Metagame NP ZU Stage 12: Ddu-Du Ddu-du - Dudunsparce Banned #14

[wooper]

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Dudunsparce has been highly-rated in the ZU tier since it joined and has been trending upwards ever since. While it currently sits at A+, some even contend that it is the best mon in the tier, besting Charizard, the metagame's sole S-rank. Dudunsparce boasts one of the highest HP stats in the tier at a solid 125, which is complemented by its passable 85/75 bulk and usable offenses, lending itself to a versatile range of options across moves, stat spreads, and Tera types--all of which require different answers. As a specially defensive wall, its support options are excellent: Stealth Rock for chip, Toxic for passive damage that puts the target on a timer, Dragon Tail for phazing + chip, and Body Slam for respectable damage output with base 100 Attack and high chance at paralyzing a foe thanks to Serene Grace. These all allow Dudunsparce to be a nuisance and force progress against the opposing team, all the while healing itself reliably with Roost.

However, Dudunsparce is notorious for stealing games as a bulky defensive wincon that can be either physically- or specially-oriented, and as stated above, requires seperate counterplay. If physical, Dudunsparce invests in Special Defense packs Roost for longevity, Coil to bolster its attack and physical defense, Body Slam serves as an excellent STAB option to fish for paralysis with Serene Grace, and then can run any of Earthquake, Dragon Tail, or Poison Jab last. Paired with Tera Fairy as an all-around good typing that also resists Fighting-type attacks for its base type and is immune to phazing from opposing Dragon Tail or with Tera Poison to boost Poison Jab, resist Fighting, and be immune to Toxic to increase your staying power, this set snowballs quickly and often.

On the flipside, specially offensive Dudunsparce invests in Physical Defense but similarly packs Roost to keep itself healthy, Calm Mind to boost its Special Attack and Defense, Boomburst as an absolute nuke of a STAB special attack, and Shadow Ball last for Ghost-type enemies. These sets tend to run Tera Ghost to boost Shadow Ball and turn the tables on Fighting-types yet again, but can still run the previously mentioned Fairy or Poison. Like its physical counterpart, this set snowballs quickly and often.

The item slot on the above mentioned sets also lends itself to variety: Heavy-Duty Boots are a great catch-all, Leftovers brings in chip recovery, Grassy Seed on Grassy Terrain teams sees usage for the Calm Mind sets, and I've even ran Covert Cloak to success. As a result of this variation, it can be difficult to properly guess which set your opponent is packing, and even further, which moves, Tera type, and item they have, too. One wrong move can give free turn for Dudunsparce to start boosting and run away with the game.

Despite the success of these options, Dudunsparce is not impenetrable. Status is one way to break through or wear down the Land Snake Pokémon: if Tera has been used up in a match or if are lacking Tera Poison, Dudunsparce becomes susceptible to Toxic chip; Paralysis from Thunder Wave, Stun Spore, and opposing Body Slam (given that Dudunsparce is not running Covert Cloak and have not gone for Tera Ghost) can come in clutch for preventing a crucial heal; Burns from Will-O-Wisp and damaging Fire-type attacks, while an unconventional avenue, racks up passive damage on Dudunsparce and forces the Roost more often. Additionally, Taunt, Encore, Haze, and phazing with the likes of Dragon Tail (given it is not Tera Fairy), Roar, and Whirlwind can prevent Dudunsparce from getting too out of hand and are both common and easy to fit on a wide variety of teams.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in ZU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played ZU before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, Tuthur, or a member of staff.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2920. For reference, the B-value for this suspect will be 4. The suspect test will go on for about 12 days, lasting until Friday, November 29th at 11:59 pm GMT -5 and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message me or anyone else on the ZU council. Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

Avoid posting one-liners or posts that do not contribute to any discussion. They will be deleted.

 

[sinnabyss]

wanna give my thoughts on the longest boi in zu here.

On one hand, Dudundparce is a super neat glue mon for balance teams, with para from bslam and dtail/toxic to stop setup sweepers pretty well, while also compressing sr and having recovery. It blanket checks stuff like the ori forms, zard, moth, etc.

On the other hand, the setup sets are absurdly difficult to deal with. Primarily is because of the variance they have, and how each set has a completely different set of checks. Oh, you switch ur weezing or dipplin in expecting coil? too bad, cm boomburst. Switch in regirock or articuno expecting CM? whoops, all coil. Its even worse considering a single free turn for dudun can let it run away with the game, especially when factoring in its great bulk and tera. (kingdra flashbacks anyone?) even worse is how deep its movepool is and how many other sets u can whip out. Expect to deal with dudun by out offensing it? lol cm agillity jumpscare. use orthworm to scout its set? oops, orth is blown up by specs. Thats not even touching on the absurdity of serene grace ice beam :sob:. Ill personally vote ban just becauss of how unhealthy dudun feels. kyurem at home lmao.

 

[Inferno Monferno]

I'm on the fence atm but I want to provide some DNB arguments considering everyone I've spoken to seems pro ban.

I will mainly be referencing Coil and CM sets, as I don't think the other sets come close, and also don't pretend to be these other sets in a way that can punish the opponent. Agility Dudun wont come out until late game, and can be played around by keeping hazards up, and keeping your scarfer healthy, as at +2 dundun is still slower than +1 base 80s like . Spdef Toxic set is very healthy for the tier, and specs is prediction reliant.

Dundun isn't in the same category as other broken mons, it has checks and counters across all playstyles, and thus we need to assess 2 things to see if its broken:

• Does it invalidate one of the key playstyles (HO, Offense, Balance and Stall)?
• Is it overcentralising the meta?
• Is it uncompetitive?

While Dudun can cook stall, stall barely exists in this meta, and that is more due to how poor the stall tools are rather than dudun. If we were to ban Dudun for beating stall it wouldn't make stall a valid playstyle and thus isn't an argument for banning it.

Balance can struggle into it but it does have counter play. Phasing from mons like , , haze from , and , encore from mons such as and all stop Dudun trying to set up. However most of these mons don't like to take a hit from a +1 Dudun if its on the wrong side, if at all.

+1 0 Atk Dudunsparce Body Slam vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Articuno: 136-162 (35.5 - 42.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(If ur non-haze cuno this is really pressuring, especially if you phase it into something that forces cuno out. Haze comes out this interaction fine, unless paralysed.)

+1 4 SpA Dudunsparce Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Dipplin: 160-189 (43.9 - 51.9%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO
Dudun can tera fairy to avoid phasing here, while also being phased into a mon that forces dipplin out spells the end for it. Also hazard weak so this is a losing interaction. Dipplin is also slower than Dudun, so the coil set can just dragon tail dipplin out, winning that interaction too.

+1 4 SpA Dudunsparce Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Weezing: 265-313 (79.3 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Weezing is straight up goobed by a +1 boomburst. special dudun often runs some speed, typically enough for Weezing.

is faster and thus hazes Dudun before it can get hit, however it does have 4MSS, and can be pressured. The standard smogdex set has Haze as a suggested move, alongside Taunt and Toxic, with no mention of Pain Split. While Haze stops Dudun in its tracks, it doesn't cripple it and it can be switched out and come in again. Dudun can also just phase it out, and as it's weak to hazards, and has no reliable recovery, it can just continue to do so until it's weak enough to be picked off.

There are some other options such as straight up walling Dudun, with mons like , or , however Dudun is able to use Tera, and coverage options to cover come these mons. Dragon tail allows dudun to force out and , not allowing them to Iron Defense up and win the interaction. Common Teras such as fairy and posion gives it a resistance to fighting meaning even at +6 they can't overcome Duduns boosts. Even without the right coverage/tera these mons can be taken advantage of. Both hazard weak, with no recovery, The rest of the team can pressure these mons into a range where Dudun can over come them. on the other hand is extremely passive. There has been the rise of the Trick specs set, which cripples Dudun and shows that the meta is adapting to better check this mon, however this is a suboptimal set, being less passive is traded off for being able to consistently check physical attackers such as .

While there lacks consistent defensive counter play to Dudun, I believe this encourages balance to check Dudun in a more offensive manner. More aggressive play, not giving Dudun openings to set up, pressuring your opponent to bring in Dudun more to check your own offensive threats. The spdef coil set often doubles as a wincon and a check to some of the metas biggest special threats, but that can be used to your advantage. Ensuring rocks are up, and you're getting a special breaker in as often as possible can pressure Dudun. Mons like are often able to pressure their own dedicated checks enough for your opponent to be forced into dudun to check it. At that point, can burn the dudun, crippling it. I do think this is a positive, encouraging balance players to be more aggressive as required. Balance also has other tools such as NP encore , which can viably run covert cloak as it checks , and scarf .

Alongside the fact that there is offensive counter play, defensive counter play while not consistent into every set, once you know the set you can adjust accordingly. Dudun lacks the immediate power to punish you for predicting incorrectly. This means that you require a check to both special and physical Dudun, but it isn't impossible or even hard to fit this on balance teams.

So there does exist more consistent counter play to Dudun on balance team.

Offensive can lose to Dudun but its the playstyle that has the most success against it. As there are no passive mons on offensive builds (even bulkier mons should have ways of punishing Dudun through status, knock or pivoting) Dudun isn't easily able to set up. However it has incredible bulk and can win late game if the right mons on the opposing side are defeated+ with tera it can flip its match up into certain mons like Passimian.

Hyper offensive builds can face problems, especially considering spdef Dudun's 60% chance of paralysing one of your mons any one turn. As Dudun is so bulky, it often is able to take boosted neutral hits and fire back and potentially cripple the opposing mon. As paralysis is also broken, there is then a 1/4 chance that dudun can roost off the damage its taken, allowing it to check the next HO mon. Tera again allows it to flip bad match ups. On paper this sounds bad but relying on that 15% chance interaction to stop HO isn't consistent, and thus HO doesn't really struggle into Dudun.

So Dudun isn't invalidating any key playstyles, but is it overcentralising the meta, or restrictive on teambuilding

I've listed a lot of counter play that all different types of teams can use, and a none of the mons mentioned are complete shitmons. They are all usable and have their place in both a Dudun and non Dudun meta. Your team not having Dudun counterplay can be attributed to it being a poorly built team, rather than that Dudun is broken. Yes it has ways to overcome counterplay, but so does , and no one is arguing that needs to be ban. UMPL statsitics also do not suggest that dudun is running through the tier.

| 6 | Dudunsparce | 24 | 25.53% | 54.17% |

25% usage and 55% win rate suggests a good, but not broken mon. Yes the sample size is small but I think its on the lower end of what can be used to be considered in decisions such as this.

I do think one of the most broken aspects of Dudun is Serene Grace and Body Slams 60% chance to paralyse a Pokemon. Dudun can often come in, fish for paras on it's checks that come in on it. Statistically, paralysis will give a free turn to Dudun once every 4 turns. That can be the difference between Dudun coming out of the interaction winning, fishing for paralysis and roosting off damage until it gets it. The free turns it can get from this allows it to set up even further and clean up a team. It makes a lot of the consistent counter play way less consistent, and it becomes slightly uncompetitive. You can pilot a game well and to beat Dudun, until it paralyses a mon, gets a free turn to heal up any damage and sets up. None of our paralysis immune electric types want to come in on a Body Slam either. Ghosts do form more consistent counter play, and every team should have a random tera ghost if not an actual ghost type, but the uncompetitive nature of this set alongside the fact that other Dudun sets beat those ghosts makes it a nightmare to deal with. Covert Cloak is an item that allows you to overcome this, but on defensive mons this item makes it such that you miss out on passive recovery or hazards immunity, and is subpar in majority of other interactions. On more offensive mons like and NP this is a valid item allowing them to overcome secondary effects from passive mons fishing for status, but again missing out on Boots/Lum Berry and Leftovers is again suboptimal.

TLDR; Dudun is super strong but has semi-consistent counter play and encourages better play to overcome it, leaning towards DNB, but it's close for me.

 

[Tuthur]

Hi, to everyone who's been laddering for the ZU suspect test. We are moving to the /linksmogon way that other suspect tests are using. More info in OP. If you already started laddering with ZUDUDUN account, you can still ladder and DM me with your reqs. If not, please use the new method, thank you.

 

[estra]

Opinion on Dudunsparce

CLICK ME

Dudunsparce has found itself among the best Pokémon in SV ZU since the later days of ZUPL, during which it was still being "discovered". But It truly began to stand out with the start of UMPL and during ZU Swiss, where it has continued to excel. Naturally, there is a consensus that this Pokémon's presence in the tier is questionable, considering it is currently being suspect-tested. I am here to share my opinion on it: Is it really broken? Does its presence in the tier do any good? Is it counterable at all? These are some of the questions I will attempt to answer here.

Is it broken?
Short answer: Yes!
In theory, if I did not play ZU actively, I wouldn't really think this Pokémon is the menace it is. I believe "unpunishable" to be the defining word for it. There are just too many sets. Of course, having many sets doesn't make something broken, but the story is different when most of them are just too good and can overcome their checks slowly during the battle, eventually winning with Terastallization. "Oh, but isn't it a Tera Hog then?" The answer is: it depends! Usually, Dudunsparce will win by Terastalizing while boosting with setup moves, putting it in a position to win unless stopped somehow (phazed, haze, trick, encore, taunt, etc.). With some of these "stopping measures" being more efficient than others, teams are usually forced to rely on the same Pokémon to deal with it, generating some tendencies that are already being highly exploited by Dudunsparce squads. More problems reside in the fact that most checks for a certain Dudunsparce set cannot check another one. For example, while Rhydon can usually check Coil sets, it usually gets stomped by Calm Mind ones. Another issue is that it's not really identifiable by preview which set the opponent is running. Of course, guesses can work, and most of the time they will, since it's not especially hard to determine which set synergizes better with the given team, but that can go wrong, and guessing wrong between Special / Physical and proccing Rattled on it "by accident" can get you in big trouble, for example. Everything above just implies way too much pressure in the builder, therefore making it unhealthy for the tier.

Broken Spotlight: Coil!
Here, I'm going to talk specifically about Coil sets. These are also known as spreaders of Thunder Wave that can paralyze Ground-types, do damage, and set up to win the game. Even the aforementioned Rhydon, which is usually considered a check for the standard Coil set, can find itself being overwhelmed by it. "Oh, but then Rhydon isn't a proper check" you might say. This just implies that there is no real check! Rhydon has over 400 base Defense with some investment (and evio), respectable HP, access to phazing in Roar, and powerful STABs. While it resists Dudunsparce's most spammable move, Body Slam, it can still get paralyzed by it. Thus, Rhydon can still lose to Dudunsparce, since after it gets paralyzed, Dudunsparce finds room to Coil and Roost to recover HP in front of it, being almost risk-free since a single crit can't KO it. This is what I'm saying about it being "unpunishable," since even its checks (who are all ineffective unless you insta-Tera, which isn't really worth it) can be punished by it, either by getting paralyzed or just by getting chipped down, which can be tricky, since most of them do not have reliable recovery at all, and yall know where I want to get with this.

Does its presence in the tier do any good?
Short answer: No.
I don't think Dudunsparce is justifiable to keep in the tier by any means. I believe my previous points make it clear that I am pro-ban. But to complement that: it's not a healthy presence at all! There is no situation where it represents something like a "necessary evil" to stop some kind of archetype that would dominate everything otherwise, or to counter any specific Pokémon. It is, itself purely oppressive and overcentralizing, requiring multiple checks for its various sets.

Other general stuff
I personally believe that getting Dudunsparce out will be important for ZU's development because we don't seem to be getting any new strong drops any soon that would maybe justify voting DNB for this reason (even tho I'm not a fan of this "oh wait something will drop" thinking at all, remember when we thought Kilowattrel would drop and thus Electrode-H stayed in the tier for over 3 months LMAO. I hope I have convinced you if you weren't thinking it is broken.

Some replays of myself + other ppl where dunny did dunny things

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-2229501562-ni297o7qxjeu1fzwd6ukiv7iea4y14mpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9zu-805669
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9zu-806012

Just a reminder that everything above is solely my opinion! Please do also share your thoughts @everyone if you think they're valid to an extent!






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[Tizio]

Does its presence in the tier do any good?
Short answer: No.​

That's the real issue here imo, DuDun may not be crazy broken and there are ways to play around it just like Monferno said, but does his presence really benefit the tier? A Pokémon that can fit such a wide variety of roles shouldn't be among the premier tier choices in almost every single one of them, i think a ban would create some room for other options to be explored without fear of the tanky-huge movepool-recovery provided snake outperforming them.
And speaking of snakes...

Would evio Dunsparce be able to fit in the shoes of his big brother? We're talking about the defensive sets of course, on paper he should do well enough with similar bulk and moves, but there is a big letdown which is the lack of dragon tail and no other phaze to make up for it, toxic would now be the best answer to setuppers but of course that's not as reliable, especially now that you have an harder time breaking subs(10 less base atk than dudun).

 

[TomatoZause]

I find Dudunsparce to be very good, but I believe it is by no means broken whatsoever. I found this suspect very surprising as Dudunsparce seemed just alright while being able to take advantage of unprepared teams. The utility sets are quite poor in my opinion and not broken obviously, which leaves Coil and Calm Mind. Calm Mind sets are okay but they flail into hazers like Articuno or Muk, pokemon with a type advantage like Sableye and Spritiomb and Dudun being invested into PhysDef means it falls victims to strong special attacks like Specs Arboliva Leaf Storm and Shaymin Seed Flare. Calm Mind sets are still okay despite their struggle to make progress as Boomburst's absurd base power makes it much more difficult to counter then coil sets, which get owned by with literally every setup deterrent (LOL).

Coil sets are very good due to Serene Grace which allows them to consistently make progress. Furthermore, Dudunsparce is very fat especially with Special Defensive investment which lets stay alive for a very long time. This lets it act as a good late game cleaner who can (potentially) sweep in the late game with the correct tera or just against bad teams. However, Coil sets need very good support, since it loses to every setup deterrent barring Dipplin Dragon Tail (Sableye Encore, Toxic pre-tera, Haze from Weezing and Articuno, Mesprit Encore, Mesprit Trick, and Rotom Trick, Taunt Qwilfishes, just to name a few). You also lose to Wisp, which makes Sableye, Weezing and Spritiomb even worse matchups. Dudunsparce is a decent progress maker that can act as a wincon under ideal conditions, but is by no means broken.

Does its presence in the tier do any good?
Short answer: No.
I don't think Dudunsparce is justifiable to keep in the tier by any means. I believe my previous points make it clear that I am pro-ban. But to complement that: it's not a healthy presence at all! There is no situation where it represents something like a "necessary evil" to stop some kind of archetype that would dominate everything otherwise, or to counter any specific Pokémon. It is, itself purely oppressive and overcentralizing, requiring multiple checks for its various sets.

That's the real issue here imo, DuDun may not be crazy broken and there are ways to play around it just like Monferno said, but does his presence really benefit the tier? A Pokémon that can fit such a wide variety of roles shouldn't be among the premier tier choices in almost every single one of them, i think a ban would create some room for other options to be explored without fear of the tanky-huge movepool-recovery provided snake outperforming them.

I personally don't think Utility or Calm Mind are premier tier choices, but even if you do this is a very poor reason to vote ban. This does not make Dudunsparce broken, this does not make Dudunsparce unhealthy, nor does it make Dudunsparce uncompetitive. Furthermore, I believe Coil's progress making abilities offer plenty to the tier and the utility sets are decent for being a rocker with phasing/toxic that is beefy and also opens up your ground type to do something else, (ie Specs Palossand).

Would evio Dunsparce be able to fit in the shoes of his big brother? We're talking about the defensive sets of course, on paper he should do well enough with similar bulk and moves

No, Dunsparce was unviable for quite a bit before Dudunsparce dropped. The reliance on Eviolite makes you very prone to hazards and Knock Off.

Switch in regirock or articuno expecting CM? whoops, all coil. Its even worse considering a single free turn for dudun can let it run away with the game, especially when factoring in its great bulk and tera. (kingdra flashbacks anyone?) even worse is how deep its movepool is and how many other sets u can whip out. Expect to deal with dudun by out offensing it? lol cm agillity jumpscare. use orthworm to scout its set? oops, orth is blown up by specs. Thats not even touching on the absurdity of serene grace ice beam :sob:. Ill personally vote ban just becauss of how unhealthy dudun feels.

Tera Fairy Regirock still beats Coil even if the Dudunsparce user teras, Articuno doesn't like Coil but it still wins 1v1. I don't believe Kingdra was broken for what it's worth and especially with Whims it should be freed. CM Agility and Specs are very niche sets because they are either worse strapped for slots or locking yourself in for no reason.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9zu-2229501562-ni297o7qxjeu1fzwd6ukiv7iea4y14mpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9zu-805669
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9zu-806012

These replays are weak examples. In the first replay, Dudunsparce won a game that Scarf Qwilfish could've already swept by getting a bit lucky. Furthermore, this was one of the best matchups Dudunsparce can get, especially without have to worry about crit since Brute Bonnet was crunchless. In the second replay, FlamPoke expended his tera on t2 only to guess the Dudunsparce set incorrectly, leaving him hopeless. This loss was purely a very premature tera in addition to a misread of Dudnsparce's set getting punished. In the third game, Dudunsparce gets quite lucky, dodging several Poison Jab Poisons from Rhydon (unless Dudunsparce was Cloak?). yo cho also lost the 50/50 eruption/fire blast at the end, not that it mattered though since the Dudunsparce was feeling especially lucky and decided to Poison with its Poison Jab (Rhydon take notes). Additionally, yo cho couldve gone into his Decidueye to try and draw out the tera.

"Oh, but then Rhydon isn't a proper check" you might say. This just implies that there is no real check! Rhydon has over 400 base Defense with some investment (and evio), respectable HP, access to phazing in Roar, and powerful STABs. While it resists Dudunsparce's most spammable move, Body Slam, it can still get paralyzed by it. Thus, Rhydon can still lose to Dudunsparce, since after it gets paralyzed, Dudunsparce finds room to Coil and Roost to recover HP in front of it, being almost risk-free since a single crit can't KO it.

Rhydon is, by definition, a check. This "anything can win if it gets lucky enough" logic is also very flawed. Rhydon is also not the only check, most pokemon with setup deterrents are checks as well as mentioned earlier. Not to mention, Regirock was also completely forgotten in your post, which is another check to Dudunsparce, Tera Fairy Regirock works fine if you're worried about Dudunsparce Terastalizing.

everything above just implies way too much pressure in the builder, therefore making it unhealthy for the tier.

I don't think fitting setup deterrents / a normal resist or maybe a spare tera fairy is very unhealthy. Especially when you consider what Dudunsparce offers to the tier as I mentioned earlier.

For example, while Rhydon can usually check Coil sets, it usually gets stomped by Calm Mind ones.

+2 252+ Atk Rhydon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dudunsparce: 298-352 (65.6 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Dudunsparce Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 123-145 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Earth Power CM Dudun is bad because you get walled by Orthworm. Roar Rhydon isn't real but even then you can just take 40 and Roar it (don't run Roar though pls).

edit: tuthur was cloak dudun but the rest of the statement still stands

 

[Welcome to mars]

View attachment 690089
Would evio Dunsparce be able to fit in the shoes of his big brother? We're talking about the defensive sets of course, on paper he should do well enough with similar bulk and moves, but there is a big letdown which is the lack of dragon tail and no other phaze to make up for it, toxic would now be the best answer to setuppers but of course that's not as reliable, especially now that you have an harder time breaking subs(10 less base atk than dudun).

I remember late 2023 ZU, where dunsparce was putting in work and spidops was still viable, it was truly a peak metagame

But without dragon tail, dunsparce simply can’t do the miracles his brother can.

kyurem at home lmao.

This is an wild take, dudunsparce cannot be compared kyurem when it gets outsped by most walls

 

[Tuthur]

Good afternoon ZU,

After finally getting reqs using Joshua's RMT and a recreation of yocho's Specs Arboliva team, as well as reaching ZU Swiss semi, I've made my mind on voting to Do not ban Dudunsparce. It's a very good Pokémon, but I do believe there is enough options on every playstyle to threaten it. A lot of Dudunsparce's traits are being overstated by the pro-ban side, imo. First, guessing Dudunsparce set wrong is not that common as getting any hit on it (which often happens as Dudunsparce tries to find setup opportunities), and second, is it really that bad? In my experience Dudunsparce is so initally weak, that guessing the set wrong is not that bad, as you can easily rectify by going for the correct answer, regardless of playstyle. Dudunsparce is also not that bulky, and any sweeper hitting it on the right side should be able to break it. I do also see Dudunsparce's ability to spread paralysis and phaze as an healthy element of the metagame; we lack proactive defensive Pokemon and Dudunsparce happens to be that. I don't understand what people find inherently problematic with Dudunsparce, and as such, I'll keep the statu quo.

 

[Inferno Monferno]

Having got suspect reqs and thinking more, I've decided to vote Ban. I still think it's on the very borderline of being broken, and could swing either way but the coil set having a 60% chance of paralysing you is just stupid. Paralysis is actually a stupid status and we should ban all moves with a >50% chance of paralysing your opponent but I know that's never happening so instead I'm voting to get rid of this guy. The team I used to get reqs is below, was solid in facing the random stuff the ZU ladder will throw at you.

https://pokepast.es/faedccaf08e06c2c

 

[DD Joe]

Having laddered quite extensively this week testing teams and various sets of Dudu, I have come to the conclusion that the meta game would probably end up in a healthier state without it.

It has several very potent and strong sets and playing against it is, for lack of a better word, unpleasant.

For me the top sets are:

Calm Mind Roost with Tera Ghost and S Ball
Throat Spray Agility
Coil, Bs, Dragon Tail, Roost

Dudunsparce requires special attention and can spiral out of control abnormally quickly compared to other mons in the tier. Its natural bulk gives it great durability and despite its slow speed tier, roost makes up for this weakness allowing it crucial set up turns.

I don't really think it has too many 'hard counters'. Charizard deals with it quite well (as it does with the rest of the tier too) and perhaps any trick mon. However, the latter may suffer a +1 boomburst/shadow ball whilst tricking. I suppose encore/prankster users can also give it some difficulty but even still, with good team building, these weaknesses seem very negligible.

It works great on HO, Balance and Stall. Thus, it is extremely flexible and unpredictable.

One weakness, however, is how much of a Tera Hog it is. Normal isn't a great typing defensively or offensively, meaning tera will generally be used by Dudun. This can be psychologically used against a player storing one in the back.

I think the tier would benefit from its removal and we would end up with more team variety as a result of its ban.

Charizard Suspect to follow please! :)

 

[yo cho]

I will be voting ban.

Dudunsparce has been a prevalent meta threat for a very long time, and there is a plethora of good sets that it can use, but I think there is a set that quite obviously stands above all the others and is extremely bad for the metagame, that being Physically Defensive CM. In the next few paragraphs I will be explaining why CM Dudunsparce counterplay is insufficient and also drawing parallels to coil, to show why CM is so broken.

Lack of toxic users
Unlike coil, CM Dudunsparce does not care about burn and toxic in ZU is very scarce. Qwilfish-Hisui, being a decent spdef wall with toxic, has become significantly less popular recently, mostly for the reason that Qwilfish has been on the rise, and even if you do have toxic Qwilfish-Hisui on your team, it's prone to being worn down since it has no recovery and is weak to hazards. Qwilfish and Weezing are going to get blown up by boomburst and even if they do manage to toxic, dudunsparce will still leave huge dents in your team. The only thing that can reasonably come in and toxic dudunsparce is... dudunsparce itself.

The fall of Articuno
There's been a huge drop off in usage of Articuno in the recent months with the meta shifting in a significantly more offensive direction, and CM Dudunsparce not having to deal with it's most consistent check is a big part of why it's thriving.

Tera Ghost + Rattled is ridiculous
Coil Dudunsparce, both before and after teraing, is able to get threatened out by a decent number of strong special attackers such as Magneton, Clawitzer, Arboliva despite running SPdef investment. The same is not true for CM Dudunsparce and physical attackers. Once it tera's into ghost and can't be hit by Body Press or Close Combat anymore, it's basically not dying to anything. Physical Dark and Ghost moves in ZU are very bad, the only decent users of STAB dark moves being Sneasel and Brute Bonnet, both being sort of niche, and Sneasel not even having that much power. There's also a huge lack of generally powerful neutral hitting physical moves, the only one that comes to mind being Floatzel's banded Wave Crash. Worst of all, you get punished for trying to chip it down with, for example, mesprit's knock off by giving it a free speed boost.

Other counterplay is cope
Yes, encore and trick exist, but they're not something you can reasonably put on every team. A lot of prominent choice item users, such as Passimian and Floatzel don't have access to trick. Encore whimsicott is, in my opinion, a gimmick set and isn't good. Switcheroo from whimsicott is telegraphed. Support Mesprit sets have better things to go than Encore, it's only really good on CM/NP and even then Mesprit doesn't have recovery so it could get caught by a Boomburst while trying to switch in. There might be something I'm forgetting, but none of the "counterplay" that comes to mind feels real.

In conclusion, CM Dudunsparce is broken and having to fit the aforementioned counterplay into every team so you don't simply autolose to it is incredibly restricting.

Of course, other Dudunsparce sets such as coil dragon tail and toxic stealth rock are very good, but I think if CM Dudunsparce didn't exist, it would be a healthy part of the meta and I wouldn't want it banned. That's why I wanted to primarily talk about this set.

 

[Tuthur]

Please vote here. Voting will close in 72 hours.

sufys
yo cho
fish anemometer
sinnabyss
DD Joe
Creeperman129
DNNP
OranBerryBlissey10
colorednaem
delemon
Inferno Monferno
diegoyuhhi
sleid
Tizio
Monai
estra
5Dots
Zpice

 

[Isaiah]

Not everyone has voted yet, but the result won't change. (voting will stay open until the deadline)

Dudunsparce is now banned from ZU! Tagging dhelmise and Marty for implementation.

Thank you to all participants. If you have 10 tiering votes across multiple tiers and qualify for the Tiering Contributor badge as a result, you may PM me or another Tier Leader with the links to all of your votes.