Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 1: Misguided Ghosts | Flutter Mane Remains Banned

[Actuarily]

I am going away for a while
But I'll be back, don't try and follow me
'Cause I'll return as soon as possible
See, I'm trying to find my place​

It's time for the first DOU suspect of S/V! After being quickbanned with 4/7 votes, DOU Council has felt that Flutter Mane deserves a suspect test to let the community decide if it deserves a place in the metagame.

Upon release, Flutter Mane has been a staple of S/V DOU, with 44% of teams using it in the DWCOP Pools stage, ranking first of any pokemon. It's not hard to see why between the combination of great Special Attack and Speed stats that can be further boosted by its Protosynthesis ability, as well as its excellent offensive typing of Ghost & Fairy. Protosynthesis allows Flutter Mane to choose what it wants to be. On teams with adequate speed control, Flutter Mane can opt for a SpA boost in sun combined with a damage boosting item, causing it to hit extremely hard. Otherwise, Flutter Mane can use Booster Energy to increase its already terrific speed stat by one stage, allowing it to outspeed many Pokemon even when they're in tailwind. This duality of Flutter Mane being able to choose whether to hit extremely hard or to outspeed virtually everything makes it very difficult to prepare for in the builder as opponents have to be prepared for both options.

Meanwhile the Ghost typing allows Flutter Mane to be immune to Fake Out and Extremespeed, preventing the moves from disrupting its offensive onslaught, and the supplementary Fairy typing makes Flutter Mane able to hit super effectively the many Dark types in the tier that would otherwise resist its ghost attacks. Opposing Ghost attacks are one way to hit it, however the best user of that is opposing Flutter Mane, creating situations where players felt compelled to max out their speed and hope to win the tie. The most surefire way of dealing with Flutter Mane is using Steel types, however this led to the rise of a dominant pairing: Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu. Chi-Yu is able to deal with opposing Steel types while Flutter Mane covers Chi-Yu's fighting weaknesses, and both are able to take advantage of Chi-Yu's Beads of Ruin ability lowering Special Defenses and allowing the pair to fire off even more powerful spread attacks.

The main thing holding Flutter Mane back is its poor physical defenses. With 55 base HP and Defense, many strong physical attacks are able to OHKO Flutter, even without requiring a super effective hit. Strong priority moves such as Jet Punch, Bullet Punch, and Sucker Punch can also be used to ignore Flutter Mane's speed advantage. To combat this, many players started using a bulkier Flutter Mane that allowed it to live physical hits, while still utilizing its excellent Special Attack and Protosynthesis ability to hit the benchmarks it needs. Opponents also found success in dealing with Flutter Mane by utilizing defensive Tera typings such as Fire and Steel with pokemon that were able to take a hit and KO it back.

Since Flutter Mane is currently banned, 60% of the vote must be in favor to unban Flutter Mane.

Important: The laddering period will last for a total of nine days.

Laddering Period
Start: Friday, December 30th at 8:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-5)
End: Sunday, January 8th at 8:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-5)

All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! Doubles OU ladder on a fresh alt with a prefix of the form “DOUFM [Name]”. For example, I might use the account "DOUFM Actuarily" to ladder.

To qualify to vote, you must achieve a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may subtract 1 game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

Minimum Games Needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

Flutter Mane will be legal during this suspect.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

I'm not seeing a simple questions simple answers thread in the DOU section, so i'm just gonna put this here. Sorry if this doesn't belong here, please direct me if I need correcting.

I've noticed that the old DOU thread is gone. Does that mean that all DOU chat belongs here now? Or am I just blind and this is just for talk about the suspect test?

To make it about the suspect test: I'm very mixed on FM. It's right on the edge for me rn. It was clearly broken in singles, but not so clearly in doubles, hence the mixed council vote. My Barraskewda in rain one shots it every time (unless I misclick and use cc on it lol) and it could probably keel over and die from any constrict (/s), but I'm not smart enough to know if the meta is currently accepting of decent checks to it in general. There's a reason switching and teams are so integral to Pokemon (obviously lol). I should probably go back and find the council's reasoning for their votes in the first place.

 

[Fangame10]

9 days of pain

 

[Smudge]

Here's my two cents:

While I don't mind a Flutter test, in fact I think it's justified since the QB vote was so close... I don't think it's possible to determine whether it's broken currently, when Chi-Yu is in the format, due to what's been stated above. So, due to that:

If it gets unbanned, I think C-Y should be tested shortly after. I genuinely believe it's the biggest problem right now.

If it stays banned, and C-Y gets tested and banned, then I think a re-test would be in order. The interactions are that significant IMO.

Maybe it's a bad take, but it's how I'm feeling about this. Looking forward to the results regardless.

 

[RelicanthPrimal]

every day more ppl realize chi-yu is the problemo, not flutter. so vote free flutter, and then lets suspect chi, ban it, and see that flutter is manageable without its broken partner chi-yu.

chi-yu aura is what enables the insane dmg and its own stats are not joke either, if it was a much weaker mon i can understand seeing flutter being the main culprit.

 

[Noelle]

I'll keep this short since there's really not much to say here, but I thought I would give my opinion on this suspect:

I really don't get this one. Flutter Mane was literally just banned, and nothing has changed for it since it's ban that would make it any less broken. No new pokemon have been introduced, no meta developments have happened that would make it easier to manage, nothing. I guess a better question is instead of asking what changed for it to make it less broken, we should ask if it was really broken to begin with. The answer being... yeah, it was. In combination with Chi-Yu it had disgusting damage output, Protosynthesis further boosting its attacks made Flutter Mane + Chi-Yu perfect on Murkrow Sun teams. Flutter Mane also straight up deleted nearly all sources of speed control that didn't have the benefit of Prankster allowing them to move before Flutter Mane could demolish them, which heavily restricted the meta to the point where balance was extremely hard to use and the meta was dominated by Priority Spam and Murkrow Offense teams. It was also banned just as bulky sets were being discovered, and I shudder to think about how much more centralizing it would have become if players had more time to perfect it. I really don't see the point in even entertaining the idea of unbanning it at this point in time. It was almost universally agreed upon to be broken and centralizing, at the very least being considered heavily warping, and absolutely nothing has changed to the point where it would be anywhere close to a manageable and healthy presence.

I've also seen people talking about how Chi-Yu could be the problem rather than Flutter Mane. My opinion on it is to ban both. Everything that makes Flutter Mane broken still exists in a tier without Chi-Yu, as Chi-Yu pretty much just functions as a battery for it and doesn't help with any of it's inherent weaknesses such as low physical bulk and weakness to priority attacks. Chi-Yu on it's own is also fairly problematic, however. It still has great damage output and benefits greatly from Murkrow's Tailwind support, but now has new partners such as Iron Bundle and Gholdengo, and while not as centralizing as Flutter Mane, these kinds of "New Age" Murkrow Offense teams when backed by priority blocking support in the form of Tsareena or Indeedee-F could easily end up becoming problematic as people begin experimenting with it more. Personally, I think Flutter Mane should stay banned and Chi-Yu should be suspected after this suspect (Annihilape isn't really broken, it has pretty exploitable flaws and probably isn't even the best Pokémon in the tier currently).

 

[eragon]

I'd like to preface this by discussing Chi-Yu. While I do partially agree with the above posts regarding Chi-Yu, I do not find it to be the main problem currently. For example, consider the Iron Bundle and Chi-Yu combination. Although certainly strong, this duo is not nearly as problematic as Flutter Mane was when paired with Chi-Yu. To me, this indicates that Flutter Mane was the biggest problem with the metagame while it was legal, not Chi-Yu. That being said, I do anticipate a need to ban Chi-Yu literally as soon as home drops, when there are other powerful special attackers, but currently I think it is fine.

With that out of the way, let's talk about Flutter Mane. While this mon was legal, it was on almost half of all top teams, and without the menace that was Dondozo, I expect it would have been even higher. Flutter Mane could run several sets, ranging from booster energy to specs to even sitrus berry on bulkier (and worse lol) sets. I was definitely in agreement with the council's quickban, the combination of its stats and excellent offensive type coverage made it too fast and too strong for the metagame to handle. I think without Dondozo shenanigans in this suspect test, it will be pretty hard to justify allowing this mon back into the tier, although I appreciate the council's willingness to put this up for a test given the somewhat controversial nature of its quickban.

Finally, Annihilape. This mon is a huge problem without offensive threats, it was only held in check by the two mons that were banned, without Tatsugiri and Flutter Mane I've really been able to see how centralizing Annihilape is. With screen support, it sometimes feels unkillable given its high hp and decent defenses, and attacking it literally makes it stronger, while a partner Amoonguss or Wo-Chien can sit next to it and continuously pollen puff. Almost all DWCOP playoff games have included an Annihilape, and I honestly don't think it can be suspected soon enough. In the absence of powerful wallbreakers, rage fist on this Pokemon feels very difficult to stop, especially with tera (I think this is one of the very few mons on which tera can feel problematic). As soon as home drops and more powerful options are available, I don't think this will be a problem, but it certainly is now in my opinion.

 

[Commander Beta]

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Palafin-Hero Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 248-292 (98.4 - 115.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Possible damage amounts: (248, 250, 254, 256, 258, 262, 264, 268, 270, 274, 276, 280, 282, 286, 288, 292)

I don´t think we need much more proof that this thing is broken, true, it´s frail, but even the most powerful priority attack in history outside of ubers can´t guarantee to kill a basically uninvested Flutter Mane after choice band, tera water, and 252 atk EV if it uses a +speed nature (as I often do right now), even then you have to deal with the occasional focus sash (although to be fair, Glimmora hazards will break sash in most games it is in), which can then unleash a hardly resisted STAB combo with 135 sp atk, I´m pretty sure I´ll be voting ban, and using Scizor a lot more while the suspect lasts, until it tera ghosts and it no longer 0HKO.

 

[Amaranth]

Finally, Annihilape. This mon is a huge problem without offensive threats, it was only held in check by the two mons that were banned, without Tatsugiri and Flutter Mane I've really been able to see how centralizing Annihilape is.

I am beyond confident that Annihilape would be better in a meta with Flutter Mane. And it was easily better in the meta with both FM and Tatsugiri than it is now.

The screens + Annihilape + Pollen Puff teams absolutely thrive against "strong attackers" that can't stat up in any way like Flutter Mane, because you just nerf their damage with screens and they have no way to kill you faster than you can heal everything back up with Pollen Puff.
I'm not gonna post calcs in the interest of not revealing my favorite monkey spread before dwcop ends but, Flutter Mane is a dream match up honestly. Even without Ape tera, FM's Dazzling Gleams from behind screens are an absolute breeze. With Tera taking away your weakness to FM's STABs, anything it can throw at you is a welcome boost to Rage Fist and little else. Then you add in the fact that both Arcanine and Amoonguss, two very common supporters for Ape screens, also laugh at anything that FM tries to do, and you just have an absolute dream match up.
Then you add in the fact that with FM, we'll probably see Murkrow hyper offense type of teams rise up again, and those teams are honest to god impossible to lose against with a properly played Annihilape screens. They just don't have the damage output to push through screens + Pollen Puff.
These hyper slow "pivot around and keep everything healed until Annihilape's ready to go" sort of teams have two real weaknesses, one is hazards that put a timer on your ability to pivot, and two is setup that gets there faster than you. Both Tatsugiri and FM were complete food for Annihilape.

Tatsugiri teams are a complete joke to handle; as soon as they hit the field they're locked in forever and you will be able to heal up your entire team to 100% while watching Donbozo tickle you. They were not in any way stopping Annihilape from being strong.
And the almighty Strong Attacker Flutter Mane with a Booster Energy in SpAtk really is doing fuck all to stop the Ape teams from getting going.

The reason Annihilape seems more centralizing now is that time has passed and people realized how good it is. It was not "held in check" by any of the banned mons, the banned mons were fantastic matchups for it but Ape wasn't played enough.

As a matter of fact I think Flutter Mane would be perfectly fine to unban precisely because most Flutter Mane teams are absolute poopoo against the most meta-defining archetype (Annihilape screens). But probably the best metagame we can hope for is one in which FM and Annihilape and Chi-Yu are all gone.

I'm thinking of voting unban because I earnestly believe this mon is not broken in the current meta. But I have to imagine that after Ape goes we'll have to deal with FM again and that'll be a bit awkward

 

[RelicanthPrimal]

I'll keep this short since there's really not much to say here, but I thought I would give my opinion on this suspect:

I really don't get this one. Flutter Mane was literally just banned, and nothing has changed for it since it's ban that would make it any less broken. No new pokemon have been introduced, no meta developments have happened that would make it easier to manage, nothing. I guess a better question is instead of asking what changed for it to make it less broken, we should ask if it was really broken to begin with. The answer being... yeah, it was. In combination with Chi-Yu it had disgusting damage output, Protosynthesis further boosting its attacks made Flutter Mane + Chi-Yu perfect on Murkrow Sun teams. Flutter Mane also straight up deleted nearly all sources of speed control that didn't have the benefit of Prankster allowing them to move before Flutter Mane could demolish them, which heavily restricted the meta to the point where balance was extremely hard to use and the meta was dominated by Priority Spam and Murkrow Offense teams. It was also banned just as bulky sets were being discovered, and I shudder to think about how much more centralizing it would have become if players had more time to perfect it. I really don't see the point in even entertaining the idea of unbanning it at this point in time. It was almost universally agreed upon to be broken and centralizing, at the very least being considered heavily warping, and absolutely nothing has changed to the point where it would be anywhere close to a manageable and healthy presence.

I've also seen people talking about how Chi-Yu could be the problem rather than Flutter Mane. My opinion on it is to ban both. Everything that makes Flutter Mane broken still exists in a tier without Chi-Yu, as Chi-Yu pretty much just functions as a battery for it and doesn't help with any of it's inherent weaknesses such as low physical bulk and weakness to priority attacks. Chi-Yu on it's own is also fairly problematic, however. It still has great damage output and benefits greatly from Murkrow's Tailwind support, but now has new partners such as Iron Bundle and Gholdengo, and while not as centralizing as Flutter Mane, these kinds of "New Age" Murkrow Offense teams when backed by priority blocking support in the form of Tsareena or Indeedee-F could easily end up becoming problematic as people begin experimenting with it more. Personally, I think Flutter Mane should stay banned and Chi-Yu should be suspected after this suspect (Annihilape isn't really broken, it has pretty exploitable flaws and probably isn't even the best Pokémon in the tier currently).

yes nothing has changed because nothing needed to, when it was banned it was already controversial. if enough playerbase wants to unban/ban something, that is enough for it to warrant a suspect. in same way, if ppl wanted to unban goth then it deserves a suspect. i wouldnt want this, but thats how system should work. with goth i really wanted the qb cuz i didnt want it ruining dwcop. also about banning both, i can see people's view of this but when seeing chi as culprit and if that was banned, i really cant see flutter being unmanageable so i dont see why it would need a ban

 

[RelicanthPrimal]

I'd like to preface this by discussing Chi-Yu. While I do partially agree with the above posts regarding Chi-Yu, I do not find it to be the main problem currently. For example, consider the Iron Bundle and Chi-Yu combination. Although certainly strong, this duo is not nearly as problematic as Flutter Mane was when paired with Chi-Yu. To me, this indicates that Flutter Mane was the biggest problem with the metagame while it was legal, not Chi-Yu. That being said, I do anticipate a need to ban Chi-Yu literally as soon as home drops, when there are other powerful special attackers, but currently I think it is fine.

With that out of the way, let's talk about Flutter Mane. While this mon was legal, it was on almost half of all top teams, and without the menace that was Dondozo, I expect it would have been even higher. Flutter Mane could run several sets, ranging from booster energy to specs to even sitrus berry on bulkier (and worse lol) sets. I was definitely in agreement with the council's quickban, the combination of its stats and excellent offensive type coverage made it too fast and too strong for the metagame to handle. I think without Dondozo shenanigans in this suspect test, it will be pretty hard to justify allowing this mon back into the tier, although I appreciate the council's willingness to put this up for a test given the somewhat controversial nature of its quickban.

Finally, Annihilape. This mon is a huge problem without offensive threats, it was only held in check by the two mons that were banned, without Tatsugiri and Flutter Mane I've really been able to see how centralizing Annihilape is. With screen support, it sometimes feels unkillable given its high hp and decent defenses, and attacking it literally makes it stronger, while a partner Amoonguss or Wo-Chien can sit next to it and continuously pollen puff. Almost all DWCOP playoff games have included an Annihilape, and I honestly don't think it can be suspected soon enough. In the absence of powerful wallbreakers, rage fist on this Pokemon feels very difficult to stop, especially with tera (I think this is one of the very few mons on which tera can feel problematic). As soon as home drops and more powerful options are available, I don't think this will be a problem, but it certainly is now in my opinion.

i dont understand the partnering argument cant u argue it the other way around is there anything broken with flutter if didnt have chi yu as partner? flutter is obviously really strong mon itself but i think what makes ppl think flutter is the problem in the duo is cuz fairy is so good and it has the speed over chi yu so it grabs more kos when they r together.

also anni is super strong but im a huge doubter of screens as slapping on a screen breaker isnt hard, i find a strong offensive team with screen breaker can output too much damage for screen anni teams. anni could def be broken tho, theres diff ways to abuse rage fist like scarf and other damage mitigation + offensive stuff to check offense instead

 

[Grandmas Cookin]

Id like to preface this post by saying I dont think flutter mane should be freed, however I do think that this is the incorrect order to go about a potential attempt to free flutter mane.

currently the only thing that has changed since flutter mane was last allowed in the tier was tatsugiri was banned. no meta development has taken place that would make flutter mane any less ban worthy than it was before it was banned. I firmly believe in order for flutter mane to even be considered for a test down, chi-yu should be banned first. currently flutter mane has little to no counterplay available that can even slow it down, priority users like palafin and scizor have significant drawbacks such as not being able to threaten flutter mane until its first switched out, leaving ample opportunity for the flutter mane user to wreak havoc on the opponent first, or in scizors case, it can’t reliably check flutter due to flutter manes best partner chi yu threatening an ohko at any moment. additionally, a development shortly before flutter manes ban was the bulky flutter mane set that could reliably take a banded tera water jet punch from hero palafin. other notable ‘checks’ to flutter mane like using tera fire to resist fairy and fire simply cannot take more than one hit from the combination of flutter chi-yu. and when both pokemon are able to often take at least one hit themselves youre forced into running multiple dedicated checks that arguably make you worse into other equally broken threats such as annihilape and chien paos ruin sword + dnite.

I do not think flutter mane belongs in the tier as it stands, I think we should vote ban now and revisit this when home releases (where I still believe it will be broken)

 

[Arcticblast]

however I do think that this is the incorrect order to go about a potential attempt to free flutter mane

I don’t see this as “trying to free Flutter Mane” so much as “giving the public a chance to vote on it.” While it’s probably still broken, the council vote was controversial enough that it’s nice to have the broader opinion. If it stays banned (which I actually expect), then we know for sure it’s busted, as opposed to just being sort of confident.

anyway I’m hitting the ladder with Lilikoal tomorrow

 

[Teals]

Fluttermane bad because it doesn't allow for 40+ turn games with spikes everywhere. Fat mons can't touch it. Ban it lmao

 

[RelicanthPrimal]

ban flutter people, i really just want to see a detailed argument on how flutter is broken without chi-yu so i can understand that take more

 

[Fangame10]

ban flutter people, i really just want to see a detailed argument on how flutter is broken without chi-yu so i can understand that take more

Kinda like tiering policy that got tatsugiri banned, we don't ban parts of what makes a poke broken and Flutter Mane is the only special attacker that is actually contentious when paired with it. I have yet to see anyone complain about Iron Bundle or Gholdengo or Sylveon being too strong with Chi Yu. If you wanted to ban Chi Yu, you would ban it because it is really strong on its own not because it is giving a broken mon a spatk boost. Otherwise banning it because it makes flutter stronger is like banning Assault Vest for making Melmetal unkillable.

 

[RelicanthPrimal]

Kinda like tiering policy that got tatsugiri banned, we don't ban parts of what makes a poke broken and Flutter Mane is the only special attacker that is actually contentious when paired with it. I have yet to see anyone complain about Iron Bundle or Gholdengo or Sylveon being too strong with Chi Yu. If you wanted to ban Chi Yu, you would ban it because it is really strong on its own not because it is giving a broken mon a spatk boost. Otherwise banning it because it makes flutter stronger is like banning Assault Vest for making Melmetal unkillable.

arg doesnt work unless u can prove flutter is broken without chi too. i think chi is the broken part, u can replace where u put chi and flutter in ur arg thats mine

 

[GenOne]

Compared to any other special attacker, Flutter Mane is in a league of its own even without Chi-Yu support. Nothing else comes close to a special attacker that:

• Boasts 135 SpA + 135 Spe
• Ghost/Fairy typing which is amazing for "perfect" STAB coverage + natural Fake Out and Extreme Speed Immunity
• and the ability to boost either of its SpA or Spe even further with a Protosynthesis boost

Chi-Yu on the other hand is an amazing special attacker too, and obviously Flutter Mane's ideal partner because of:

• Beads of Ruin, mainly, weakening enemy special defenses
• and just Fire + Fairy spread attacking being such amazing offensive coverage

But outside of Flutter Mane, I wouldn't really consider any other special attackers in this meta to be so strong or oppressive that Beads of Ruin pushes them over the edge. Basically once you remove Flutter Mane, the only other comparably fast and strong special attacker is Iron Bundle which lacks good spread outside of Blizzard on Fangame10-style snow teams. All of the other hard-hitting special attackers are a lot more mid-speed to slow-speed, such as Gholdengo and Sylveon.

I would actually go as far to say that Chien-Pao pushes a lot more mons to near-broken because there's so many good physical attackers with strong priority moves in this meta, like Dragonite and Palafin, and just generally strong hitters like Great Tusk. Also Chi-Yu's defensive counterpart Ting-Lu has a winning matchup into Chi-Yu, whereas Chien-Pao has the winning matchup into its defensive counterpart Wo-Chien which is a much worse mon in general too.

And in an alternate reality where we free Flutter Mane and ban Chi-Yu, I think personally that 100-speed Fire-types are available in abundance and a Flutter Mane + Volcarona core for example could do almost all of the same things but without Beads of Ruin support:

Flutter Mane on the other hand fills such a unique and terribly oppressive role with its Fairy Ghost 135 SpA / 135 Spe offenses + ability to Protosynthesis boost. Nothing else equivalent exists in this meta, and imo the meta has felt a lot more balanced since we removed Flutter Mane.

When we get Home and more powerful special attackers like Landorus-I to play with, that might be a better time to evaluate if Chi-Yu is problematic. But right now I think the right call is to keep Flutter Mane banned and keep playing the meta we have right now.

If anything I think Annihilape is worth looking at next but that's another post for another thread in another time.

 

[Gondre19Wedj]

So how are we feeling about the usage stats? I'm not really surprised about anything tbh. Glad to see Pelipper rose to OU, but also kinda sad that I can't use it in UU where I've been having fun with it.

 

[Arcticblast]

I realize that not every Flutter Mane is going to be Modest, but I'd like to compare Flutter Chi and Protosynthesis Flutter calcs for a moment:

four damage calcs

148+ SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Ruin Palafin-Hero: 246-289 (72.1 - 84.7%)
148+ SpA Protosynthesis Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Palafin-Hero: 238-282 (69.7 - 82.6%)

148+ SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Ruin Iron Hands: 290-344 (64.5 - 76.6%)
148+ SpA Protosynthesis Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Iron Hands: 288-338 (64.1 - 75.2%)

148+ SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ruin Dragonite: 434-512 (112.4 - 132.6%)
148+ SpA Protosynthesis Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 422-500 (109.3 - 129.5%)
(and one fun calc: 148+ SpA Protosynthesis Tera Fairy Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ruin Dragonite: 752-888 (194.8 - 230%))

148+ SpA Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Ruin Chansey: 111-132 (17.3 - 20.5%)
148+ SpA Protosynthesis Flutter Mane Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 109-129 (17 - 20.1%)

Without boosting items, they're... all very close. There's a slight bias towards Ruin, but it's really only by a few hit points each time. Adding in Life Orb makes a difference, but it's still only by a few points each time.

Anyway, now that I have destroyed any ounce of sanity I had left by playing 40 games of Lillikoal, I really do think Flutter is bad for DOU. 135/135 backed by spread and reasonable BP is crazy on its own, the typing works out to make it neutral or better to some of the best priority in the format, Fake Out immunity removes one of the easiest ways to buy time against strong attackers, and it's so EASY to add extra multipliers. Sun or Booster Energy will turn it into either a cannon or a speed demon that beats every Scarfer (607 even beats a ton of stuff in Tailwind). Chi Yu gives it a good chunk of extra damage. If you really want coverage, it gets plenty of coverage too! I think in a long term Flutter meta, we'd start seeing things like Mystical Fire and Thunderbolt make their way into Flutter sets.

Maybe once we know we're not getting any more DLC or anything, Flutter might work out a bit better in a meta with a higher relative power level. Right now, I don't think we have the passive answers we need for Flutter to be a good addition to DOU. We have a few good active answers--Scizor is a permanent threat, Dragonite forces it to avoid Terastallizing, Arcanine is okay if you have good positioning--but right now there's nothing chunky enough to just eat hits from it that can actually have an active board presence.

edit: when I say "passive answers," I mean reliable answers to Flutter that are strong contenders on a team for reasons other than checking Flutter. There's stuff you can use to check it, but these Pokemon don't really end up on teams except for that purpose.

 

[RelicanthPrimal]

Compared to any other special attacker, Flutter Mane is in a league of its own even without Chi-Yu support. Nothing else comes close to a special attacker that:

• Boasts 135 SpA + 135 Spe
• Ghost/Fairy typing which is amazing for "perfect" STAB coverage + natural Fake Out and Extreme Speed Immunity
• and the ability to boost either of its SpA or Spe even further with a Protosynthesis boost

Chi-Yu on the other hand is an amazing special attacker too, and obviously Flutter Mane's ideal partner because of:

• Beads of Ruin, mainly, weakening enemy special defenses
• and just Fire + Fairy spread attacking being such amazing offensive coverage

for this part i think needs note both r very frail physically with flutter being more so, and both can invest in bulk to compensate but would no longer have the great spa or speed tiers anymore. like armarouge, flutter being able to run bulky or fast set is very strong making your opponent guess which it is.

And in an alternate reality where we free Flutter Mane and ban Chi-Yu, I think personally that 100-speed Fire-types are available in abundance and a Flutter Mane + Volcarona core for example could do almost all of the same things but without Beads of Ruin support:

what makes chi yu so insane for flutter, and itself is the aura, fire type its whatever, idt anyone would think any of those replacements would be any good for chi yu. think of it this way flutter chiyu around same spa with aura thats 2.5 worth of ~130 spa dmg, meanwhile with anything else its just 2 worth of ~130spa which is far more manageable.

Flutter Mane on the other hand fills such a unique and terribly oppressive role with its Fairy Ghost 135 SpA / 135 Spe offenses + ability to Protosynthesis boost. Nothing else equivalent exists in this meta, and imo the meta has felt a lot more balanced since we removed Flutter Mane.

without chi aura its great 135 spa isnt pushed to unmanageable lvls imo, its big phys flaw making it lose to prio if not bulk or not have the lethal speed/spa if it goes bulk (and it isnt even that bulky when invested, vs other bulky stuff they will just 2hko u like before but u do less dmg thanks to investing in bulk) gives it enough counterplay to me. It will still be a top mon so trades well easily, but not broken to me

also last thing the proto ability is quite strong, a powerful free boost but sand and rain are very good atm which gives that decent counterplay too

 

[StealElo]

While I personally haven’t played much dou outside of the suspect test I think flutter mane is a melmetal type mon right now. I’m not gonna redundantly post calcs because if you want to see them scroll up, but i think the combination of flutter mane’s massive special attack stat as well as it’s decent coverage options make it overpowered in this meta game. I think once the Pokémon home mons are added back to the game flutter mane will become more balanced as things like hisuian-zoroark will matchup well against it. There’s also the argument that chi-yu is the problem, but I think both of those two are broken in their own right.

I really don’t think unbanning flutter mane will make the meta healthier, I think it will just cause more suspect tests.

 

[GenOne]

for this part i think needs note both r very frail physically with flutter being more so, and both can invest in bulk to compensate but would no longer have the great spa or speed tiers anymore. like armarouge, flutter being able to run bulky or fast set is very strong making your opponent guess which it is.

NOTE: Both Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu are physically frail. You can invest in their bulk if you are ok with losing some Speed or Special Attack.

what makes chi yu so insane for flutter, and itself is the aura, fire type its whatever, idt anyone would think any of those replacements would be any good for chi yu. think of it this way flutter chiyu around same spa with aura thats 2.5 worth of ~130 spa dmg, meanwhile with anything else its just 2 worth of ~130spa which is far more manageable.

Beads of Ruin increasing offensive output by 25% is excellent for both Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu, yes. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

Chi-Yu's Fire type isn't "whatever." Strong spread Fire coverage provides AMAZING synergy with Flutter Mane's spread Fairy offenses since Fire takes care of Steel-types that would otherwise be a nuisance to Flutter Mane. And Fairy + Fire in general just has very few switchins outside of other Fire-types.

My point is that Flutter Mane would have good synergy with any viable Fire-type, Chi-Yu just happens to be a much better option right now than other alternatives.

without chi aura its great 135 spa isnt pushed to unmanageable lvls imo, its big phys flaw making it lose to prio if not bulk or not have the lethal speed/spa if it goes bulk (and it isnt even that bulky when invested, vs other bulky stuff they will just 2hko u like before but u do less dmg thanks to investing in bulk) gives it enough counterplay to me. It will still be a top mon so trades well easily, but not broken to me

The counterplay you've listed here works equally well even with Chi-Yu legal in this format though. Chi-Yu isn't stopping you from spamming priority or strong physical attacks.

And I don't think it's just a matter of damage output that makes Flutter Mane "unmanageable," as if the only problem is it does too much damage and everything else is fine. It's also a matter of its insane speed, offensive typing, Fake Out / Extreme Speed immunity, and ability to boost even further with Protosynthesis. These are all things that still remain true even without Beads of Ruin support.

also last thing the proto ability is quite strong, a powerful free boost but sand and rain are very good atm which gives that decent counterplay too

Opposing weather is only counterplay for teams relying on Torkoal / Sunny Day Murkrow to proc Flutter Mane's Protosynthesis. It also very commonly runs Booster Energy and that is not cancelled out by opposing weather.

 

[qsns]

quick-ish thoughts on why I think flutter is broken

Flutter Mane does not die to priority moves.

It is important to note that for most of this post, I am assuming at least maximum HP investment on the Flutter Mane. I think it tends to be Flutter’s most consistent spread, but there is nothing wrong with max SpA/Speed - that set is extraordinarily threatening, it just requires a different team structure and/or more support.

Given this, the most common priority doesn’t actually OHKO it. For instance, it is pretty trivial to EV for Adamant Palafin-Hero’s CB Jet Punch.

252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin Jet Punch vs. 252 HP / 88 Def Flutter Mane: 265-313 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (100.00% chance to 2HKO after accuracy)

Kingambit also does not have a chance to OHKO this spread with Sucker Punch unless its Supreme Overlord has activated for all 5 other party members. Chien-Pao also does not OHKO with Sucker Punch. And most importantly, it has an immunity to Dragonite’s ESpeed. Scizor is the only priority Pokemon where I would say “yeah, this comfortably beats all Flutter Manes without Tera” - which is a Minor issue considering how often it is paired with Chi-Yu or Torkoal.

This game is one where Flutter Mane lives an Iron Hands Heavy Slam, which is a 120BP super effective move from one of the strongest Pokemon in the format. This is definitely an unusual circumstance and I don’t want to portray it as “normal” - it’s a roll, the Iron Hands wasn’t Attack invested, and the Flutter Mane was bulked out more, but it’s an in-game example of how difficult it actually is to OHKO Flutter Mane.

All of these calcs have been from the physical side, as its SpDef is incredibly solid and it lives basically every special hit with max HP, and usually 2. This is not very often a worry, except in the mirror (Mega Gengar and Marshadow moment).

You are not able to control opposing Flutter Mane, either through utility or outspeeding it.

I just described how priority was not at all a surefire way to prevent Flutter Mane from moving. In addition, it has a natural Fake Out immunity.

So what are the other options? You sure as hell aren’t outspeeding Booster Energy sets without your own boosted Flutter Mane, as the fastest common Scarfer (Chi-Yu) does not outspeed it. It also has the option to boost its Speed using the sun while holding a different item. Tailwind works in game-specific scenarios but Flutter Mane is commonly placed on HO and assuming that you will have TW while your opponent doesn’t is quite optimistic. Trick Room is probably the most viable option, but common setters besides Indeedee are weak to Ghost and can be shut down by either Taunt or Flutter Mane reversing TR (both viable tech options on bulked out HO sets).

Given this, Flutter Mane, nearly always, gets to do what it wants.

Flutter hits very hard

Flutter Mane has too many “multipliers” available to it. I know Chi-Yu is one of them and this sets some people off, but between Booster Energy, LOrb, Specs, Sun, and Beads of Ruin, picking ~2 of these will make sure Flutter Mane is able to OHKO targets that aren’t fully invested and 2HKO the others. Ghost/Fairy are both two of the best offensive types in the game, being able to hit the plethora of Dark-types in the tier and Ghost hitting resists such as Gholdengo. In the top tiers, only Amoonguss and Arcanine are able to comfortably take Flutter Mane’s hits (and sometimes almost switch in!!). Amoonguss gets burnt to a crisp by the common Fire-type teammates and Arcanine is often too passive to either immediately deal with the threat or sufficiently threaten a switchin. I don’t know how much I need to convince people that Flutter Mane hits hard.

The cool thing is - Flutter Mane doesn't even have to take advantage of all of these! You don't have to put Flutter on Sun - it still has all of these qualities elsewhere. I think the Melmetal comparison is apt - there are very few teams that would benefit from dropping Flutter Mane (thinking exactly "support the ape" and Full Trick Room strategies). It doesn't have meaningful weaknesses and takes over a game if given an inch. This is shown by it having a staggering 45% usage in DWCOP pools, even though its ban halfway through caused many to play without it.

Taking into account all of this, you have a splashable offensive Pokemon that is resistant to most forms of board control with a 135 SpA, an obscenely strong STAB combination, and an untouchable speed. This has mostly been said for OU but it’s applicable here - it has Tapu Lele’s strength combined with Dragapult’s speed. This is just not reasonable to deal with given the current pool of Pokemon. Flutter Mane is not invincible but it will be overcentralizing and miserable to deal with for the rest of the format if we unban it.

I was happy for this to get a test down to DOU considering the quickban was more contentious than most but my vote will remain the same for this suspect.

 

[Teals]

I'd like to introduce you all to Dachsbun, aka the ultimate counter to chi-yu x mane lmao

Dachsbun @ Life Orb
Ability: Well-Baked Body
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Tera Blast
- Play Rough
- Helping Hand
- Protect