Metagame On The Radar (Update @ Post #111)

[DripLegend]

Welcome to the SV 1v1 "On The Radar" thread. This thread will function identically to the SS 1v1 On The Radar thread in that it will serve as a place for the community to give input on topics in the metagame the council is currently discussing. This does not mean that action necessarily has to be taken as a result of these discussions, but it does help to ensure that both the council and the community are on the same page when it comes to these discussions. As a reminder, any posts here should pertain to the current discussion and any unrelated posts should probably go in the Metagame Discussion thread.

Our first discussion will be about Scream Tail. Imagine the bulk of Umbreon with the speed of Gengar and you can see why this Scream Tail is an incredibly potent Encore Disable user. Between Rocky Helmet and its variations of Booster Energy sets, Scream Tail is incredibly difficult to take out before it locks you into Struggle. While Scream Tail isn't invincible, the lack of Steel types has many people, including parts of the council, believing Scream Tail is too much for the current meta.

Currently the council plans on voting on what to do with Scream Tail sometime this week (probably late Wednesday or sometime Thursday). Now's the time to post any thoughts you have on Scream Tail including whether they should consider a quickban, suspect testing, or no action against Scream Tail. Ideally this thread will be open longer in the future to give people more time to post so sorry about the time crunch. As always be respectful since flaming people gets you nowhere, feel free to reference the current Tiering Policy Framework when making arguments, and any one liners will be deleted

 

[zo]

I advocate for a quickban, we already know that many good players understand the power of this mon. I used to think it was kinda soon to ban it but I'm really tired of every other preview having a Scream Tail. It's broken by definition, everyone should be running it and every team needs an answer to it which normally would be fine except that the answers in themselves are pretty bad. The good Pokemon that can "answer" it are quite techable (such as Skeledirge) and the bad Pokemon are consistent but constrain teambuilding to an immense degree. Far harder to make a good team when your list of consistent answers includes F-Volc (bad and can lose to random Weakness Policy), Revavroom (unexplored and doesn't match up well against much of the metagame) and Gholdengo (solid mon, but mandatory inclusion of it on every team makes the metagame stale)

I'm quite proud of my girl puff finally being top tier in a game other than Melee but dear fucking god this thing is insane.

 

[BW Tyler]

I know I don't play this game anymore, but even I can tell that this is a Class A gimper. There is quite literally no skill in using a mon that clicks encore disable, except praying that it lives to do so, which, surprise surprise, it will. It's almost as if it poses the questions of "are you going to build a specific mon solely to counter this?" (and if you can, congrats, now what else does this counter do (except maybe die to everything else lol)?) and "can I find a way to nuke this fast enough?" But then what if the specific counters fall short in the meta? I like to view it as a question that asks a bunch of followups based on what your answer is. Also even if you can nuke it, can you actually? Because booster energy can narrow the would be counters down to the slimmest of pickings, and you don't even know what it's gonna boost before it comes in.

All this from an outsider's perspective.

 

[deddd]

after laddering for the Sigma Overload Ladder Tournament(qualled at 1787 btw haha ) I can conclude that this mon is broken as fuck. With only three sets in helmet, booster, and scarf this shit beats 90% of the metagame. With SV's 0 good steels and the fact that skeledirge loses to helmet ur pretty much forced to run a dedicated answer(most of which are ass excluding annihilape) or a backup answer even. The mon is also insanely splashable, and trick scarf means that u cant just taunt turn 1. The fact that helmet is viable also means that if u dont see booster, you still have to setguess which is fucked.

i def think the mon will get optimized w resist berries n shit so it is not getting better. Personally i want a quickban cuz a suspect would be very wacky and this mon is pretty obviously broken but idc.

 

[bilb owo]

I know I do play this game anymore, but even I can tell that this is a Class A gimper. There is quite literally no skill in using a mon that clicks encore disable, except praying that it lives to do so, which, surprise surprise, it will. It's almost as if it poses the questions of "are you going to build a specific mon solely to counter this?" (and if you can, congrats, now what else does this counter do (except maybe die to everything else lol)?) and "can I find a way to nuke this fast enough?" But then what if the specific counters fall short in the meta? I like to view it as a question that asks a bunch of followups based on what your answer is. Also even if you can nuke it, can you actually? Because booster energy can narrow the would be counters down to the slimmest of pickings, and you actually do know what it's going to boost before it comes in as it is either speed, rocky helmet, or bad.

All this from an insider's perspective.

 

[BigChuchu]

(First time posting on Smogon, please be gentle)

I feel that we're looking at the wrong culprit here. What makes Scream Tail broken is its access to Booster Energy Speed, which is like a Choice Scarf without being choice-locked. Without Booster Energy, sure it'll still be pretty fast and bulky, but there were similarly fast Encore/Disable mons last gen (Alakazam, Salazzle, Gengar, Ninetales, or even Aromatisse in Trick Room). Also may I remind you about Iron Valiant, who can also run these moves.

I think that Booster Energy as whole is uncompetitive in 1v1. It's only limited to 14 mons (who have already high BST), so it's not as if any other mon could use these... Their effect is similar to a free Life Orb or Choice Scarf without the downsides... And it can't be incapacited since it's consumed at the start of the battle no matter what...

In conclusion: feel free to quickban Scream Tail (I won't miss it), but please consider banning Booster Energy as a whole. And if you just ban Scream Tail, you may want to have a look at Iron Valiant, because that's the mon people will go to next.

 

[Shrek]

Now that Scream Tail has been banned we’ll be closing this for the time being. Thank you to those of you who posted. We initially expected this to end with a suspect test but after hearing what people had to say decided it would be pointless and opted to quickban instead.

Also to the post above this, yes we’ll be keeping an eye on booster energy as time goes on and if several paradox mons end up being broken because of it we can look into action on it. However, for the time being it was mostly just Scream Tail being the problem so we’ll be holding off on anything for now. Personally I don’t think Booster Energy will be a problem in the long run but it’s always a possibility.

 

[Shrek]

​

Alright, a few weeks have passed since the Scream Tail ban and something that has come up in discussion recently is Annihilape. Annihilape has shown itself to be one of the top mons this gen being nearly impossible to ohko paired with Rage Fist, great abilities in Vital Spirit and Defiant, incredible utility moves like Encore and Counter, and a relatively free item slot. All of these tools combined means that very few mons hard counter Annihilape. Some argue that all these tools make Annihilape broken while others say that it can only run so many tools in one set making it inconsistent. Either way, with the 2023 circuit right around the corner, the council would like to hear the community's thoughts on Annihilape. Is Annihilape broken? Is it fine in the meta? Feel free to post your thoughts on the matter here.

As it stands the council is likely leaning on some kind of vote in the near future (tentatively Sunday) on a potential suspect, but depending on what the community has to say things can change. Additionally, be respectful since flaming people gets you nowhere, feel free to reference the current Tiering Policy Framework when making arguments, and any one liners will be deleted.

Update because people don't read: We're considering adding sleep inducing moves to the vote as well after hearing people's feedback

 

[ThatOneSpork]

As the premier example of ladder, I myself am honestly leaning towards at the very least a suspect. It has the bulk, the attack, and the tools to be a broken mon. The only thing I could see being held against that thought is that, in my experience, there are just some things it has trouble beating because it isn't able to run all the tools. There are quite a few prominent mons that do beat it (mostly) consistently, with the first ones coming to mind being Flutter Mane and Gholdengo. Obviously there are more than this, and likely ones that haven't been discovered, but overall it really only feels like I lose to it when I'm using physical mons. Otherwise I seem to do generally fine, with exceptions.

 

[bilb owo]

Annihilape is fine as things stand, I like there being a good vital spirit user in the face of shit like dirge and I’m not finding it at all overpowering as it is probably around the 3rd best.

britney spears

 

[bilb owo]

Also ban sleep first, dirge has cool sets potential without the existence of sleep but shit is hella uncompetitive now.

 

[crucify]

Straight to the point idk how ape got on the radar before sleep moves (notice I said sleep moves not sleep as a whole) because yawn is so absurd. The other ones are pretty much whatever, spore annoying but there's been discussion on those/zio posted on them, but yawn and in particular yawn dirge is just absurd and uncompetitive rn. don't say ban dirge here, because yawn is what really enables it to do what it does in conjunction with resist berries, notably colbur beating non av chi yu, and the point is the uncompetiveness of yawn because it isnt quite just dirge. yawn sylv is probably 90% of sylvs rn so weak checks can get cheesed, and also yawn donbozo/ursaring/vap exist but those are mostly memes

but anyway onto ape rq to transition to my main point:
this suspect seems extraordinarily sudden because none of the sets that ape uses that cheese like roseli have not been seen much at all, like believe me i understand that mons that 100% beat ape are few and far between, but this just seems too soon and jumping the gun. like the swiss no johns (lol) startup hasn't even reached playoffs but ive watched every replay and don't recall counter/roseli winning, but you can correct me if im wrong

now main point:
sleep moves are having a far more negative impact on the tier than ape is, so go for that first. if there was ever a time to ban sleep besides hypno gar it would be in this gen now. ape can definitely become problematic with time though, so i would support a suspect in general, i just think yawn really needs to go. and if ape does get banned oh my god do sleep right after because you banned the vital spirit mon Kek

 

[Potatochan]

please keep yawn free i like beating chi yu 0.533333333% of the time

 

[Lumii]

the swiss no johns (lol) startup

pain...

okay starting off, I agree with the sentiment that sleep also should be looked at. I don't think Annihilape should be quickbanned, rather suspected, so seeing sleep being suspected alongside it would be nice.

Okay, now for the Annihilape part!

here are quite a few prominent mons that do beat it (mostly) consistently, with the first ones coming to mind being Flutter Mane and Gholdengo.

Now exactly how do these Pokemon beat it consistently? If you're using Flutter Mane, there's really only two sets that can really even try to deal with it. The first of these sets would be Choice Specs, but this gets beat by Assault Vest, as it can just run 248 / 60 bulk (iirc, going off memory from yesterday when I was building with this thing), to survive even a Modest Choice Specs Moonblast. I think your second thought here would be Charm? The issue with that one is Defiant. Not much more to be said there. Gholdengo really does just end up succumbing to a similar fate, as Choice Band Annihilape can just run Phantom Force, while Annihilape can use Assault Vest to bulk other sets.

Once we start seeing more use of resist berries like Roseli and Kasib, I think we just start seeing issues. This Pokemon just has too many things going for it this generation, as Rage Fist, Encore, and Low Sweep work frighteningly well in tandem. It can branch out to run things like Phantom Force, Gunk Shot, Close Combat, Taunt, and even Outrage. It's just a lot to deal with and it's close to impossible to have a good way to deal with every one of this Pokemon's sets. I would be very glad to see this Pokemon go.

Lastly, I would want to see a ban + retest instead of a normal suspect test, as having a ban + retest allows Kickoff to be played without Annihilape, which allows people to try out a newer meta in the playoffs of Kickoff.

 

[Return to Zero]

There's no question Annihilape is really, really, really good. I don't think it's too overwhelming to deal with though, given without Tera Water/Fairy/etc. it's not hard to chunk it for a 2HKO given Fighting/Ghost's common weaknesses. Since it's also specced for Sp.Def more often than not it ends up being reliant on getting a Bulk Up off to take physical hits, at least in my experience using it. I see some people pointing to its access to Defiant as something that pushes it over the edge, but I just don't agree. Mostly because, like what other people in this thread have said, sleep is such a powerful and common status that Vital Spirit probably does more for it anyway.

I would definitely not call them 100% consistent checks to it, but Dragapult and Skeledirge both have answers to Annihilape without Terastallizing involved, and they're both great mons that can fit on lots of teams and serve more roles than checking Annihilape. Both of them can burn it with Will o' Wisp and hit it with powerful Ghost STAB, and Dragapult can bypass Substitute sets while Skeledirge ignores its Attack increases and can play passively to keep from powering up Rage Fist. Annihilape can hold a Lum Berry and use Taunt to counter them, but this means that it can't use an Assault Vest or Leftovers to play as defensively as it may want to, or pack any coverage other than its two STABs. Annihilape can shed its mediocre defensive typing to something neither of them can hit as reliably like Water, but then either of them could Terastallize to lose their Ghost weakness as well, and that's more a conversation about Terastal anyway. (Dragapult has great Electric coverage if you're paranoid though btw)

Where I'm going with this is that Annihilape isn't a brain-off win button that forces you to pick which mons you're okay sacrificing to it or build your team with a specific counter to its shenanigans in mind. It is unquestionably really damn strong and hard to check, but that doesn't mean it needs a ban. It's not like Palafin where stopping it from doing its thing just isn't possible and you can't really do anything to it afterwards.

 

[RADU]

Honestly speaking, Annihilape is not even the best Pokemon in the tier right now, and I really don't see how it's such an issue.
I've made sets and EV spreads and tried it on the ladder for a lot a lot of games and it gets spread incredibly thin. I've liked the SpD set the most with Sitrus at first and then Weakness Policy. AV is probably the 2nd coolest set with the fact that you beat Flutter Mane (still lose to Charm which is the big good set imo) and whatnot but the loss of Encore and Bulk Up really is tragic. I can see Roseli being kinda okay but realistically you already don't need a berry to beat azumarill as long as its AV (you also lose to Charm) and the MU against flutter and sylv is still not really winning (having to hit two gunk shots as a half baked lure set is crazy). Other weakness berries are potentially usable but most likely completely unviable, I've tried Ban, but it sucks, I've tried Scarf and it's horrible. I've also seen some talk about Defiant which really doesn't make sense with sleep still in the meta, but we may re talk this point if tiering action is taken on that

It's a really good Pokemon, don't get me wrong, I just really don't see the value or abnormal potential in any of its sets. I feel like the ape sets as a whole are okay/good and putting them together is what makes the mon really good; it's not any individual set being really good and the sheer amount of sets making it broken. It's a mon that gets easier and easier to cheese/deal with as time passes, since even after Rage Fist is powered up once or twice it still doesn't hit that hard. Any tiering action would be way too premature at this point in the metagame and would be completely unfair considering we have not actually seen any real tournament use. Ladder itself tends to be way more cteamy and get away with running unviable sets that win once or twice. When actual tournament games start rolling out I predict people will realize how huge of a commitment you're running with something like Roseli ape when your sylv and azu checks are only 64% chances.

My opinions on this matter are Do Not Suspect, give it its due time and also allow the rest of the metagame to take shape. Mons like Sableye, Corviknight, Gholdengo, who are really good and have sets that guarantee beat this mon, are still heavily underused, while mons like Chi-Yu and Skeledirge are seeing the spotlight and giving this mon more appeal.

​

The move Yawn is far more of an issue with the amount of mons that successfully abuse it to high hell (Sylveon, Skeledirge and Dondozo all contending for S tier with their main set being Yawn). Of all sleep moves, Yawn was the one that was most controversial to me. While other moves have their merits for specific speed traps, yawn does not function that way at all, forcing the user to take a hit the turn it is used. Effectively speaking, this accomplishes nothing but to make the MU go down to odds, whether the opponent wakes up on the right turn or not. It's incredibly frustrating both for the sleep user and for the victim that the game is entirely taken out of the players' hands nearly every time the mon is picked.

To play Devil's Advocate, Yawn does have a real use on Skeledirge: powering up your Hex to 130 BP and/or removing Weakness Policy/Blaze prediction. On sets that run both Torch Song and Blast Burn (forgoing Hex) you usually have to predict whether your opponent is gonna proc your WP/put you in Blaze range or not, but with Yawn that prediction gets removed.

On something like Sylveon it does provide extra safety for potential Hyper Beam misses, and on Dondozo i t can technically be good on Leftovers set to heal up while your opponent is asleep.

But ultimately these arguments can't actually sustain themselves. Nobody would be wasting up two moveslots for such small advantages if it wasn't for the ability to, putting it straight, just cheese a losing matchup. It's ultimately uncompetitive and I'm surprised this move survived the previous sleep axe. Ultimately I propose a Quickban on Yawn (specifically). I would've liked a suspect but I don't think there's ever been suspects for anything besides mons. Also, Sleep Powder and Spore are fine. Less so Spore with the addition of Brute Bonnet but its good on Breloom.

 

[Shrek]

Talked with the council a little and we're open to adding a sleep slate vote alongside this. Yawn in particular is quite strong with Skeledirge, Sylveon, even Dondozo some using it, and it's something we've talked about a bit before this. Glad to see people are interested in it as well.

For clarity this is what the full voting would likely look like this if we added sleep:
- Suspecting Annihilape like normal
- Voting on individual sleep inducing moves like we did in gen 8 (not a suspect)

Just some personal notes mostly on Lumi's post, 1) sleep isn't being suspected that really doesn't work well with how suspects typically work, 2) WP Gholdengo has a pretty solid Annihilape matchup for the time being and neither Annihilape nor Flutter Mane can super consistently beat each other which is kind of funny, and 3) I'm really against doing the whole ban into resuspect thing like we did with Necrozma here. We only did that because of the ongoing PL and it's not something we should use if we don't have to, and while I don't speak for the entire council I think they would likely agree.

As for Annihilape I kind of see it like SS Zygod where it has the tools to beat actually everyone, but gets held back by being limited to only having 4 moves, 1 item, and 1 ability. What to me is the problem is that in the builder if you want to counter Annihilape you're forced to tech super hard for it like Reflect Gholdengo (which I've been trying and it honestly is a pretty solid set so whatever) or you have to run a mid tier like Banded Talonflame. Between Roseli, Weakness Policy, AV, and Sitrus it is really difficult to truly beat this guy which is why I'd like to at least see a suspect. If I had to rank one set above the others you all really need to try Roseli that shit is free on ladder and I've been spamming it for weeks.



Also Return to Zero maybe I'm misinterpreting but I see you mentioning Terasallization which has been banned in 1v1 and Palafin which is pretty unviable here and has me thinking perhaps you're thinking of OU which is an entirely separate thing? Hopefully I'm reading that right

 

[Lumii]

I'm really against doing the whole ban into resuspect thing like we did with Necrozma here. We only did that because of the ongoing PL and it's not something we should use if we don't have to, and while I don't speak for the entire council I think they would likely agree.

on second thought this would very much have been the better idea, so you can just ignore that part of my post lol

 

[Return to Zero]

Also Return to Zero maybe I'm misinterpreting but I see you mentioning Terasallization which has been banned in 1v1 and Palafin which is pretty unviable here and has me thinking perhaps you're thinking of OU which is an entirely separate thing? Hopefully I'm reading that right

I did indeed reading that wrong. Please forgive my poopoo brain skipping that part. I do think the rest of what I said is relevant though, in regards to Annihilape's sets forcing it to commit/miss out on options against some mons. If it's got Taunt/Bulk Up and Lum, it probably doesn't have other stuff it might want like Substitute or Choice Band, and so on. It can check a lot, but not everything at once, and its number of sets speaks to adaptability in general rather than being so strong it can do whatever you need it to.

 

[fruan]

wanted to talk a bit about annihilape sets before coming to a conclusion. I am not a conoisseur so this may not be everything but it is what I am acquainted with and have used.

Annihilape @ Roseli Berry
Ability: Vital Spirit
EVs: 124 HP / 116 Atk / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Counter
- Gunk Shot
- Rage Fist
- Drain Punch / Low Sweep / Close Combat

Calcs

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Beam vs. 124 HP / 252+ SpD Roseli Berry Annihilape: 331-391 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 124 HP / 0 Def Roseli Berry Annihilape: 322-381 (82.1 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 124 HP / 252+ SpD Annihilape: 342-404 (87.2 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

This is the set I've used the most and that to me felt truly "good", props to whoever came up with it first. Counter on this came in really handy, taking care of lots of weaker choiced pokemon, azu, band meowscarada and friends. The main point of the set though is to beat fairies as reliably as possible. Having the fighting type beat the fairy type is a bit of a 1v1 moment, and it does struggle notably vs bulky iron valiants but it's a really cool set that pretty reliably techs some of its intuitive counters. I liked the attack investment so I didn't have to hit 2 gunk shots vs sylveon and could just gunk -> rage fist.

Annihilape @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Low Sweep
- Encore
- Rage Fist

This was by far my least favorite set that I tried. To me annihilape running max spdef low sweep encore is a testament to how strong chi-yu is and not to how good a pokemon annihilape can be. Bulk Up with little defense is mid and with no attack investment you fail to ko everything. so while yes, you CAN reliably beat chi-yu with the ape I'm not sure if this set is the way. I kept losing to random status moves because of super weak stabs. Maybe an improvement could be dropping bulk up altogether and throwing on counter or something.

Annihilape @ Assault Vest
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 244 HP / 152 Def / 96 SpD / 16 Spe
Careful Nature
- Counter
- Rage Fist
- Bulldoze
- Drain Punch

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Haxorus Outrage vs. 244 HP / 152 Def Annihilape: 357-421 (84.5 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Gholdengo Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 96+ SpD Assault Vest Annihilape: 176-210 (41.7 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Chi-Yu Psychic vs. +1 244 HP / 96+ SpD Assault Vest Annihilape: 178-210 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Chi-Yu Overheat vs. +1 244 HP / 96+ SpD Assault Vest Annihilape: 286-337 (67.7 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 244 HP / 96+ SpD Assault Vest Annihilape: 314-372 (74.4 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I used to be an AV ape naysayer but tbh it's not terrible. I found myself running bulldoze for specs gholdengos that outsped as it wanted the bulk for flutter mane and chi-yu and making it a bit more spdef was easier than trying to outpseed. could also reliably bulldoze -> drain punch chi-yus (you lose to wisp tho).

Set I've theoried but never really tried.

Annihilape @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Impish Nature
- Counter
- Rage Fist
- Taunt
- Low Sweep

Calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Dondozo Wave Crash vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Annihilape: 223-264 (52.9 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Annihilape: 213-252 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I made this after seeing how much I liked having counter. The types annihilape is weak to are primarily special attackers and instead of trying to tech them like other sets it just tries to taunt -> counter/rage fist set up its way into the win against everything else. Imo taunt > encore on this because it more reliably charges rage fist and stops opposing setup. Taunt low sweep is also the corviknight slayer, and it can safely taunt dondozo even if choice band and then counter.

Of other sets I've heard about WP both very spdef and very defensive and those seem cool but not too drastically different than standard sitrus (WP def seems nice for the boost tho).

Overall annihilape felt really annoying in the builder and sometimes at preview depending on what team i was using. I am still undecided on how I feel about it. It has huge tech potential and pretty good abilities but can never do anything in one set.

Some Quick Counters

:clodisire: (toxic, if ur scared of taunt run mental herb)
(bulky)
(run reflect, it does 0 damage back)
(if ur scared of encore run bulk tho losing spa is sad)
(surprisingly good rn)
(taunt bulk up)
(niche found???)
(the giraffe is also surprisingly good)
In general: mental herb on random mons does pretty okay and there are some p good mons that beat everything but 1 set (dondozo, chi-yu, skeledirge, sylveon, etc...)

On the topic of sleep moves: yawn for me enables very different gameplay than other sleep moves.
Generally, a sleep abuser tries to be as fast as possible to try to chain spores/sleep powders in conjunction with sub or setup. To invest in speed is a large opportunity cost.
yawn is different from those in that it enables and encourages pokemon to fully invest in bulk. Yawn combines sleep, the ability to basically remove a pokemon from play for a few turns, with a playstyle that encourages bulky pokemon with great utility moves that are incredibly hard to ohko. As such I am leaning towards yawn being banned.

 

[deddd]

After laddering for a while I can say that annihilape is not even the best pokemon(the fish is right there man) right now and while hard to deal with in the builder, each set it has comes with a serious oppurtunity cost.

The standard spdef bulk up low sweep encore rfist set, while strong, has little immediate threat and loses to many strong threats such as booster energy great tusk and cb meow. Additionally, this set overly relies on encore to check the opponent setting up turn one, but wisp dirge and curse dondozo can easily afford to give up an item slot without sacrificing much. Weakness policy is pretty annoying but most of the time it doesnt matter because ape either dies anyway or +2 100 bp rage fist fails to ko.



A lot of people have been talking about roseli counter to beat a lot of standard checks like sylveon, meowscarada, and azu(sucks lol), but dropping moveslots for gunk shot and counter is a serious commitment. Even the encore set was fishy vs mons like corviknight but running counter sacks that matchup entirely. Counter is the only really annoying part of this set and while you beat azu and sylv, charm fmane still bodies the shit out of you and leech meow(chople which you need for speed tusk anyways) can just win. You can argue defiant but thats also a great way to lose to sylveon and yawn dirge kek. The fact that you drop encore also means that wisp chi yu just wins, while standard ape has the threat of encore, this one just gets wisped and dies. I've seen some drain punch but that loses to basically every chi yu kek.

Av sucks why would you give up the best move in the video game

Imo ape still has a considerable amount of counters from very viable mons like gholdengo(fraun technology), mherb dozo + skeledirge, wisp hex pult(if they encore wisp rage fist does 0 because it is burned), corvi(taunt ape sucks and bulk up bbird should win)

I'd say hold off on a suspect test until later and definitely do not quickban

 

[DripLegend]

I think ape has a lot of factors that lead it to be strong in this current meta, but not anything suspect worthy at the moment. It uses vital spirit well in a meta full of yawn pokemon at the moment and has sets that allow it to beat common threats. However, I believe ape is not at a point where it demands a suspect, especially with yawn being very present in the tier. Even with ape running around, I personally feel more restricted in the builder by chi-yu and pokemon like sylveon and dirge which abuse yawn heavily (even tho dirge has notable sets without it). I feel yawn should be first to go, not ape. However, I am not opposed to ape getting suspected later, since removing the best form of sleep right now can allow it to run defiant more and be more threatening to a wider variety of pokemon (mainly charm users like azu and flutter mane that beat the vital spirit sets running around).

 

[Shrek]

Thanks again to all of you who shared your thoughts! Due to the amount of people requesting us to look at Yawn and sleep we added that to the vote with Yawn and Spore being banned while Sleep Powder remained unbanned for the time being. While it seems many of you think Annihilape is strong but not strong enough to warrant a ban, the council did end up voting to suspect because it seems to be on the edge between just strong and broken given how few counters it has. The suspect will start Thursday, and thank you to those of you who shared your thoughts, they make a difference.

 

[Shrek]

Annnnd we're back again, this time to discuss a pair of mons we've had brought up within the community and council: Chi-Yu and Iron Valiant. While the original plan was to have a tiering survey most people seem to agree on what the main problem mons are and this allows us to collect more detailed feedback on them.

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Chi-Yu has proven itself to be incredibly powerful to start this generation off. With its ability Beads of Ruin, it is one of the strongest special attackers of all time. On top of that it has a solid speed stat at base 100 making it an effective Scarf user to beat mons like Dragapult and Meowscarada. Chi-Yu can also run Choice Specs to fry most non AV mons, still rolling many like Annihilape even if they max out their spdef bulk. Because of its enormous special attack, Chi-Yu has the freedom to run a variety of sets and spreads while maintaining its core matchups including newer sets like defensive Specs and even Passho. Other more widely used sets like Wisp with Weakness Policy can help take care of physical mons like Avalugg and Band Donphan, and AV can comfortably handle special attackers like Iron Bundle, Sylveon, and many Flutter Mane sets. To top it off, even seemingly consistent answers such as Dondozo and Lum Donphan are constantly at risk of losing to a single dark pulse flinch.

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Iron Valiant is another mon that has been brought up a few times. With Scream Tail being banned, Iron Valiant has made itself into the premiere Encore Disable user this generation, and was the most used mon on high ladder last month. While Iron Valiant itself is not very bulky, it has the speed stat to afford running bulk evs to compensate for this. Iron Valiant isn't just limited to Encore Disable either. With its high attacking stats on both ends and solid movepool it can be effective as an offensive mon on both ends or even mixed. Close Combat is an effective Chi-Yu answer and Specs can surprise mons like Corviknight and Clodsire. It's incredibly versatile and quickly gaining popularity as people explore it more.

A couple other mons that got mentioned were Gholdengo and Flutter Mane, but it was ultimately decided that these were a step below the others but we're still open to discussion on them if people deem it necessary.

While Chi-Yu is likely the largest threat listed, feel free to discuss any of the mons mentioned. Additionally, be respectful since flaming people gets you nowhere, feel free to reference the current Tiering Policy Framework when making arguments, and any one liners will be deleted.

 

[recti]

ok so chi yu the boss killing low lader im writing bout its influence in ladder

COUNTERS

:iron valliant:

av beats it
av beats it
snarl bulk beats
eq kills
ez
psychic kills eq dosent ohko rip
scarf kills scarf
ez

headsmash
:iron valliant: boostr goat

counter sets to counter

chople kills it (im dumb)
goat shucca berry
:annihialappe: goat chopple
overheat crit :swag: btw scarf trick should work non booster energy
:iron valliant: john cenA lorb set /SPOILER]

EXPLAINING

its scarf set breaks up the metagame in half killing the goat flutter mane.It also ohkos the bulky hands with its overheat.specs overheat kils breloom,sylv,appe,flutter mane,cereludge,armourouge,clodsire,abomasnow . scarf kills treads and other counters to specs like bundle if its not scarf.also lorb kills valliant lorb basicaly does everything specs does but better and beat more things just with less power.with added bulk it should tank a talon brave bird and maybe ohko it with hyper beam idk lol.Its defensive ruination sets tend to beat offensive ones but lose to most general counters.things like sudo didnt get into the meta before other rocks get in chi yu plays a hard role in the metagame