★ NP: Stage 15 - Labyrinth (Cetitan Quickbanned)

[etern]

With the recent tier shift behind us the NU Council has decided that now is the best time to suspect test Mienshao and determine its fate! Mienshao has steadily been gaining traction amongst people in the NU community for a number of months now and has solidified itself as one of the most fearsome threats in the tier with a myriad of qualities which allow it to stand above everyone else.

Mienshao's most popular set has always been Choice Scarf, as it can easily take advantage of a great Speed tier, high Attack, U-turn, and excellent Regenerator ability to constantly pivot and gain momentum while exerting good offensive pressure and utility in Knock Off. However, many people will argue that what pushes Mienshao over the line is it's incredibly potent Life Orb Wallbreaker set which forgoes speed for the ability to devastate almost anything in the tier. A Life Orb boosted Triple Axel does colossal damage to would be checks such as Amoonguss, Gligar, Altaria, Palossand, and Dragalge, as well as forcing Fairy-types like Sylveon and Scream Tail to immediately heal. Meanwhile, Knock Off deals major damage to Slowbro-Galar, Articuno-Galar, Basculegion, and Chandelure, and can remove Heavy Duty Boots off certain defensive Pokemon that will struggle to deal with Mienshao once Hazards are added to the equation. Close Combat also deals ridiculous damage when boosted by Life Orb, practically 2HKO'ing anything that does not resist it, while U-turn maintains momentum for Mienshao and forces a lot of initial switch-ins to recover or risk being OHKO'd by it's coverage later. Regenerator allows Mienshao to freely run Life Orb without being worn down by recoil, and also makes Rocky Helmet and Entry Hazard chip irrelevant, as Mienshao won't stay in long enough for the damage it sustains to outmatch what it recovers as it U-turns out. This coupled with its impressive Base 105 Speed stat means Mienshao is very difficult for balance teams to handle, while also ensuring it still maintains a strong matchup versus Pokemon commonly seen on Offense like Flygon and Paldean Tauros.

However, Mienshao's greatest weakness is how frail it is, which makes it incredibly easy to revenge kill with anything that it is outsped by. This also means that it can be quite easy to use Terrastalization as a way of living a hit from Mienshao and KO'ing it in return. Tera Fairy and Tera Poison are common Tera-types on defensive and offensive Pokemon alike, and are useful for neutralizing Mienshao's attacks, forcing it to U-turn a lot more often or risk being taken out of the match before it manages to achieve any meaningful progress. This does mean however that Mienshao is quite effective at forcing out earlier tera's which can be very beneficial for the offensive teams it finds itself on, and allow other teammates to take advantage of this later. Mienshao can also scout situations that seem like it is being baited by a tera with U-turn, and respond accordingly. All in all, Mienshao has many tools which make it an extremely consistent Pokemon with little downside, making it one of the premier threats of the SV NU Metagame.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in NU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played NU before the test, full stop.)​
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.​
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, Pokeslice, or a member of staff.​
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me.​

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800. The deadline for getting requirements will be Thursday, January 16th at 11:59pm GMT+11.​

​

 

[Yech]

With new drops happening with a Mienshao suspect, I do want to write down how our newest mons matchup against Mienshao,

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 112-133 (25.9 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO, this thing can tank LO Shao's moves quite well and with the threat of Stun Spore paralysis or if Shao is somehow low enough, a Sludge Bomb KO, Shao def wants to U turn out against Amoonguss. Spinner Taxel hurt a lot but LO Shao sometimes struggles to find space in its moveset for those and Scarf Shao only deals 42 max which Amoonguss doesn't lose too much from due to Regenerator. Overall a decent matchup as Stun Spore and Sludge Bomb do let it threaten Mienshao out as well but does have to be wary of the occasional ice coverage move.

With the defense boost from snow, this surprisingly survives a Close Combat from Life Orb Shao and easily threatens Mienshao out with it's higher speed and Moonblast on offensive sets. However, it only can do this once and doesn't like getting Boots or Icy Rock knocked off. It also enables

who outruns Scarf Shao with Slush Rush and a Jolly Nature and surprisingly has the bulk to eat a Life orb CC from Shao and still have the HP to Belly Drum with Sitrus Berry, the Snow defense boost, and Aurora Veil but that leaves it extremely weak to priority afterwards.
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cetitan in Snow with an ally's Aurora Veil: 235-278 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO

I guess this lives a CC like once and can threaten a burn with Will-o-Wisp or Lava Plume back? I guess Coalossal can't do that but Torkoal is still bad in NU. I'll see ya in PU in February when you quickdrop buddy, don't have high hopes for you down there either.

 

[DD Joe]

Having just got reqs here are my thoughts:

Defensive Options

Avalugg gives this thing a tough time, especially if supported with ice body and further supported by tera poison, Avalugg is quite popular at the moment and with access to recover is a pretty solid check even for LO:

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg in Snow: 151-182 (38.3 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Amoonguss also gives this mon trouble. Whilst Triple Axel is an efficient 2HKO, the common place item of Rocky Helmet means that Mienshao takes a heavy toll pressing this button.

However, there is an argument as to whether regenerator simply offsets this damage.

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 304-361 (70.5 - 83.7%) -- approx. 2HKO

Vileplume yields a similar story to Amoonguss:

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 265-321 (74.8 - 90.6%) -- approx. 2HKO

However, with the power of strength sap, water tera and effect spore, Vileplume can serve as a useful deterrent to Mienshao clicking buttons.

Finally, the mon Registeel can only really function as a defensive check if it can tera/pull off a well times iron defense. That is, if Registeel has spdef investment as is standard.

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel: 351-413 (96.4 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

This means that Regi will be forced to tera, which is a huge resource , and doesn't serve as a totally adequate check.

In conclusion, the defensive options are quite limited against Mienshao and not totally reliable. Avalugg needs snow, Regi will require a tera or ID, Amoonguss gets eaten by triple axel and Vileplume has to rely on tera/hax.

Beating it offensively

Inteleon is a great, faster option for revenging Mienshao. The specs variant has few switch ins due to its pure power and can chase Mienshao out.

However, it is important to note that Scarf Mienshao can OHKO with Close Combat (not 100% reliably however)

252 Atk Mienshao Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Inteleon: 271-319 (96.4 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

This means that if you have scouted LO, Inteleon is a perfect revenge option.

Scarf Staraptor is also a reliable revenger (pending no stealth rocks damage)

Scarf Shao can't OHKO Scarf Staraptor with CC. This makes Staraptor a good choice for revenging/reliably pivoting against it.

252 Atk Mienshao Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Staraptor: 255-301 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Tornadus is also a great revenger. It has strong offensive capability and can pivot. The only caveat is that Bleakwind storm is an inaccurate move and its only option to OHKO Mienshao.

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tornadus: 165-195 (55.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Of course, other pokemon can effectively revenge with choice items. Few lack the raw power to OHKO it outright even with SR chip.

One exception is Chandelure, who can OHKO with Fire Blast. Again, however, this is relying strongly on an inaccurate move.

252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mienshao: 292-345 (107.7 - 127.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO


Conclusions:

The defensive checks are unreliable for Mienshao. Life Orb gives it immense power and with its excellent speed tier its not simple to revenge it. With the plethora of strong defensive cores, pivoting this thing is too easy. Too much reward for too little risk. This mon forces defensive teras like nothing else in the tier.

Offensively, there is a significant lack of powerful priority currently as well as reliable revenging options. There are few offensive mons who can come back in and build momentum without a choice item and thus makes counter play easy and predictable.

In conclusion, I think the kung fu cat is slightly overtuned and too powerful for the tier currently. Even with Ninetales Alola providing aurora veil and defensive boosts to Ice Type, it can pivot to bulky cores to whether those storms and sweep up.

Will most likely be voting ban pending arguments!

Thank you also to Shengineer for the specs ninetales team that I used to ladder.

Cheers!

 

[Django]

After getting reqs and watching quite a few recent SV NU games, I'm currently leaning towards DNB on Mienshao.

It most certainly is one of the best, if not the best, progress makers in the tier. Between a fast Knock Off, U-Turn, and ridiculously strong CC, it will almost always remove a key item, pivot to another dangerous breaker, or force some sort of defensive Tera. With Regenerator, punishing U-Turn is also very difficult and means Mienshao can very easily scout those defensive Teras. These are the things which make Mienshao A Very Good Mon but for me they don't push it over the line into broken territory.

Mienshao doesn't have the bulk to easily switch in on much of the tier (although Regenerator helps this) and if it misses an OHKO it's almost certainly going to drop to whatever hit comes back. While it does force the defensive Tera, if it gets the Tera read wrong or decides not to pivot, it's going to die. These turns are awkward for both players, and I think allows for some nice risk vs reward calculations on both sides. This probably favours the Mienshao user, but they need to position Mienshao first in order to do this.

Mienshao is also predictable, with LO or Scarf being the only real sets and running almost exactly the same moves. It's not like there are multiple sets here with entirely different checks and counters. Specs is not real.

Defensive checks exist (Sylveon, Amoongus / Vileplume, Bellibolt, Slowbro-G), and if you include Tera then you can add many more like Tera Poison Vaporeon. While it's speed tier is amazing, there are quite a few great mons capable of outspeeding it without scarf which you probably want to be running anyway (Munkidori, Kilo, Cinccino, Raikou, Scream Tail, Ninetales-A). Strong Intimidate users like Tauros-A also exist.

The main argument I may yet be convinced by is that building balance with this mon in the tier is too restrictive, as the list of both defensive and offensive check is quite narrow and limits the options for teambuilding. It feels like we've seen a bit of a shift towards either very offensive or very fat teams recently in NUCL, but I'll be interested in what the next few games bring. However, building balance seems like a bit of a lost cause to me in SV regardless, partly due to the effect of Tera and how many offensive threats there will always be because of that. It feels like a generation where proactive teams will always be favoured, and certain balance teams might fall into the category of just being too passive while Tera exists. Mienshao is certainly limiting to these teams, but I'm not sure it's limiting enough to be broken, or just limiting as it's one of the best mons in the tier and you will lose if you don't prepare for it, similar to something like Flygon.

Looking forward to seeing some more games with Mienshao now Amoongus and Ninetales are in the tier, and whether that's enough to keep it in check and open up teambuilding.

 

[Be13costa]

I most likely won't get Req's for this suspect mostly due to time and talent, but I feel that I have something short to contribute.

Shao has being in our tier for a long time now and it was always excellent but was very limited for having a mix of faster threats and better walls. It was for a long time a mon that was 85% of the time a scarfer (and the best of the meta for that slot). But after the meta became even more favorable to it it was able to go in to more dmg with LO and even play other sets like SCL AV Shao.

The only set that made people want the Shao ban is the LO set that abuses regen for negate the LO negative effect wile giving it all the breaking power that was almost there in the Scarf set. I genuinely think that set is ban worthy set in our current situation. Its the best mon on the tier in many builds that can click CC without the fear of not getting progress. Most games are decided on the interaction between Shao and the defensive tera.

The main ban argument is how its meta warping and more than that but id say that its the best mon by far on the tier to force teras. It's extremely common and easy to bait teras with that mon.

The funnier part is that I think Shao it self is stronger than a couple mons on BL but has a healthier plays style to the meta that is understandable how it still part of the meta.

I really like Shao, but I'd vote BAN both from the genuinely curiosity of a meta without Shao and for it being super strong.


One important observation in the same second we receive mons like Talon and Slowbro, or any defensive mon that makes progress punished by it owns existence Shao must be freed.

 

[Ren-chon]

Got reqs so can finally share my thoughts here. Anyone who knows me, or has seen me talk about shao, knows where I stand on this, or rather stood before trying to get reqs. I had quite a huge change of mind while laddering and shao is surprisingly... Fine? Amoonguss and 9tales make it way more manageable to the point Im actually pending DnB rn.

jk this mon is still broken as hell. I wholeheartedly believe shao has reached gallade levels of balance killer to the point every balance either has to be A LOT more offensive than it would normally be, or you head into the game knowing youll have to tera if you face LO shao (the only good set btw. AV is decent and scarf SUCKS). Current counterplay mostly includes one of the following:

Fairies who, to my knowledge, are the only non-tera fight resists that arent weak to ice or dark in the tier. This means those are the closest things we have to proper shao counters since they resist cc, knock, and even uturn meaning those are the safest switches you could have... right? Nope:

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 158-188 (40.1 - 47.7%) -- approx. 51.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 154-183 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- approx. 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Triple Axel (120 BP) (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alcremie: 146-173 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- approx. 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

In a tier with little to no options for hazard removal, if youre taking 40 min then you might as well consider it a 2hko. Sylv is the closest we have to a proper counter, but then again it depends on staying healthy ALL the time. If it ever drops to as low as 80% with rocks up, then axel into cc is a KO. Lefties dont matter since to check shao it WILL be losing its item. So thats one category of answers that shao can still muscle through.

The other fight resists. One thing they all share in common is that theyre all scared of at least one of shaos coverage moves, with tenta in fact being OHKOd by a high roll knock into high roll cc (which you dont even gotta go for anyway since next time it comes in it dies). Gligar, altaria, amoonguss, plume, croak and guno are all afraid of axel; slowbro, tenta, uxie, altaria and guno REALLY dont wanna take a knock; and all of them bar plume can also be just uturned on as a middle ground. Another list of checks out.

About as much cope as you can get if youre depending on effect spore / static to beat shao, ngl. Not as bad for plume but youre basically praying for the 10% para, since poison wont help and sleep is fine but regen means shao can still fish for turns to wake up later on.

Teras, basically. Those are fine but then again its basically what I mentioned before: if it forces a defensive tera, especially early on, then the shao player already won the exchange, and ngl this thing is the best mon in the tier at forcing those. Now you wasted one of the strongest mechanics ever while your opp can still just keep shao as a pivot.

Offensive checks basically, which is the best (and ngl only viable) way to properly handle this mon. While the list does seem big, keep in mind that none of them necessarily even want to switch into shao, are almost HO exclusive (cincc, evio scyther, scream tail), arent exactly that great (intel, ape, lazzle), or are situational checks at best, as gon and shao need scarf, the tauros depend on intim so they almost exclusively need to switch into a shao already on the field, and alolaslash and cetitan need snow up or cetitan to already be at +6. 9t is maybe the best on this list due to snow boosting its defenses, whereas munki is one of our best scarfers and kilo can roost to keep itself healthy, being the best fits for balance. However this also shows a problem with shao being in the tier: it forces balance to either be more offensive making it more frail and potentially worse at handling other mons (like vap since nothing on this list even switches on it lol), or you gotta do what I mentioned above and tera very early on... or you can also cope with muk and swalot so just pick your poison here.

As it stands, shao lacks consistent defensive gameplay while the offensive ones are either very team style dependent (HO, Snow) or force balance to play a very unhealthy game of being less defensively sound OR giving up your tera very early. Keep in mind none of these are balance "adapting" to shao, but rather having to struggle just to keep up with a single mon. With all this said, Im 100% voting ban.

 

[Tuthur]

I do quite resonate with Ren's post. Unless you are using HO, the standard LO set is just too much to handle. You can play around it with resists, especially regen poison-types in Galarian Slowbro and Amoonguss, but one mispredict and you're very behind, while Mienshao player mispredicting often doesn't mean much as they can just U-turn and get back to full health thanks to Regenerator.

It's important to have powerful Pokémon like Mienshao that are able to break defensive cores, but Mienshao just is at another level than your standard wallbreaker. The Speed tier is just amazing, meaning Mienshao will often be able to revenge kill the opposing teams wallbreaker while exercing incredible pressure on your defensive core. Mienshao can 2HKO pretty much anything in the tier, and OHKO faster checks; and if it doesn't feel like predicting, it can punish your reactive play with U-turn, wearing its check down, and getting a special wallbreaker. All of this for free thanks to Regenerator. The closest example to it would be Kilowrattel, which is also a very good Pokémon, but suffers from Flying special moves being awful, not being able to remove Heavy-Duty Boots from its checks, and Volt Switch having immunities.

Pokémon is a game of positioning and resource trade; Mienshao just excels way too much in both. It can easily position itself and its teammates, and this is rarely costing it any resource. Mienshao is just straight up too good for the tier. Ban it please.

 

[LessThanThreeMan]

I really think Ren-chon 's and Tuthur's post are excellent here, and I wanted to echo those sentiments! Hopefully I get a chance to finish my reqs run this coming week but it's been busy for me irl, if so I plan on voting ban on shao.

The only problematic set is life orb. It's a decent scarfer but I'd argue thats a healthy presence in the tier and it's fairly easy to punish it for locking into a move other than u-turn. AV kind of exists, but I don't really think much else needs to be said there. I said something similar when talonflame first rose but in that shift we lost both the contact punish, most splash-able revenge killer, and our reliable means of removing hazards on balance. It also enabled shao to drop stone edge for ice coverage which made what would be good checks (plume, gligar, and amoonguss even though it came later) much less effective. Especially with the hazard stack that has become popular/effective, lo shao puts too much pressure on balance. Even good checks like sylveon get their boots/lefties knocked off and then they are heavily pressured later on. Most of the good ways of checking shao involve using your tera (isn't forcing tera what we banned lucario for?) or offensive checks. And sure we do have plenty of good revenge killers/offensive checks, but they have a tough time coming in. This interaction really forces balance teams to become either much fatter or much more offensive, which I don't think is healthy for the meta.

I will say I see why shao doesn't feel broken on ladder anymore, and there are a couple reasons why. Firstly I think a lot of us would agree that the quality of nu ladder games keeps going down. Sure there are some demons here and there, but on average I'm facing 4 people who don't know what they are doing for every 1 person who does. If you keep facing bad teams and teams that don't run shao then it isn't going to feel broken. Secondly, with the recent shift we have an influx of snow which is taking over the ladder. These snow HO variants tend to just blow through shao teams so of course it doesn't seem broken in those matchups. I think cetitan (or alotales but I would prefer cetitan specifically) needs tiering action after the shao suspect ends and is overshadowing shao. But that doesn't mean shao isn't broken as it still invalidates a play style. Of course it isn't broken in HO vs HO or when HO is blowing through balance, that's not why we are discussing shao in the first place. This is the kind of meta we are trying to get away from with tiering. A tier is at its healthiest when multiple play styles are viable, and I don't think keeping shao is conducive to achieving a well balanced SV NU tier.

 

[Django]

Some interesting stats to mull over since the tier shifts:

NUCL W1:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Gastrodon          |    7 |  43.75% |  57.14% |
| 1    | Mienshao           |    7 |  43.75% |  57.14% |

NUCL W2:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Flygon             |    7 |  43.75% |  42.86% |
| 2    | Klefki             |    6 |  37.50% |  66.67% |
| 3    | Mienshao           |    5 |  31.25% |  80.00% |

Amoonguss and Ninetales drop into NU here

NUCL W3:

+ ---- + ------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon             | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Mienshao            |    5 |  31.25% |  20.00% |

NUCL W3 + Circuit playoffs:

+ ---- + ------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon             | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Flygon              |   13 |  30.95% |  38.46% |
| 2    | Mienshao            |   11 |  26.19% |  27.27% |

This is a pretty significant drop off, over a relatively large number of games. Is this just variance or an actual shift in how teams can deal with Mienshao?

 

[Lunar Sloth]

I saw that Mienshao was getting suspect tested and was curious, so it got me back to playing the tier. Take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I finally got the requirements so I'm gonna share my thoughts here!

The most common set I seemed to encounter was Life Orb. This turns Mienshao's already good attack stat up considerably. It obviously doesnt mind the chip damage with regen, so its not too bad of a trade off. Odds are if something lived a hit, itd kill you anyway lol. Scarf also makes it a great late game cleaner and nuisance as a revenge killer throughout the game.
I saw a few other sets like band, av, protective pads. Though I'm not sure how viable these are truly. I can see their merit, but they feel less effective.

I honestly didn't feel like Mienshao was too overwhelming during my games. It was definitely a strong threat, however it didn't feel unreasonable to answer for the most part. However if it was LO, it was quite tough to defensively answer. You have to keep your fighting resists healthy and have a plan for hazards that add to that pressure. Knock offs that are clicked into fighting checks force off lefties/boots that let them answer Mienshao. However you can easily revenge it with a faster threat or scarfer (Scream Tail, Kilo, Cinccino, scarf munki, etc). Also while I don't believe this means its healthy, I feel like it's fair to mention how frail Mienshao is and one well timed defensive tera will almost surely get it ohko'd. Of course you can argue forcing mons to tera is unhealthy in itself, which is fair, but it really just dies to like anything. Scarf lacks the same power as life orb and being locked into a move makes it much easier to play around. Though Scarf should def still be respected as an option. I may be biased as a big scarf Munkidori fan, but Life Orb definitely felt the closest to broken for me.

While it didn't feel necessarily impossible to answer, I wonder if it is healthy with how the defensive answers are shaky, and it often can force pokemon to tera to not lose to it. Initially I was considering DNB, but I'm kinda leaning ban now.

 

[etern]

Voting is now up. Please vote as soon as possible using the link provided.

Tagging qualified voters:

Lunar Sloth
eifo
SPHZ
Cheezy
Ren-chon
Phantomistix
hammer798
OranBerryBlissey10
Diamonds_realm
Fathiryxi
Soucou
Ac1D_13
bricknermon
Dangerous
turtledoggo1
Tree69420
DD Joe
Django
quziel
Zangoose5000
Shengineer
Stories
Tuthur
Shadow079
Wadley
Elias PSY
S1nn0hC0nfirm3d

 

[etern]

A 50% + 1 (14/27) majority was required to ban Mienshao, which it has acquired. Therefore, Mienshao is now banned from SV NU. The vote will stay open until 11:59pm (GMT+11) January 23rd, to allow the remaining voters to cast their votes (though they will not change the outcome).

Tagging Marty and dhelmise to remove Mienshao from SV NU, thank you!

 

[Shengineer]

Excited to see how much balance is opened up following this ban. Building has been a headache with how difficult Mienchao was to answer defensively. I believe Mienshao pushed the entire metagame towards HO a bit too strongly, as it was one of the few archetypes that performed favorably into it. While I enjoy building and piloting HO, the degree to which Mienshao warped the meta was unhealthy, and the tier should be better off without it.

P.S. This NP song is kinda fire, thank you for introducing me to awesome new music

 

[Django]

Now that Mienshao is banned, here's some stats from Round 2 of SSNL and NUCL:

Combined

+ ---- + ------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon             | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Flygon              |   61 |  44.20% |  50.82% |
| 2    | Avalugg             |   26 |  18.84% |  46.15% |
| 3    | Klefki              |   25 |  18.12% |  48.00% |
| 4    | Bronzong            |   24 |  17.39% |  45.83% |
| 5    | Tauros-Paldea-Aqua  |   24 |  17.39% |  54.17% |
| 6    | Registeel           |   23 |  16.67% |  56.52% |
| 7    | Cinccino            |   22 |  15.94% |  54.55% |
| 8    | Diancie             |   21 |  15.22% |  42.86% |
| 9    | Toxtricity          |   21 |  15.22% |  57.14% |
| 10   | Oricorio-Sensu      |   21 |  15.22% |  57.14% |
| 11   | Toxicroak           |   21 |  15.22% |  52.38% |
| 12   | Kilowattrel         |   18 |  13.04% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Ninetales-Alola     |   18 |  13.04% |  44.44% |
| 14   | Incineroar          |   18 |  13.04% |  61.11% |
| 15   | Slowbro-Galar       |   17 |  12.32% |  52.94% |
| 16   | Basculegion         |   16 |  11.59% |  50.00% |
| 17   | Vaporeon            |   16 |  11.59% |  56.25% |
| 18   | Chandelure          |   16 |  11.59% |  43.75% |
| 19   | Amoonguss           |   15 |  10.87% |  60.00% |
| 20   | Sylveon             |   15 |  10.87% |  46.67% |
| 21   | Gligar              |   15 |  10.87% |  66.67% |
| 22   | Gastrodon           |   14 |  10.14% |  50.00% |
| 23   | Scream Tail         |   13 |   9.42% |  46.15% |
| 24   | Cetitan             |   12 |   8.70% |  66.67% |
| 25   | Altaria             |   12 |   8.70% |  58.33% |
| 26   | Copperajah          |   11 |   7.97% |  72.73% |
| 27   | Tsareena            |   11 |   7.97% |  36.36% |
| 28   | Scyther             |   11 |   7.97% |  36.36% |
| 29   | Munkidori           |   10 |   7.25% |  60.00% |
| 30   | Inteleon            |   10 |   7.25% |  50.00% |
| 31   | Thwackey            |   10 |   7.25% |  40.00% |
| 32   | Ditto               |    9 |   6.52% |  55.56% |
| 33   | Decidueye           |    9 |   6.52% |  44.44% |
| 34   | Swampert            |    9 |   6.52% |  55.56% |
| 35   | Grafaiai            |    9 |   6.52% |  44.44% |
| 36   | Hitmonlee           |    9 |   6.52% |  44.44% |
| 37   | Tentacruel          |    8 |   5.80% |  37.50% |
| 38   | Sandslash-Alola     |    8 |   5.80% |  50.00% |
| 39   | Muk-Alola           |    7 |   5.07% |  42.86% |
| 40   | Staraptor           |    7 |   5.07% |  71.43% |
| 41   | Tauros-Paldea-Blaze |    6 |   4.35% |  50.00% |
| 42   | Meloetta            |    6 |   4.35% |  66.67% |
| 43   | Scrafty             |    6 |   4.35% |  50.00% |
| 44   | Porygon2            |    6 |   4.35% |  16.67% |
| 45   | Houndstone          |    6 |   4.35% |  50.00% |
| 46   | Orthworm            |    6 |   4.35% |  33.33% |
| 47   | Arcanine            |    6 |   4.35% |  66.67% |
| 48   | Infernape           |    6 |   4.35% |  66.67% |
| 49   | Tornadus            |    6 |   4.35% |  16.67% |
| 50   | Espeon              |    6 |   4.35% |  66.67% |
| 51   | Raikou              |    5 |   3.62% |  40.00% |
| 52   | Brambleghast        |    5 |   3.62% |  40.00% |
| 53   | Uxie                |    5 |   3.62% |  40.00% |
| 54   | Drednaw             |    5 |   3.62% |  60.00% |
| 55   | Porygon-Z           |    5 |   3.62% |  80.00% |
| 56   | Heracross           |    4 |   2.90% |  50.00% |
| 57   | Duraludon           |    4 |   2.90% |  50.00% |
| 58   | Flamigo             |    4 |   2.90% |  50.00% |
| 59   | Articuno-Galar      |    4 |   2.90% | 100.00% |
| 60   | Breloom             |    3 |   2.17% |  33.33% |
| 61   | Golurk              |    3 |   2.17% |  33.33% |
| 62   | Mudsdale            |    3 |   2.17% | 100.00% |
| 63   | Hariyama            |    3 |   2.17% |  66.67% |
| 64   | Galvantula          |    3 |   2.17% |  66.67% |
| 65   | Ambipom             |    3 |   2.17% |  66.67% |
| 66   | Persian-Alola       |    2 |   1.45% |  50.00% |
| 67   | Rotom-Heat          |    2 |   1.45% |  50.00% |
| 68   | Dragalge            |    2 |   1.45% |   0.00% |
| 69   | Torterra            |    2 |   1.45% |   0.00% |
| 70   | Tauros              |    2 |   1.45% |   0.00% |
| 71   | Milotic             |    2 |   1.45% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Scovillain          |    2 |   1.45% |   0.00% |
| 73   | Venusaur            |    2 |   1.45% |   0.00% |
| 74   | Wo-Chien            |    2 |   1.45% |   0.00% |
| 75   | Swalot              |    2 |   1.45% |  50.00% |
| 76   | Braviary-Hisui      |    2 |   1.45% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Froslass            |    2 |   1.45% |  50.00% |
| 78   | Bombirdier          |    2 |   1.45% |   0.00% |
| 79   | Vileplume           |    2 |   1.45% |  50.00% |
| 80   | Dipplin             |    2 |   1.45% |  50.00% |
| 81   | Palossand           |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 82   | Bellibolt           |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Zoroark             |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Tatsugiri-Stretchy  |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 85   | Glastrier           |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 86   | Hattrem             |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Vikavolt            |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Mismagius           |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 89   | Bastiodon           |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 90   | Florges             |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 91   | Goodra              |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 92   | Rhydon              |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Whimsicott          |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 94   | Lurantis            |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 95   | Malamar             |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 96   | Passimian           |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 97   | Smeargle            |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 98   | Gastrodon-East      |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Dudunsparce         |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Pawmot              |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 101  | Abomasnow           |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 102  | Lycanroc            |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 103  | Avalugg-Hisui       |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Minior-Indigo       |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 105  | Leavanny            |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 106  | Virizion            |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 107  | Sneasel-Hisui       |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 108  | Ludicolo            |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Overqwil            |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 110  | Kingdra             |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 111  | Cramorant           |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 112  | Brute Bonnet        |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 113  | Mesprit             |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 114  | Volbeat             |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 115  | Typhlosion-Hisui    |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |
| 116  | Drifblim            |    1 |   0.72% |   0.00% |
| 117  | Florges-Blue        |    1 |   0.72% | 100.00% |

NUCL W5

+ ---- + ------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon             | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Flygon              |    8 |  50.00% |  62.50% |
| 2    | Registeel           |    5 |  31.25% |  60.00% |
| 3    | Cetitan             |    4 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Ninetales-Alola     |    4 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Sylveon             |    4 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Avalugg             |    4 |  25.00% |  25.00% |
| 7    | Basculegion         |    3 |  18.75% |  66.67% |
| 8    | Cinccino            |    3 |  18.75% |  33.33% |
| 9    | Kilowattrel         |    3 |  18.75% |  33.33% |
| 10   | Bronzong            |    3 |  18.75% |   0.00% |
| 11   | Incineroar          |    3 |  18.75% |  66.67% |
| 12   | Munkidori           |    3 |  18.75% |  66.67% |
| 13   | Gastrodon           |    3 |  18.75% |   0.00% |
| 14   | Brambleghast        |    2 |  12.50% | 100.00% |
| 15   | Scream Tail         |    2 |  12.50% |  50.00% |
| 16   | Muk-Alola           |    2 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 17   | Amoonguss           |    2 |  12.50% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Copperajah          |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 19   | Rotom-Heat          |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 20   | Scrafty             |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 21   | Sandslash-Alola     |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Diancie             |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 23   | Glastrier           |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 24   | Hattrem             |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Vikavolt            |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 26   | Gligar              |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 27   | Tatsugiri-Stretchy  |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Duraludon           |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Golurk              |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Tauros-Paldea-Blaze |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 31   | Tentacruel          |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 32   | Uxie                |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Decidueye           |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Infernape           |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 35   | Drednaw             |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 36   | Tornadus            |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Breloom             |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 38   | Scyther             |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 39   | Florges             |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 40   | Tsareena            |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 41   | Klefki              |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 42   | Oricorio-Sensu      |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 43   | Tauros-Paldea-Aqua  |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 44   | Staraptor           |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 45   | Chandelure          |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 46   | Ditto               |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 47   | Dragalge            |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 48   | Arcanine            |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 49   | Slowbro-Galar       |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 50   | Gastrodon-East      |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 51   | Houndstone          |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Vaporeon            |    1 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 53   | Inteleon            |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 54   | Meloetta            |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 55   | Toxicroak           |    1 |   6.25% | 100.00% |

SSNL

+ ---- + ------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon             | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Flygon              |   53 |  43.44% |  49.06% |
| 2    | Klefki              |   24 |  19.67% |  45.83% |
| 3    | Tauros-Paldea-Aqua  |   23 |  18.85% |  52.17% |
| 4    | Avalugg             |   22 |  18.03% |  50.00% |
| 5    | Bronzong            |   21 |  17.21% |  52.38% |
| 6    | Toxtricity          |   21 |  17.21% |  57.14% |
| 7    | Diancie             |   20 |  16.39% |  45.00% |
| 8    | Oricorio-Sensu      |   20 |  16.39% |  55.00% |
| 9    | Toxicroak           |   20 |  16.39% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Cinccino            |   19 |  15.57% |  57.89% |
| 11   | Registeel           |   18 |  14.75% |  55.56% |
| 12   | Slowbro-Galar       |   16 |  13.11% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Kilowattrel         |   15 |  12.30% |  53.33% |
| 14   | Vaporeon            |   15 |  12.30% |  60.00% |
| 15   | Chandelure          |   15 |  12.30% |  46.67% |
| 16   | Incineroar          |   15 |  12.30% |  60.00% |
| 17   | Ninetales-Alola     |   14 |  11.48% |  42.86% |
| 18   | Gligar              |   14 |  11.48% |  64.29% |
| 19   | Amoonguss           |   13 |  10.66% |  61.54% |
| 20   | Basculegion         |   13 |  10.66% |  46.15% |
| 21   | Altaria             |   12 |   9.84% |  58.33% |
| 22   | Gastrodon           |   11 |   9.02% |  63.64% |
| 23   | Sylveon             |   11 |   9.02% |  45.45% |
| 24   | Scream Tail         |   11 |   9.02% |  45.45% |
| 25   | Copperajah          |   10 |   8.20% |  70.00% |
| 26   | Tsareena            |   10 |   8.20% |  40.00% |
| 27   | Scyther             |   10 |   8.20% |  40.00% |
| 28   | Thwackey            |   10 |   8.20% |  40.00% |
| 29   | Inteleon            |    9 |   7.38% |  44.44% |
| 30   | Swampert            |    9 |   7.38% |  55.56% |
| 31   | Grafaiai            |    9 |   7.38% |  44.44% |
| 32   | Hitmonlee           |    9 |   7.38% |  44.44% |
| 33   | Ditto               |    8 |   6.56% |  62.50% |
| 34   | Decidueye           |    8 |   6.56% |  50.00% |
| 35   | Cetitan             |    8 |   6.56% |  75.00% |
| 36   | Munkidori           |    7 |   5.74% |  57.14% |
| 37   | Tentacruel          |    7 |   5.74% |  28.57% |
| 38   | Sandslash-Alola     |    7 |   5.74% |  57.14% |
| 39   | Porygon2            |    6 |   4.92% |  16.67% |
| 40   | Staraptor           |    6 |   4.92% |  66.67% |
| 41   | Orthworm            |    6 |   4.92% |  33.33% |
| 42   | Espeon              |    6 |   4.92% |  66.67% |
| 43   | Muk-Alola           |    5 |   4.10% |  60.00% |
| 44   | Raikou              |    5 |   4.10% |  40.00% |
| 45   | Tauros-Paldea-Blaze |    5 |   4.10% |  40.00% |
| 46   | Meloetta            |    5 |   4.10% |  60.00% |
| 47   | Scrafty             |    5 |   4.10% |  40.00% |
| 48   | Houndstone          |    5 |   4.10% |  60.00% |
| 49   | Arcanine            |    5 |   4.10% |  60.00% |
| 50   | Infernape           |    5 |   4.10% |  80.00% |
| 51   | Tornadus            |    5 |   4.10% |   0.00% |
| 52   | Porygon-Z           |    5 |   4.10% |  80.00% |
| 53   | Heracross           |    4 |   3.28% |  50.00% |
| 54   | Uxie                |    4 |   3.28% |  25.00% |
| 55   | Articuno-Galar      |    4 |   3.28% | 100.00% |
| 56   | Flamigo             |    4 |   3.28% |  50.00% |
| 57   | Drednaw             |    4 |   3.28% |  50.00% |
| 58   | Duraludon           |    3 |   2.46% |  33.33% |
| 59   | Mudsdale            |    3 |   2.46% | 100.00% |
| 60   | Ambipom             |    3 |   2.46% |  66.67% |
| 61   | Hariyama            |    3 |   2.46% |  66.67% |
| 62   | Galvantula          |    3 |   2.46% |  66.67% |
| 63   | Brambleghast        |    3 |   2.46% |   0.00% |
| 64   | Persian-Alola       |    2 |   1.64% |  50.00% |
| 65   | Breloom             |    2 |   1.64% |  50.00% |
| 66   | Torterra            |    2 |   1.64% |   0.00% |
| 67   | Golurk              |    2 |   1.64% |   0.00% |
| 68   | Tauros              |    2 |   1.64% |   0.00% |
| 69   | Milotic             |    2 |   1.64% |   0.00% |
| 70   | Scovillain          |    2 |   1.64% |   0.00% |
| 71   | Venusaur            |    2 |   1.64% |   0.00% |
| 72   | Dipplin             |    2 |   1.64% |  50.00% |
| 73   | Swalot              |    2 |   1.64% |  50.00% |
| 74   | Wo-Chien            |    2 |   1.64% |   0.00% |
| 75   | Vileplume           |    2 |   1.64% |  50.00% |
| 76   | Braviary-Hisui      |    2 |   1.64% |  50.00% |
| 77   | Bombirdier          |    2 |   1.64% |   0.00% |
| 78   | Froslass            |    2 |   1.64% |  50.00% |
| 79   | Bellibolt           |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 80   | Palossand           |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 81   | Zoroark             |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 82   | Dragalge            |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 83   | Mismagius           |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 84   | Bastiodon           |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 85   | Goodra              |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 86   | Rhydon              |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 87   | Whimsicott          |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 88   | Lurantis            |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 89   | Malamar             |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 90   | Passimian           |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 91   | Smeargle            |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 92   | Sneasel-Hisui       |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 93   | Cramorant           |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 94   | Drifblim            |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 95   | Florges-Blue        |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 96   | Lycanroc            |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 97   | Leavanny            |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 98   | Ludicolo            |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 99   | Overqwil            |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 100  | Typhlosion-Hisui    |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 101  | Brute Bonnet        |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 102  | Mesprit             |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 103  | Volbeat             |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 104  | Avalugg-Hisui       |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 105  | Abomasnow           |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 106  | Dudunsparce         |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 107  | Pawmot              |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 108  | Kingdra             |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |
| 109  | Minior-Indigo       |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 110  | Virizion            |    1 |   0.82% | 100.00% |
| 111  | Rotom-Heat          |    1 |   0.82% |   0.00% |

Some things I thought were interesting:

• Gligar climbing back up in usage and with a 66.67% winrate. Mienshao (and it's ice coverage) leaving means it's got a lot more viable, and Spikes are as good as ever
• Avalugg second in usage, mostly to counter Snow and Cetitan. 46% isn't the best winrate but it's passable.
• Speaking of Snow, Ninetales-Alola is at is at 13% usage and 44% winrate, while Cetitan is at 8.7% usage and 66.67% winrate. Potentially this indicates that Cetitan is the broken element not Ninetales? But also that the perceived dominance of these threats is not quite panning out in tournament play. Are they being overprepped for and people aren't bringing them? Or are they too matchup dependent to justify bringing often?
• On terrain, Thwackey has 7.25% usage and 40% winrate, while Oricorio-Sensu has 15.22% usage and 57.14% winrate. Terrain seems to be underperforming while Oricorio is showing it's more than viable outside of terrain.
• Cinccino, one of the main Oricorio enablers for non boots sets, is at similar stats with 15.94% usage and 54.55% winrate.
• Copperajah and Staraptor both have >70% winrates with decent amounts of games. Are these going to keep gaining more usage with the great winrates?

Of course, stats aren't everything, but these are all interesting trends to observe. Does anything else stand out to you from these stats? It'll be interesting to compare this to ladder usage in a few days time, although that will be somewhat skewed by Mienshao usage earlier in the month.

 

[Stories]

There are three core elements to the Snow playstyle that is currently warping the metagame.

While all of them play a key role in enacting this strategy, one of these elements is a clear candidate for tiering action.

Cetitan is the star of these teams. Every other member is a cog in the machine dedicated to enabling Cetitan to win, and generally if Cetitan fails the team will lose miserably. Simply speaking this is because Cetitan lacks splashable counterplay. Avalugg is probably the best check to Cetitan because of its insane bulk and defense boost in the snow, but it can still lose to about any Tera type, especially if Cetitan has Superpower instead of Earthquake. Cetitan getting Knock in the DLC also gave it the ultimate midground move.

Ninetales is the partner in crime here, setting up Snow for Cetitan which boosts its speed and its defense, and this isn't even factoring Aurora Veil (although Light Clay is thankfully banned). Ninetales is still used by itself without Cetitan and proves to be a healthy addition to the metagame outside of this warping playstyle. Abomasnow served this role before Ninetales dropped but that Pokemon is just straight up trash, it always has been. Using a healthy, real Pokemon instead of a trash one is a huge upgrade for snow teams.

Cinccino is just a hyper offense enabler in general, as it baits in physical walls to Knock Off and damage them and, more importantly, removes entry hazards not only for Cetitan but other scary sweepers like Oricorio-G and Scyther. Cinccino has been controversial even outside of this meta due to its sheer power alone alongside its ability to facilitate other threats, but personally I find the natural speed, Encore and Ghost immunity, and hazard removal that isn't a bad Pokemon pretty refreshing and a nice edition to the tier and I much prefer seeing Scyther-Cinccino cores than Terrain BS as the staple offense core of the tier

So now we're at the point where we decide which element we remove to nerf the playstyle, and while I thought the answer was obvious it seems some people disagree. It's basic tiering philosophy that you ban the problematic element rather than the enablers of it, at least until the enablers begin to facilitate too many threats at once (think Indeedee-F in SSNU). While Ninetales and Cinccino's support do enable Cetitan to reach the heights it's currently at, it's still Cetitan doing the dirty work, and thus it should be banned, not Cinccino and DEFINITELY not Ninetales (Ninetales should not be in the conversation). If Cinccino ends up falling into that Indeedee example I gave where it simply facilitates too much (which I could see happening) then sure, ban Cinccino, but for the topic of snow teams Cetitan is the only answer.

Also ban Oricorio-G

Metagame Post in thread 'NP: Stage 1 - Let It Snow, Let It Snow, Let It Snow (Florges Ban Post #47)'

Mar 6, 2023

Hello friends! I've been granted the chance to present the next council slate made this weekend, made in part to the recent March tier shifts, introducing Abomasnow, Bombirdier, Dachsbun, and the one who's fate I'm sure you're all most curious about, Cetitan.

Ban Slate

As a result, both Cetitan and Oricorio-Sensu are now banned from SV NeverUsed. tagging Kris and Marty to implement please and thank you :3

Cetitan is an incredibly volatile Pokemon, with amazing bulk and easy support granted from Abomasnow and others allowing it...

• Stories

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[Be13costa]

I played 40 games this morning of hard snow with all mons stories mentioned. Just to write this.

I won 33.

Lost

3 to lugg
2 to Diamond Storm Diancie (Use tera Dark, if I was ground probably would have won)
1 to a Flair Blitz crit on tails turn 1
1 to hard TR team.

In the end is pretty obvious that either you have the tools to prevent to setup or sweep in the Lugg case or you dont and you kind of just auto lose.

is much faster so it set veil before it is hit in combination with the fairy type make it much more reliable and enables more entries points that Aboma can't accomplish .

is great in general, it has dmg, setup, hazard removal, koff... Is the ultimate HO enabler.

Honestly Snow is cheap on ladder and restrictive to tour play ban Titan no one would care for A-Slash snow...

 

[BolTingBlazie]

View attachment 708366
There are three core elements to the Snow playstyle that is currently warping the metagame.

While all of them play a key role in enacting this strategy, one of these elements is a clear candidate for tiering action.

Cetitan is the star of these teams. Every other member is a cog in the machine dedicated to enabling Cetitan to win, and generally if Cetitan fails the team will lose miserably. Simply speaking this is because Cetitan lacks splashable counterplay. Avalugg is probably the best check to Cetitan because of its insane bulk and defense boost in the snow, but it can still lose to about any Tera type, especially if Cetitan has Superpower instead of Earthquake. Cetitan getting Knock in the DLC also gave it the ultimate midground move.

Ninetales is the partner in crime here, setting up Snow for Cetitan which boosts its speed and its defense, and this isn't even factoring Aurora Veil (although Light Clay is thankfully banned). Ninetales is still used by itself without Cetitan and proves to be a healthy addition to the metagame outside of this warping playstyle. Abomasnow served this role before Ninetales dropped but that Pokemon is just straight up trash, it always has been. Using a healthy, real Pokemon instead of a trash one is a huge upgrade for snow teams.

Cinccino is just a hyper offense enabler in general, as it baits in physical walls to Knock Off and damage them and, more importantly, removes entry hazards not only for Cetitan but other scary sweepers like Oricorio-G and Scyther. Cinccino has been controversial even outside of this meta due to its sheer power alone alongside its ability to facilitate other threats, but personally I find the natural speed, Encore and Ghost immunity, and hazard removal that isn't a bad Pokemon pretty refreshing and a nice edition to the tier and I much prefer seeing Scyther-Cinccino cores than Terrain BS as the staple offense core of the tier

So now we're at the point where we decide which element we remove to nerf the playstyle, and while I thought the answer was obvious it seems some people disagree. It's basic tiering philosophy that you ban the problematic element rather than the enablers of it, at least until the enablers begin to facilitate too many threats at once (think Indeedee-F in SSNU). While Ninetales and Cinccino's support do enable Cetitan to reach the heights it's currently at, it's still Cetitan doing the dirty work, and thus it should be banned, not Cinccino and DEFINITELY not Ninetales (Ninetales should not be in the conversation). If Cinccino ends up falling into that Indeedee example I gave where it simply facilitates too much (which I could see happening) then sure, ban Cinccino, but for the topic of snow teams Cetitan is the only answer.

Also ban Oricorio-G

Metagame Post in thread 'NP: Stage 1 - Let It Snow, Let It Snow, Let It Snow (Florges Ban Post #47)'

Mar 6, 2023

Hello friends! I've been granted the chance to present the next council slate made this weekend, made in part to the recent March tier shifts, introducing Abomasnow, Bombirdier, Dachsbun, and the one who's fate I'm sure you're all most curious about, Cetitan.

Ban Slate

As a result, both Cetitan and Oricorio-Sensu are now banned from SV NeverUsed. tagging Kris and Marty to implement please and thank you :3

Cetitan is an incredibly volatile Pokemon, with amazing bulk and easy support granted from Abomasnow and others allowing it...

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I would say ban cetitan, keep an eye on cinccino and maybe suspect it later, and a9 is probably fine?

I think cetitan has enough of a history of being an oppressive snow sweeper in the lower tiers under veil to where its probably the most oppressive element, as we can see that playing out now that NU has the greatest veil setter it could ever ask for

 

[etern]

As I mentioned in the NU Discord this week, a council slate has taken place on Cetitan / Ninetales-Alola / and Oricorio-Sensu following community feedback we have received since the beginning of the month. Thank you to Stories Diamonds_realm LessThanThreeMan and sufys for voting with us as part of the Rotating Council for this month. The results are now finalized and as follows:

Thus, Oricorio-Sensu has been banned from SV NU via majority. dhelmise Marty (thank you!)

Given that Cetitan received 6/12 votes on this slate, we will be closely monitoring him and may proceed with a suspect test targetting snow in the very near future. Let us know how you feel about Cetitan, Ninetales-Alola, and Snow in general. Stay tuned for more tiering news sometime within the next week and enjoy laddering with one less cringe bird.

 

[Yech]

As a ladder player who doesn't ever get drafted for tours, I do want to know more about the Oricorio Sensu ban and what made it metagame warping. I would assume it's the same sets and matchups that Pom-Pom had, just a bit toned down due to a bigger weakness to Incineroar, A-Muk, and the other darks of the tier which, combined with snow's huge popularity on ladder, explains why it's a tour demon but seldom seen on the ladder. I am glad that this got banned before ladder caught wind of it.

 

[Django]

As a ladder player who doesn't ever get drafted for tours, I do want to know more about the Oricorio Sensu ban and what made it metagame warping. I would assume it's the same sets and matchups that Pom-Pom had, just a bit toned down due to a bigger weakness to Incineroar, A-Muk, and the other darks of the tier which, combined with snow's huge popularity on ladder, explains why it's a tour demon but seldom seen on the ladder. I am glad that this got banned before ladder caught wind of it.

I wanted to post to talk about all three votes so this is a good prompt, thanks.

Oricorio-Sensu
This thing has been doing more or less the exact same thing Pom-Pom did, but with arguably a better offensive set alongside it, in exchange for needing to Tera quicker vs threats like Incin. The Revelation Dance / Hurricane sets (sometimes running Tera Ghost, sometimes running Tera Fight) are extremely potent late game cleaners, while the Tera Steel Air Slash / Taunt sets can 6-0 a lot of balance teams off preview just like Pom-Pom did. These sets popped up a lot on Terrain teams with Grassy Seed, but we also saw Kee Berry + Cinccino teams use it as a HO option to shut down balance / fat. The winrate of Sensu was actually much higher than Terrain, so this set diversity was a real effect and made it almost impossible to deal with consistently as the two sets have almost entirely different checks and counters. A few decent checks like Copperajah and Incineroar were insanely easy to chip down into range where Sensu can handle them, and the lack of good Dragon Tail users meant options like Dundunsparce and AV Flygon start getting considered again. Taken together, it's easy to see why this was almost a unanimous decision to ban. A matchup fish mon like this getting up to 10th in usage in tournament play is kind of crazy and indicates how unhealthy it was.

Ninetales-Alola
The new drop to the tier, it's understandable to see why this is coming into question. It's coincided with a big focus on Snow teams, being notably more useful than Abomasnow. It's also useful outside of Snow, with Veil, fast Encore, Nasty Plot and STAB Blizzard all being extremely good. A natural Defense boost in Snow also makes it surprisingly bulky if invested in HP. None of these traits tip it over the edge into gamebreaking though, and it's got a tough decision to make on whether to run bulk or Special Attack. Without investment it hits like a noodle and offensive sets are very frail. It also can't fit all of Encore / NP / Veil / Blizzard / Moonblast / Tera coverage and without investing in Tera is utterly walled by Steels, and even then it might have to pick something sub optimal like Fire to hit Bronzong. While it does enable a few new HO options, I don't think alone it's doing anything noteworthy enough to justify a ban.

Cetitan
Now the most controversial option, and an extremely close 6-6 vote. I was pretty much 50-50 on banning this, and ended up erring on the side of caution because I wasn't totally convinced it needed to be banned, especially without a suspect. The most commonly cited argument for banning this I've seen is the pressure it places on teambuilding. You're forced to run a very limited number of mons to deal with it - Avalugg being the first that comes to mind, but several others like Othworm, Rotom-H, Bronzong, Prankster Klefki or Aqua Jet / Mach Punch, or Ditto. Cetitan can invalidate most of these either with coverage (Superpower or Tera, or even just Knock Off), bulk while behind Veil, and its own priority.

However, I think looking at Cetitan solely through the lens of "How do I beat it when it is +6, 75% HP after Sitrus Berry, behind Aurora Veil with 2 turns left, with 5 turns left of Snow, and with Tera still available" is a bit of a fools game, and the focus should be on stopping it getting to that point. If you DO let all of those things happen, quite frankly it is a skill issue. If your team is so passive or you play so passive that throughout the game you have not forced a tera, you didn't keep any hazards up, you didn't switch to anything proactive or something with Roar / Haze / Encore / Trick / Status while Ninetales is setting up Veil, and you also didn't hit Cetitan for 30-60% HP while its clicking Belly Drum then you deserve to lose the game. The turns when someone is going to go for a Cetitan sweep are also very telegraphed and should be seen coming.

Cetitan only has room for 3 moves, so picking between Ice STAB, Ice Shard, Earthquake, Knock Off, Superpower, and Tera Blast is very hard. It can't ever run Substitute to dodge status. If it drops priority, stalling out Snow turns then revenge killing it is very viable. If it doesn't drop priority, stalling snow turns then going to something faster which resists Ice like Tauros or Basc is fine. If it drops Superpower it is hard walled by Basc, and if it drops Knock then Bronzong walls it.

There's also the fact that all of those same interactions existed with Abomasnow, and Cetitan was viable (it got a win in SCL) but never talked about as problematic. Ninetales > Aboma is definitely an upgrade, but not one that invalidates any of this counterplay or stops proactively preventing Cetitan setting up.

Overall, I've been building teams without relying on it's very limited list of defensive checks and been fine with it. I've certainly lost games where my opp has positioned better than me around Cetitan, but that's true for a lot of threats. If this was simple to do then I expect it would be seeing a lot more tournament play than it is right now, similar to how we saw Sun absolutely dominate during NUPL.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I wanted to post to talk about all three votes so this is a good prompt, thanks.

Oricorio-Sensu
This thing has been doing more or less the exact same thing Pom-Pom did, but with arguably a better offensive set alongside it, in exchange for needing to Tera quicker vs threats like Incin. The Revelation Dance / Hurricane sets (sometimes running Tera Ghost, sometimes running Tera Fight) are extremely potent late game cleaners, while the Tera Steel Air Slash / Taunt sets can 6-0 a lot of balance teams off preview just like Pom-Pom did. These sets popped up a lot on Terrain teams with Grassy Seed, but we also saw Kee Berry + Cinccino teams use it as a HO option to shut down balance / fat. The winrate of Sensu was actually much higher than Terrain, so this set diversity was a real effect and made it almost impossible to deal with consistently as the two sets have almost entirely different checks and counters. A few decent checks like Copperajah and Incineroar were insanely easy to chip down into range where Sensu can handle them, and the lack of good Dragon Tail users meant options like Dundunsparce and AV Flygon start getting considered again. Taken together, it's easy to see why this was almost a unanimous decision to ban. A matchup fish mon like this getting up to 10th in usage in tournament play is kind of crazy and indicates how unhealthy it was.

Ninetales-Alola
The new drop to the tier, it's understandable to see why this is coming into question. It's coincided with a big focus on Snow teams, being notably more useful than Abomasnow. It's also useful outside of Snow, with Veil, fast Encore, Nasty Plot and STAB Blizzard all being extremely good. A natural Defense boost in Snow also makes it surprisingly bulky if invested in HP. None of these traits tip it over the edge into gamebreaking though, and it's got a tough decision to make on whether to run bulk or Special Attack. Without investment it hits like a noodle and offensive sets are very frail. It also can't fit all of Encore / NP / Veil / Blizzard / Moonblast / Tera coverage and without investing in Tera is utterly walled by Steels, and even then it might have to pick something sub optimal like Fire to hit Bronzong. While it does enable a few new HO options, I don't think alone it's doing anything noteworthy enough to justify a ban.

Cetitan
Now the most controversial option, and an extremely close 6-6 vote. I was pretty much 50-50 on banning this, and ended up erring on the side of caution because I wasn't totally convinced it needed to be banned, especially without a suspect. The most commonly cited argument for banning this I've seen is the pressure it places on teambuilding. You're forced to run a very limited number of mons to deal with it - Avalugg being the first that comes to mind, but several others like Othworm, Rotom-H, Bronzong, Prankster Klefki or Aqua Jet / Mach Punch, or Ditto. Cetitan can invalidate most of these either with coverage (Superpower or Tera, or even just Knock Off), bulk while behind Veil, and its own priority.

However, I think looking at Cetitan solely through the lens of "How do I beat it when it is +6, 75% HP after Sitrus Berry, behind Aurora Veil with 2 turns left, with 5 turns left of Snow, and with Tera still available" is a bit of a fools game, and the focus should be on stopping it getting to that point. If you DO let all of those things happen, quite frankly it is a skill issue. If your team is so passive or you play so passive that throughout the game you have not forced a tera, you didn't keep any hazards up, you didn't switch to anything proactive or something with Roar / Haze / Encore / Trick / Status while Ninetales is setting up Veil, and you also didn't hit Cetitan for 30-60% HP while its clicking Belly Drum then you deserve to lose the game. The turns when someone is going to go for a Cetitan sweep are also very telegraphed and should be seen coming.

Cetitan only has room for 3 moves, so picking between Ice STAB, Ice Shard, Earthquake, Knock Off, Superpower, and Tera Blast is very hard. It can't ever run Substitute to dodge status. If it drops priority, stalling out Snow turns then revenge killing it is very viable. If it doesn't drop priority, stalling snow turns then going to something faster which resists Ice like Tauros or Basc is fine. If it drops Superpower it is hard walled by Basc, and if it drops Knock then Bronzong walls it.

There's also the fact that all of those same interactions existed with Abomasnow, and Cetitan was viable (it got a win in SCL) but never talked about as problematic. Ninetales > Aboma is definitely an upgrade, but not one that invalidates any of this counterplay or stops proactively preventing Cetitan setting up.

Overall, I've been building teams without relying on it's very limited list of defensive checks and been fine with it. I've certainly lost games where my opp has positioned better than me around Cetitan, but that's true for a lot of threats. If this was simple to do then I expect it would be seeing a lot more tournament play than it is right now, similar to how we saw Sun absolutely dominate during NUPL.

I do think having to deal with cetitan is quite constraining though and most people see it as the problem with snow so a suspect should be in order

 

[Lucario]

If you DO let all of those things happen, quite frankly it is a skill issue. If your team is so passive or you play so passive that throughout the game you have not forced a tera, you didn't keep any hazards up, you didn't switch to anything proactive or something with Roar / Haze / Encore / Trick / Status while Ninetales is setting up Veil, and you also didn't hit Cetitan for 30-60% HP while its clicking Belly Drum then you deserve to lose the game. The turns when someone is going to go for a Cetitan sweep are also very telegraphed and should be seen coming.

I'm sorry but this is a very horrible take. It takes 0 skill to set up with Cetitan, regardless of Aurora Veil. You can't expect everyone and every team to force hazards up, keep them up, break through Veil + Cetitan, phase, etc while not losing to something else. Sure, Klefki can use Thunder Wave, but what does it do if Cetitan clicks Tera Ground the same turn? How do you manage to keep Spikes up while also keeping the Air Balloon long enough to win the 1v1 with Cetitan? I get that you're trying to say that Cetitan requires a lot of support, but so does every single Pokemon. Cetitan is able to be ran alongside a great pivot in Flygon, the best hazard removal in Cinccino, and the utility queen Alolatales. These Pokemon set Cetitan up for more than success, not to mention whatever else it partners with.

Cetitan not getting banned after a month of dominating ladder is laughable, especially while Oricorio-Sensu gets banned after seeing 1 week of tour success. There's no harm in banning an obviously broken and constricting Pokemon, so why does it get to stay around for longer? Cetitan forces too many restraints on the builder, and if you don't have one or two of a very, very small pool of "checks", then you will lose to it. If this is the direction we are going with tiering, then Sensu should not have gotten banned because you can run Diancie or Rhydon to check it, gg.

 

[Django]

I'm sorry but this is a very horrible take. It takes 0 skill to set up with Cetitan, regardless of Aurora Veil. You can't expect everyone and every team to force hazards up, keep them up, break through Veil + Cetitan, phase, etc while not losing to something else. Sure, Klefki can use Thunder Wave, but what does it do if Cetitan clicks Tera Ground the same turn? How do you manage to keep Spikes up while also keeping the Air Balloon long enough to win the 1v1 with Cetitan? I get that you're trying to say that Cetitan requires a lot of support, but so does every single Pokemon. Cetitan is able to be ran alongside a great pivot in Flygon, the best hazard removal in Cinccino, and the utility queen Alolatales. These Pokemon set Cetitan up for more than success, not to mention whatever else it partners with.

Cetitan not getting banned after a month of dominating ladder is laughable, especially while Oricorio-Sensu gets banned after seeing 1 week of tour success. There's no harm in banning an obviously broken and constricting Pokemon, so why does it get to stay around for longer? Cetitan forces too many restraints on the builder, and if you don't have one or two of a very, very small pool of "checks", then you will lose to it. If this is the direction we are going with tiering, then Sensu should not have gotten banned because you can run Diancie or Rhydon to check it, gg.

I'm not suggesting you do all of these things, but doing any single one of them significantly reduces Cetitan's potency. Klefki is a single check so can't be your only Cetitan counterplay, but if you're in a position 1v1 with Cetitan (who still has Tera) and your best answer is clicking T-Wave with Klefki, hoping it doesn't Tera ground, then you likely got outplayed the rest of the game. The point I'm trying to make is Cetitan doesn't exist in a vacuum, and for a mon which has no true hard counters, you can't assess it by just looking at very specific scenarios. You have to look at the team around it, and Cetitan DOES require a lot of support to work effectively - so your teams should focus on abusing that support rather than reacting to Cetitan once it's at +6.

Is the support too good? That's a different question and one I'd argue maybe yes it is in the case of Cinccino...without guaranteed hazard removal a lot of these problems become a lot less significant.

Basing an argument solely around how to beat Cetitan once it's set up isn't realistic because it requires multiple turns, specific teammates, and is very telegraphed. I'll be interested to see the ladder stats in the next few days because it hasn't felt to me like it's dominating ladder, but I'll happily be proven wrong on that.

 

[Be13costa]

The Sensu ban is expected. How much time until we ban the pink one?

As for no action in Snow I understand but disagree. Never was that easy to get mileage of the snow setter and yes Cetitan needs support but it's auto build in the style, the gains are insane and only veil most of the time is enough.

It's a strange thing because NU is complaining about it because how badly it beats the tier staples, but that's the natural cycle. Eventually new cores that beat snow and aren't that weak vs other top threats maybe emerge. Do you remember how much time it took to people to figure zong? It was exclusively a Cress counter but became a tier staple.

Lugg isn't that bad but easily Exploitable. The lack of a Unaware mon hurts a lot atm. Red card is hard to make it work because of the sheer dmg it makes... I don't know how will we adapt. Atm is broken and ban deserving for sure. Let's see if in the short time what will we come with.

 

[Diamonds_realm]

I want to talk about my reason for voting ban on alolan ninetales and not cetitan (though I had considered voting ban on both)

So tales is of course a superior setter for snow and veil than abomasnow with its higher speed tier and access to encore, and this enables veil offense teams as a whole much more strongly as tales can easily find more opportunities to set veil in a match so its sweepers have even further room to boost up and break, not to mention tales having the potential to run nasty plot instead of encore which can clean up teams late game whose checks have already be weakened or removed by its teammates but plot sets are not that main point of why I voted ban. Tales bulk is surprising close with abomasnow in terms of BST with abomasnows 90/85/85 and tales 73/85/100, and tales being able to more easily get veil off before being attacked due to its much better speed makes it practically bulkier than abomasnow, meaning coupled with encore it will often survive to get 1-2 occasionally even 3 more veils for its team to work with over what abomasnow could get them in a match, and while cetitan is of course easily splashable on these types of team, I think the main issue is the increased abundance of veil empowering the archetype further as a whole. As for why I considered voting ban on cetitan as well but ultimately ended up DNB, I could see the meta shifting in way where cetitan could be viewed as problematic again even after a tales ban but the more and more that I gave thought to it, the more I felt I was diving too far into speculation territory and did not feel confident voting ban on cetitan at this time, and would rather give a chance to have seen it in action first.