BKC]

Historically, the "cheesy teams" that Jirachi would stand in the way of were either Azelf lead offenses that tended to bowl over balance teams at the time - Rachi fulfilled the purpose of halting the momentum they required to do so, making them infinitely easier to deal with - and, in a similar vein, being very good at taking on a number of threats that felt "uncounterable" for bulkier teams at the time (SubSplit Gengar, mixed Dragonite) and generally being effective enough at planting itself in front of offenses in general, thus providing stability for a tier / playerbase overwhelmed with the sense that there was too much offense (recall the years of "this gen is too strong to not have team preview"). These teams were never cheesy, though, and I have to admit I can't think of anything I'd consider cheesier than paraspam itself, which is of course largely facilitated by Rachi and not really kept in check by it, either.

Jirachi the stallbreaker is even worse than the sentiment that Machamp is one, especially when you say its stallbreaking tools are Body Slam and Fire Punch to take on, uh, Skarmory and Hippowdon. Is this what our current POV of stall is? Something so unbreakable that we have to rely on getting this kind of luck? (Again, I have to emphasize that if we're in a world where Jirachi Fire Punch burn is going to threaten to beat everything that isn't Leftovers Heatran or Clefable - and no Jirachi is not a good Clef answer at all lol - then that just exacerbates the Iron Head of it all even further.)

The idea that stall becomes outrageously difficult to break without this Pokemon whose whole modus operandi is pure fishing is ridiculous. It's not even the best form of Jirachi at messing with stall (and as cool as those sets are they don't tend to be Prime Stallbreakers) let alone an essential piece of the effort as a whole. I don't really get this whole aversion to stall anyway - it certainly isn't overpowered, so what's the concern? I just want to have fun and this building-restrictive style cramps my desire to use Cool Stuff? Not to mention that Jirachi is one of the Pokemon that holds stall teams together the best, whether as a wall or, far more dangerously, as a late-game threat that finishes you off once you're weakened (this is far more difficult to handle because of how fast/dangerous Rachi is already, and the stall team doesn't have to wall you forever, just get you into range for it to clean up). This is why we don't see Lucario anymore, for instance.

The sentiment that we need to demonstrate the post-Jirachi metagame would be better without trying it out recalls the famously incompetent XY OU council who met every request for a suspect with "prove that the metagame would be better without it" (when no such proof ever actually exists). It is bullshit reasoning to maintain the status quo. This Starmie example - one of the most easily exploited Pokemon ever, and a terrible non-answer to Rachi in all but the most idyllic circumstances of a perfect matchup and probably an incompetent opponent - feels similarly dishonest. If there is so little faith in the system to undo a potential misstep - i.e. we have to be absolutely certain we "got it right" to the point before even trying it out, where any doubt means we are forced to not even try and therefore settle - then the system should be reworked or thrown out entirely. If we're going to be so distrustful of the general playerbase's competence in such matters (a sentiment I'm not completely unsympathetic to, fwiw) to the point where we're going to make up nonsense to prevent them from getting a chance to mess it up, then let's dispense with the charade and just go full dictatorship. If you just like the metagame as it is and want to say "fuck you, don't change it", that's fine, but be open about it.

The final entry in this little trilogy of bullshit is the "Jirachi's odds aren't that good, actually". That's not how it works in practice, or else this thread would not exist (and I know that anyone making this argument knows this - you cannot play DPP and not know it). Even if it is mathematically improbable, it still rewards players for making these poor moves too often, a negative dynamic (a la Machamp DPunch - which, yes, I agree we should axe). Just bc it's unlikely won't stop players (not just bad ones, either, plenty of good ones are famous for making Rachi's Iron Head their go-to answer to everything) from going for it and often coming out on top (it's not actually that unlikely considering it's not like not getting flinched = the problem is solved).

Agree sleep is stupid, we shouldn't keep Jirachi in the tier just because it has one set that takes it on (two if you count Lum) but should just axe sleep regardless of whether Jira stays or goes, and for that matter Machamp as well (since DPunch is not on the table, sadly). Incidentally, I also sympathize with Gyarados Waterfall being fishy and dumb in the exact same vein, which is why at some point I proposed we ban all moves with flinch rates 20% and higher. This was also dismissed because of precedent or whatever, but it'd work! (No, the fact that Gyarados and Swampert's Aqua Tail, which is stronger actually, has 90% accuracy is not an accurate against getting rid of Waterfall, in the same way there's no issue with Draco Meteor's accuracy.)

I'll be fine with DPP whether or not we make any changes at all. I think we shouldn't be so terrified of change, though, especially when this has the potential to make the game better!

 

[Excal]

In response to the support demonstrated in this thread, the DPP Council has organized a re-survey to gauge how the qualified playerbase feels about Jirachi. We sent it out to the same participants as the previous one but updated the DPP Cup and circuit requirements to reflect those of 2024 as opposed to 2023 (since DPP Cup and top 16 from circuit hadn't been finalized at that point). We will follow up with the survey's results next week once the deadline passes.

i'm still confused as to why the machamp business from months and months ago led to nothing for no really coherent reason---an outcome wildly inconsistent with the very measurable support for action (suspects =/= auto-bans; why wasn't there even a suspect?).

We've heard several complaints about this and have decided to also add Machamp to this survey in a similar vein, although Jirachi is our main priority right now. For those who haven't read the Machamp thread from a couple months back that this references, feel free to click here if interested.

 

[Kristyl]

I agree with Excal,Osgoode and Le Don that a Jirachi suspect test is a bad idea. I don't like that 50% of people saying Jirachi is problematic but shouldn't be banned has been extrapolated into the making of this thread, especially when the more relevant statistic is if people actually do want it banned which 70% of people said no to. Personally I believe that something can be "problematic" but you can still want it in the tier, and if I knew that me voting "problematic but no tiering action should take place" would help contribute to the making of this thread then I wouldn't have voted for it and it shouldn't have been an option in the first place, I think the language being used is way too vague and leads to confusion. It should also be mentioned that on that same survey people seemed generally happy with the state of DPP giving it an 8/10 on average which furthers my point that this wasn't the time to make this thread.

I've seen people argue that a suspect test is just a poll and if 70% of people voted that they don't want Jirachi banned then what's the issue with running a suspect test? I would be more open to this idea if the tournament reqs for people who get to vote on suspect tests were a bit stricter. Making top 16 of the circuit,DPP Cup top 8 or Finals of a seasonal is not a high enough barrier of entry in my opinion, and encourages random people who don't really care about DPP that much to vote. It can be debated what these tournament reqs should be but as it stands I dislike them, also just want to say that if this does go through to a suspect test then please make ladder reqs really hard, for similar reasons as to why I think tournament reqs should be. I should add too that the tournament reqs aren't decided by the DPP council they're decided by the OGC head as far as I know, I feel this is also an issue and we should make a seperate thread discussing suspect tests for old gens in my opinion.

I want also want to say I think the argument "well we can just suspect test Jirachi again in the future if the metagame turns bad" is not grounded in reality. If Jirachi goes it is a permanent change and we're deciding to go down the path of creating a new tier which may or may not be better and in doing this we're sacrificing what I think is already a great tier. What if the meta game gets worse but not bad enough for people to want to admit the Jirachi meta game was better? As time goes on people we will get new players and people will also just forget what the Jirachi meta game was like. Also people are just generally unwilling to admit they were wrong, so yea I don't buy this argument at all.

As for Jirachi itself I'd like to argue that it isn't broken and that I think removing it from the tier would be bad for DPP OU in the long term. I'll start by saying that at times in the past Jirachi has been seen as a swiss army knife that fits on every style and has a plethora of different unpredictable sets but as DPP has become more "optimized" I find this less and less to be the case. Jirachi doesn't have the offensive output for more fast paced styles of teams, the other steels such as Metagross or Empoleon usually take its place there. The exception to this would be Lum SuperRachi which has seen a bit more use recently as it's role compression of speed,steel typing, and late game cleaning is really unique to it and can't be replicated by something like Empoleon for example due to Empoleon's speed tier making it lose to mons like OffCune,Lucario or Breloom. On more spikes based stall teams I often find myself preferring Bronzong or Gliscor for the extra spikes immunity and insurance vs Jirachi, Bronzong and Gliscor do similarly well vs offense as Jirachi. I'd say in general that I find spikes based Jirachi teams to be weak to something like a well built DD Tyranitar team (especially when paired with spikes). The overall point of this section is somewhat proved by Latias and Tyranitar overtaking Jirachi in usage over the last couple years, Jirachi also just isn't unanimously #1 anymore, personally I think it's #2 right behind Tyranitar.

When it comes to set diversity I just don't see it as much as other people do honestly, HP Ground MixJira is really bad imo as it thuds into Wish Tect variants of Jirachi, which I agree offense can not afford to be weak and give opprotunities to. Fire Punch/Thunder/IHead variants can at least fish for burns but you don't really want to play the odds game and you will probably get paralyzed anyway even with Lum, only Sub versions of this set avoid that but that comes with other issues such as being bad into grounds. In general I think people overestimate how much Ice Punch or even Fire Punch Jirachi are actually used, Wish Tect is overwhelmingly the standard outside of SuperRachi on offense teams. Plus I'd pretty confidently make the statement that any A tier DPP player should be able to identify the Jirachi set with like 95% accuracy, someone getting caught off guard by a random Jirachi set just doesn't happen much.

So with that being said I would say the main way we see Jirachi being used is on more balanced teams which typically follow a structure of:
Jirachi + Tyranitar + Spinner (Donphan/Starmie) + Flyer (Zapdos,Gliscor,Gyarados) + Filler + Filler
this style often gets classified as "paraspam" but I'd like to add that it isn't all paraspam, for example:

Spoiler

this has maybe been the most popular team over the past year and I wouldn't call it a paraspam team. Also to me there is a distinction between healthy paraspam and unhealthy paraspam, I don't think that this team:

Spoiler

is all that unhealthy or leads to bad not interactive games, in fact I think it's good that we have more balanced teams like this opposed to everything being fast offense or Clefable. An unhealthy example of paraspam would be Togekiss or Machamp teams, and I've said before that I would absolutely ban both these pokemon since I think they are not necessary to the tier and make it worse. Also a lot of the teams that I classify as healthy paraspam have pretty clear weaknesses that we just aren't seeing being abused, which is a player base issue not a tier issue in my opinion. People will say you can't target these weaknesses without being weak to stall or physical offense but I simply disagree. I will also add that I agree with Osgoode that removing Jirachi does not remove paraspam (machamp definitely still needs to go with or without Jirachi btw).

I also don't think that Jirachi is what is stopping CM Clefable in the first place, because the latter is actually one of the more better equipped mons to deal with Iron Head Jirachi because it's not vulnerable to paralysis or sand chip.

Knock Off + Iron Head is absolutely a form of counter play to Clefable, so much so that we see Magnezone + CM Clefable as a way to make this matchup easier and also we see Flamethrower Clefable to put more pressure on Jirachi too (yes Metagross/Zong also) but it's mostly for Jirachi lets be real.

I dont think Jirachi is as integral defensively as you guys make it out to be either and I dont believe that any additional bans will be necessary after. DPP has a plethora of bulky Steels that can fill Rachi's void (scizor comeback???).

It should be an accepted fact that sleep needs to be banned if Jirachi is banned, this post is already too long so I can't get into why I think that'd be bad but yeah. Jirachi's role is very unique for balance teams, nothing else replicates it in my opinion, the closest thing would be Skarmory which isn't nearly as splashable.

Spoiler

this is a simplified version as I don't wanna get into all my teambuilding "rules/philosophy" but I'll just say that using offense more the past year I've felt like I can adequately deal with Jirachi pretty reliably. I guess I will say that having disruptors like Gengar,Healing Wish Latias or Breloom makes the dynamic vs Jirachi teams more interesting and playable. You don't need to be full on hyper offense either imo.

In conclusion I'll just say personally I like that Jirachi centralizes the tier more in terms of Pokemon used and items used, I think DPP is balanced chaos at the moment and removing Jirachi would make it more chaos than balance. I think people greatly exeggerate how often "Jirachi moments" happen and when it does happen confirmation bias comes into play rather than examining your teams and plays. Not saying dumb stuff doesn't happen, of course it does, but I don't think it happens much more at all in DPP OU compared to the whatever bs of other tiers (RBY Tauros,GSC Thunder/Dpunch,ADV Rockslide/Jirachi) etc. My solution for DPP OU would be to ban Machamp,Togekiss and to make our tournament formats better by making SPL,DPP PL and RoAPL Bo3.

 

[Emeral]

My 2 cents on #MakeDPPGreatGain

The DPP OU metagame is at a crossroads. Discussions around the impact of Jirachi and Clefable have reignited debates about the state of the tier, its diversity, and its playability. The situation can be likened to a "chicken or egg" dilemma: is Jirachi exacerbating Clefable’s dominance, or is Clefable making Jirachi more oppressive? While opinions differ, I believe removing Clefable or Knock Off would address the issues more effectively than removing Jirachi. That said, I respect those who view Jirachi as the core problem conceptually.

Historical Context and Current Challenges​

DPP OU underwent a period of stagnation from 2014 to 2019. During that time, the player base dwindled, and teambuilding innovation slowed. When activity picked up around 2019, players began exploring previously underutilized Pokémon and strategies, such as Clefable and optimized Jirachi builds. This revitalized the metagame but also exposed how unprepared many teams were to handle these threats effectively.

Clefable's rise and the abuse of paraspam strategies highlighted the tier's newfound lack of diversity. The current state often boils down to stall vs. paraspam matchups, which, while effective, undermine DPP's historical charm of offering a wide variety of viable strategies and team styles.

Issues with the Current Metagame​

1. Over-centralization Around Clefable and Paralysis: Clefable teams and paralysis-centric strategies dominate the tier, overshadowing other archetypes. This stifles creativity and discourages innovation.
2. Over-reliance on Specific Counters: Offensive teams often need multiple Jirachi checks or risk being overwhelmed. Similarly, handling Breloom requires significant resources due to Spore's oppressive nature.
3. Gatekeeping Within the Community: Some influential voices in the community resist acknowledging the metagame's current state, either due to personal bias or a reluctance to disrupt the status quo. This creates an environment where constructive criticism is dismissed, and meaningful change becomes harder to achieve.
4. Reduced Diversity: DPP was once celebrated for its wide array of viable strategies. Today, the metagame feels narrow, with the same paraspam and stall archetypes dominating major tournaments like SPL.

Why is Clefable repsonsible for the Jirachi issue: Clefable’s ability to remove key items like Leftovers through Knock Off significantly weakens a wide range of bulky options, such as Tank Pert, Rest Cune, specially defensive Empoleon, and many others. These Pokémon, which could otherwise serve as reliable checks to Jirachi, are rendered completely vulnerable to Iron Head spam and easily exploited by Clefable. Beyond just Jirachi checks, Clefable’s ability to neutralize crucial defensive tools makes many bulky options virtually unplayable. This creates a restrictive metagame where previously viable defensive pieces lose their role entirely, as Clefable’s presence diminishes their utility and forces players to invest heavily in specific counter-strategies.

Clefable

Clefable holds a prominent place in the DPP OU metagame, owing to its unique abilities and remarkable versatility. However, its influence on the tier introduces a variety of challenges that may hinder the metagame's strategic diversity and balance. Below is a considered evaluation of Clefable's more contentious impacts:

1. Reduction of Viable Defensive Strategies
   Clefable's Magic Guard ability significantly diminishes the effectiveness of widely used strategies like Leech Seed from Pokémon such as Celebi and Shaymin. Similarly, status-inducing moves like Toxic, often integral to stallbreaking gameplay, become futile against Clefable, forcing players to rely on more direct approaches and reducing the overall variety of tools.
2. Challenges in Hazard Management and Double Switching
   Clefable uniquely benefits from double switches, as it remains unaffected by entry hazards and can easily recover lost health. This creates a binary scenario in battles: either the opponent has sufficient offensive pressure to threaten Clefable, or they do not. Such dynamics risk rendering certain sequences repetitive or unengaging.
3. Pressure on Strategic Moves like Trick
   The omnipresent threat of Knock Off often forces to deploy Trick prematurely. While this adds an interesting layer of interaction, it also reduces the long-term utility of Trick, narrowing strategic opportunities.
4. Limitation of Offensive Support Pokémon
   Clefable's broad toolkit invalidates or significantly hampers the effectiveness of several supportive Pokémon that are staples in offensive teams. Defensive Swampert, specially defensive Empoleon, SubToxic Zapdos, and specially defensive Heatran struggle to justify their presence in the face of Clefable’s ability to neutralize their strengths, thereby narrowing the pool of viable options for team building.
5. Restrictive Influence on Team Building
   Clefable’s access to Knock Off, combined with its bulk and utility, heavily shapes the composition of balanced teams. Its presence often necessitates specific adaptations, which can stifle creativity and lead to an overreliance on particular archetypes within the metagame.
6. Challenges for Special Offense Teams
   Due to Clefable's resilience against indirect damage and special attacks, teams built around special offense are notably less effective. This further reduces diversity by marginalizing an entire style of play.
7. Neutralization of Toxic Spikes
   Toxic Spikes, a key tool for wearing down opponents over time, is rendered ineffective against Clefable. This diminishes the viability of certain strategies and teams reliant on hazard-based pressure.
8. Encouragement of Polarizing Strategies
   Clefable’s synergy with mechanics like Knock Off and Thunder Wave facilitates the proliferation of frustrating strategies. For example, Clefable enhances physically defensive Jirachi sets, enabling them to pressure opponents with Iron Head, Body Slam, and coverage moves. Its ability to absorb status and counter common checks (such as Rotom, Zapdos, and Swampert) further strengthens this synergy, potentially centralizing gameplay around these interactions.
9. Simplification of Stall Matchups
   In stall-heavy games, Clefable limits dynamic play by creating predictable cycles. With few reliable switch-ins, opponents are forced into constrained patterns that reduce the strategic depth and complexity traditionally associated with stall play.

In conclusion, while Clefable’s unique attributes make it a fascinating addition to the DPP OU metagame, its ability to invalidate key strategies and restrict team diversity raises questions about its impact on the overall health of the tier. A balanced metagame thrives on a variety of viable playstyles, and Clefable’s outsized influence may merit a thoughtful discussion about how to preserve that balance while maintaining the tier’s richness.

Proposed Solutions​

While there is no perfect solution, addressing these issues could breathe new life into DPP OU:

1. Targeted Tiering Changes:
   • Clefable: Removing Clefable could open the door to greater diversity by reducing the viability of paraspam teams and forcing players to explore alternative strategies.
   • Jirachi: If Clefable remains, banning Jirachi may become necessary due to its centralizing effect on team structures.
   • Breloom: A potential sleep ban may also be worth considering if Spore's impact becomes too overwhelming in a post-Clefable or post-Jirachi metagame. (Personally, I believe sleep should remain banned under all circumstances.)
2. Encouraging Change: The current metagame isn’t necessarily a result of the community’s reluctance to innovate but rather the impact of over-centralizing threats. While the community should always strive to explore new strategies and archetypes, the metagame’s imbalance has led to a natural focus on limited options. Addressing these external factors can help reinvigorate the scene and restore the variety of strategies that DPP is known for.
3. Acknowledge the Issues: Whether one enjoys the current state of DPP or not, it is important to recognize the lack of diversity and the over-centralization around specific strategies. Only by being honest about the metagame's flaws can meaningful progress be made.

Conclusion​

DPP OU has the potential to be one of the most vibrant and exciting tiers, with a rich variety of viable strategies and team compositions. However, to achieve this, the community must address the current over-centralization and embrace change. Whether through targeted bans, community-wide discussions, or simply a shift in perspective, there is an opportunity to restore DPP’s historical appeal and make it a flourishing tier once again. Let’s work together to make DPP great again.

 

[Christos]

I usually opt to stay out of such conversations, but I feel that DPP doesn't deserve this amount of negative spotlight and I would like to address some of the points made. I want to keep this post relatively short, so I will try to not repeat arguments already made before.

Excessive RNG​

Jirachi does indeed induce an additional RNG element that you have to deal with, but it's not some overpowered threat that auto-wins the moment a secondary effect occurs. The problems usually occur when you build or play carelessly, but that's more of a player issue than an issue with Jirachi itself. Granted, there will be some scenarios where there is very little that you could have done differently and you were robbed, but that's an inherent problem with competitive pokemon and certainly not exclusive to DPP. Ticken and Hiro recently compiled this wonderful spreadsheet, so I decided to actually compare the winrate of each tier's 20 most successful players and the results do not seem to confirm the notion that our tier is that much more volatile than other tiers. I do not claim that RNG is a non-factor in DPP, but that its impact in the outcome of games is overstated.

Excessive restraints in the builder​

Other than the presence of excessive RNG, the other major misconception seems to be that the presence of Jirachi suffocates creativity and has shaped DPP into a tier where you cannot be successful with offense. This is simply not true and I would like to illustrate my point with some visuals. Offensive teams are not only represented in high-stakes tournament play, but are often creative and have an evident personal touch.

- Pideous's 2023 DPP Invitational teams
(Winner of the tournament)

Pideous

- BKC's 2023 DPP Invitational teams
(Runner-up of the tournament)

BKC

- Pkel SweetforU's 2024 Global Championship teams
(Winner of the tournament)

Pkel SweetforU

- M Dragon's 2024 DPP Cup & Classic Playoffs teams
(Winner of both tournaments)

M Dragon

All in all, I am not completely opposed to a suspect test for the reasons Conflict described in his post, but I believe that DPP OU is a much better metagame than what has been portrayed here and should not be turned on its head on a whim.