Metagame NP: Stage 3 - Hand of Blood (New NP thread Post #15)

[Rabia]

​

Following our recent council vote, Grimmsnarl is being suspect tested after a close 5/3 vote on whether to quickban it or not!

Grimmsnarl has been making waves over the past 1.5 weeks thanks to its Bulk Up sets. With Bulk Up, Grimmsnarl is able to use common foes like Sandaconda, Rotom locked into Shadow Ball, and Drifblim as setup fodder. Tera Steel further constrains counterplay, as common countermeasures like Qwilfish, Hisuian Sneasel, and Tera Fairy Mesprit become helpless against it. These sets are super versatile too: Grimmsnarl can be offensive or defensive; Grimmsnarl can have Substitute or Rest as its last move; Grimmsnarl can hold off on using Tera Steel or burn it immediately against a threat.

Bulk Up sets aren't the only threatening variant, though. Wallbreaking sets make great use of how potent Grimmsnarl's STAB coverage is and how few Steel-types NU has. Whether its Choice Band or three attacks + Parting Shot, defensive switch-ins are limited almost exclusively to Sandaconda, Intimidate Qwilfish, and... Carbink? It's pretty bleak.

Grimmsnarl's not without negatives, though. Bulky sets do take a bit to get going and are quite reliant on Tera Steel to avoid being revenge killed because of their poor Speed, and although offensive sets can run Sucker Punch to circumvent this, they're still quite slow in comparison to other offensive foes in the tier. If a teammate has used Terastallization already, Grimmsnarl's sweeping potential is greatly hampered because the pool of revenge killers is just so much greater than it would be otherwise. Offensive sets also struggle with quite middling bulk, which makes them reliant on teammate support to consistently get onto the field.

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 78 GXE will suffice. **It is now 78 GXE**

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be [NUGS]. For example, I may sign up with the username [NUGS] Rabia.
• Because this suspect test is happening alongside the ladder tournament, we're allowing ladder tour accounts to be used if you meet suspect test requirements! In addition, anyone that qualifies for playoffs automatically gets suspect voting permission too.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular NU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The aspect being tested, Grimmsnarl, will be allowed on ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The suspect test will last until Sunday, July 23rd, 11:59 PM GMT -4, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

 

[Rabia]

this will be locked for 24 hours to let people formulate initial thoughts

e: freed

 

[Rabia]

• Because this suspect test is happening alongside the ladder tournament, we're allowing ladder tour accounts to be used if you meet suspect test requirements! In addition, anyone that qualifies for playoffs automatically gets suspect voting permission too.

make sure u read this bullet btw I don't wanna have people thinking they need to ladder twice... (ladder tour will go up later today)

 

[Rabia]

Thread is unlocked now, so I'll make a post explaining why I voted to ban Grimmsnarl in our last suspect test.

Grimmsnarl is very broken. Bulk Up sets have too easy a time taking over games because Tera Steel covers up just about every possible revenge killer to them. Whether you run Substitute or Rest ends up being moot: you prevent status from ever being an issue and gain a ton of leverage around passive foes like Sandaconda, Tera Fairy Umbreon, and Drifblim. The versatility only adds to this conundrum, as more offensive Bulk Up variants with Sucker Punch are very viable too and can more easily muscle past certain physical walls that may otherwise require you to risk critical hits against. Wallbreaker sets I've not seen look overly problematic yet, but the Parting Shot + three attacks set is an absurdly good pivot that, unlike Scyther, isn't vulnerable to Rocky Helmet damage.

 

[zS]

echoing rabia’s words above i’m going to say why i voted dnb on grimm in the previous and why i’m still on the pro-dnb side.

while i think grimm is a very good mon in the metagame and finds a lot of opportunities in this meta, i do think we’ve come a long way with adapting to slow set-up sweepers like dudunsparce and eelektross and team building (at least from my experience) has been accommodating more and more to these kinds of mons. while grimmsnarl has a better dual stab and defensive typing than an eel or dudun would have being naturally immune to dtail which is atm the most common phazing tool, it is also a lot more frail which allows powerful breakers to get past it a lot more easily. it is also a less consistent progress maker, as dudun is able to spread paralysis and shuffle around mons with dtail on hazard stacking teams. the new drops we got also gave us tools to consistently deal with bulk up sets which are the 1s that are regarded as broken by the vast majority of people with haze cuno and carbink, as well as coil conda being as good as ever if not better than it ever was. i think where grimmsnarl could get annoying is how strong his pivoting prowess is as a breaker. being this dangerous of a bulk up sweeper forces very repetitive cycles and phases that can get easily abused by parting shot sets to get your breaker in early on a get a free lead. but as soon as you figure it out it’s not that hard to deal with + it’s not that potent of a breaker on its own due to how weak his stabs are. all in all, i think for now meta has adapted well and has the potential to do even better into grimmsnarl with more developing.

 

[Perla]

echoing rabia’s words above i’m going to say why i voted dnb on grimm in the previous and why i’m still on the pro-dnb side.

while i think grimm is a very good mon in the metagame and finds a lot of opportunities in this meta, i do think we’ve come a long way with adapting to slow set-up sweepers like dudunsparce and eelektross and team building (at least from my experience) has been accommodating more and more to these kinds of mons. while grimmsnarl has a better dual stab and defensive typing than an eel or dudun would have being naturally immune to dtail which is atm the most common phazing tool, it is also a lot more frail which allows powerful breakers to get past it a lot more easily. it is also a less consistent progress maker, as dudun is able to spread paralysis and shuffle around mons with dtail on hazard stacking teams. the new drops we got also gave us tools to consistently deal with bulk up sets which are the 1s that are regarded as broken by the vast majority of people with haze cuno and carbink, as well as coil conda being as good as ever if not better than it ever was. i think where grimmsnarl could get annoying is how strong his pivoting prowess is as a breaker. being this dangerous of a bulk up sweeper forces very repetitive cycles and phases that can get easily abused by parting shot sets to get your breaker in early on a get a free lead. but as soon as you figure it out it’s not that hard to deal with + it’s not that potent of a breaker on its own due to how weak his stabs are. all in all, i think for now meta has adapted well and has the potential to do even better into grimmsnarl with more developing.

I appreciate the general overview of the current "Bulk Up/Coil" NU meta and I think it summarises well the situation.
But... the current situation of the meta pushes me towards the other conclusion conversely.
I don't deny the good stuff about Eel and Dudun , but i think that Grimm has different advantages other than being immune to Dragon Tail.

Generally, for Eel and Dudun, "Trick+Choice Item" can be quite effective to cripple them, but Grimmsnarl can Prankster/Sub making this strategy counterproductive or even detrimental, because you let the goblin set up more Bulk Ups.

The point is that Grimm is actually a "semi-slow" setup sweeper, as it is able to immediately increase its bulk before the opponent's mon, which kinda makes up for its lower defensive stats.
Investing in its speed can even be a legitimate choice: some Cacturne have Encore as a pocket move which can be used against Eel and Dudun, to lock them into Coil/CM, as it naturally outspeeds those sets. But the cactus is slower than a speed-invested Grimmsnarl, making this move not so reliable against him.

Obviously the other useless Encore mon is Sableye which might be effective against the serpents, but it's the most exploitable thing if you're using the suspect tested mon.

With a quick look at the other Encore mons, I can see some faster stuff, but their typing is not exactly favourable against the dark fairy, so it could be hard to position them.

In conclusion, I agree that it is necessary to deal with the slow set up threats of the tier, but I think that Grimm restricts your options more than the other mons in this category.


Anyway everything would be much easier if we had this beloved elephant:

 

[Stories]

While Grimmsnarl doesn’t have the raw bulk of Dudunsparce (Eelektross is hardly bulkier than it), the utility Grimmsnarl naturally packs makes it far more degenerate in my opinion.

• It’s offensive coverage, namely its STAB combination is far more difficult to wall, and even without boosts a Grimmsnarl is quite threatening.
• Prankster allows for priority setups, letting it deal with faster Pokemon like Scyther far better because it can ensure a boost before being hit. Prankster Substitute allows Grimmsnarl to easily get around the traditional anti-setup answer of Choice Scarf + Trick, and RestTalk sets can allow Grimmsnarl to throw out priority-boosted attacks while shrugging off status.
• Grimmsnarl’s typing offers unique resistances from key Pokemon that often thwart other setup sweepers. An immunity to Dragon Tail means other boosters like Dudunsparce and Eelektross cannot simply boost and phase like they can against each other and Sandaconda. Grimmsnarl is also immune to Sableye’s Prankster Encore and Choice Scarf + Trick users like Rotom and Haunter are unable to safely switch in like they can against Dudunsparce and Sandaconda.
• While Dudunsparce, Eelektross, Sandaconda and others are generally relegated to only bulky setup sets, Grimmsnarl’s offensive sets generally lack defensive counterplay while offering priority and defensive pivoting in the process.

As much as I would love Grimmsnarl’s presence in the tier as an offensive Fairy-type pivot with great utility options, I find it a bit too overbearing, only being able to beat it with a combination of Helmet Sandaconda and Hazing it after forcing it to Rest.

 

[Danny]

Grimm is broken. Too strong, too fat, and its tab combo is near unwallable. It has priority set up which pushes it over the edge for me as that allows it to actually set up before being attacked in comparison to sandaconda, eel, dudun. Grimm has access to pivoting which also lets it create an insane volt/turn/pshot cycle which is hard to stop with conventional means. Prankster sleep talk is also a consideration for why it is bannable, allowing it to not only set up first but actually attack an opponent first while it is asleep. I just think its a bit too much and forces teams to run haze cuno or drifblim. Other bulky set up guys which realistically will either get crit through or pp stalled with the prio sleeptalk. All of this is not to mention its banded set which is able to nearly 2hko the entire tier and has prio trick to cripple would be checks. I've taken to running pdef carbink on some teams just to manage it and I do not think that mon is very good. Also tera helps it out.

I understand that these seem like the ramblings of a madman but I never claimed to be a formatting god like togkey. Thank you and have a nice day.

 

[Aawin]

Don't want to continue to beat a dead horse when it comes to Grimmsnarl, as there's been posts about it already, but I figured I'd let my thoughts be known since NUPL has wrapped up. Being in the builder pretty frequently during semifinals and the finals rounds, I really felt like there were many builds that I (and others whipped up) that felt insanely weak to Grimmsnarl inherently. To put it simply, Dark and Fairy dual-STAB is not consistently manageable for this tier. While yes, we have both Dark and Fairy resists individually, the combination of the two exacerbates its offensive presence tenfold.

As Togkey pointed out, this STAB combination without even needing boosts muscles through a majority of the tier naturally due to Grimmsnarl's base 120 attack. This is further pushed to high levels when equipping a Choice Band. Crunch and Play Rough alone are tough to stomach, and adding in Sucker Punch priority just makes this mon insanely tough to deal with; avoiding a snowball effect with Grimmsnarl is damn near impossible. Like Danny noted, this Pokemon can easily cripple its few defensive answers (like physdef Articuno, for an example) with Trick, cutting into their longevity if they rely on recovery (again, like Articuno does).

I haven't even talked about the collateral of Prankster Bulk Up yet, but that Pokemon is Scrafty from last gen on steroids. The amount of lanes that need to be paved are minimal. Pairing Grimmsnarl with Pokemon to dissuade Coil Sandaconda (one of the best checks overally), such as Coil Tera Fairy Eelektross, Bruxish, and the plethora of Grasses prior to it clicking Tera, is incredibly simple and doesn't require a ton of critical thought. Its defensive stats aren't super phenomenal, but the high HP in particular makes this mon deviously bulky and allows it to get many opportunities to heal with Rest or click Substitute to block Trick and faster status like Will-O-Wisp from Froslass.

As we saw in NUPL semifinals, there were 4 Grimmsnarl brought (admittedly a smalls sample size, but it was a new drop), and it saw a 75% winrate, which was the same as the winrate of Jolteon and Toxicroak. HDB with Parting Shot was a set my team built with a lot in NUPL and it put in work every time it came out. Pivoting while still throwing off strong ass attacks creates a ton of mindgames and can force the opponent into an unrecoverable position.

I don't think this meta has adapted super well to Grimmsnarl, and it feels like there are a limited number of checks. Forcing one of these checks onto every team (granted, Sandaconda usage won't die until DLCs fuck us, so no worries there I guess) feels a bit constrictive. Articuno is a great Pokemon in this meta, and I'm personally a fan of Carbink, but even with these, Grimmsnarl can still find a way to muscle through with its diverse movepool and plentiful opportunities.

 

[Rabia]

Grimmsnarl is banned (since a good few days ago)!

---

Tier shifts are in about half a week, but I want to draw attention to some Pokemon I believe to be banworthy in the current metagame. Naturally, it's hard to gauge what our August tier changes will look like, but potentially we could end up taking action on one of the following:


I won't beat a dead horse much here, but Jolteon is pretty toxic to the metagame. Our pool of Choice Scarf users is not the greatest, and of the most common ones, only one is a physical attacker. Calm Mind ends up being really good at shoring up Jolteon against such foes, and of course Tera Blast Ice makes just about all defensive counterplay null and void. For the targets it misses, just Volt Switch a few times on them and momentum loop the FUCK out of them.


Very versatile Pokemon with Choice Specs and Tera Fairy Draining Kiss sets being what pose the biggest issues imo. I think it's pretty checkable in the long run; Hisuian Qwilfish is super common, and Choice Specs isn't the fastest thing ever and is thus pretty revenge killable. Nevertheless, beyond Hisuian Qwilfish, Mesprit counterplay can vary a decent amount depending on its set, and this Pokemon has like 6 viable sets lol.


It was almost suspect tested back in May/June before council wavered a bit. Now, Dudunsparce remains in the spotlight with Coil sets being particularly noteworthy. Tera Fairy means you can't phaze it with your own Dragon Tail user, and Dudunsparce is also pretty effective early- and mid-game at just spreading paralysis and improving its odds down the line versus options like Appletun, Qwilfish, Haze Articuno, and Fighting-types that may play too aggressive. Special bulk investment ends up being much more practical too on such sets and helps get Dudunsparce in on foes like non-Will-O-Wisp Pyroar, Abomasnow, and Choice-locked Rotom.


As the meta has continued to develop, we've seen constantly shifting Oricorio sets. With Vaporeon gone, Tera Fairy with Taunt has become the predominant one for now, but naturally the Pokemon remains super versatile and can flip many matchups with a different Tera type, EV spread, or moveset. It's a very malleable option that frankly feels unfair to try and prepare for at times as a result.

Encouraging people to give their thoughts on the current meta and any strong opinions they have

 

[Aawin]

To also not beat a dead horse, I posted a few days ago as to why Jolteon is the most braindead Pokemon in the tier here

Addressing the Pokemon Rabia brought up-

- This Pokemon also feels like too much to handle in our current metagame. Mesprit has a multitude of viable sets that pose to be threatening to structures across the meta. Calm Mind and Nasty Plot with Draining Kiss allows it to snowball with only a few boosts, and the recovery gained back prevents a majority of special attackers from revenging it. Specs is a low-risk, high reward breaker that requires a modicum of prediction to work effectively. Psychic STAB of choice, Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt / Ice Beam, and U-Turn is really all it needs to become out of hand. As seen in a few matches in NUPL, the power of specs Mesprit changed the tide of the game entirely.

To put a long story short, the amount of offenseive sets Mesprit can utilize is immense, and the limited number of answers defensively make me inclined to believe the Pokemon is too strong for current NU. If we had Steels, it still might prove too problematic.

- Frankly I've never used this Pokemon, but I can see why people are adamant its broken. The combination of Quiver Dance and the interaction of Tera with Revelation Dance is evidently too powerful for a majority of the tier to handle. Additionally, I give credit to Danny for revolutionizing the Taunt Oricorio wave (he's the first person I've seen use this effectively across many different tours). Taunt + Quiver Dance allows Oricorio to punish fat walls such as Umbreon and Blissey (to an extent) and use them as fodder. The moment a Blissey or Umbreon commits to taking out an Oricorio, the opponent loses a majority of the progress made and can lose in a rapid fashion.

If Tera wasn't being toyed with so extensively and people weren't compelled to keep it around just because it's a generational gimmick, I'd be under the impression that Oricorio might be okay as well (similarly to Mesprit). Tera exacerbates Oricorio's dangerous kit of tools, but this mon in its base form is incredibly strong and also semi-brainless. Ban it.

- Yet another Pokemon that snowballs extensively on both sides of the spectrum with Coil and Calm Mind, and two solid abilities in Serene Grace and Rattled, how does this Pokemon lose realistically. Not much needs to be done in order for a Dudunsparce to have a clean matchup advantage. 60% paralysis chance on Body Slam in a metagame where there is only one (1) cleric that cannot fit Heal Bell without sacrificing vital utility says a ton. 60% of the time, the opponent will win 100% of the time.

Dudunsparce is also YET ANOTHER Tera monkey that can flip its type and instantly become a deviant for the opposition to deal with. Every time I see a Dudunsparce on the other side, I shit myself because how much progress this Pokemon makes by existing. Coupled with great pivots in Jolteon and Mesprit, two Pokemon enabling a third broken, Dudunsparce finds many opportunities to set up and win, or just spread status and delay the inevitable.

Overall I think all 4 of these Pokemon deserve the boot from the tier sooner rather than later. Hoping council holds a slate on these and discussion is productive in finding the best possible solution

 

[Aawin]

SHIFT DAY!!!!
Avalugg moved from RU to NU
Avalugg-Hisui moved from RU to NU
Cryogonal moved from RU to NU
Floatzel moved from RU to NU
Samurott moved from RU to NU
Zoroark moved from RU to NU

To discuss these a bit with my initial thoughts-

- Personal favorite of mine, this Pokemon acts as a pretty solid blanket check to a majority of physical attackers in the tier. Massive defense coupled with Iron Defense + Body Press and Tera feels really strong at face value, and also gives us a spinner that dissuades Sandaconda a bit! Looking forward to seeing this guy on bulkier offense builds.

- A very strong physical attacker that will be okay at best in my opinion. There are better options for sure but this Pokemon might be useful in Trick Room I guess? Another Rapid Spin user that can put pressure on common defensive cores with its great STAB combo and coverage

- Cryo is easily the best addition to this tier by far. Another hazard remover and ground immunity (!!!!) in a tier where Sandaconda is still the top dog (and being able to stunt on Coil Tera Dragon Sanda with Tera Steel is nice too) is really appreciated. A solid blanket to neutral special hits, and a great speed tier of 105, this Pokemon feels like it will be a nice glue on a lot of different structures. It also has utility with Haze, as well as recovery, which are both great tools.

- NGL, I forgot this mon wasn't here :skull: . With us getting a rain setter in Sableye last shift + having a plethora of dangerous Swift Swim sweepers, I think Floatzel adds a lot of viability to these structures, especially with Rain-boosted Wave Crash. Not much else to say here.

- In a tier without Vaporeon and limited Water resists, I think this mon will be good! It retained access to Knock Off, has Swords Dance, and solid coverage such as Drill Run and Megahorn to target Qwilfish and opposing Grasses. It also has a very strong set of options on the Special side, meaning it can become a lure for a number of potential answers when coupled with Tera Blast.

- fuck this Pokemon.

These are just my shorthand thoughts on the Pokemon we got, looking forward to seeing how the meta develops before we get fucking ravaged in September

 

[Perla]

It might be premature, but I honestly think that Cryogonal is already the best mon in the tier. Great ability, nice stats, good defensive tera abuser and a mon with the desired hazard control.
All these qualities in a tier which is still without steel types and uncommon pure fire types, so you can spam your Ice moves (including Freeze Dry) freely.
For other ice types, it has also Flash Cannon just to conclude with something that definitely doesn't hurt

 

[hammer798]

Honestly a little terrified by the flood that's probably going to come down in September after RU settles

 

[Rabia]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-stage-4-bye-bye-august-tier-shifts.3725517/