Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 4: I’m Coming Home | Magearna, Urshifu Quickbanned

[Actuarily]

Tell the world I'm coming home
Let the rain wash away all the pain of yesterday
I know my kingdom awaits and they've forgiven my mistakes
I'm coming home, I'm coming home​

Pokémon Home is coming to Scarlet/Violet! With that update, a lot of new Pokémon will be entering the metagame. We suspect that the below Pokémon will be eligible:

Pokémon becoming eligible in SV

• Charmander
• Charmeleon
• Charizard
• Articuno
• Zapdos
• Moltres
• Mew
• Mewtwo
• Cyndaquil
• Quilava
• Typhlosion
• Wooper
• Quagsire
• Kyogre
• Groudon
• Rayquaza
• Uxie
• Mesprit
• Azelf
• Dialga
• Palkia
• Origin Dialga
• Origin Palkia
• Heatran
• Giratina
• Origin Giratina
• Cresselia
• Arceus
• Hisuian Growlithe
• Hisuian Arcanine
• Hisuian Voltorb
• Hisuian Electrode
• Hisuian Qwilfish
• Hisuian Sneasel
• Hisuian Samurott
• Hisuian Lilligant
• White-Striped Basculin
• Hisuian Zorua
• Hisuain Zoroark
• Hisuian Braviary
• Hisuian Sliggoo
• Hisuain Goodra
• Hisuian Avalugg
• Hisuian Decidueye
• Wyrdeer
• Kleavor
• Ursaluna
• Basculegion
• Sneasler
• Overqwil
• Enamorus
• Oshawott
• Dewott
• Samurott
• Tornadus
• Thundurus
• Landorus
• Meloetta
• Chespin
• Quilladin
• Chesnaught
• Fennekin
• Braixen
• Delphox
• Froakie
• Frogadier
• Greninja
• Carbink
• Diancie
• Hoopa
• Volcanion
• Rowlet
• Dartrix
• Dexidueye
• Magearna
• Grookey
• Thwackey
• Rillaboom
• Scorbunny
• Raboot
• Cinderace
• Sobble
• Drizzile
• Inteleon
• Perrserker
• Zacian
• Zamazenta
• Eternatus
• Kubfu
• Urshifu
• Zarude
• Regieleki
• Regidrago
• Glastrier
• Spectrier
• Clayrex

Given with how strong many of these pokemon are entering the metagame, this will require rapid tiering. So the DOU Council will follow Smogon Tiering Policy and have all new Pokemon to SV (excluding cover legends) start as Doubles OU eligible. However, Pokémon that were previously banned in SV DOU will remain banned.

The list of cover legends that are auto-banned are as follows:

• Koraidon
• Miraidon
• Mewtwo
• Kyogre
• Groudon
• Rayquaza
• Dialga
• Palkia
• Origin-Dialga
• Origin-Palkia
• Giratina
• Origin-Giratina
• Arceus
• Zacian
• Zamazenta
• Eternatus
• Calyrex-Shadow
• Calyrex-Ice

This will mean that all other new pokemon are Doubles OU eligible. Before the home metagame is released, the Doubles Council will hold a quickban vote slate to determine the fate of two groups of pokemon/abilities:

1. Pokémon or abilities that were banned in SV DOU before Home compatibility. This includes Flutter Mane, Annihilape, Shadow Tag, and Tatsugiri. These start in Doubles Ubers, and in order to be eligible in Doubles OU, they must get a 2/3 supermajority council vote to drop to Doubles OU.

2. Pokémon that are joining SV via Home, but were banned in the last generation. This will include Magearna and Urshifu-Single-Strike. These start in Doubles OU, and they must get a 2/3 supermajority council vote to be banned from Doubles OU.

Following that, there will be 3 quickban vote slates to try to quickly react to metagame changes and remove overpowered pokemon from the metagame.

• The first will occur on May the 31st, and only Pokémon included on the pre-home slate will be included.
• The second will occur on June the 4th, and only Pokémon included on the pre-home slate will be included.
• The last will occur on June the 11th. In this slate, new Pokemon may be included that weren’t in the previous slates. These will be determined by council and community discussion.

After these slates, suspect tests will be the preferred method to determine tiering.

This thread will be where all announcements regarding tiering decisions will be posted. This is also the thread that should be used for discussion of the post-Home SV DOU metagame. The council would love to hear your input regarding how the new Pokemon will affect the metagame. We're looking forward to this new metagame and the discussion that follows!

The Pre-Release Slate
As we’ve heard rumors of the Home compatibility going up early we can release the first slate of quickban votes prior to Home’s release. The votes are below:

The following changes are the result:

• Magearna is banned to Dubers.
• Flutter Mane drops to DOU
• Annihilape drops to DOU

We’re excited for these changes and are looking forward to the future slates! Please give your feedback below!

 

[SuckyLucky]

Looks like a good list/plan, but now I’m sad that we have to deal with Cresselia, Mew, and Volcanion again. I think Annihilape is prob gonna get rebanned to DUbers, and I doubt Lando has as big an impact this gen too.






Cant wait to run Regieleki to counter the Chi Yu + Booster Bundle core.

 

[GRAND EMPRESS]

Press F for Dozo. But looks fun. Can't wait to try out this new meta

 

[Actuarily]

The first quickban voting slate after release has been completed! The votes are below:

As a result, Urshifu is banned from Doubles OU (the rapid-strike version is still legal). Tagging DaWoblefet to implement, thanks!

This is a mid-round change and this will not impact round 1 of the SV DOU Home Kickoff.

There will be another slate occurring June the 4th on these same Pokémon. We are also beginning to get a sense of what new Pokémon may need to be considered for the 11th.

Feel free to discuss this or any other metagame aspects below!

 

[SuckyLucky]

please something with trick room

 

[HeatEdgeSword]

Ursaluna is ridiculous that it isn't funny. A good way to compare it is Melmetal that boasted terrifying firepower and bulk that it doesn't just benefited from Trick Room, but Tailwind as well. Guts + STAB Facade just erase almost everything in sight and most Ghost-types dread its Headlong Rush or High Horsepower. It also pairs very well with Rilalboom with its Grassy Terrain completely mitigating the burn damage and provide Fake Out support to Tailwind or Trick Room setters. I would be surprised if Ursaluna manages to last for more than 3 months, and that's being generous. Even if Terastallization somehow gets the axe, I still believe that Ursaluna would still be too unbearable to stay.


Landorus Incarnate doesn't seem to be problematic now, but I get the feeling it might be as the metagame progresses. Sandsear Storm serves as its spread move that's also boosted by Sheer Force with the only downside being its 80% accuracy. Landorus also gets Nasty Plot which can further amplify its special attack, if you can get around with 4-moveslot syndrome.


Another Pokemon that I can see being problematic later on is Urshifu Rapid Strike Style (I know, it's pretty mouthful) as it could potentially pair very well with Chien-Pao as it greatly benefited from Swords of Ruin and in return, Urshifu helps eliminating most Fire- and Steel-types for Chien-Pao. Furthermore, Urshifu now gains Swords Dance if it gets the chance to fit it and set up. I will admit that I haven't use it often enough, so this might fall into theorymon territory.


In a way, Hisuian Goodra is like a minmaxed Iron Defense + Body Press Melmetal. Steel/Dragon type combo is amazing as it only leaves Hisuian Goodra 2 weaknesses in Fighting and Ground. Goodra also has a ludicrous special defense of 150 with the trade off being its initial defense being 100. However, one of the most appealing aspect of Goodra has to be Shell Armor that makes it immune to critical hits, although it already resisted Surging Strikes and Flower Trick already. Sap Sipper is also good since Spore won't work on it. If a player gets into a good position or facing a bad player like me, Goodra will be able to steamroll everything.


Diancie is a blessing to SV Doubles as it's one of the few non-Psychic-type Trick Room setter as well as being the best answer to the goldfish. As for its terastallization options, Diancie can go for either Water-type to eliminate some of its pesky weaknesses or Grass-type to block Spore and becoming resistant to Ground-type attacking.


Volcanion does the usual Volcanion thing, not much else to add on. Losing Roar hurts though.


I feel like having Grassy Glide made way too optimized, which is saying a lot as Incineroar gets Parting Shot, so losing it is probably for the better. Despite this, Rillaboom still excels as a Fake Out pivot thanks to its valuable asset, especially Grassy Surge. Drum Beating can serve as a speed control option or Knock Off for item removal. Terastallization is also a huge boom for it as it can now resist Fire-type by turning into a Water-type.


While it lost plenty of moves in Scarlet and Violet, most notably Fake Out and Coaching, Mew is still good as it neatly compress Tailwind, Entry Hazards and/or Pollen Puff together. Mew also greatly benefited from Terastallization as it can become Fairy-type for a better defensive profile, Ghost-type to avoid Fake Out and Extreme Speed or Grass-type.
Unfortunately, because Roar isn't a TM move in SV, it has to resort to using the lamer Dragon Tail instead :|. Why didn't Game Freak buff its accuracy to 100% is beyond me when it gets blocked by Protect and Substitute anyway?


In Doubles OU, Regieleki is...fine. On the one hand, Regieleki benefits from Covert Cloak as it no longer gets interrupted by Fake Out and the current Pokemon rooster isn't as hostile like last time. However, as with most glass cannons, Regieleki is very prone to being revenge-killed. It also has to compete with Iron Bundle, as it's actually faster with an activated Quark Drive, provides better coverage without resorting to Terastallization and could live some physical hits with its 114 defense. Perhaps Regieleki would be better in VGC considering battles last shorter.


Unfortunately, I don't think Hoopa can cut it in SV Doubles; it's just too hostile to it with many fantastic Dark-types that can shrug off its STAB coverage. Eject Pack sounds like it can pair well with Hyperspace Fury but that's about it. Only use Hoopa Unbound if a Trick Room team needs something that can lift Protect. Outside of it, Urshifu is better since ignoring Protect is more than enough as well as being able to beat Dark-types.


free pizza zamazenta when

for real tho

Both forms of Zamazenta are currently allowed in OU to see if they would be too overwhelming for the environment to handle or not. While Singles and Doubles are entirely different stories (see Kartana), I think it would be fair to suspect test Zamazenta Hero of Many Battles (I know, it's pretty mouthful) to DOU later down the line as it doesn't seem to anything mindblowing now that Dauntless Shield has been nerfed as well as losing Coaching. While it does have several amazing qualities such as its speed and bulk, there are things that need to be considered:

• Pure Fighting-type is mediorce for defensive purposes. Although it grants it resistances to Dark- and Rock-types, Fairy- and Psychic-type will ruin Zamazenta's day. Toxic and burn will cripple Zamazenta as well if it doesn't Terastallize.
• As an offensive powerhouse, others such as Urshifu, Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu are more threatening than Zamazenta could ever wish. While its coverage is far from abysmal, Zamazenta would only realistically use Crunch, Psychic Fangs, Play Rough and maybe Iron Head. Using Close Combat also meant that it will lose Dauntless Shield's boost for the rest of the battle.
• As a Iron Defense + Body Press user, it would faces competition from the aforementioned Hisuian Goodra. Zamazenta also hates phazing.
• However, one thing that Zamazenta sets apart from others is its unique combination of Wide Guard, Snarl, Howl and/or Helping Hand for support. As with every Pokemon, Zamazenta struggles to fit all at once, but it certainly isn't going to be too overwhelming either.

Unless proven otherwise, I think Zamazenta should be fair in DOU in theory.

 

[Teals]

I just watched a tournament match where a lone Ape 6-0'd the opponents team. It had only two bulk ups present and the opponent had a Fluttermane which is theoretically supposed to check Ape. Now there are a couple conclusions that can be drawn from that. In doubles, it is incredibly hard for a single mon to 6-0 an entire team, especially when you take into account that it was sitting there alone. You can argue that the losing player just played poorly and shouldn't have put themselves in a position to let thar happen. However, I don't think this is the most fair way to assess it. Ape is a mon that rewards the user for getting hit, but if the opponent chooses to avoid doing so, (which makes sense) it allows Ape to sit and boost. As seen in this game, https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1876303810 Ape only needed two bulk ups to plow through an entire team. When Fluttermane comes in, Ape merely needs to terra to avoid being knocked out. While Ape can use terra to its advantage, nothing else can terra into anything that resists both of its stabs. I think there are two things that can be drawn from this. Ban Ape because it doesn't promote healthy gameplay and is clearly broken as it stands, or ban terra and allow checks to be actual checks

 

[Actuarily]

The second quickban voting slate after release has been completed! The votes are below:

As a result, Annihilape is banned from Doubles OU! Tagging Kris to implement, thanks!!

This is a mid-round change and thus will not impact round 2 of the SV DOU Home Kickoff.

The final slate will occur on June 11th. On this slate, in addition to the above Pokémon, the council will be open to considering new Pokémon/aspects to be voted on. Some posts above have already mentioned potentially problematic Pokémon, we hope that people will continue to discuss below what they think should be quickbanned! If community members want to nominate anything to be quickbanned, posting below is the best way to accomplish that.

 

[Actuarily]

So with the last quickban slate approaching, and not much discussion having occurred on this thread, I wanted to kick things off and give some of my takes on the main Pokémon on the radar: Ursaluna, Basculegion, Urshifu-RS, and Flutter Mane.

First up is On paper, this thing is ridiculously scary, with 140 base attack, guts, STAB Facade, and a good combo offensive typing of normal + Ground. This leads to crazy calcs where with Facade, it can ko most neutral threats (and just about every non resist with the help of Tera normal, or Helping Hand):
Here’s Facade vs a very physically bulky Amoonguss: 252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 244 HP / 196+ Def Amoonguss: 381-448 (88.6 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Here it’s vs what would be a good check in Rillaboom: 252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 433-510 (107.1 - 126.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Beyond that, it also gets a pretty good spread move in EQ, has a great partner in a TR setter + EQ immune in Cresselia, and even has very respectable bulk:

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Jet Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ursaluna: 362-428 (78.1 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage

With all this, I can see why people think the Cocaine Bear (TM) should be quickbanned. That being said, in my experience, and in the replays I’ve watched, this isn’t always the case. It has poor defensive typing, which can make it difficult to get on the field without a free switch. It’s very reliant on Trick Room, which sometimes can be hard to get up. It speed ties with many other top Pokémon, such as Iron Hands and Diancie, who can make things complicated (diancie with a def boost or two, Iron Hands if it wins the speed tie/underspeeds it), and is undersped by other prevalent TR mons like Torkoal and Amoonguss. From what I’ve seen so far, this has led to struggling to get into that position it wants where it can just click attacks for 3-4 turns and eliminate 3-4 threats:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1880021040-5a120rqw248zhiux32di41vozu84rkbpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1880614518-2pxfboypugythach1coeyv4o83ke6aupw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1880692241-e87yyedkwu0fn728uajcuwbvf22o8eapw
(I know a crit, but it was a roll, and it was in a bad spot, either dying to Rocky helmet or probably using a ground move into Lando-T, maybe they made a good prediction, but even then it’s in a tough spot.)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1877730329-svnvuew9potbzqg6tbi2gx44w2fudfapw

Because of this, I am kinda neutral. At this point I’d vote Do Not Ban, but I do think if there are some replays showing it just destroying everything/a team that can do a really good job of positioning it, I definitely could be persuaded. Just from what I’ve seen thus far, it’s not quite as good as it is on paper.

Next is This mon is a bit harder to evaluate, because it really has two different sets. On one hand, it’s a swift swim sweeper with last respects, or it could be an Adaptability attacker to be paired with speed control & occasionally clean up with Aqua Jet. The swift swim sweeper version I haven’t found to be too overpowering, it just is a rain version of Houndstone. Admittedly rain is better due to getting STAB rain boosted water moves, but Houndstone was barely used previously. The swift swim version falters against opposing speed control, with 280 base max speed, any form of opposing tailwind means a lot will outspeed Basculegion. Also, fast booster energy mons like Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle can outspeed Basculegion even in rain. On top of this, if it wants to outspeed Regieleki in rain, it cannot be Adamant. Therefore, it really wants to be positioned correctly (late in game so Last Respects has a high BP, with rain up, no opposing speed control), and even then it still struggles into top metagame threats. It needs 200 BP Last Respects to ohko Rillaboom (150 BP in calc):
252+ Atk Life Orb Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 343-406 (84.9 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

And 250 BP to reliably deal with Iron Hands (200 BP in calc):
252+ Atk Life Orb Basculegion Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Hands: 391-461 (87 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

So I feel pretty confident the rain set isn’t broken. The adaptability set does hit pretty hard at any point in the game but I haven’t found instances where this has been banworthy at all. Thus I am leaning Do Not Ban.

Next we have kinda the combination of the first two; water bear This is a mon that has probably gained the most since last generation, while retaining all its great attributes. Tera has let it power up its Surging Strikes to insane levels while also alleviating it of its worse defensive typing. Tera grass can also be used to ignore ragepowder and obviously flip its typing so that it can just fire off more powerful attacks. Alongside this, the removal of grassy glide limits its biggest check in Rillaboom, and Tapu Fini not being in the tier limits switchins. Urshifu in tailwind had always been a menace, but without those options there’s little left. It also gets back an excellent tailwind partner in Tornadus that lets it outspeed everything, and can taunt opposing speed control.

The main check currently for Urshifu-RS has been Rocky Helmet Amoonguss, which is effective. But with a best friend like Taunt Tornadus, who is able to stop Amoonguss from ragepowdering with taunt or can pressure it with flying moves, Amoonguss can be limited. This leaves Urshifu free to fire off strong attacks in tailwind, with little to check them:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1880614518-2pxfboypugythach1coeyv4o83ke6aupw

Because of this, for Urshifu-RS I am leaning Ban. I am not 100% certain, as it does have a lot that outspeeds it that checks it (Flutter, Bundle, Regieleki, and opposing speed control), but right now this hasn’t felt like enough.

Last we have When Flutter Mane was banned previously, it was in a metagame where just about every viable form of speed control had a poor matchup into it w/o Teraing. Tailwind options were dark and dragon types like Roaring Moon, Dragonite, and Murkrow. Trick room options were psychics like Armarouge & Hatterene. The main exceptions to this were Farigiraf and Indeedee-f, but both of these would lose to Chi-Yu, which led to nearly every game becoming who could win with Chi-Yu and Flutter on the field. This is no longer the case, with new speed control options like Tornadus, Diancie, and Thundurus. Even Cresselia is able to live a shadow ball:

252+ SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cresselia: 378-446 (85.1 - 100.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

This leads to gameplays where players are able to get up speed control and adequately handle Flutter Mane:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1879353487-km5nv0cnrk2lrzpmjn6uevonpssy5elpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1880614518-2pxfboypugythach1coeyv4o83ke6aupw

Therefore, I am leaning Do Not Ban.

I would love to hear other’s thoughts on these mons, or if there are other Pokémon that you think should be considered.

EDIT: I should also mention that of course if something doesn’t get quickbanned, there’s a very good chance it gets suspected sometime soon.

 

[Teals]

I'm not going to go too in depth with each mon as I think Act said it perfectly, but I'd like to parrot what he said in my own words.

The Bear

I also do not think this pokemon is broken. It has the ability to ohko a bunch of things, yes. However there are a lot of factors that must come into play for it to do what it wants. For one, it needs to spend a turn to activate flame orb. Secondly, it is pretty much entirely restricted to trick room. Trick room is definitely strong, but it is nowhere near as easy to set up compared to things like auto rain or prankster tailwind. Combine those two factors and I think it makes it awkward to position ursaluna effectively in most games. This being said I would say DNB.

The Fish

I love this mon. I think it is very well balanced. I haven't had much experience with the adaptability set, but I am aware that common items are av and scarf. Without cb or orb boost fish's damage output is respectable, but not game breaking. I think it works amazingly well as a late game rain cleaner and that's how I've mostly been playing it as. Late game last respects goes crazy and if you can maintain speed control you can just win. All this being said though, the fish has a number of weaknesses that keep it in check. Speed stat is pretty terrible, to the point where you won't even outspeed booster energy fluttermane or iron bundle. The ghost typing also makes it fall victim to chien-pao's sucker punch. Lastly, it is similar to ursaluna in a sense where it is almost necessary to play it in the late game as its strongest stab move only becomes good as the game goes on. All this being said, I'd say DNB.

The Bear 2.0

This is coming from a guy that has exclusively been using shifu so no bias. This mon is broken. In a meta where you can gain an adaptability boost through tera, having the ability to always crit and hit through protect is insane. This mon is probably the defining force of rain, as when combined with water tera you can do over half to standard amoonguss.
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Urshifu-Rapid-Strike Surging Strikes (3 hits) vs. 244 HP / 196+ Def Amoonguss in Rain on a critical hit: 267-315 (62 - 73.2%) -- approx. 2HKO
This is absolutely absurd and what makes this stand out over ursaluna is it is naturally fast, fits on easier speed control teams, and can hit through protect. With grassy glide rillaboom and tapu fini no longer existing, there isn't much that can check it defensively or offensively. Fluttermane, iron bundle can outspeed and ko, and if you tera water you become weaker vs chien-pao sucker punch, but that isn't enough to convince me this mon is fine to be here. So yeah, I'd say BAN for the better of the community.

Flutter

I don't have many strong opinions on this. It just feels like a good pokemon. Not broken, but good. I kinda hate pokemon existing that can easily outspeed opposing mons that are using tailwind, but that's just a personal bias. Lots of decent checks to this mon in forms of speed control, and just general play. With torn being able to easily set up tailwind you can find ways around it without sacrificing half of your team. Won't say much else on this mon as I just haven't had any strong opinions towards it. so yeah, DNB.

 

[SuckyLucky]

- Ban. Plenty of ppl run eject button/ eject pack to get it on the field during the TR setup turn, or even just protect to guarantee flame orb goes off and they are ready immediately. After that you need to be running something either bulky enough to take two hits from it or something slow enough to take one hit and kill in two. What will amoonguss or torkoal do against tera ground eq? Amoonguss just doesnt seen like a viable check/counter.
- Idk enough about to support a Ban, DNB
- BAN. Everyone gangsta until the Urshifu runs Choice Scarf and outspeeds everything that isn’t Regieleki.
- DNB, overall just feels too frail to be considered broken atm.

Edit: Something I forgot to mention is Ursaluna’s best friend Cresselia, who can Ally Switch it away from anything that can outspeed in TR and do super effective damage, i.e. slow Iron Hands.

 

[GenOne]

Sharing my takes on the following:

Tornadus-I
Urshifu Rapid-Strike
Ursaluna
Basculegion
Flutter Mane
⠀

⠀Tera



I don't think Tornadus-I warrants a quickban, but did want to at least plant the seed that Tornadus-I might belong in the conversation of potentially problematic stuff down the road.

This is going to be my longest write-up because it hasn't really been touched on yet in this thread. I know others in DOUCORD have talked a bit about dynamic speed control in this meta, and I just wanted to weigh in and say this has been on my mind too.

Prankster-boosted Tailwind with dynamic speed control mechanics has always been strong, but running a Prankster-boosted Tailwind user used to mean you had to use an otherwise mediocre Pokemon such as Murkrow, Whimsicott, or the SS version of Tornadus-I who's only good stab was Hurricane and its only viable use was on rain.

The Tornadus-I that exists in post-Home SV is significantly stronger for a number of reasons:

• Its offensive movepool went from being hot garbage (outside of rain) to quite good with newly gained access to a spread 100 bp Flying-type attack Bleakwind Storm. Turns out special Flying attackers don't suck so much when they have real moves to click!!
  
  
• There has just been a sheer speed creep in SV DOU which I think amplifies how valuable Tailwind is. In previous generations a Choice Scarfed (1.5x) 328 Speed mon like Chi-Yu or a Swift Swim (2x) user with a medium-high speed stat like Basculegion, Kingdra, Ludicolo were considered about as fast as most viable Pokemon could get. Now we have stuff like Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle that can naturally outspeed both of the aforementioned just by holding Booster Energy. And even without Booster energy, this meta just has a number of splashable strong attackers with sky-high Speed stats, like Chien Pao and Flutter Mane hitting 405 Speed, and Iron Bundle hitting 408 for example. In previous generations, you really only saw this kind of speed with a few utilitarian or glass cannon type mons like Zeraora, Dragapult and Pheromosa.
  
  
• SV era Tornadus-I has significantly more counterplay against Fake Out, in a meta that already just sees less Fake Out being used. People are commonly running Covert Cloak on Tornadus-I and while I don't think that's the right item for it on every team, the fact is it gets to bluff Covert Cloak in every game. Tera Ghost is an alternative means to the same end, although it comes at the cost of burning your valuable Tera slot.
  
  
• It is such an excellent enabler for strong Pokemon that can break Protect - namely, Urshifu Rapid-Strike* and to a lesser extent Hoopa-Unbound. Leading with Tornadus-I + Urshifu or Hoopa is just so incredibly strong, since you can basically pick the opposing team slot you want to damage and ensure you hit it right away. Not to mention, once Tailwind is up Tornadus has excellent synergy as a faster attacker that can chip things and break Focus Sashes with Bleakwind Storm before the Urshifu or Hoopa clicks their killshot move of choice.

Overall, based on the games I've watched and the games I've played myself, it basically feels like Tornadus-I is mandatory on any fast offensive team, because if you can't cancel out an opposing Tailwind you're just super prone to getting outspeed and overrun. Trick Room teams as well as just bulky offense teams (e.g. some of the samples with Cresselia) are the other good options for playing around Tornadus-I offensive builds.

But yeah I just think Tornadus-I provides a lot of immense value in one team slot and can be game-warping for some matchups, so it is sort of on my radar.



I am leaning towards the opinion that this Pokemon should be quickbanned, although I am amenable to counterarguments and overall community sentiment.

In general, Urshifu's combination of good overall stats, the ability to break Protect with all contact moves, and the ability to bypass Attack drops with a 100% Critical Hit STAB attack has always been insane; this is why in every metagame we've had to date the Single-Strike forme has always gotten the ban hammer.

In SS DOU it was pretty easy to give Urshifu Rapid-Strike a hall pass; in addition to Water being significantly worse than Dark as a primary offensive STAB, Urshifu Rapid-Strike had to constantly worry about the omnipresence of Rillaboom and its priority STAB attack Grassy Glide. Urshifu-R was of course still a great Pokemon, but it was also reasonably easy to account for in the teambuilder.

In SV DOU, Urshifu-R benefits greatly from the fact that Rillaboom lost Grassy Glide. It also benefits hugely from Terastialization* and to a lesser extent the existence of Chien Pao as new and additional Attack multipliers that can be stacked on top the held items Choice Band or Life Orb that it has always run. These buffs to its offensive presence, combined with fewer natural checks and how easily it pairs with Tornadus-I's Prankster Tailwind, make me inclined to think that Urshifu-R is too overpowered in this metagame and lacks appropriate counterplay. Additionally, the fact that it can also defensively Terastialize (for example into Grass-type to bypass Amoonguss and mitigate weaknesses) is also a huge buff to this Pokemon in particular.



I am leaning towards the opinion that this Pokemon should be quickbanned, although I am amenable to counterarguments and overall community sentiment.

I'll keep this one short and sweet.

Whenever I use Ursaluna on my teams, it becomes apparent that despite Ursaluna's gross sheer power and perfect STAB coverage, it is not without drawbacks as it gets worn down relatively easily and lacks longevity if not supported by healers (Cresselia, Amoonguss or Indeedee) and speed control (Trick Room is best, but Ursaluna can be ev'd to be useful in Tailwind too).

With that being said, whenever I face opposing Ursaluna I am quickly reminded about how little counterplay there really is to it, other than doing your level best to prioritize killing it quickly at all costs. At best, you have an Intimidate user like Landorus-T that can at least mitigate the Guts buff Ursaluna is getting. But the fact is, Ursaluna quite easily trades with or outright destroys all of the Intimidate users even after an Atk drop (Lando-T had a Fighting chance if not for losing Superpower this gen) and in general you know this mon is always getting anywhere from one to several KOs in every game it plays. Not to mention, if Ursaluna manages to Terastialize to Normal-type that alone is enough to reverse an Intimidate drop. Basically Ursaluna just has so much sheer offensive presence, as well as quite significant bulk, that I see it as a somewhat warping force in the metagame.



I am leaning towards the opinion that this Pokemon is not problematic right now, although I am amenable to counterarguments and overall community sentiment.

Before the post-Home SV DOU meta went live, I had it in my head that this Pokemon would for sure be busted af. After all, if Kingdra used to manage to be a huge threat with 95 SpA, surely 112 Atk with Wave Crash and Last Respects is going to be broken right??

But to the points I made earlier when discussing Tornadus-I, being a Swift Swim user with a middling Speed stat isn't all that anymore like it was in previous generations; numerous other top-shelf Pokemon outspeed Basculegion even with the Swift Swim boost. So it's no surprise to see so many users opting to instead explore the bulky Adaptability set which clicks stronger Aqua Jets in the early game and has enough longevity to actually be around in the endgame to click Last Respects; let's be real, if you're running an offensive Swift Swim set with Wave Crash and Head Smash, you're going to be useful either in the early game or endgame but not both.

This isn't to say that the Swift Swim set isn't good; it definitely is, and I've been on both the receiving end and delivering end of this set. But it isn't nearly as overpowered as I think a lot of us expected us to, and at least in the short term I believe we have bigger fish to fry before we put Basculegion on the chopping block.



I am of the opinion that this Pokemon is not problematic right now, and I would need to see strong counterarguments before I consider changing my mind.

Flutter Mane is still an insanely fast Pokemon with excellent Speed, Special Attack and nearly perfect STAB coverage with Fairy/Ghost. And yes it still pairs extremely well with Chi-Yu. But in practice, none of Flutter Mane's STABs have that high of BP, with Moonblast being the strongest at 95bp and everything else being significantly weaker. In the post-Home SV DOU meta it feels like the overall stat creep of Pokemon has left Flutter Mane in a position where it's still a solid Pokemon but imo not even in the conversation about things that might potentially be problematic.

Banning a generation's flagship mechanic should be avoided if at all possible in my opinion, but I recognize some members of the DOU community feel Terastialization should be banned and I am amenable to arguments that support this perspective.

I am writing about this because I noticed the topic has been brought up multiple times by numerous users within the DOU community, and I do have to admit that hypothetically banning Terastialization would reverse having numerous problematic Pokemon from being pushed over the edge while bringing the state of the metagame back into something that more closely resembles SS DOU or other previous generations where there were less random variables to have to account for during gameplay.

I personally still find the Terastialization mechanic enjoyable and appreciate how many new creative options it enables in the teambuilder. And furthermore, I feel like hypothetically banning Terastialization would be a massive and irreversible change to how tiering the metagame would play out, so unless we're absolutely sure it's the right call it's probably best to err of caution and try to make the tier work with Terastialization.

But...I am also writing to acknowledge that I understand and take seriously the opinions of everyone who is saying that we'd be better off with Tera gone, and this perspective does resonate with me to some extent even if my current position is we should definitely avoid doing so in the short term.

 

[qsns]

going to quickly post my rationale behind votes because I am ~busy~

Bear
- Ban. The best you can hope to do while Trick Room is up is awkwardly pivot around immunities to its STAB and hope it doesn't predict right/target the other slot. Facade OHKOs the entire tier, it OHKOs the entire tier through Intimidate with Tera Normal, and it has bulk close to Melmetal. Given the viability of Cress, Trick Room is incredibly easy to set up and you can EV it to outspeed many things under TW as well.

Fish
- Middling speed stat on this really, really sucks. I think it's better than the current VR ranks it (I'd probably say T2) but nowhere near broken.

Other bear
- Super unsure, I'll probably finalize my vote later but I'm leaving it in the sheet as ??? until I decide. Compared to the previous gen, it has a lot more multipliers available to it as GenOne discussed, but I think its speed tier holds it back too much in offense matchups (your opponent is almost always just matching your Tailwind) and bulky teams often carry Amoonguss that beat it extremely hard, as well as other bulky Pokemon that can more easily stomach its hits.

Flutter
- I think it contributes heavily to the ridiculous speed wars we're seeing right now but don't think the actual 'mon is broken. Would like a suspect on this at some point.

 

[Yoda2798]

Posting my personal thoughts about the current Pokemon on the rader:


Ursaluna - Ban

The bear is the Pokemon which has gotten the most attention for a ban and I've been most on board with. Guts Facade drops basically anything, and it also has Ground STAB for the few cases where you don't want to click Facade. Ursaluna is also incredibly bulky, meaning it will usually be able to live an attack from the slot it didn't target. As a Trick Room attacker it has immunity to Amoonguss' Spore from Flame Orb which is nice, though it still underspeeds and can Leaf Storm which does ~70% to max HP bear, but does less to Sp Def invested sets, and Lunar Healing from Cresselia can be enough to avoid it getting KOed. Ursaluna also has to watch out for Aqua Jet/Jet Punch under Trick Room, but Tera normal can help in both of these cases. The biggest problem with Ursaluna is getting it the speed control it needs to operate, though Cresselia being such a good Trick Room setter (and to a lesser extent Tornadus as a Tailwind setter) doesn't make that too difficult to achieve. I fall on the side of quickban when it comes to Ursaluna due to how strong it is with speed control.


Basculegion-M - No Ban

I think people have overhyped Basculegion a bit because of Last Respects being such a strong move on paper, even though in practice it's still a weak move early-game, and single-target glass cannons are historically pretty manageable in doubles. Swift Swim in rain is a strong attacker, but it's frail and as I mentioned before is only a single-target attacker, which holds it back. As others have mentioned already, its speed is also slightly underwhelming even with Swift Swim, with Booster Energy Speed Flutter Mane outspeeding unless you use Jolly, and plenty of Pokemon outspeeding it when aided by Tailwind, which Tornadus provides with Prankster before Basculegion attacks. Assault Vest Adaptability is the other set, and while it struggles less on the bulk front it emphasises the lack of natural Speed even moreso. For both sets, Last Respects Achilles' heel is also a weakness in practice, as early game it's more singularly reliant on Water STABs while Last Respects is weak, but also when Last Respects is strong because most of your team is knocked out, this can leave you without the resources to fully take advantage at that point. Definitely not a quickban worthy Pokemon for me.


Flutter Mane - No Ban

Flutter Mane is still the really really good Pokemon it was before, being very fast and having nice STABs, but the increase in power level of the meta has it standing less above the rest than in pre-home. OHKOing things is not as easy as before, with it being noticeably harder to click Dazzling Gleam in particular to pick up a KO and get free damage in the other slot compared to the old meta. Flutter's best offensive partner, Chi-Yu, is also a step down from its previous level which hurts the ability of the two to just effortlessly dominate together. Heatran is really notable new check to both of the duo, Tornadus setting Prankster Tailwind challenges Flutter's dominance when it comes to Speed, Rillaboom eats a hit and KOes back with Wood Hammer, and Urshifu having potential to threaten it, with Aqua Jet doing serious damage and Choice Scarf sets KOing even bulky Flutters with Surging Strikes. Flutter Mane is still clearly one of the best Pokemon in the meta and I can see a suspect for this down the line, but it's not at the overwhelming level it was before so I don't think it should be quickbanned.


Urshifu-Rapid-Strike - Ban

There's two big absences in the current meta compared to last gen for dealing with Urshifu, the loss of Grassy Glide on Rillaboom to check it offensively, and the lack of Tapu Fini to check it defensively, two of the top Pokemon in SS which can no longer hold it back as before. To a lesser extent, there's also no Naganadel and Dragapult is much worse than in SS, which further limits the Pokemon which can resist Urshifu's STABs, leaving Amoonguss as really the sole standout in that area. For Amoonguss, Tera Grass is a viable option, as turning it on to ignore the main counter can leave a team with few options against it. Urshifu's biggest drawback is its Speed, but it's not that bad, especially with Aqua Jet, and Choice Scarf is a seriously good set, you get the jump on all the faster Pokemon while taking advantage of their relative frailty, like even bulky Flutter Mane will drop to Surging Strikes and that's neutral, without rain/Tera/Chien-Pao. This is all without mentioning how Urshifu hits through Protect and can ignore Intimidate with Surging Strikes as well. While not intially top of the ban agenda, people have really caught on to Urshifu recently, and I've came around that it really needs to go, compared to last gen there's been several big changes in its favour that really limit the ways you can handle it, on a Pokemon that already ignored a couple of traditional forms of counterplay.

 

[Actuarily]

The final qb slate has concluded! The results are as follows:

As a result, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike is banned! Tagging Kris to implement, thanks!

With Ursaluna only receiving 4 out of the 5 necessary votes to quickban, it will absolutely be on the radar for a suspect. We will evaluate if/when that suspect should occur based on community feedback and see how early rounds of OSDT go. If you feel something else should be suspected, feel free to post below, or any other feedback!