ORAS Ubers Pdon + Pogre Stall

[ridleyfire]

Ubers Stall

Introduction​

This is a stall team I've been working on for a little while now, and it's been working very well. I built this around a desire to see Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre being used together on stall. I think both of them have great tanking capabilities, and I wanted to take full advantage of those. I'm pretty new to Ubers so any criticism is greatly appreciated!

In-Depth​

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
Nature: Impish
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD / 4 Spe
Moves: Foul Play | Will-O-Wisp | Recover | Toxic

For my lead, I chose the standard option of Mega Sableye because it can place large amounts of pressure on entry hazard setters and status users. Foul Play is my first move because it allows sableye to do respectable chunks of damage to the many strong physical attackers in Ubers (namely +1 Atk Mega Salamence). Next is Will-O-Wisp, a nice complement to Sableye's EV spread, which allows it to stay out longer against Klefki and physical setup sweepers (excluding Swords Dance Primal Groudon) after crippling them with a burn. The main purpose of toxic is to punish the common Primal Groudon switch-ins to Sableye, or to limit the time specially offensive threats can stay out.

This pokemon can typically check/counter/wall:

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Moves: Roost | Whirlwind | Toxic | Ice Beam

Next I chose Lugia for my team because of it's excellent bulk. Lugia serves as a nice wall, being able to take a hit excellently. The defense EVs along with Multiscale allow lugia to easily take a hit from Ho-Oh before phazing it out. Lugia is also my go-to switch in for Primal Groudon, as it can tank hits from it rather easily. Whirlwind is great for forcing out threats or setup sweepers like Xerneas, and racking up Stealth Rock damage; Ice Beam allows Lugia to take care of Mega Salamence, as well as have a chance of freezing opponents.

This pokemon can typically check/counter/wall:

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Calm
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
IVs: 0 Atk
Moves: Toxic | Snatch | Soft-Boiled | Aromatherapy

At this point, my team was very weak to strong special attackers, so I chose Blissey to serve as a special wall. Toxic is mandatory for stalling, but it is also useful because it stops Blissey from getting PP stalled by forcing switches. Snatch is used to keep Blissey from being used as setup bait. Soft boiled is prefered over wish because all my pokemon already have healing moves, and because I need to keep a slot open for Aromatherapy. This set has great synergy with Lugia, because of Blissey's ability to soak up powerful special attacks which would otherwise threaten physically defensive Lugia.

This pokemon can typically check/counter/wall:

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Drizzle
Shiny: Yes
Nature: Calm
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Moves: Rest | Sleep Talk | Scald | Calm Mind

I decided that defensive Primal Kyogre should be this team's win condition and main Darkrai check due to it's immense Special bulk. As soon as Kyogre is sent out, its immediate goal is to get one or two Calm Minds in to boost its special stats up to very high levels. Kyogre can then Scald spam (this sometimes may take priority over Calm Mind boosting if there is a threatening physical attacker out), and tank its way through the opponent's team. Rest and Sleep Talk are essential as they give Kyogre a way to heal itself of its damage and its status, and because they allow it to switch into Darkrai's Dark Voids with little consequence. Sleep Talking lets Kyogre (hopefully) use either calm mind or Scald to beat Darkrai. It's also the best Mega Gengar check I have, but it is still unable to deal with PerishTag variants.

This pokemon can typically check/counter/wall:

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
Nature: Impish
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spe
Moves: Rest | Roar | Stealth Rock | Precipice Blades

At this point, the team has a glaring weakness to electric type moves from pokemon like Zekrom and Geomancy Xerneas, and no solid checks to Primal Kyogre, so I chose Primal Groudon to fix both of these issues. On a switch in, Primal Kyogre's STAB moves will fail, forcing it to switch out, or try to Ice Beam Groudon to death. Kyogre will usually choose the former. Groudon also has the ability to serve as my team's lightning rod, and absorb +2 Thunder from Xerneas with no problem. Precipice Blades is Groudon's strongest STAB move, and it is exceedingly difficult to switch into for anything isn't immune to it. Even most Primal Kyogres will be unwilling to switch into it, as it will take a sizable chunk of their health before they even get the chance to attack. Stealth Rock helps to prevent Ho-Oh from switching in and out too often. Roar is used to achieve reliable phazing of common setup sweepers like Extreme Killer or Geomancy Xerneas.

This pokemon can typically check/counter/wall:

Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
Nature: Timid
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Moves: Judgment | Recover | Defog | Will-O-Wisp

The biggest issue with the team at this point was a lack of hazard removal to keep Lugia's Multiscale active. My immediate thought was to add Waterceus, but the idea of having a third electric weakness on my team gave me misgivings. Then I thought about going for Dragonceus, but I realized that nothing on my team particularly wants to take a STAB dragon type move as it is. At this point, Fairyceus seemed like the best choice, as it doesn't stack any more weaknesses, and it gives me a solid switch-in to things like Outrage or Draco Meteor. Will-O-Wisp allows me to cripple physical attackers if Sableye has fainted. Judgment, aside from hitting dragons, can also be helpful for turning Fairyceus into an emergency Darkrai check.

This pokemon can typically check/counter/wall:

Threats​

While it's possible for me to play around Ho-Oh, it still poses a very real threat to my team and is nearly impossible to beat if Primal Groudon is gone.

Even with a soft Darkrai counter, it's still very difficult to beat this thing if Primal Kyogre hasn't gotten the necessary Calm Mind boosts beforehand.

I don't have anything faster than this so it's pretty much a guaranteed KO of one of my mons.

Kyurem White is absurdly strong. My only real way to fight back against it is with +1 SpD Primal Kyogre, otherwise this thing is gonna leave a hefty dent in my team.

Oh no, this thing. Mega Gengar is without a doubt the #1 threat to my team, and I can find just about no way to beat it. Unless I get really lucky with predicting switches, this thing can cleanly 6-0 my team. Perish Song variants are especially threatening as I have next to no way to beat Taunt / Protect / Substitute in the span of 3 turns.

Importable​

Importable

Sableye-Mega @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Foul Play
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Toxic

Lugia @ Leftovers
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Whirlwind
- Toxic
- Ice Beam

Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic
- Snatch
- Soft-Boiled
- Aromatherapy

Kyogre-Primal @ Blue Orb
Ability: Drizzle
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 248 SpD / 12 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Scald
- Calm Mind

Groudon-Primal @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 244 HP / 252 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Roar
- Stealth Rock
- Precipice Blades

Arceus-Fairy @ Pixie Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Recover
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp

 

[VictoriasDelibirds]

Hello, ridleyfire! Welcome to Smogon! This is a pretty solid team considering that you're new to the tier, but there are a few changes that I would make.

The first change I would implement is Psychic+Shed Shell over Snatch+Leftovers on Blissey. This change might seem odd at first glance, but you have extremely reliable ways of taking down sweepers that would feel comfortable setting up on Blissey, such as Lum Berry ExtremeKiller Arceus, SD/DD Rayquaza, etc. (and let's face it, you wouldn't leave Blissey in on Rayquaza, anyway). The only real opportunity cost to giving up Snatch in my eyes is that you will have a tougher matchup against CM Refresh Arceus (Darkceus immediately comes to mind in this regard, which you can take on with Primal Kyogre anyway [I'm not naming Fairyceus because I believe that you should replace it, but I'll get to that later]). However, this is preferable to getting completely obliterated by Mega Gengar, which is what will occur should you choose not to implement this change, as you mentioned in your post. Most users of Mega Gengar will not see Psychic coming, allowing you to get a free chunk of damage off on it. In addition, Shed Shell helps you to win Destiny Bond wars; if Mega Gengar Taunts you, you can simply switch out.

The next change I would make is that I would run Arceus-Water over Arceus-Fairy. The reason for this is that, as you noted, you have a horrible matchup against Ho-Oh. I would run a set consisting of Judgment or Ice Beam/Recover/Toxic/Defog. Judgment allows you to blast Ho-Oh, but Ice Beam gives you another check to Mega Salamence, should Lugia get weakened, and you beat non-Substitute Ho-Oh anyway (you beat Sub Ho-Oh if it hasn't gotten a Sub up when you bring Waterceus in). Furthermore, even if Banded Ho-Oh burns your Waterceus on switch-in, you can easily heal off the burn with Blissey at a later point in the match. In addition, Waterceus helps you to take on Kyurem-White a little better, owing to the fact that Life Orb and Specs variants will be forced to cut their own Special Attack by attempting to do some decent damage to you with Draco Meteor, and you can easily predict this and switch out to Blissey. Finally, Fairyceus is not an emergency Darkrai check. A +2 Sludge Bomb will decimate you, so you lose nothing in the way of beating Darkrai by cutting Fairyceus from your team.

Third, I would make Primal Groudon specially defensive and Primal Kyogre physically defensive. Primal Kyogre is already specially bulky, especially after a boost, and running a Bold nature allows it to take on physically-oriented threats better after you've garnered a boost or two. Now that you have Waterceus on the team, running a physically defensive Primal Groudon does nothing for you. Running a specially defensive Primal Groudon allows your team to take on Xerneas and Primal Kyogre better (Blissey outright loses to SubXern and a well-played Aromatherapy Xern, and it doesn't appreciate taking Primordial Sea-boosted Origin Pulses+it has trouble taking on CM Primal Kyogre and the very Resttalk set you possess).

Finally, I would consider removing Rest on Primal Groudon in favor of Stone Edge, Lava Plume, or Toxic. Stone Edge allows you to smash Ho-Oh, especially if you invest enough Speed in Primal Groudon to outpace it, and it gives you a way to hit Rayquaza if you predict it to set up. Lava Plume has the potential to net you residual damage on support Arceus switch-ins, Lati@s switch-ins, Yveltal switch-ins (cripples the physically defensive variant, too), Lugia switch-ins, etc. In addition, it allows you to OHKO Ferrothorn (though it's quite rare), gives you a way to hit Shaymin-Sky, and allows you to potentially cripple almost every physical attacker in the game. Toxic is a more aggressive way of dealing with some of the defensive-oriented Primal Groudon switch-ins that I mentioned (especially Lugia and support Arceus), and it has a huge surprise factor; opponents will bring in Waterceus thinking that the worst you can do is burn them, only to take a severely crippling Toxic. It is also a more reliable way of netting residual damage than Lava Plume (85%>30%), and it is better to Toxic some Primal Groudon switch-ins (such as the Lati twins) than it is to burn them. However, you do give up the ability to severely cripple physical attackers by running Toxic over Lava Plume. While Rest is a viable move on Primal Groudon due to your possession of a cleric on this team, you can't always expect to Aromatherapy whenever you please (the minute you click Rest, good opponents will look to limit your opportunities to switch in Blissey), and it makes Primal Groudon a sitting duck, allowing every set-up sweeper in the tier to take advantage of it.

All in all, you've done a fine job constructing this team. I hope I helped!
~GA

Just a little nitpick: some of the "This pokemon can check/counter/wall" sections are inaccurate. Lugia does not do any of these things to Mega Scizor, as it can throw a Toxic on your Lugia, and Excadrill is not countered by Mega Sableye. Mold Breaker allows Excadrill to set up Stealth Rock on you, and it can Toxic you upon switch-in. I do really like that you included such a section, though.

 

[oversway]

The team looks pretty solid, however I see a few weaknesses in the team's overall strategy.

First, I would give Sableye fake out over toxic. You're not weak to Groudon without it, because Lugia, Kyogre, and even Arceus can all take hits from the spdef set. Here I agree with changing Kyogre to phys def and Groudon to spdef, because you need it to check cm Kyogre, which basically runs through your team otherwise save Lugia, which doesn't appreciate burns. Also you don't have a way to hit Ferrothorn super-effectively so guaranteeing a solid switchin to it 100% of the time is fairly crucial, hence the Fake Out.

I would change Arceus-Fairy to Arceus-Dragon, as Dragon also isn't a very common offensive type in Ubers. Mence and Rayquaza rarely carry dragon type stabs, Dialga/Palkia/Zekrom are fairly rare, and the Lati twins are more often than not support defog sets that are outsped by Arceus-Dragon. It also gives you a fire resist, which esp. helps against sub Ho-oh as Arceus-Dragon can break its sub with Judgment, and hit Primal Groudon for decent damage, which is preferred as SD pdon beats almost your whole team otherwise.

Arceus-Dragon @ Draco Plate
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Judgment
- Toxic
- Recover
- Defog

Finally, an option would be to change Blissey to Ferrothorn. This can potentially allow other team members to regain health where they otherwise wouldn't be able to, such as Primal Groudon, as well as help you deal with fairy types better. However, this does make your team extremely weak to a well-played Darkrai.

Hope I managed to help, this is just what I got from a glancing look but I'll be laddering with this team and some others over the next few days to determine other possible issues.

 

[Minority]

As you noted this build has serious issues against Mega Gengar that need to be addressed, and the Ho-Oh problems are actually caused by similar choices in structure. Opting to use no attacks Blissey along with Arc Fairy and no Pursuit user lets Mega Gengar mangle this team as it pleases. Simply adding Psychic and Shed Shell to Blissey doesn't really fix the problem, and comes at a cost of running a much less optimal set. The only options defensive teams really have for Pursuit support are Tyranitar, Aegislash, and Mega Scizor. Aside from Tyrantiar, none of these work without more robust restructuring. The problem with Tyranitar, despite helping the aforementioned weaknesses, is that it then pretty much mandates Arc Fairy is changed to Arc Water, and now you've got sample stall team and have dropped P Ogre, the entire point of the team. This is why I don't want to add Tyranitar or Arc Water, but I explain this because you should be aware this build can easily be optimized to standard stall.

I think it would be far more interesting to try using Aegislash, which is a somewhat effective stall mon that allows this team to go off in a different direction from more standard arrangements. Unlike Tyranitar, Aegislash is also not wrecked by Focus Blast Mega Gengar which has become more common. This would leave the team as P Ogre / P Don / Aegislash / Lugia, which has some problems against Thunder Darkrai, other Dark-types, and minor issues against some other top threats. You can retain Arc Fairy to help beat Dark-types, however this makes Ho-Oh a bigger issue, and it's still a huge problem if Gengar manages to trap it. The P Don set also isn't very effective, and running Stealth Rock on a Resttalk mon is pretty awful. For these reasons I think Arceus-Rock is a better choice as it secures this team against Ho-Oh, Mega Salamence, Rayquaza, and Yveltal, although raises the number of Ground weaknesses to three, meaning you'll need another Ground immunity. You're sort of forced to drop Primal Groudon at this point and allocate Stealth Rock to Arceus-Rock, and then pick up Latias as a Defogger. The final slot would then be along the lines of physically defensive Clefable because you need something to cover EKiller and Thunder / Taunt Darkrai. The final build would then look like P Ogre / Arc Rock / Aegislash / Lugia / Latias / Clefable, which is strong against most threats, but may have some underlying problems that I can't immediately realize.

There is another option, and that's to drop the Mega Gengar weak mons instead of trying to fit a Pursuit user. You can pretty easily just drop Arceus Fairy for an Arceus forme that is far less Gengar weak such as Ground (you've already got Mega Sab so Ghost is kinda redundant). From here you'll need to replace Blissey for a Fairy that isn't slaughtered by Mega Gengar as hard as Arc Fairy, and due to the rest of the build Klefki is really the only thing that fits. There are a variety of problems with doing this however, first, you don't have a Defogger and must instead fight the hazard war with Mega Sab and heavy setting on your part. The second problem is that opposing P Ogre is a nightmare since you've got 4 mons that are demolished by it and no good counterplay. The third problem is that P Don is still the only thing capable of running SR, meaning that you're going to want to run a specially defensive support set rather than Resttalk. This leaves the team as P Ogre / P Don / Arc Ground / Mega Sab / Lugia / Klefki, which has additional challenges other than the ones I already noted, for example P Don is being run on a stall team when it can't really afford Rest and lacks Wish support. The team also dislikes Taunt Darkrai, isn't as strong against Mega Mence as a stall team can be, and your Skymin problem isn't really addressed, just among a few.

As for the little changes I'd suggest trying Taunt or Fake Out on Mega Sableye over Toxic. P Ogre pretty much needs to be physically defensive with Ice Beam over Calm Mind so you have a way of whittling down P Don and a better chance at taking out things like Mence. Lugia may also want some Speed investment for things like Rayquaza, but it's up to you.

Summary:
- This team has three directions: default to standard stall, run a Pursuit user, or drop the Mega Gengar weak mons
- The second direction sees Mega Sab replaced for Aegislash, Arc Fairy replaced for Arc Rock, P Don replaced for Latias, and Blissey replaced for Clefable
- The sets for the second direction would be along the lines of

(sets)

Clefable @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Wish
- Heal Bell
- Toxic

Arceus-Rock @ Stone Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 248 HP / 196 Def / 64 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recover
- Judgment

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- King's Shield
- Toxic
- Pursuit
- Iron Head

Latias @ Soul Dew
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 160 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Recover
- Grass Knot
- Draco Meteor

- Change Primal Kyogre to physically defensive with Ice Beam over Calm Mind
- Consider some Speed investment for Lugia
- This rate is already very long so I'll leave you to explore option three on your own apart from what I've already said