Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 0: Start Over | Flutter Mane, Tatsugiri Quickbanned

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Let's start over, let's give love their wings
Let's start over, stop fighting 'bout the same old thing
Let's start over, we can't let our good love die
Maybe we can start all over, give love another life


Welcome to Generation 9 DOU!

This thread is meant for the discussion of this brave new world we are entering - Generation 9 Doubles OU. We are very excited to see what comes of another round of Pokemon games and all of the new additions that comes with it. Right off the bat, I just want to clarify a few things.
  • The official Doubles OU format will only include Pokemon that are legally obtainable in Pokemon Scarlet & Violet. If your favorite Pokemon didn't make it in this generation, I’m right there with ya. However, it is Smogon policy to have our official formats be playable on cart without any sort of hacking, so until something changes we will be using the Paldea regional Pokedex.
  • Our banlist will be minimal at first. This does not mean that we will not re-ban some of the problematic Pokemon of generations past, but since we're starting with a fresh generation, we are only banning the classic box legends right off the bat. It is very likely that either a series of council votes or some suspect tests will occur shortly after the release of generation 9 so stay to tuned to this thread for updates.
  • Bear with us while we get our sea legs. This is a brand new generation, and there’s a lot of moving parts. We have a whole new mechanic combined with new Pokémon and abilities. We ask that you all be willing to work with us to make this as smooth a process as it can be so we can all enjoy SV DOU!

This thread is also a thread for general metagame discussion and not just for suspects. I'm taking the opportunity to say that, yes! you can actually post replays, some analyses on strategies, replays... or anything as long as it talks about the metagame! This thread and all subsequent variants of it are the metagame threads of the subforum. While it may be easy to mistake this thread to be purely for suspects, this isn't really the case; np threads are supposed to talk about the general stage of the metagame (hence stage # on the titles) and the suspect posts, while being posts that talk about the present meta, are not the only ones you can post here. Honestly, as long as it's about the metagame, you can post anything.

I'll also make this clear too while I'm at it: we can have threads for specific topics too! If one ever feels that they have something good to talk about that wouldn't really fit in the metagame thread or would be better to be a specific topic on their own, feel free to run it for approval to the mods of this subforum: Yoda2798, Actuarily, Paraplegic, and Arcticblast.
 
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First couple hours into Gen 9 DOU and Snow giving ice types a buff is really good. I want to talk about Iron Bundle in particular. So far it has been one of my favorite abusers of Snow, namely it's choice specs set and helps Abomasnow win the weather matchup since it does really well against all the other weather setters. This is the current set I am running.

Iron Bundle
Item: Choice Specs
Tera: Ice or Water (I prefer Ice)
EVs: 252 SpA/ 4 Def/ 252 Spe
Timid Nature
Moves:
-Hydro Pump
-Freeze Dry
-Blizzard
-Flip Turn/Ice Beam/Icy Wind

Hydro Pump with specs lets it destroy Torkoal and TTar outright while freeze-dry destroys Pelipper. Flip Turn is really just a filler move but Iron Bundle shouldn't need it although you can also opt for Ice Beam for single target damage or Icy Wind if you just want speed control. Specs Blizzard goes crazy coming off a 120 SpA.

On a side note, I think Amoonguss is preferable to Brute Bonnet just for better defensive typing with what's available right now as far as Spore users goes but both have their qualities. Brute Bonnet does have Sucker Punch which can be useful in some matchups if you need a Spore user that has some bulk but still has decent firepower. I just think Amoonguss is a better fit for snow teams as a support.

On the topic of weather, Sun Teams are going to especially be interesting with protosynthesis users such Great Tusk, Roaring Moon, and Flutter Mane all being incredible abusers of it. (Although for all I know one of them could just get banned real quick) Although there doesn't seem to be that many choices for chlorophyll abusers with Hisuian Lilligant's absence being noticeable (until transfers are available). Scovillain is ok for now and Grass/Fire is a weird typing but it's still early.

These are just some of my early impressions so far. Just wanted to get the ball rolling on discussion.
 
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I am starting to love Chein-Pao, it's faster than Weavile, stronger than Weavile, bulkier than Weavile, etc. I think Chein-Pao is going to be a great addition to SV Doubles if you can pair it in snow thanks to the new buff to ice types, it can also hold 1 of 2 items in my opinion, Life Orb or Sitrus Berry. This is the current set I am running to get the most out of it

Chien-Pao @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: (Any type you want)
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Icicle Crash
- Sacred Sword
- Sucker Punch
 
Just gonna put this here first, I personally think that Tatsugiri + Dondozo + Flamigo is unhealthy for the metagame and should be subjected to scrutiny for a potential quickban, will make a more detailed post on this tomorrow
Please do, I have some replays too if needed.
 
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I haven't made any serious pushes yet but there's a few Mons that are standing out to me:

-Flutter Mane I think is on everyone's minds. I just want to highlight that it gets Imprison and Trick Room which lets you shut down both Trick Room and opposing Flutter Mane. I think its something more to keep in mind as the meta settles.
-The only Pokemon to get Expanding Force is Armarouge and when coupled with Indeedee it doesn't seem so bad. Psychic/Fire is a good STAB combo, and you also have access to Trick Room and Ally Switch- the latter of which helps a good deal with positioning. I know the hype train going into Scarlet/Violet was on Ceruledge, but I think Armarouge has an interesting edge here.
-Iron Hands is a menace. That Fake Out is far too strong, and Pinchurchin can fit on Trick Room. While that seems funny- and as someone who brought I silly Pinchurchin/Arctovolt team to early gen tours last gen- I guarantee you I'm in on the joke. But without it powering up the Iron mons, its also worth noting that it gets Memento, Spikes, and Zing Zap which can flinch foes under Trick Room.
-Costar is a horrifying ability with a lot of potential for abuse. I think the sushi fish is just the tip of the ice berg with it, there's a lot of room for some weirder tech for those with the patience to find it. I think on its own that its unhealthy and potentially uncompetitive as it can capitalize on any decent physical sweeper to keep a sweep going with two great STABs. I'm definitely not just saying that because I lost to it on ladder. I did, but I assure you that's not why I think its bad.

Been busy with work and well playing the game to get deeper than I have but I look forward to seeing the meta settle and hopefully having fun with it!
 
I'll make a metagame discussion post after this, but would like to get my thoughts out on what should be absolutely be quickbanned!


Gothitelle - #576 - Serebii.net Pokédex



Gothitelle enables all the stupid Pokemon more than anything else. It is easier than ever to flowchart with this Pokemon. Nothing is surviving Helping Hand + a Flutter Mane STAB, it is incredibly hard to position around Fake out + Scarf Chi-Yu pins, it sets up TR for Torkoal Eruptions, and it does all this while preventing the opponent from switching. This Pokemon is always game-warping when it comes on the field, provides momentum and immediate power, and allows you to pick apart teams for the many speedy Pokemon to clean up late game. Goth still gets Hypnosis, by the way - and we do not have any Misty Terrain setters! It is extremely hard to see what is actually broken when Gothitelle can dial every threat up to 11.

That's it for now! I think the metagame has a decent amount of tools to deal with Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu, especially the latter. People are figuring out structures that beat the Day 1 Brainless Clicker sun, mostly involving Ting-Lu, Tyranitar, and strong speed control options. While I would like Flutter banned, I am totally fine seeing it go to a suspect or a second round of quickbanning.
 
First time I'm getting into competitive Pokémon, since there are no sample teams to leech off of, I decided to build my own. For what it's worth I'm pretty happy with how it's going in a "I have no idea what I'm doing" sort of sense. I would love some advice.
for Grafaiai I think you should run fling over switcheroo, since you are already running knock off you can force any pokemon to hold the Iron Ball
 
+1 for quick banning Shadow Tag. Gothitelle was bad for the metagame in SS and it's just as bad in SV.

Everything else I think it's worth giving some time for the meta to settle first - doubles metas always start out hyper offensive while ppl build the low-hanging fruit HO builds, then the meta progressively becomes more balanced as people figure out how to build in more defensive options to check the hyper offensive threats.

A couple mons are being talked about right now:
  • Flutter Mane could be a problem but deserves time for the meta to settle. Fast, strong, absurd STAB coverage in Ghost/Fairy, and can be boosted with sun and Chi-Yu support. It's also frail af defensively and drops easily to a strong physical priority move, or to any bulky physical attacker that can live long enough to trade with it.

  • Chi-Yu is an enabler of all strong special attackers with Ruinous Beads (-SpD aura) and could end up being a force that makes stuff like Flutter Man too powerful for the meta. And while it also is a bit physically frail, it has more bulk than FM and I've also seen max HP Chi-Yus run on Trick Room to support stuff like Expanding Force Armourouge and Sylveon.

  • Dondozo is a bit overhyped imo. Yes a +2 omnibooster is strong, and yes there's the gimmick where you kill lvl 1 Tatsuguri with endure + side pivot + black sludge so that you can bring in another mon next turn. And yes, the mon could be a Costar Flamigo which also gets the boost. But the gimmick isn't without counterplay options; you can redirect the lead that tries to side pivot the Tatsuguri. You can clear smog the Dondozo. Getting TR up makes these mons more managable too. Idk, I'm not saying Dondozo isn't really strong, but I feel any time I bring it to a room tour or even a low ladder game, more opponents than not have already figured out CTs they can fit on their teams reasonably easily.

  • Houndstone is a strong af endgame killer with Last Respects, but it can only target one mon at a time, can be intimidated, and still struggles into bulky Dark-types like Ting-Lu or even TTar which are a dime a dozen in this meta. Might be a problem, but I say let the metagame marinade for a bit on this one.

  • Annihilape has an extremely strong move in Rage Fist that can snowball out of control. And unlike Houndstone, Annihilape has the ability to stick around on the field for a while with bulky sets that make use of Bulk Up + Drain Punch + psychicseed. But I have yet to see any replays where Annihilape is unstoppable or evidently broken/unhealthy/etc.

  • Ting-Lu has absurd Melmetal-tier bulk as well as formidable offenses. Very powerful mon, but I would also argue a very welcome defensive tool given it is the only thing that offers a nerf to the Chi-Yu nuke squads running around.
 
shadow tag needs to be quickbanned, it's impossible to get a read on the meta when goth takes over games. fake out + shadow tag is peak toxic gameplay.
+1
The ability to remove a fundamental part of the game is and always will be, inherently broken (on a good pokemon sorry dugtrio).

  • Flutter Mane could be a problem but deserves time for the meta to settle. Fast, strong, absurd STAB coverage in Ghost/Fairy, and can be boosted with sun and Chi-Yu support. It's also frail af defensively and drops easily to a strong physical priority move, or to any bulky physical attacker that can live long enough to trade with it.

I think it's also one of the only things keeping a lot of pokemon at bay currently. Though I lean to the side of ban already, I do agree that I think this particular case needs some time and development to occur


  • Chi-Yu is an enabler of all strong special attackers with Ruinous Beads (-SpD aura) and could end up being a force that makes stuff like Flutter Man too powerful for the meta. And while it also is a bit physically frail, it has more bulk than FM and I've also seen max HP Chi-Yus run on Trick Room to support stuff like Expanding Force Armourouge and Sylveon.

Another force in the sun core, again, I think this is a very good mon in CURRENT meta, but given the history of doubles after some development I can see this mon falling from grace fairly quickly do the lack of bulk. After the initial use of kill buttons at the start of gens people will find and use a lot bulkier teams, in metas like that Pokemon like Chi-Yu generally fall off rather quickly. Wouldn't touch this one just yet.

  • Dondozo is a bit overhyped imo. Yes a +2 omnibooster is strong, and yes there's the gimmick where you kill lvl 1 Tatsuguri with endure + side pivot + black sludge so that you can bring in another mon next turn. And yes, the mon could be a Costar Flamigo which also gets the boost. But the gimmick isn't without counterplay options; you can redirect the lead that tries to side pivot the Tatsuguri. You can clear smog the Dondozo. Getting TR up makes these mons more managable too. Idk, I'm not saying Dondozo isn't really strong, but I feel any time I bring it to a room tour or even a low ladder game, more opponents than not have already figured out CTs they can fit on their teams reasonably easily.

  • Annihilape has an extremely strong move in Rage Fist that can snowball out of control. And unlike Houndstone, Annihilape has the ability to stick around on the field for a while with bulky sets that make use of Bulk Up + Drain Punch + psychicseed. But I have yet to see any replays where Annihilape is unstoppable or evidently broken/unhealthy/etc.

Ladder gimmicks, nothing more nothing less in my opinion. Still in the very very early stages of the meta game and people haven't remembered Azumarill exists and can now actively change it's type ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
rip gen 8

Introduction

Hello all, just here to share some of my thoughts on the current "meta" and some of the new mons/moves that were added in gen 9. I still miss gen 8, but after playing the new gen for a bit, it's definitely very fun and a good game in it's own way.

Meta Observations

A lot of strong offensive powerhouses were added in gen 9 like Flutter Mane, Chi-Yu, Roaring Moon, Slither Wing, and so on, with a lot of defensive options being taken away, like a lot of mons losing Toxic and recovery moves having their PP nerfed, along with a lot of good defensive pieces being removed from the game as well, such as Tapu Fini and Incineroar. Based on these factors, you would be forgiven for assuming hyper offense teams making use of the several new offensive threats that would be banned in any other gen without a second thought would dominate the meta, which would be partially correct. The combination of Chi-Yu and Flutter Mane make up a common offensive pairing that utterly decimates the vast majority of Pokémon in the tier by using their powerful spread moves in Dazzling Gleam and Heat Wave boosted by Chi-Yu's "Beads of Ruin" ability, lowering the Special Defense of it's opponents.

These offensive teams do not go unanswered however, and it would be incorrect to say that more balanced teams are not also usable. Strong defensive pieces like Ting-Lu and Arcanine give you ways to beat the pairing of Chi-Yu and Flutter Mane more consistently, and Pokémon like Glimmora, Gyarados, and Brute Bonnet also give bulkier teams ways of spreading damage through either direct breaking power or through slowly chipping the opponent with Hazards. While disruption options like Follow Me and Fake Out have lost a good amount of their most common users from the last generation, Gothitelle and Amoonguss still slot very nicely onto these bulkier team styles and give the team ways to more easily pivot around the opponent and work towards late game wincons such as Dragon Dance Gyarados, Extreme Speed Dragonite and Sucker Punch Brute Bonnet.

Speaking of moves that have lost a lot of viable users, Tailwind and Trick Room have also received pretty sizeable indirect nerfs. All of the best users of Tailwind and Trick Room from the last generation have been removed from the game, meaning options for speed control are much more limited, and are seeing less use overall. Roaring Moon is by far the best Tailwind option, with a respectable speed stat and threatening offenses, especially when boosted by Protosynthesis. Salamence is also a decent option, essentially functioning as a bulkier, less offensive version of Roaring Moon. Scizor has also proven itself as a surprisingly decent user of the move. While not particularly fast, it has a great defensive typing and strong priority with Technician-boosted Bullet Punch. It also has slow U-Turn, allowing it's frailer teammates to enter the field without taking damage. As for Trick Room, Gothitelle is easily the best user with more niche options like Mimikyu and Scream Tail also being usable.

On the Radar
stealing this from the OU thread

Obviously, I cannot say for certain what is in consideration for a quickban/suspect, as I am not on the DOU council and have no authority to decide that, but this is a list of Pokémon that I would personally consider for a suspect based on consensus and my own personal experience with the Pokémon.

Flutter Mane :flutter mane: / Chi-Yu :chi-yu:
It's pretty debatable which one of these Pokémon is the problem in the Flutter Mane + Chi-Yu pairing, but it's blatantly obvious something needs to be done about one or both of them. Flutter Mane can be considered unhealthy for the metagame because of how demanding it is to check in the builder. It's a very difficult Pokémon to deal with due to it's blazing speed and devastating damage output to the point where there's only a select few Pokémon able to consistently check it. It also can easily remove nearly all sources of speed control currently in the game, making Tailwind or Trick Room harder to use against it. Due to Flutter Mane's near unrivaled damage output and the fact that it's near impossible to outspeed it naturally (especially in sun), Your main options for counterplay against it being Pokémon like Ting-Lu and Arcanine which can live it's attacks and OHKO back, and priority moves that can OHKO Flutter Mane before it can attack, like Palafin's Jet Punch and Brute Bonnet's Sucker Punch. The problem with this being it could be considered rather unreasonable to expect people to run these Pokémon on every team just to deal with Flutter Mane, and such requirements can restrict the teams that can be used in a way that could be considered unhealthy.

On the flipside, Chi-Yu could also be considered unhealthy because of it's ability to enable all special attackers it happens to be paired with while also dealing amazing personal damage. Chi-Yu also has perfect synergy with sun teams, as it can further boost any special attacking Protosynthesis users it may be paired with (which at the moment is basically just Flutter Mane) while it's own Heat Waves are further boosted by Drought. Chi-Yu already has some decent non-Flutter Mane partners, like Sylveon for example. Chi-Yu has significantly more counterplay on it's own however. It's not particularly fast or bulky (base 100 speed in this meta is pretty much the baseline) meaning pretty much anything that outspeeds it can OHKO it. It also is not ghost type like Flutter Mane, meaning it is vulnerable to Normal-type priority such as Gothitelle's Fake Out and Dragonite's Extreme Speed. As I said, it's debatable whether or not Chi-Yu or Flutter Mane is the problem, but to give my own opinion on it, I think Flutter Mane makes more sense to ban. Chi-Yu has much more counterplay without Flutter Mane than Flutter Mane has without Chi-Yu. A lot of Chi-Yu's weaknesses are covered by Flutter Mane while Chi-Yu simply acts as an amplifier for it while providing some of it's own personal damage. Without Flutter Mane in the meta, I believe that Chi-Yu will become much less problematic and easier to manage, but I could obviously be wrong as I am not a Psychic-type and cannot see into the future.

Shadow Tag :gothitelle: :gothorita:

Shadow Tag is an ability that is considered broken by many players at the time of writing this. In a meta as offensive as this one, Shadow Tag users like Gothitelle in combination with strong offensive threats can lead to unavoidable pins and warp the game in a way that could be considered unhealthy and broken. I think other posts explain why Shadow Tag, and specifically Gothitelle is broken way better than I can, so I will simply quote some of the other Shadow Tag posts:

Gothitelle enables all the stupid Pokemon more than anything else. It is easier than ever to flowchart with this Pokemon. Nothing is surviving Helping Hand + a Flutter Mane STAB, it is incredibly hard to position around Fake out + Scarf Chi-Yu pins, it sets up TR for Torkoal Eruptions, and it does all this while preventing the opponent from switching. This Pokemon is always game-warping when it comes on the field, provides momentum and immediate power, and allows you to pick apart teams for the many speedy Pokemon to clean up late game. Goth still gets Hypnosis, by the way - and we do not have any Misty Terrain setters! It is extremely hard to see what is actually broken when Gothitelle can dial every threat up to 11.


shadow tag needs to be quickbanned, it's impossible to get a read on the meta when goth takes over games. fake out + shadow tag is peak toxic gameplay.

In my opinion, +1 to quickban Shadow Tag. From my experience playing with it, it doesn't feel terribly broken, but in a meta with 10+ mons that would be banned in any other generation that's really not saying much, and I 100% agree that Shadow Tag has a net negative impact on the tier. I do think that Shadow Tag specifically should be banned and not Gothitelle though, which is an important distinction to make. Gothitelle itself has a fairly healthy impact, being one of the best Trick Room users and having access to Fake Out which is also in short supply. It's just Shadow Tag specifically which makes it broken and unhealthy.

Houndstone :houndstone:

Houndstone itself is not broken, its stats are actually pretty bad. It's simply made broken from it's access to what is currently it's signature move: Last Respects. Last Respects is a 50 base power move that grows in base power by 50 for every fainted ally. This makes Houndstone an insane late game cleaner on Sand teams. an up to 300 base power Ghost-type move with great neutral coverage by virtue of it's typing is pretty obviously unfair and should be banned. I personally only think the move is broken though, Houndstone itself is fine, it's honestly not even good to be completely honest.

Ting-Lu :ting lu:

I don't personally think this Pokémon is broken, but I felt like it at least deserves a mention here as it's come up in the "what do we ban" discussion a few times. Ting-Lu on the surface actually has quite a positive impact. It's one of the few "consistent" checks to the Chi-Yu + Flutter Mane duo which has been terrorizing the meta, but has counterplay in strong fighting and grass types that are strong enough to deal good damage to it despite it's ability, like Iron Hands and Brute Bonnett for example. The problem with Ting-Lu is, it does in fact counter Flutter Mane + Chi-Yu offense... but it also counters everything else. Balance struggles to kill it, especially since a ton of Pokémon lost toxic this generation. It spams Earthquake into Sun teams, which basically only have Brute Bonnet and Slither Wing as resists. Trick Room teams gets chipped down by Ruination and Earthquake until it's teammates can clean up, and Ting-Lu itself actually appreciates Trick Room more than anything, the only real team style Ting-Lu struggles with is Hazard Stack teams, which it also slots very nicely into as hazards accentuate it's damage output which would otherwise be mediocre. I personally don't think it's broken however. It's damage output is manageable, especially if you have Intimidate Pokémon like Arcanine and Gyarados, and a good amount of Pokémon hit Ting-Lu for massive damage, like Gyarados, Chien-Pao, Brute Bonnett, Iron Hands, the list goes on. While Ting-Lu absolutely could end up being problematic after bans start happening, but I feel it's in a quite balanced spot right now.

That's just about everything other than Dondozo, which I consider pretty much a gimmick by now and don't feel like writing about it.

My Full Opinion on Generation 9

I think gen 9 is extremely fun. I initially thought the meta would be unbalanced and filled with hyper offense, but now that people are starting to figure out what mons work as good defensive pieces in the tier, balance and hazard stack teams have increased in usage, which are team styles I am extremely fond of. I do miss generation 8 a lot, it's the first generation I played and easily my favorite meta out of all DOU formats that currently exist in terms of how balanced it is, but gen 9 has been the most fun I've had playing Pokémon in a long time, and I'm excited to see how the meta develops from here!
 
I don't think shadow tag should be banned. Shadow tag is an incredibly good ability but I think it's relatively healthy. Shadow tag as an ability rewards the better player. You can't just mindlessly swap in goth and have it work out. You need to have a better understanding of board states. You could trap and kill something and the opp immediately sends in something that can freely set up and gain momentum. Shadow tag benefits the player with the better team and the player that positions smarter. Goth as a trapper excels due to the vast amount of strong support moves at its disposal, but what really pushes it over the edge are pivots like incineroar that can repeatedly come in and weaken threats so you can set up easier. The only relevant parting shot pokemon is grimmsnarl which doesn't excel at that role as it doesn't have intimidate.

As the meta is new, it is a hyper offensive meta. Gothitelle is far more dangerous against balance teams as it can neutralize defensive walls by tricking choice items. In the current state of the meta, it struggles to perform at its best. For these reasons I think shadow tag and goth should stay legal
 
I'm honestly not sure how broken Gothitelle is, but I think it would be good if the council voted on it as soon as possible, since it has a very centralizing effect on the metagame and the uncertainty about its future makes it hard to prepare teams for Wcop.
 
I'm still trying to make sense of Gen 9, but will share some initial thoughts:

--First, I'm also not sure Goth is more broken than other stuff out there currently, though she is very good. However, it's pretty clear (by comments, likes, etc.) that most of the community wants Goth gone, so let's get rid of her quick. I don't think revisiting Stag would be an efficient use of a suspect, as we all know what Goth does.

--Re Dondozo spam, I say it should also get the quick boot--all stats x2 on a (non-hittable) switch in is not healthy. Yes, there is some counter play, but to have to always carry it is very limiting for a lousy gimmick. Who wants to deal with this garbage months or years down the road.

--NotIPrimRose made some really incisive observations about the current Meta. There really are 10+ mons/abilities that would get banned in any other gen. Speed control options are terrible. The result is a lot more left up to luck/chance, rather than skill (which it should be noted is a prime reason for banning things). Yes, it's only been a week, but currently most of the top 20 on the Gen 9 DOU ladder are under 80% GXE (for Gen 7 DOU, no one in the top 12 is even under 92.5%). It would be pretty rough to do a normal suspect under those conditions.

--Given the situation noted above, I am not really sure where we start with suspects. Beginning to suspect individual mons at this early stage leaves in place the overarching systems and takes attention away from them (it's like painting the walls of a house before you decide whether the structure is sound or needs to be demolished). The thing that is really rough with Protosynthesis/Quark Drive is that they stack in massive and unpredictable ways. We are used to an item boosting one stat, but here with a switch you could get an Attack/Special Attack boost, plus an item boost, or a speed boost plus an item boost. Terrastrialization adds yet another stacked boost, so suddenly you can have a super powerful, super fast move that is extremely difficult to prepare for. Many of the new mons have really ridiculous stats as well. The stat totals can be deceptive because, in the past, most mons with high stats typically wasted much of it in a stat they weren't using (either attack or special attack) and/or had a bad move pool, but a lot of these new mons seem very well optimized. The 'ruining" mons are also very disruptive. Sure, we had Intimidate before, but it was a one shot deal (you could switch in mons to it that wouldn't automatically get Intimidated) and there were abilities like Defiant/Competitive that punished Intimidate users. I'd suggest we should at least consider suspecting these larger potentially broken systems (i.e., PS/QD, Ruin abilities and Terrasrialization) before we go after individual Pokemon (with the exception of Goth and Dondozo).
 
I mostly play VGC, but since that isn't really up and running yet on Showdown, I've been trying out some DOU. I'm having trouble figuring out how to get going. Idk why, but I'm having a lot of trouble building a team rn. I could use some help.

After a couple of attempts at starting, I have a team comprised of:
Pelipper
Barraskewda
Raichu
Arcanine
Gogoat
Indeedee-F

It doesn't feel great though. Any help would be appreciated

Bad Rain (pokepast.es)

Also included is a replay of Gogoat doing what I want it to. He's been the only super consistent guy in the 5 games I've played with this team.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1721265466

-----

So, I said screw it and put 3 swift swim mons on a rain team and, uh, it's been working. At least, it's been working at low ladder where I usually am cause I'm not very good. But it's heckin fun. I've beaten Sun and Snow with this team

Here is the team if you wanna try it or want to give some feedback.

Swift Swim go Brrr (pokepast.es)

And here is a replay against a team with triple electric types. This was a fun game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1721334404

Arctic edit: Double posting is against the rules, please don't do that!
 
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Hey everyone, want to give some updates regarding us navigating the new generation.

First want to talk about the role of quickbans. The point of quickbans is to allow council to quickly remove obviously broken elements in order to allow the metagame to settle so that we can identify possibly broken elements to be suspected. Doubles is obviously very mechanically different than singles, and these differences lead to the bar for something to be considered broken for the metagame to be quite higher. This results in a lot more stuff being banned in singles than doubles, and so while singles has already banned multiple Pokémon, doubles is going to be more careful. Looking at precedent, quickbans in Doubles OU have been used to ban two types of elements:

1. Previously banned elements that have been reintroduced in a new metagame and deemed unhealthy (such as Jirachi and Marshadow being quickbanned after being re-released in the Crown Tundra DLC)
2. Obviously broken elements due to having game breaking stats or abilities (such as Zygarde-C and Magearna when introduced in generation 7.)

That being said, we believe the best path forward is clear. There will be two rounds of quickban votes, with the first being held this Saturday the 26th, and the second being held next Saturday December the 3rd. In the first round of votes, we will only be voting on previously banned elements, and in the second, we will be voting on new elements as well as re-voting on anything that wasn’t banned in the first round.

That means in the first round of votes, the items that will be eligible to be banned are shadow tag and swagger. After the first round of council votes, we will evaluate the meta and posts on this thread to identify any other broken elements to be eligible for quickban in the second round of council votes. Primarily the goal is to suspect new elements rather than quickban, but if any are deemed obviously broken then they do need to be taken care of by council quickbans.
 
From my experience so far, no one pokemon or playstyle has seemed broken. It's a fun meta for now. I'm still running around with the same triple swift swim team above and am having a lot of fun. I'm not a great player, so I am by no means a voice of reason when it comes to brokeness. This team has beaten snow, sun, and trick room. I haven't run into sand yet, but from my experience playing against sun, I do think rain could outplay and vice versa. I'm very curious what the council will discuss during the vote on Dec. 3. I imagine tera will be in the discussion, but I'm very curious about anything else cause I just don't know what might be there.

Edit:
Oh, dondozo might be something to look at. I'm not totally sure though. I was able to beat a dozo team with tera grass on one of my swift swim mons and fake out with raichu, but I imagine there could be some difficulty dealing with that thing's double omni boost. I don't think its broken, but maybe worth discussion.
 
Hello again! You may have noticed that I didn't mention Terastallization in my last post while talking about potentially banworthy things in the metagame. The reason being I forgot I felt that the topic deserved it's own post, as I plan to go into a lot of detail here. I don't have much else to say here, let's get into the actual post.

Terastallization is this generation's gimmick, and it allows you to change the type of one of your Pokémon every battle. This gimmick has no inherent drawbacks such as requiring an item slot, and unlike Mega Evolutions and Z Moves, you can Terastallize any of your Pokémon and not just one designated Tera Pokémon. This makes Terastallization similar to Dynamax in the sense that you can use it on different Pokémon depending on what matches up best into your opponent. Its applications are equally diverse, with it being a great offensive and defensive tool. Additionally, you can Terastallize into a type you already have to receive a STAB bonus of 2x. This could be considered unhealthy due to the inherent unpredictability and variance that comes with allowing any Pokémon to be any type. Giving any Pokémon adaptability is also quite a worrying thought considering all of the monstrous offensive powerhouses added this generation. The purpose of this post is to give some of my own opinions on Terastallization and some cool ways I believe it could be used.


Prominent Users


This format has been out for a week at the time of writing this, so it's pretty early to say what the best users of Terastallization are yet, as several applications of it have most likely gone undiscovered at this point in time. Despite this, I'll still take this time to highlight some offensive and defensive uses of Terastallization that stand out to me.

Offensive Uses


Flutter Mane

:xy/flutter mane:

Flutter Mane is by far the most broken offensive user of Terastallization. Being able to Terastallize into a pure Fairy type to power up your already very strong Dazzling Gleams as well as remove your weakness to Ghost-type attacks for the mirror is insane on a Pokémon with Flutter Mane's stats. I don't think Terastallization is the problem here, however. Flutter Mane is an extremely good user of it, but that's moreso because Flutter Mane is broken rather than the gimmick itself being problematic.
Chi-Yu
:xy/chi yu:

Chi-Yu is the only other debatably broken user of Terastallization. Tera fire Heat Wave hits extremely hard, especially when boosted by Torkoal's Drought on the Sun teams it frequently finds itself on. Removing its Dark typing also has some niche defensive applications, like being able to take Fighting-type attacks more easily. Chi-Yu is undeniably an amazing example of an offensive Terastallization user, but Terastallization doesn't fix any of Chi-Yu's flaws as a pokemon, it just boosts it's already insane damage output, which is a common theme with using Terastallization to boost a type you already have.
Dragonite
:xy/dragonite:

Dragonite is my personal favorite offensive use of Terastallization. Tera normal Extreme Speed hits extremely hard for a priority move, making it an insane late game sweeper allowing it to ignore all current speed control active. Dragonite also has great offensive coverage outside of Extreme Speed, making it a great offensive asset overall. You don't even really need to run speed on it because of Extreme Speed's high priority bracket, allowing you to invest more in bulk and allow Dragonite to work in and out of Trick Room. While I personally think this set is amazing, it's not without counterplay. You essentially don't have a tera Pokémon if your opponent has means of blocking priority, and you're giving up your great defensive typing in Flying/Dragon for pure Normal, meaning you also lose your Earthquake immunity.
Brute Bonnet
:xy/Brute Bonnet:

Brute Bonnet is interesting because it's Terastallization options also have utility defensively. There are the obvious options of Grass and Dark to power up it's stabs, but it can also run Tera Fighting. Fighting resists nearly all of it's natural weaknesses and gives you a stronger Close Combat, which is nice in this format because of the amount of Dark-types.
Slither Wing
:xy/slither wing:

Slither Wing has some interesting options for offensive Terastallization. Again, the obvious options of Bug for strong First Impressions and U-Turns and Fighting to power up Close Combat are still there, but it also has more interesting options like Fire on Sun teams to boost Flare Blitz to insane levels and Ghost with Tera Blast, which gives you unresisted Ghost/Fighting coverage (though admittedly at that point you're most likely better off using Annihilape outside of Sun teams)


Defensive Uses

Glimmora

:xy/glimmora:

Glimmora is the premier Hazard Stack Pokémon in SV DOU. It can set hazards without actually having to waste turns setting them with it's ability Toxic Debris. It has a 4x weakness to Ground however, which is a problem in this meta because Earthquake finds itself on nearly every team. Tera Flying can be used to give yourself an Earthquake immunity to not only give yourself a partner to click Earthquake next to, but are also immune to opposing Ground-type attacks, which can catch opponents off guard and allow it to set more layers of Spikes.
Wo Chien
:xy/wo chien:

Wo-Chien is a fairly niche pick in the current meta, but it has it's uses. Specifically Tera Water with Leech Seed. Water doesn't have much synergy with it's original typing of Grass/Dark, Water is just a solid defensive typing that lets it survive longer to click it's support moves. It functions pretty similarly to support Tapu Fini sets from the last generation and fits very nicely on hazard centric teams.
Arcanine
:xy/arcanine:

Arcanine's main defensive Tera options are Water and Grass. Grass is nice to hit Ground, Rock, and Water-types with Tera Blast and also gives you an Earthquake resist. Water also resists or is at least neutral to a lot of Arcanine's natural weaknesses as a pure Fire-type. Water/Fire coverage is also extremely good neutral coverage on most things. Arcanine isn't a Pokémon you want to Terastallize in a lot of matchups, but it's nice that it has such solid options if it does find itself in a situation where it needs to Terastallize for whatever reason.
Gothitelle

:xy/gothitelle:

Gothitelle isn't a Pokémon that you'll see Terastallize very often, but it does have some decent options. Tera Fairy allows Gothitelle to resist most moves that it would otherwise be weak to (other than Ghost-type attacks which become neutral) making it a nice defensive option. Tera Normal is an option that allows it to more easily sponge hits from Flutter Mane, which is very valuable. Gothitelle has some respectable Terastallization options, but you generally don't want to waste Terastallization on a Pokémon as passive as Gothitelle.
Gyarados
:xy/gyarados:

Gyarados's Water/Flying typing synergizes perfectly with Ground type Tera, and has offensive and defensive utility. Defensively, you resist everything that Gyarados would otherwise be weak to, and offensively your Earthquakes hit that much harder, which Dragon Dance sets greatly appreciate. Gyarados is a great candidate for Terastallization in most matchups, and has proven itself to be one of the best uses of the gimmick.

Final Thoughts

As for my full thoughts on Terastallization, I believe it's a good, healthy addition to the meta and adds a new dimension to the game that's really interesting to explore both in teambuilding and gameplay. You could argue that Terastallization causes unnecessary variance due to the fact that any pokemon can become any type, but I don't think this is the case. I would actually argue that Terastallization rewards good, creative teambuilding. If I use Tera Grass Arcanine to beat my opponent's Ting-Lu for example, I not only had to have saved my Terastallization up until that point in order to use it to beat my opponent's Pokémon, but i also had to have intentionally chosen that tera type in the builder to deal with that specific Pokémon while being aware of the opportunity cost that comes with that. Personally, I think that's an extremely healthy and balanced dimension to add to the game. There are some Pokémon that are broken with Terastallization, like Flutter Mane and debatably Chi-Yu, but those Pokémon are largely broken because of outside factors unrelated to Terastallization. Like, Flutter Mane would still be broken regardless of whether or not it could Terastallize. But that's just my opinion, which ultimately probably doesn't really matter, but I thought i would share it anyway. Alright, that's all I have to say, have a damn good day (or night, idk when you're reading this) :D
 
That means in the first round of votes, the items that will be eligible to be banned are shadow tag and swagger.

Are people actually running Swagger? It was problematic in SM and SS because you could use it in conjunction with Misty Terrain to prevent Swagger from confusing your mon, but we don't have any Misty Terrain setters rn.

Genuinely just wondering, if there's a broken Swagger strat I'm just not aware of pls let me know lol.

edit: bang oth
 
Are people actually running Swagger? It was problematic in SM and SS because you could use it in conjunction with Misty Terrain to prevent Swagger from confusing your mon, but we don't have any Misty Terrain setters rn.

Genuinely just wondering, if there's a broken Swagger strat I'm just not aware of pls let me know lol.

edit: bang oth
I haven't run into anything in my limited time on the ladder. This may be something that could be revisited when Home becomes compatible.
 
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