Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 17 - Dancing in the Moonlight

[Lily]

Hello everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to test Roaring Moon!

Perhaps one of the most divisive Pokemon in the history of SV OU, seeing a test for Roaring Moon should not be a huge surprise to anybody. Much like Gliscor and Kyurem before it, Roaring Moon has been suspect tested before way back in the Teal Mask metagame, and it did not survive its fate. Back then, it was pretty simple - early meta Roaring Moon often ignored its STAB entirely and instead went for the great coverage of Acrobatics + Earthquake, which, while still very strong, was easier handled through raw bulk since the non-STAB moves weren't quite as strong. Once it got access to Knock Off, that changed significantly, and it quickly began shredding just about everything before getting itself nuked from the tier. Nowadays, things are a bit different--there are more defensive Pokemon around, and it's not as free for Roaring Moon to turn into a Flying-type and decimate the entire tier. So what's changed for Roaring Moon in recent times to warrant a suspect test?

Simply put, innovation has led to a lot of Roaring Moon sweeps, and we do mean a lot. Most famously, the recent Tera Fairy Roaring Moon has been flattening soft checks like Great Tusk and Ting-Lu with Tera Blast, making use of the typing's incredible offensive prowess that way... or just forgoing Tera Blast entirely and instead using its newfound wonderful defensive typing to completely turn the tables on the likes of Zamazenta, Iron Valiant, and Great Tusk that would normally be able to smack it hard with a Close Combat. Roaring Moon also has other options, such as Tera Ground which allows it unleash mounstrous +1 Earthquakes that cleave through bulky stopgaps like Clefable, Tera Flying sets that dismantle Great Tusk, Tera Ghost to take out Corviknight, or Tera Water to blast through Landorus-Therian and every other Ground-type check and also sit in front of Gholdengo, or... you get the picture. The Tera roulette that Roaring Moon's innovation has led to is proving difficult to combat in high level play, especially now that it's running less Speed and more bulk; turns out you don't need to invest that much when you can just Dragon Dance again and again in front of a Great Tusk whose Headlong Rush now does 40% instead of 70%.

It's not like Roaring Moon can just freely farm everything though. The rise of Pecharunt has not been ideal for it; both Malignant Chain and Foul Play cause Roaring Moon issues depending on whether or not it has committed to Tera already, and the bulk of the peach can be further supplemented by its own Tera to turn the tables in that matchup. Priority from Dragonite and Kingambit is as common as ever, and it's joined by Weavile now too, which has risen up in part due to Roaring Moon's influence - its base typing and two of the common Tera types, Ground and Flying, are all weak to Ice Shard. It also has a fairly undesirable case of 4MSS; it would love to be able to run all of Dragon Dance, Knock Off, Earthquake, Acrobatics, Tera Blast, Brick Break, Roost, and Taunt, but it has to pick and choose what it loses to as a result. Running slower sets leads to more and more speed control options being able to check it; +1 Roaring Moon can now be outsped by the likes of Booster Energy Iron Valiant, Protosynthesis Walking Wake, Booster Energy Iron Moth, and Tera Ogerpon-Teal, though none of these choices are very reliable since you don't know how fast the opposing Roaring Moon is. It can also result in some backfiring; we've seen faster Tinkatons fail their Encores one too many times...

Roaring Moon is very clearly a Pokemon that is polarising. Its immense breaking and sweeping potential is only truly limited by the moves it can fit in its set and the creativity of the player wielding it. So, while its limitations could very well be enough to keep its place in SV OU, we've decided it's for the best that we put Roaring Moon on the chopping block and give it the suspect test it deserves.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this retest are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in OU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W-L does not count for this -- the account you use must never have played OU before the test, full stop.)
  • You can use /rank to check if your alt is allowed to get requirements. Whenever in doubt, type /rank and it will tell confirm if you are eligible or not
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact Finchinator and/or Ruft
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM Finchinator or Ruft!

The requirement to vote in this suspect retest is a ELO of 1750 and GXE of 80! This was done after discussion in this thread. The deadline for getting requirements will be Sunday, March 30th at 11 PM GMT-5. Good luck to all!

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Roaring Moon is banworthy or not;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Roaring Moon vs other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, Finchinator and Ruft, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Forum Leaders. I am tagging dhelmise and Marty to let them know about this, too.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who rightfully achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you.

Check your reqs here!

 

[Lily]

This thread will be locked for the first 24 hours so that you can all collect your thoughts before posting.

Have a great day, seeya tomorrow!

 

[Finchinator]

Leading up to this suspect test, the OU council voted on options including suspecting Roaring Moon, suspecting Gliscor, prioritizing a community survey, and doing nothing yet.

The vote showed majority favoring a Roaring Moon suspect over Gliscor and the vast majority favoring a suspect rather than a survey or no action. You can see the results below.

Finchinator: Gliscor suspect > Roaring Moon suspect > Survey > Nothing
Ruft: Gliscor suspect > Roaring Moon suspect > Survey > Nothing
Star: Roaring Moon suspect > Gliscor suspect > Survey > Nothing
Lily: Roaring Moon suspect > Gliscor suspect > Survey > Nothing
ima: Roaring Moon suspect > Gliscor suspect > Survey > Nothing
xavgb: Roaring Moon suspect > Gliscor suspect > Survey > Nothing
TPP: Roaring Moon suspect and Gliscor suspect tied > Survey > Nothing
ausma: Survey > Roaring Moon suspect > Gliscor suspect > Nothing

Thanks a ton to Lily for getting up the suspect while I was occupied by an IRL matter! PM me if you have any questions as always.

 

[ausma]

The thread is now unlocked; please be sure to read the OP and read the forum rules before posting. Enjoy!

 

[Welcome to mars]

I could hypothetically see a ban for roaring moon benefiting the metagame, its quite unpredictable with its acrobatics set that can punch massive holes with one turn of setup and its new tera fairy set which reliably gets multiple dragon dances, of course these are not the only viable sets but rather the most prevalent as band roaring moon has seen some success

But eitherway it does put genuine restriction on teambuilding (which is already restricted enough given the lack of hazard management this hen) and severely hinders certain playstyles. even if teams adapt to it they aren’t entirely safe from it since tera gives lots of opportunities even in the face of actual preparation.

 

[Rewer]

Got my reqs, I believe roaring moon should not be banned. It has really bad 4mss (dd + knock + 2 of acro eq terablast taunt roost and other stuff like brick break lol) along with its tera type which is also part of its moveset. It is weak to hazards and every status as well and especially on offense teams, where you will pretty much always find this mon, hazards are a big factor for whether or not it will sweep. It's also outsped by dragapult, darkrai and zamazenta and unfortunate speed ties with cinderace. It also gets no priority moves so it's frequently getting revenge killed by opposing priority like sucker and thunderclap (especially post tera).

Of course, you still can’t ignore how strong it is offensively, it easily gets a good amount of chances to get its dd off and destroy. I think there are a few select games where the roaring moon set has an amazing "botted" matchup AND the person playing against the roaring moon played correctly. But there’s a lot for it to handle right now, from its 4mss, weakness to status and hazards, vulnerability to revenge killing, it just isn't reliably sweeping teams or getting 2-3 kills per game like that, and a lot of the crazier sets are just pretty situational.

I want to emphasize that dark + dragon is already a good defensive typing for its base form, and while every tera it uses has defensive advantages, it has big drawbacks, mainly giving up the resists that the base typing offers and no longer resisting thunderclap and sucker punch. I also think the current trend of defensive tera fairy is just a regular meta advancement, and people have been underprepared for it from using 2024 teams. Really, people just need to make better teams against that set or play around it better, there's plenty of counterplay.

I think any “it forces tera for tera” arguments are not good. Its not like its teraing EVERY game, yeah roaring moon is one of the best tera users in this tier alongside kyurem, gliscor, and kingambit, but due to all these weaknesses, there are a lot of times where it just isn’t in the right position to waste your tera with moon.

I think this mon is an overall plus for the tier, not by much, but still I don’t think it is unhealthy, overpowered, or banworthy. It is a strong breaker that can help break because of its sheer power, forces knock offs on defensive mons, lets its teammates sweep after, or it can just sweep if you setup a good position for it to sweep, which I think are fair strengths.

There are valid checks and counterplay for it on both offense and fat. I think the big broken to boot right now is kyurem but that's a story for another day (or post).

 

[Moyashi]

I also think the current trend of defensive tera fairy is just a regular meta advancement, and people have been underprepared for it from using 2024 teams. Really, people just need to make better teams against that set or play around it better, there's plenty of counterplay.

Assuming I have enough time I’ll be getting reqs for this but I wanted to pop in and just say that this is a type of take that’s really annoying, and unconstructive. This isn’t the first comment to insinuate that there’s plenty of counter play but then oddly not mention a single actual specific Mon. Saying “hazards” and “priority” are nothing statements in the grand scheme of things because they don’t actually address the new developments this Mon has had. You just assume multiple hazards are always gonna be up in every instance? You cannot really count on that especially as good Moon teams are going to account for this.

Priority meanwhile is proving less reliable when bulky sets just don’t care most of the time. Unboosted Dragonite Eapeed is doing nothing to stop a boosted Roaring Moon, while you basically need to preserve your Raging Bolt’s booster energy to ensure it even can challenge bulky moon (assuming it’s not Tera ground variants). Kingambit might help vs Moon that aren’t packing dark resistant Teras but if it’s Fairy, well… and Rilla has basically ceased to exist so Grassy Glide is irrelevant. And status? You’re limited to Zapdos and Moltres, and you had better hope you land the status or the abilities go off, and you’re still trading them just to do this and you better hope you don’t need them for anything else on Moon’s team.

My biggest problem with this comment however is the attitude of “well people are just not prepared for it, they’re using outdated teams, use better teams” which is bordering on cocky? You really gonna look at the players in SPL and say their builds are 2024? We have seen stuff like Latios getting used here and there. Weavile is resurging. Pecharunt is as fresh a development as it gets and it’s very common.

Besides that complaints on this Mon aren’t exactly new. If you’ve followed any high level play or just hung around, it’s been seeing them for a while. People aren’t exactly loading up Moon weak teams. People are preparing for it, but still getting trolled because it’s a bullshit Mon that picks what it wants to beat and you’re at the mercy of what set it’s running because you can’t reasonably expect to run something for all its Tera variants and move choices. There isn’t exactly a lot of overlapping counter play to this Mon’s different sets. One reason (among many because it is a great Mon atm) that Corv is seeing more usage is because it’s one of the few mons that can check a fair amount of Moon sets. But even Corv is vulnerable to options like Taunt or Tera Ghost.

 

[RainebowValiant]

Got reqs for the first time with an alt name I'm super happy with (Lovers at Twilight) so we chill

Aight so the issue here isn't Moon. Tera Blast is the issue, ban Tera Blast. Idk what I'm voting yet but it WILL be the option that makes Tera Blast more likely to go. The Tera Flying acro sets are fine, the Tera ground sets are fine, the fatter Tera Ghost sets are fine, but the Tera Fairy Roost/Taunt sets are broken.

Ban Tera Blast, Moon is fine without it, Volcarona is fine without it, Kyurem is fine without it. It's the issue.

 

[Finchinator]

Getting tired of people just claiming Tera Blast Fairy is the one and only issue. It’s not the primary one and posts assuming it to be miss the biggest selling point behind Moon’s rise back to prominence.

Bulky Roost variants give potential for numerous set-up opportunities. I believe it was Srn who (correctly) stated that the chance for Roaring Moon to grab 2 or more Dragon Dances is what really pushes it to a higher point than ever before. Roost and investment in bulk do this. Taunt on occasion can, too, but that’s less mainstream than it once was.

Tera Blast and 3A in general are great and absolutely contributed to Roaring Moon’s rise — being able to catch a Great Tusk or Zamazenta can go a long way for sure, but these sets (and every other) now play off of the snowballing potential of the newer, bulkier variants that have done the heavy lifting here. But to try and hijack a thread about a suspect that clearly had more support to shift the topic is silly.

Aight so the issue here isn't Moon. Tera Blast is the issue, ban Tera Blast. Idk what I'm voting yet but it WILL be the option that makes Tera Blast more likely to go

Logic like this in particular is just downright bad. Like your post concedes that Roaring Moon is a problem in the current metagame and does nothing to distance from that, but you want to strategically vote on it for the sake of enabling a future suspect on something that just lacks the support? What are we even doing here?

Tiering is not a “pick your adventure” book you cycle through on the bus to high school. It’s community sourced progression with regular democratic checkpoints.

 

[RainebowValiant]

Getting tired of people just claiming Tera Blast Fairy is the one and only issue. It’s not the primary one and posts assuming it to be miss the biggest selling point behind Moon’s rise back to prominence.

Bulky Roost variants give potential for numerous set-up opportunities. I believe it was Srn who (correctly) stated that the chance for Roaring Moon to grab 2 or more Dragon Dances is what really pushes it to a higher point than ever before. Roost and investment in bulk do this. Taunt on occasion can, too, but that’s less mainstream than it once was.

Tera Blast and 3A in general are great and absolutely contributed to Roaring Moon’s rise — being able to catch a Great Tusk or Zamazenta can go a long way for sure, but these sets (and every other) now play off of the snowballing potential of the newer, bulkier variants that have done the heavy lifting here. But to try and hijack a thread about a suspect that clearly had more support to shift the topic is silly.

Logic like this in particular is just downright bad. Like your post concedes that Roaring Moon is a problem in the current metagame and does nothing to distance from that, but you want to strategically vote on it for the sake of enabling a future suspect on something that just lacks the support? What are we even doing here?

Tiering is not a “pick your adventure” book you cycle through on the bus to high school. It’s community sourced progression with regular democratic checkpoints.

Realistically the metagame is in my opinion fine as is so like whatever I'll just do whatever is possible to make the small improvements I think would be helpful to improve the already good meta.

On ladder, at least, bulky Moon has been fine in my experiences. It's easily punished by offense because it often can't outspeed booster Pokemon at +1 and can't often abuse its physical bulk enough to actually sweep teams. The issue is when Tera Blast Fairy comes around which makes you able to OHKO zamazenta (and really harms balance/BO staples like ting-lu and dnite as well) and tusk and etc without making you vulnerable to thunderclap and sucker punch, which is problematic into offense.

Idk, Moon is fine for me. Stall will survive, we have Flame Body up the ass and Gweezing/Dozo everywhere. Balance will survive without the tblast versions, zama and lu and dnite can do that. Offense will survive, we have Balloon gambit, Landorus-T, our own Moon, dnite, etc.

It's just Tera Blast for me. Idk

P.S. they're called choose your own adventure books.

 

[Finchinator]

Tera Fairy Roost/Taunt sets are broken.

Idk, Moon is fine for me.

It’s giving “I just want my specific agenda” and “I just want stall to remain the same” rather than actually coherent thought. Don’t think you flip flopped how you see the tier in 15 minutes.

The point I am trying to make is — and the rules make — is that this isn’t a thread to discuss Tera Blast or other future suspects. It’s a thread to discuss if Roaring Moon is broken or not. You made one post indicating yes and then another indicating no when it was made clear that the factor you dislike was implicated. That is at best silly and at worth bad faith arguing.

Tera Blast goes beyond just the Pokemon in the tier when looking at bans and this suspect doesn’t impact its prospects much at all. The reason why other things have been suspected over it is that they all have far more support, and that’ll continue unless the support changes. This shouldn’t completely derail the tier’s progression and tiering discussions.

 

[RainebowValiant]

It’s giving “I just want my specific agenda” and “I just want stall to remain the same” rather than actually coherent thought. Don’t think you flip flopped how you see the tier in 15 minutes.

The point I am trying to make is — and the rules make — is that this isn’t a thread to discuss Tera Blast or other future suspects. It’s a thread to discuss if Roaring Moon is broken or not. You made one post indicating yes and then another indicating no when it was made clear that the factor you dislike was implicated. That is at best silly and at worth bad faith arguing.

Tera Blast goes beyond just the Pokemon in the tier when looking at bans and this suspect doesn’t impact its prospects much at all. The reason why other things have been suspected over it is that they all have far more support, and that’ll continue unless the support changes. This shouldn’t completely derail the tier’s progression and tiering discussions.

I think Moon is fine without tblast is what I meant the 2nd time. If you think I care about stall more than anything else, check what I load on ladder. I've used Moon MORE than enough to have a detailed opinion on it, and I think the standard sets are all fine except the one that allows you to push past dnite lu zama while also maintaining a sucker resistance and the best typing in the game.

My opinions didn't change between the posts, I'm just bad at wording shit. I've always thought Moon without tblast was fine and Moon with tblast was broken. I'm not the only one, either.

 

[Ishtar0607]

I think Moon is fine without tblast is what I meant the 2nd time. If you think I care about stall more than anything else, check what I load on ladder. I've used Moon MORE than enough to have a detailed opinion on it, and I think the standard sets are all fine except the one that allows you to push past dnite lu zama while also maintaining a sucker resistance and the best typing in the game.

My opinions didn't change between the posts, I'm just bad at wording shit. I've always thought Moon without tblast was fine and Moon with tblast was broken. I'm not the only one, either.

congrats on getting reqs for the first time!

I would like to reaffirm that there is no guarantee that tera blast will get suspected and even in the most recent survey, support for a ban was relatively middling. Please do not vote on Roaring Moon under the assumption that Tera blast will get suspected and banned.

If you think that Roaring Moon is broken in the current meta and tera blast pushes it over the edge, then wouldn't it be more sensible to ban Roaring Moon whilst Tera Blast is legal and unban it if/when tera blast ever gets banned? That way, you wouldn't have to deal with a broken mon in the hopes that it becomes balanced one day.

 

[RainebowValiant]

congrats on getting reqs for the first time!

I would like to reaffirm that there is no guarantee that tera blast will get suspected and even in the most recent survey, support for a ban was relatively middling. Please do not vote on Roaring Moon under the assumption that Tera blast will get suspected and banned.

If you think that Roaring Moon is broken in the current meta and tera blast pushes it over the edge, then wouldn't it be more sensible to ban Roaring Moon whilst Tera Blast is legal and unban it if/when tera blast ever gets banned? That way, you wouldn't have to deal with a broken mon in the hopes that it becomes balanced one day.

Tbh, tblast included, I think Roaring Moon is broken in the current meta. If I was held at gunpoint, I'd vote ban.

Unfortunately I'm a selfish fuck and will probably vote DNB probably because I think offense in this tier is shit and we need more offense. Sorry everybody who doesn't like Moon.

But yeah I do think it is broken, the fat sets (fat tblast sets included) can get so many Dragon Dances due to their immense bulk which makes it way more problematic than it was before these sets became popular

 

[Insolence]

The Tera Blast Fairy set is the only remotely problematic Moon set. The bulky variants are certainly threatening, but they sacrifice speed for the ability to set up in certain matchups. Not outspeeding booster mons at +1 is a major issue for it, and while its added bulk is certainly not irrelevant, its lackluster defenses (50 less defense than Gouge, another controversial DD sweeper) mean that it is much easier to keep attacking into it to prevent it from getting free setup. Tera Flying means you no longer resist Thunderclap or Sucker Punch, and its usage has been dropping on high ladder. If you look at the 1825 moveset stats for last month, its usage has steadily dropped and Fairy has even overtaken it in terms of popularity, with Ground being poised to do so as well.

One set which is borderline problematic (mostly a meta advancement, which we are already seeing adaptations to counter) does not a broken 'mon make.

Besides that complaints on this Mon aren’t exactly new. If you’ve followed any high level play or just hung around, it’s been seeing them for a while. People aren’t exactly loading up Moon weak teams. People are preparing for it, but still getting trolled because it’s a bullshit Mon that picks what it wants to beat and you’re at the mercy of what set it’s running because you can’t reasonably expect to run something for all its Tera variants and move choices. There isn’t exactly a lot of overlapping counter play to this Mon’s different sets. One reason (among many because it is a great Mon atm) that Corv is seeing more usage is because it’s one of the few mons that can check a fair amount of Moon sets. But even Corv is vulnerable to options like Taunt or Tera Ghost.

The early week metagame in SPL was dominated by team structures which were very weak to moon, specifically the Tera Fairy variant. If you take a look at the usage statistics, the top 4 most used 3-'mon pairings are all extremely weak to the combination of Dark/Fairy STAB, which is the most common set. Similarly, looking at overall usage, out of the top 10 most used mons, 6 of them are weak to one of Dark/Fairy and Ogerpon is easily dispatched at +1.

Meta development always occurs during tours and we are seeing that right now. Week 9 brought a ton of usage of Clef balances and unique defensive cores featuring Prim/Geezing/Corv, indicating that metagame trends are progressing in a different direction, one which is far less easy for moon to exploit. Most ladder teams are also well equipped to deal with Moon as seen by the much higher (by comparison) usage of webs, booster mons, etc.

There will always be certain 'mons that punish certain structures (see: SD Scor vs fat, Nite/Lu vs offense, subtect vs balance, etc), and Moon clearly falls into that category. As it is right now, it doesn't cross the line into being broken for me, and I believe it should stay in the tier.

 

[Seraphyde]

Roaring Moon is not really unique in the camp of “click Dragon Dance to win instantly”, I have been rather vocal about the fact that Roaring Moon’s capacity for bullshit does not really exceed that of Kyurem, Dragonite, or even Raging Bolt (though not DD), all of which have more balanced bulk than Roaring Moon; pretty much any complaint about Moon can also be directed at these mons as well. Kyurem and Raging Bolt in particular also quite commonly use Tera Blast Fairy, while Dragonite occasionally uses Tera Ground EQ and also has access to Roost. I’ve seen stuff like Weakness Policy Tera Blast, and I can guarantee that if Dragonite started having set variety like that, people would start clamoring for a suspect as well, which leads me to my next point.

I think people are mostly exaggerating the extent to which Moon can flip matchups. The three most realistic Tera options nowadays are Flying, Fairy, and Ground, pretty much everything else is a niche tech. I think this test is largely a reaction to the rise of new sets, and while I’m not going to discredit the existence of previous complaints about Roaring Moon, they weren’t really enough to warrant a suspect and it is the recent set innovation which has caused support for a suspect to swell. Moon Teras are quite predictable, and it can often find itself in a position where the tho is is to either get sacked or expend Tera, which can then be exploited if the enemy was planning on saving it for something else. Pretty much anything that outspends and OKOs does this, such as Iron Valiant, Weavile, and even opposing max speed Roaring Moon with Dragon Claw or Outrage. Predictable Teras can also be used to pivot into something that’s better suited to take it on post-Tera. Moon isn’t too difficult to wall either, the Roosters of the tier can take it on quite comfortably, Avalanche or BP Dondozo beats it, Ting-Lu can Whirlwind it out on a predicted DD, etc. I hate anything that gets recovery, but Roaring Moon’s recovery is easier to punish and harder to use because of it’s nature as an offensive Pokemon, and it’s arguably even helpful in order to punish passive play.

Roaring Moon is a valuable asset and staple of hyper offense and offense, providing crucial Knock Off support and sometimes pivot support. Some people have cited its powerful STAB knock as being harmful because it can punish defensive Pokemon, on the contrary, this is GOOD and HEALTHY for the metagame because it prevent switch-ins from being free and brainless. This punishes passive and predictable play and is a good method of forcing progress against defensive teams. Roaring Moon cannot overwhelm most of its defensive checks on its own, so being able to at least get rid of an item is one of its few unique qualities that separates it from the other sweepers in the tier, and it is a GOOD quality that a lot of team structures can benefit from in order to have a method of forcing progress against obnoxious balancemons such as Ting-Lu and Clefable.

It is difficult to make points specifically pertaining to Roaring Moon because a lot of the complaints about it can be made about other Pokemon in the tier such as Kyurem and Dragonite. So, to close, I am simply going to say it again, banning Tera Blast would neuter Moon and pretty much every sweeper in the tier; this would be a massive help for reducing Tera mind games and constraints in the team builder, and a Tera Blast suspect should have been the primary course of action (but this suspect isn’t about Tera Blast).

 

[peepeepoopoo722]

I know that soandso is banned but shouldn't we have a qualified thread so people like me can't burry the thread in under qualified opinions?

Seems wrong to correct Tera Blast posters by citing previous survey data considering moon was not even a factor on that survey. Deliberate disregard of opinion even.

Going on vacation won't even attempt reqs unless I get bored down in Georgia. As it stands Moon is a bit broken, very similar to Kyurem. though kyurem even has a frustrating special set that would continue to be a problem even if it's DD set was neutered unlike moon. I wouldn't grief a moon ban, as is, though I hope we would be honest enough to consider it the 4th if so.

 

[Finchinator]

Qualified thread is going up tonight

Correcting people for breaking basic forum rules is the job of moderators.

 

[JackRG]

Unfortunately I'm a selfish fuck and will probably vote DNB probably because I think offense in this tier is shit and we need more offense. Sorry everybody who doesn't like Moon.

Please elaborate here? Offensive teams are probably the best they’ve ever been in SV. Please don’t vote DNB just because you want Tera Blast banned instead, because theres no guarantee that will ever happen

 

[RainebowValiant]

Please elaborate here? Offensive teams are probably the best they’ve ever been in SV. Please don’t vote DNB just because you want Tera Blast banned instead, because theres no guarantee that will ever happen

we went from flutter mane and palafin to baxcalibur to archaludon rain to palafin again but in the zama/pecha/lu balance meta offense is the best they've ever been? Idk man this seems like stereotyping SV as an offense meta.

 

[UltraSword]

I am not sure how I feel about Roaring Moon. On one hand, it has some obviously broken tools with the main one being tera blast. Tera flying acrobatics is still as solid as ever, bulky dragon dance sets are hard to beat if you let Moon set up, and tera blast fairy sets are breaking the tier in half. On the other hand, I feel that pokemon like Dragonite and Kyurem are more dangerous threats with slightly more set variety. Roaring Moon also has a mid (if not outright bad) defensive typing that is beaten by faster foes such as Weavile, Darkrai, Iron Valiant, etc. which forces it to be a tera hog.

Unfortunately, I can't say how I feel due to a lack of experience playing with or against Roaring Moon. I am admittedly low ladder, and I haven't seen a Roaring Moon on there in AT LEAST 4 months. For that reason, I am going to attempt to do a suspect run and use Roaring Moon. I will come back later to share my thoughts post suspect run at a later date.

 

[JackRG]

we went from flutter mane and palafin to baxcalibur to archaludon rain to palafin again but in the zama/pecha/lu balance meta offense is the best they've ever been? Idk man this seems like stereotyping SV as an offense meta.

during my suspect run, roughly 70% of teams i encountered on ladder where some kind of offense. Not saying that's an issue or anything, just telling you what i see.

 

[Welcome to mars]

Honestly, I can see a valid argument for moon not being completely unpredictable to the point of having no checks or counterplau, whilst it has set variety, it usually runs tera flying or fairy, depending on the team and supporting mons, you may be able to guess what tera type it may be running

However, this isn’t consistent at all (teambuilding can be wacky to the point that you have no idea what roaring moon is doing on the enemy team) and at best you can only make an educated guess based on 6 mons with no known sets, this also does nothing to justify roaring moon being near impossible to account for on the teambuilder, but I’ll be hearing out other arguments since what I just said is most likely incredibly flawed

Unfortunately I'm a selfish fuck and will probably vote DNB probably because I think offense in this tier is shit and we need more offense. Sorry everybody who doesn't like Moon.

If you aren’t going to say anything of value to the discussion, just don’t click post reply

 

[CritsMakeMeForfeit]

it was cathartic to see that there are others considering a gliscor suspect, as i still am not really sure how to beat it without a tera ice or an extremely lucky combination (like just now when someone switched their gliscor into my choice band tera water barraskewda using liquidation in the rain)

As for Roaring Moon, I stand no hope of reaching req's (never hit 15 in my life) but my experience with it is too easy to achieve win condition with it. a single dragon dance often provides enough to attack to sweep well over half the meta with stealth rocks up.

Edit: I wanted to add, when facing a moon, it feels like a pokemon *has* to be sacced to bring out the counter - and that any attempt to set-up or run status of some kind will be outdone by the dragon-dancing. That any chance of winning comes only from prankster parafuse and just hoping for the best.

 

[LMMS Legend]

Roaring Moon is not really unique in the camp of “click Dragon Dance to win instantly”, I have been rather vocal about the fact that Roaring Moon’s capacity for bullshit does not really exceed that of Kyurem, Dragonite, or even Raging Bolt (though not DD), all of which have more balanced bulk than Roaring Moon; pretty much any complaint about Moon can also be directed at these mons as well.

This is just wrong. For the sake of preventing misinformation, here are some basic differences between Roaring Moon and Dragonite/Kyurem:

-Dragonite and Kyurem are weak to Stealth Rock, meaning that they have to either sacrifice 25% of their HP every time they come in, or run Heavy-Duty Boots which takes away their item slot and makes them predictable. RM can run Booster and only lose 12% to Rocks which is a big deal.

-Roaring Moon is way faster: It is nearly impossible to outspeed and revenge kill a Proto-Spe Roaring Moon after DD. Even Proto-Atk requires a scarfer above 119 base speed to revenge kill which is not easy to fit on every team.
Some relevant Scarfers between 95 and base 120 Spe: Garchomp, Enamorus, booster IVal/IMoth/ITreads
Now for Dragonite (between 80 and 95 spe): Samurott-H, Gholdengo, Landorus-T, other boosters like Tusk
There are others but that's just the most common in OU.

-Roaring Moon has Knock Off to weaken the opposing team, even if it can't sweep: Even if Roaring Moon decides to run one of its more standard offensive sets, or can't tera for some reason, knocking off Moltres or Zapdos' Heavy-Duty Boots or Garg's leftovers while usually doing a ton of damage to them in the process makes winning with your Kingambit or whatever that much easier in the end game. The floor scenario for RM is higher than that of Kyurem or Dragonite (and debatably, the ceiling too, but that's beside the point).

-Roaring Moon has Taunt: This to me is the BIGGEST difference between RM and the other two. Roaring Moon is so much harder to check defensively because of this move. Tera Water Garganacl wants to come in and use Curse/Iron Defense to beat it 1v1? Nope. Moltres coming in to try to Will-O-Wisp? Nope, denied. Ting-Lu wants to whirlwind? Ha, nice joke. With Tera fairy and Taunt+Roost, RM easily breaks through Dondozo, Clefable, the list goes on and on. DNite can't break through any of those or stop Lu's whirlwind from happening, even with Tera, and Kyurem only beats Lu and has to Tera Fire or sub on Moltres.

The reality is that every single one of these things matters and means a lot actually. I'm really stunned that a pokemon like RM is legal in the tier currently. I'm not gonna get into a discussion on what Kyurem/Dragonite have OVER roaring moon since I don't have the time/willpower to go through all the nuances, but it likely pales in comparison to all of the above. And, I mean, you can see that in practice if you watch SPL, or high level games. RM's presence is the highest. I just found this thread and it's so weird that's it's turned into a pro-RM circlejerk, maybe the people who are most willing to reply are the people who have teams with RM on them and want to keep their elo?