Metagame np: Stage 10: The Man with the Machine Gun (Inteleon Banned)

[asa]

thanks to ishtar for writing like 99% of this

~~~

The PU council has decided to suspect test Inteleon following our recent vote on it and Raikou.

Combining powerful STAB moves, serviceable coverage, and Speed, Choice Specs Inteleon excels as one of the most threatening special breakers of PU. Its ability to threaten most of the meta for neutral damage with Water/Ice coverage combined with its base 120 Speed means that Inteleon isn’t only strong, its also difficult to revenge kill. Such Speed allows it to revenge kill fast Pokemon such as Salazzle, Zoroark, Delphox, the Paldean Tauros formes, as well as others. Inteleon is defensively checked by a good amount of slow Pokemon, though, such as Milotic, Gastrodon, Wo-Chien, and Goodra, and some less sturdy checks include Florges, AV Galarian Slowbro, Decidueye, Paldean Tauros-W, and Tatsugiri. The issue with some of these defensive answers are twofold: U-turn allows Inteleon to gain momentum on all of these Pokemon, and considering its high speed, it is very likely to force switches and capitalize with U-turn. The other is its ability to use Tera Blast Grass to bypass would-be checks such as Gastrodon and Paldean Tauros-W or simply tear through neutral targets (and even some resistant foes) with Tera Water Hydro Pump. All of this combined means that Inteleon is equally capable of threatening offensive and defensive structures, which is concerning to many considering that other devastating breakers like Golurk really only excel versus slower teams.

Some of these interactions can sometimes be telegraphed, though, allowing the opposing player to play around Inteleon’s limitations. Due to its poor bulk, it is also revenge killed by strong priority from the likes of a boosted Arcanine or Decidueye, as well as by faster threats such as Speed Booster Scream Tail, Kilowattrel, and Hisuian Electrode in addition to Choice Scarf users such as Flamigo, Paldean Tauros formes, etc. While opponents have to tread carefully around Inteleon, it has to do a fair bit of prediction itself to successfully break, and even then, Hydro Pump's imperfect accuracy occasionally sabotages it anyway. Despite this, the guessing games Inteleon forces and the multitude of opportunities it has to attack make it a formidable and potentially problematic threat in PU. Now it is up to you to decide how to move forward with this guy.

~~~
​

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to 78 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

Suspect information:

• There will be no draws allowed for any potential qualifiers. If you qualify with draws, your suspect requirements will not count, and you will not be allowed to vote. There is no way to actively enforce ties to prevent abuse, so they will be disallowed. Use stall at your own risk.
• All games must be played on the Pokémon Showdown! PU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "PUIN (nickname)”. For example, PUIN asa or PUIN shitar.
• Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokémon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
• The suspect test will last for 13 days, ending on Saturday, July 20th at 11:59pm (GMT -4).

/!\ NOTICE /!\ PU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. For more query, feel free to PM me or ishtar.

 

[ishtar]

We will be hosting two suspect tours this weekend. Join the PU room tournament and win to get reqs on Inteleon!

Saturday 8am -4 hosted by PTF
Sunday 5pm -4 hosted by Hera

Give it your best shot heheheheh

 

[asa]

Brief post, I'm not a huge fan of Inteleon's presence in the tier. I don't think it's wildly broken or anything, but Choice Specs Surf/Hydro Pump off of 372 Speed is really hard to guard against without an immunity or some loser blob like Wo-Chien, and U-turn lets it easily take advantage of these anyway. The option to Tera Water and just slam neutral targets like AV Glowbro and SpDef Florges is also pretty punishing if you do opt not to use an immunity, which ends up limiting building if you want to consistently handle Inteleon. With how well Inteleon synergizes with and enables other pivots, too, it's easier to accidentally let in for free than its bulk would suggest and constantly looping you in lose/lose situations. All this makes the room for error against Inteleon really low, while it can reasonably afford to guess wrong once (even twice sometimes). Counterplay is absolutely there, both offensively and defensively, and obviously stuff like Gastrodon, Milotic, Tatsugiri, etc. would still be good in a post-Inteleon meta. Even niche stuff like Toxicroak can be used to check Inteleon without being total deadweight otherwise. That said, Inteleon feels a tad too overcentralizing for my tastes and does more harm than good to the tier, especially considering we do have healthier breakers that can cover multiple playstyles (Paldean Tauros formes, Staraptor, Decidueye, etc).

 

[DugZa]

Another brief post to share some quick thoughts (and hot takes maybe?); I agree with pretty much everything that's said about it. It's checks are linear (Gastrodon/Milotic 90% of the time) and how that forces building to be a certain way, at least for the Balance/BO teams. The speed tier is amazing and the few Pokemon that do outspeed it have fallen off a bit which helps it more. All that said, I'm on the fence right now but I'm slightly leaning towards DNB side which probably sounds weird given I said I agree with everything above but this is solely because of how I've felt about it while actually using or facing it in-game rather than focusing on the on-paper factors. I've never really felt it to be overbearing to face or broken while using it. I don't like using win-rates much for discussions but it only got used 11 times between the first 2 weeks of PUPL (7 in week 1, 4 in week 2) out of 64 teams and only won three(?) of those games. Also I feel like the Gastrodon/Milotic being on every team argument might be overblown a bit? I think those two will still be top-tier Pokemon regardless of Inteleon being here or not. I also think people need to explore other checks and ways to deal with it instead of fixating on Gastrodon and Milotic alone, stuff like Goodra, SpD Decidueye, Wo-Chien, AV Glowbro, Tatsugiri and more are all decent checks depending on the Inteleon set. Its limited move pool also means defensive teras can also really catch it off guard like we saw here since its clicking a Water move 90% of the time. But yeah, most of my reasoning for DNB right now is that I don't think its broken in practice even though the on-paper factors say otherwise but maybe I'll change my mind watching the PUPL games over the next week or so!

 

[Bella]

Ok so, as someone who already got reqs, I'm honestly leaning towards a DNB vote on it. Alot of what i feel about it is the same i felt about Toxtricity. There's a TON of offensive counterplay to Intel. Obviously priority from Pokemon like Arcanine / Scyther / Pawmot / Ambipom etc exist as well as naturally faster threats / choice scarf from Kilowatt / HElectrode / Staraptor / Migo / Bulls / etc exist as well. However, I think the defensive answers are even better for Inteleon than it is for Toxt. Like, people will be running Gastro, Wo-Chein, Tatsu, Milo, AV Galarbro, etc even without this Pokemon and most balance teams will probably be runnning one of these anyways. Plus, its very prediction reliant since Specs is the only really good good set since HBD is too weak miss out on alot of rolls specs really really likes (ie: getting the 2hko vs the 3hko on bulky scrafty, getting the 2hko on belli w scald, koing bombird, ohkoing deci w ice beam, etc.) and Crithappy sets are normally done better by Agility Kingdra Focus Energy Dracospam / relies on you not getting priority killed by the tens of priority in the tier / not getting revenged by scarfers / kilowatt. Plus, as Dugza said, it honestly has not been having crazy showings in PUPL, at least compared to stuff like Florges and Hoopa. As such, im voting DNB, but I would not really mind seeing it go, just don't think it breaks the meta.

 

[fish anemometer]

I've been feeling quite strongly since about week 2 of BLT lol. Inteleon is the single most constricting force on the teambuilder and forces some begrudging teammate choices. Gastrodon, Wo-Chien and Milotic are momentum killers with their standard sets and get pivoted on, lured or crippled more and more handily as greeding with breakers specifically to target them becomes increasingly free due to inteleon forcing these super fat water resist/immunes. Tatsugiri is a nice offensive check, but is 2hkoed by coverage. Glowbro and Bellibolt have worked for some, but they must expend tera, putting themselves on the back foot vs a mon that can just pivot out. Not saying any of these are bad mons, far from it, but especially the first 3 lend themselves to much more specific teambuilding routes that you sometimes just don't want to go for.
Intel is top 5 strongest special attacker available to use in the tier, AND top 5 fastest, meaning not only is balance being chained up to passive structures, HO and offense or even just teams that try to be proactive in general suffer. The most successful HO are priority spam, anything else just gets outsped and outmuscled. Shadow ball is also a underrated 4th move on it, which can let it click easily if locking into a water move isn't ideal. Ghost is a hella spammable offensive typing (think decidueye and golurk killing everything) and with tera has perks of beating arce9.
There's been some more niche developments like toxicroak and poliwrath in PUPL, so far the ones I've played against in test games have performed poorly... I'm not convinced usage of these mons is indicative of diversity and a growing meta, quite the opposite in fact. Building with Inteleon in the tier just has perfectly fine teams need to be scrapped more than anything else. I bring this up despite my better judgement, but

not relevant to this suspect

even manual rain would have similar if not more counterplay, as the glass cannon nature of the entire rain team would make it so expending a water resisting tera early is worthwile. Meanwhile Intel's speed, power and pivoting makes it a welcome fit on ANY team style. Forfeiting a potential needed close combat/brave bird check if one were to tera early to save themselves from this wallbreaker that also outspeeds the entire unboosted tier bar trode and kilo. But for now I'll concede that a rain sus would be silly when the most problematic mon is a fast special attacking water type.... >:(

So for the sake of metagame health, diversity, pigeonholing in the teambuilder, and personal preferences wrt to how I'd like the tier to look and play like, i will be voting ban.

On the other hand, the PUPL week 1 winrate has been abysmal. I won't armchair for others, I lost my Inteleon game by playing poorly, and an Inteleon with more proper play in my game would've broken through a team with all of milotic+water bellibolt+slowbro+scarf duraludon which is absurd to think. Gastro and Milo unsurprisingly found themselves at #1 and #4 in usage that week. And week2 stats aren't up yet, but I wouldn't be surprised with even higher gastro and wo usage (raikou making milo not the team's preferred special sponge). The gastro/wo/milo spam has proven to be a reliable tournament strategy. But it does allow for some greed on the opponent's part regarding items/nature/moves of other mons. They are also forced to use the same mons, especially the wo-chien structures, making them a bit monotonous. Although if that's one's cup of tea I can understand why they wouldn't really push for a ban. Regardless, I think even the statistical data wouldn't convince me to be dnb at this moment. Although I totally understand it being enough for others. It's a beatable enough 'mon in practice when accounted for properly in the teambuilder, it's just that part definitely feels like the most restrictive part about the tier by a long shot.

Lastly another unrelated note I won't spoiler this time: while I do think banning Inteleon vastly improves the tier, there are just some things that will never go away unless shifts fix them, and will always steer (more dogmatic) teambuilding down routes it doesn't want to traverse. Like the absurdly low speed tiers of every ground type, which are supposed to be "the keystone 'mons", and the unreliability and passivity of most hazard control.

 

[MZ]

Ok so, as someone who already got reqs, I'm honestly leaning towards a DNB vote on it. Alot of what i feel about it is the same i felt about Toxtricity. There's a TON of offensive counterplay to Intel. Obviously priority from Pokemon like Arcanine / Scyther / Pawmot / Ambipom etc exist as well as naturally faster threats / choice scarf from Kilowatt / HElectrode / Staraptor / Migo / Bulls / etc exist as well. However, I think the defensive answers are even better for Inteleon than it is for Toxt. Like, people will be running Gastro, Wo-Chein, Tatsu, Milo, AV Galarbro, etc even without this Pokemon and most balance teams will probably be runnning one of these anyways. Plus, its very prediction reliant since Specs is the only really good good set since HBD is too weak miss out on alot of rolls specs really really likes (ie: getting the 2hko vs the 3hko on bulky scrafty, getting the 2hko on belli w scald, koing bombird, ohkoing deci w ice beam, etc.) and Crithappy sets are normally done better by Agility Kingdra Focus Energy Dracospam / relies on you not getting priority killed by the tens of priority in the tier / not getting revenged by scarfers / kilowatt. Plus, as Dugza said, it honestly has not been having crazy showings in PUPL, at least compared to stuff like Florges and Hoopa. As such, im voting DNB, but I would not really mind seeing it go, just don't think it breaks the meta.

I think this is a well-written and concise summary of the anti-ban sentiment that I've seen so far, but as someone who would really like this gone I've gotta break down some points. This is less specifically for Bella though and more for people on the fence about banning this in general.

1. It's like Toxtricity with offensive counterplay
   Yeah except for the speed stat. Notice the offensive counterplay you listed while calling it "a ton". 3 good priority users and one kinda meh one, but all need some solid chip and, more than likely, tera. Naturally faster threats are limited to *just* Kilowatrell and HElectrode, which are both somewhat flawed mons that owe most of their utility to Inteleon in the first place. I'm sure we'd still use them but we're not sending our best. And then it's scarfers. And we don't really have a single scarfer that isn't abusable in some way if they lock themselves into a certain move, or even take the risk of using a pivoting move with all the Helmet/Flame Body/Static around. Being forced to revenge kill after Inteleon gets a KO isn't entirely novel, but given how limited and abusable every faster option is, it makes that a real chore and heavily matchup dependent. Again compare to literally every other breaker, even something high speed like Delphox, and the differences are night and day. Losing to Scyther, Zoroark, Salazzle, and Ambipom makes a big difference (although don't get me wrong, it's defensive counters or lack thereof that sets Inteleon apart).
   
   
2. Look at all these defensive answers. We'd be running them anyway
   Would we? This much? Even if this point is true, the thing is that Inteleon is ridiculously forcing in a way nothing else is. There are *zero* stops without incredibly simple ways to abuse or predict around them. Forcing U-turn is nutty and something as simple as Inteleon U-turning into a Guts Heracross is already a brainless but incredible core due to how sluggish and predictable those fat stops need to be. Spdef Gastro is Uturned on and phys def struggles with Tera Ghost, Milo has a slightly better but similar story, AV Glowbro is cleanly 2hkod pre-tera so the best it can do is pivot in to scout the move and then you're using up Tera just to get 3hkod or pivoting to a new Water resist afterwards, Tatsu/Toxicroak can only create more 50/50s not live coverage or benefit from getting U-turned on, and Wo-Chien has to worry about U-turns and Ice Beams. Every other niche mon I've genuinely used (Poliwrath, Lanturn) still struggles with Tera Ghost or just U-turn. It's not rocket science here, and it's all backed up by point #3
   
   
3. Inteleon is prediction reliant
   Prediction reliance and matchup are things that keep Inteleon in check in individual games and deflate tour winrates but do not balance it in the builder. Inteleon is fast. Very fast. So fast that the forcing nature of these mindgames is very consistently in its favor. As much as you can say Specs Inteleon is prediction reliant, the same goes for the other team too, and it's really hard to run a prediction game when the other is the one that's always picking up the KOs or getting the big pivots. It's not conducive to a healthy or fun metagame.

I know we could keep Inteleon. I know we've been working around it for a while and we can keep doing so. But there are just so few depths to plumb because of the way Inteleon warps both building and predictions in its favor. Relative to most offenisve mons, I don't have deep pockets to go into to check Inteleon because most of them get pivoted on anyway. The coolest new thing we've got is like, AV Bro + grass with decent Spdef? And it's that or a fat water. And even then this thing has every tool it needs to warp games. Bella listed a ton of tools that do work vs Inteleon, we all know we can beat it with 50/50s and fat waters and running way more Kilowattrel than I'd ever want to otherwise. But let's just be honest with ourselves. That sucks! It's not fun or cool. It would be a better metagame if we didn't have Inteleon in it. I don't just want a functional metagame, I want the best one we can have. And I believe it's pretty clear that Inteleon is a net negative for current meta PU.

 

[Hera]

honestly i'm not really seeing what the pro-ban side is talking about when thet say intel is broken. in playing, building, and watching the mon, i am constantly disappointed by intel's performance and there is a clear disconnect between what people are saying about intel and its actual results on field. most of our intel switchins are good mons anyway (gastro is passive but super annoying, milo is great, wo-chien is good cause leech + knock is free on most teams) and we have a plethora of offensive checks between mowtom, wetbull, tastu, decid, trode, and rising mons like viriz and toxi, who would all be good and commonly used without intel. in game it's even worse; wr is a flawed stat and dugza already touched upon it so i won't be saying much about it, but like every fast offensive mon it has to scout and deal with opposing tera waters that can completely turn the game against it, and it also has to choose between its own teras of water/grass/ghost or else it struggles vs specific cores or priority. people also keep pointing to checks being u-turned on but a. there are many fast pivots in the tier, some with switchins that overlap with intel anyway such as trode, so an intel ban wouldn't meaningfully change these interactions, and b. intel cannot afford to run boots meaning it is consistently getting chipped down in a tier where we have like 3 good removal options. that's not to mention that u-turn is easier to punish than most people assume by simply staying it or even switching into a midground instead of your passive hard counter, which we have plenty of. i think people are just way too worried about the mon and it would be sad to see a healthy offensive mon that provides offensive counterplay in a tier where offense is the best playstyle and punishes some passive cores while providing more skillful games as well be banned cause it's mildly annoying in builder (no more restricting than your average top tier btw), and if we banned every mon that was mildly annoying in builder then we'd have to ban like 10 perfectly balanced mons.

on the topic of brokens:


i've been vocal about this in discord but i genuinely hate the presence these two have in the tier. this is more directed at lurk than decid and i think decid is more borderline and should've been up for a suspect over intel, but in my eyes lurk is clearly broken. the only real answer it has that doesn't get bopped by a common coverage option is that funky pivot grimm set that's been popping up on ladder; everything else is 2hkoed by its coverage options or ohkoed by stab. in a tier infested with pivots it's super easy to get in and start claiming, it has many free entry points via top mons like belli and galarbro and even coal, and the only real way to beat it is out offensing it, which i don't think is indicative of a healthy mon. i hate not being able to use anything defensive without pivot grimm and just losing to lurk cause all of our itemless mons suck and all of our staples are weak to it. it's a really skillless mon that's easy to support in builder and is extremely effective in game and i wish it was banned already. decid is also kinda busted, +2 stabs + ss ruin a lot of teams and colbur can bait your darks making them unsafe counterplay, but it admittedly does have more answers in the way of faster ghost resists/immunes and it's harder for decid to beat its switchins due to lacking coverage options.


this has kinda flown under the radar lately but it's still very effective. not knowing if it's sd or np or band or specs is a massive pain and having to play 50/50s every time a mon comes in isn't competitive. i've paired this with everything from bruxish to flamigo to toxt to scyther and won games solely cause my opponent lost the 50/50. only issue is it's hard to fit on teams sometimes, which is probably why it isn't being used more, but like lurk i don't think this has enough consistent defensive counterplay to be balanced.


idt any of these mons are broken by themselves (except toxt, we should've banned it when we had the chance), but i think the synergy they have together is too much for the tier. we simply do not have the normal resists to stand up to these mons all at once, and it's easy for them to overload their checks since our normal resists either have no recovery or get slapped by coverage. they forces lines where you have to use your normal check to beat one of them, but by the time the second or the third one comes it you're overwhelmed and you lose. none of these mons really have offensive counterplay either; a boosted scream and toxt outspeeds all of our relevant scarfers and speed control, while +1 tera normal arc espeed blasts through any faster mon that isn't a ghost or a rock or wetbell. if i had to choose i would ban toxt since arc and scream by themselves seem managable but i would also be down with banning scream as well.

 

[Hera]

congrats to open tummy (sugar ovens ) for winning the second inteleon suspect tournament!

semis 1: Hera vs open tummy
semis 2: MZ vs Tawfiq888
finals: open tummy vs MZ

bracket

 

[LOOR]

honestly i'm not really seeing what the pro-ban side is talking about when thet say intel is broken. in playing, building, and watching the mon, i am constantly disappointed by intel's performance and there is a clear disconnect between what people are saying about intel and its actual results on field.

i really could care less if its banned or not but the main point is literally about how its restricting and warping the tier. of course its performance in pupl is going to be mid when the tier is forcing itself to be hostile towards it. gastro has the highest usage rate in the tour, otherwise youre running milo/av slowbro/random grass type + a tera water + scarfer / prior.

again I have found intel to be fairly manageable in game but I completely understand and recognize how warping it is. a competitive environment like pupl is going to naturally much more hostile to the more problematic breakers just so, you know, dont get steam rolled by the mon that literally can steam roll you if you dont carefully think about its match up. the question of this test is more so if the level of prep you do for intel in the builder is healthy and sustainable for the tier long term rather than there is literally no tools to deal with it and it just smokes everything.

 

[hex]

Obviously priority from Pokemon like Arcanine / Scyther / Pawmot / Ambipom etc exist as well as naturally faster threats / choice scarf from Kilowatt / HElectrode / Staraptor / Migo / Bulls / etc exist as well. However, I think the defensive answers are even better for Inteleon than it is for Toxt. Like, people will be running Gastro, Wo-Chein, Tatsu, Milo, AV Galarbro, etc even without this Pokemon and most balance teams will probably be runnning one of these anyways.

i disagree with all of this to be blunt. in a vaccuum, yes, priority users are going to give inteleon trouble but a lot of times when i see posts like this i feel that people dont consider the way pokemon operates in general. you have 6 pokemon, and just because you have priority doesnt mean that you suddenly have inteleon counterplay. inteleon can just swap into coal or houndstone and all of these priority users are rendered useless and get put in a disadvantageous scenario. you can make the same argument with scyther/ampibom pivoting with uturn (still potentially taking ailments like flame body and static, or helm chip) or doubling with arcanine etc. but the inteleon user isnt really pressed to make the outplay in this scenario, even while its "checked" by priority. i think choice scarf kilo and electrode are very trash mons (yes subjective i know), and with limited removal in the tier and just how the hazard game is rn staraptor isnt great either (again, coal and houndstone are running around anyway). you are basically forced to run gastro / milotic every game, and even if you run other things like av bro or wo chien inteleon just uturns because much like raikou, inteleon forces most people to play reactively (obviously not on the same scale). i was gonna expand more on why i think inteleon isnt rly prediction reliant either but mz outlined that perfectly.

most of our intel switchins are good mons anyway (gastro is passive but super annoying, milo is great, wo-chien is good cause leech + knock is free on most teams)

this is something i do agree with, i dont think inteleon being gone is going to make gastrodon / milotic / wo chien etc. be less used. however, just because in theory these mons dont become less used or worse it doesnt justify keeping a warped metagame. at the very least the builder is opened up a bit and is more freeform. the meta isnt going to actively become worse or stale with inteleon gone and imo it only has a negative presence, so i dont see why we shouldnt get rid of it. like mz said, we can beat inteleon, but its done in quite a monotonous and boring way, and the tier isnt rly progressing with inteleon here. only red flag i see is golurk becoming a lot better but i dont wanna side track much. i dont think ill have time to get reqs but i think pu as a whole would greatly benefit from inteleon being gone, if it stays its kind of whatever, however i think the tier has been stale with it and its time for it to go.

 

[Hera]

this is something i do agree with, i dont think inteleon being gone is going to make gastrodon / milotic / wo chien etc. be less used. however, just because in theory these mons dont become less used or worse it doesnt justify keeping a warped metagame.

and this is where i don't see the issue. intel's a top mon surely but the prep required to beat it isn't super warping to the point we need to ban it. water resists, immunities, and even bulky checks that can take a hit are everywhere, every team is running them, and most teams would still be running them without intel in the tier. and when intel does win, it's when the opponent did not bring prep for it, which is the case for every top mon (e.g if you don't bring a ghost resist or immunity you lose to ghosts, if you don't bring a rock or steel type you lose to toxt, if you don't bring scrafty counterplay you lose to scrafty, etc). the only thing separating intel from those mons is less offensive counterplay, which is a bit of an issue, but also i think that's mainly cause people are relying as intel as their speed control anyway instead of other good mons like h-trode, scarf flamigo, and scarf dura.

idk, i just feel like people want intel gone cause it's mildly annoying in builder and idt we should tier like that, cause then we'd have to ban a bunch of other balanced mons and upend the whole meta. if people wanna do that then fine, i just don't think intel is as warping as people claim or even remotely broken, and i haven't really seen any evidence towards either of those points.

 

[hex]

and this is where i don't see the issue. intel's a top mon surely but the prep required to beat it isn't super warping to the point we need to ban it. water resists, immunities, and even bulky checks that can take a hit are everywhere, every team is running them, and most teams would still be running them without intel in the tier. and when intel does win, it's when the opponent did not bring prep for it, which is the case for every top mon (e.g if you don't bring a ghost resist or immunity you lose to ghosts, if you don't bring a rock or steel type you lose to toxt, if you don't bring scrafty counterplay you lose to scrafty, etc). the only thing separating intel from those mons is less offensive counterplay, which is a bit of an issue, but also i think that's mainly cause people are relying as intel as their speed control anyway instead of other good mons like h-trode, scarf flamigo, and scarf dura.

idk, i just feel like people want intel gone cause it's mildly annoying in builder and idt we should tier like that, cause then we'd have to ban a bunch of other balanced mons and upend the whole meta. if people wanna do that then fine, i just don't think intel is as warping as people claim or even remotely broken, and i haven't really seen any evidence towards either of those points.

sorry for anything incoherent and/or typos. ive never been very good at conveying my thoughts in these kinds of threads. alot of my response to this is just kind of what i said to bella but longer i guess? i feel like you kind of just repeated what you said before '-'

i yapped too much oops

It's incredibly hard to compare Inteleon to Toxtricity and Scrafty for several reasons. Toxtricity is decently slow, and you aren't required to dedicate a specific slot for it all the time. You don't need to run the same exact steel or rock types to counter it. I don't really feel like comparing Inteleon with Scrafty because Scrafty is a Pokémon that I think also needs to go, but that's not the point of this thread.

With Inteleon, there is genuinely no reason not to use Gastrodon. Why would you ever use Gligar or Mudsdale when you then have to dedicate another slot to swapping into Inteleon, only to get U-turned on anyway (it U-turns on Gastrodon too, lol). Again, I think H-Electrode is a Mickey Pokémon that hits like a wet noodle, and its only purpose is to Volt Switch, which does jack shit to every mon, while also needing to Tera to make any meaningful progress in my opinion. Similarly, Scarf Flamigo is not great with all the amazing physical sponges we have (Glowbro, Bellibolt, Houndstone, Altaria, etc.). The issue with these faster options is that they are easily swapped into, and you can neuter them in some form even while playing reactively. You can block H-Electrode's Volt Switch, cripple Flamigo with Helmet, Flame Body, Static, and Duraludon can't pivot with its easily wallable STAB combo, so the Duraludon player has to double, which takes more effort than using Inteleon ever will. You don't see any of these drawbacks with Inteleon. Even if you want to use Kilowattrel to revenge it, most if not all ground types don't care about swapping into it anyway, so there goes your momentum. Not to mention, if you're revenge killing it with these faster threats (I assume this is the scenario you're painting, as I don't see how else these mons are safely getting in a 1v1 with Inteleon), you're setting up a situation where you're trading a mon for Inteleon without even securing the revenge kill. It's a situation where the person playing against Inteleon is inherently behind. Obviously, that's just my interpretation of your words, but I hope my point makes sense. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but what I said in my last post to Bella still applies here: Inteleon is just going to swap. The counterplay to other threats in the meta is more splashable and plentiful compared to Inteleon counterplay. The onus of outplaying is never put on the Inteleon user, forcing you to play differently when Inteleon is on the field. I don't want to be a nerd and quote tiering policy, but the point I'm trying to make is that Inteleon is not a competitive Pokémon, period. I feel like your arguments aren't properly dissecting that. You seem to just say that bulky water checks (get vortexed) and revenge killers (implying Inteleon is always ahead anyway) exist, so it's not broken. Of course it's going to look mediocre when everyone in PUPL is doubling down to make sure their teams don't get blasted by it. You literally said it yourself, people who lose to it didn't prep for it, yet the "prep" for it is always the same. So how is Inteleon not warping the meta? I mean, Gastrodon has the top usage in week 1 right now, and I'm sure weeks 2 and 3 will have similar usage stats once they get posted. And again, maybe Gastrodon will still have top usage with Inteleon gone, but now people can be creative, not forced to use one of three Inteleon checks every single game, and can run different offensive water counterplay. Hence, I said this doesn't justify keeping Inteleon in the tier just because Gastrodon and friends exist.

Enough theory-monning from my end. To put it into perspective: with Inteleon gone, the only offensive waters that come to mind are Tauros and Tatsugiri, which don't always need one of Gastrodon, Milotic, or Wo-Chien to beat. Those mons have way more counterplay. Tauros falls short against basically any physical wall in the tier, and Tatsugiri, honestly, I think is oppressive, but it has the same issue with speed that Toxtricity has. Its strongest move lowers its own setup, it has to Rapid Spin to become a scary threat, while also being a huge Tera sponge. If you let Tatsugiri double dance, that's on you. You don't find this wiggle room with Inteleon. It's Gastrodon or nothing, honestly. Inteleon forces cookie-cutter counterplay and can capitalize on it with essentially unpunishable pivoting (besides Static, I guess. But are you really risking your Bellibolt like that?), which is something unique to Inteleon vs our other threats in PU, all while being the second fastest mon in the tier.

 

[ishtar]

Two more suspect test tournaments, two more chances for you to get reqs on Inteleon! What will happen? It's anyones game!

Saturday, 20 July 2024 8am -4 hosted by PTF
Saturday, 20 July 2024 5pm -4 hosted by gulch

 

[gulch]

congrats to leoperi99 for winning the fourth suspect tour!! (forgot to get seraphz v ampha and room timed out, oops!)

semifinals - leoperi99 vs bleahey
finals - ampha vs leoperi99

 

[ishtar]

Inteleon is now banned from SV PU! Feel free to discuss the results as well as how this ban changes the metagame.

 

[hex]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

 

[zoowi]

we have and now thanks to quickdrops for the month
since no drought makes pretty underwhelming I just want to talk about a bit

we've long been without a decent defensive grass/poison mon ( don't count) and so I've found immediately use in em

most comparable to but synthesis gives much easier longevity
having poison secondary means things that roll over or at the least force it to tera are easy prey for venu, this also means venu doesn't need to use poison/steel for its tera (as to what it actually wants? I'm unsure at this point, water?)
also yeah it can leech, tho it doesn't need/want to as bad as wo-chien does

two big draws over snail are the ability to make wince in discomfort and not immediately panic vs
it resists both aqua bulls stabs and has stab giga, don't really need to explain that more, even non-defensive sets can handle it to some extent, venu alone might make firebull more popular than aqua this month, we'll have to see how it turns out
as for skunk, another switch into him is always a welcome addition, there are fiction scenarios (*cough* taunt)where it can lose but it's definitely "good enough", earth power is a 2hko but even without that you can give it a slow death
252 Atk Skuntank Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur: 127-150 (34.8 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

other major mons venu checks but snail doesn't include along with most fightings
tho you can't really use it as a florg/scream tail check since they have psy noise/fire blast, sad (unless tera?)
sludge bomb can seem unnecessary but in a 1v1 vs other venu its the best option and weens you off needing toxic... in theory roar also works in this regard
sd? acid spray?
anyway gud mon I like em
also vileplume when?

edit: also it beats wochien too so theres that

 

[asa]

​

For those unaware, this month's quickdrops gave yet another Grass-type in Brute Bonnet! It looks like a handy addition to the tier that isn't as offensively overwhelming as Venusaur without sacrificing defensive utility. Protosynthesis obviously gives it a neat role on sun teams, but it definitely isn't limited to that archetype alone. Feel free to share your thoughts on Brutus (or about how we're probably going to lose Gligar in exchange for keeping Copperajah..).

 

[MC Squared]

​

For those unaware, this month's quickdrops gave yet another Grass-type in Brute Bonnet! It looks like a handy addition to the tier that isn't as offensively overwhelming as Venusaur without sacrificing defensive utility. Protosynthesis obviously gives it a neat role on sun teams, but it definitely isn't limited to that archetype alone. Feel free to share your thoughts on Brutus (or about how we're probably going to lose Gligar in exchange for keeping Copperajah..).

The first Paradox Pokémon to be PU. If only sleep wasn't banned sob

 

[Serviperhater]

The first Paradox Pokémon to be PU. If only sleep wasn't banned sob

scream tail moment

 

[MC Squared]

scream tail moment

Oh forgot about that one lol. A Pokémon with the best support movepool shouldn't be that low

 

[The_Bookworm]

Oh forgot about that one lol. A Pokémon with the best support movepool shouldn't be that low

If it makes you feel any better, the last two months has Scream Tail be projected to rise to NU.
Although with Gallade recently banned in NU, I am uncertain if that will happen now. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Aurist]

This didn't get posted on the forums yet, so:

Inteleon moved from PUBL to NU
Bronzong moved from PU to NU
Gligar moved from PU to NU
Heracross moved from PU to NU
Kilowattrel moved from PU to NU
Milotic moved from PU to NU
Scream Tail moved from PU to NU
Slowbro-Galar moved from PU to NU
Staraptor moved from PU to NU
Tauros-Paldea-Aqua moved from PU to NU
Toxicroak moved from ZU to NU

Indeedee moved from NU to PU

Massive changes for PU with several top tier and many high tier mons leaving at once. Things are looking to be fairly unstable for a bit, and Indeedee, being the only drop, looks to be an extremely strong mon in its own right and a hyper offense enabler.

Also noting the drops to ZU:

Brute Bonnet moved from PU to ZU
Delphox moved from PU to ZU
Froslass moved from PU to ZU
Hariyama moved from PU to ZU
Lycanroc moved from PU to ZU