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 np: SS UU Stage 8.3 - Rack City

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kumiko

formerly TDK
is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Four-Time Past WCoP Champion

:terrakion:

hello again all, we're back with another suspect test! Despite Latias' departure from the tier, the metagame is seemingly somewhat unbalanced at the moment, as seen by the UU playerbase survey results. The UU Council has decided that Terrakion is the next Pokemon for the chopping block.

Terrakion, much like Latias, returns to the top of the tier after its SM campaign. Despite its lack of Z Moves, Terrakion faces no struggle in overrunning the metagame with its immense power, ideal speed tier, and impeccable STAB coverage. Unlike SM, however, there are a multitude of checks and counters that are not available or not viable like they were before. Things such as Mega Altaria, Gligar, Latias, and Hippowdon are unavailable to UU, while things like Doublade and Starmie are nonexistent, further limiting a teams ability's to combat Terrakion easily. With its introduction into Sword and Shield, it also gained the ability to use Megahorn, which allows it to blow past things such as Slowking much easier than before.

Unlike Latias, Terrakion is a rather straightforward Pokemon; it only needs to click its two STAB attacks to be a top tier Pokemon. Currently, there are only three Pokemon ranked on the Viability Rankings that resist both of Terrakion's STABs; Nidoqueen, Doublade, and Palossand. Between its STABs and access to the only two coverage moves it will ever need, Megahorn and Earthquake, it is more than capable of taking down any Pokemon available in the tier. Only Palossand is capable of switching into a Choice Band Terrakion, but fails to knock it out, which can lead to dicey situations vs Swords Dance, while ignoring the fact it is a liability if there is not a Terrakion.

While its strength is unmatched, Terrakion will rarely dominate the game to the extent it is immediately done. Terrakion is very easily revenge killed; all three of January's most used Pokemon (Scizor, Zeraora, Krookodile) are frequently used to force Terrakion out given the free opportunity. Terrakion does not have the longevity or defensive typing to thrive throughout the game without easily being forced out after clicking one move. Terrakion also very frequently is forced into guessing games; while its two STABs together are nigh on impossible to wall, every team will have resists to both of its STABs, and it is more than realistic to have someone try to pivot in a Pokemon that can tank one of them and force it out. Despite its incredibly well rounded stats, Terrakion frequently struggles to switch into attacks, and can only find opportunities when given a free turn.

The UU Council held an informal vote on which of the three things to prioritize; a Victini suspect test, a Terrakion suspect test, and an Aegislash retest. While the community at large very slightly preferred a Victini suspect test, Terrakion was the preferred of the two within the Council. It is highly likely these are the next two things we do following the conclusion of this suspect test, but we did not want to merge them together and have elected to start with Terrakion.

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

GXEminimum games
8050
80.249
80.448
80.647
80.846
8145
81.244
81.443
81.642
81.841
8240
82.239
82.438
82.637
82.836
8335
83.234
83.433
83.632
83.831
8430

Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU8T (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU8T TDK to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Friday, March 5th at 8:59 PM GMT -5 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!


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This is a "get Doublade back to UU" suspect test.

On a serious note Terrakion's STAB and coverage moves destroys it's would be checks. Nidoqueen fears Earthquake and Tangrowth fears Megahorn. But I think that there is plenty of priority such as Azumarill and Crawdaunt's Aqua Jet, Scizor's Bullet Punch, and Conkeldurr's Mach Punch can easily take it out, due to Life Orb chip. So I would be a bit on the fence for this.
 
Ye olde gen 7 tech

Terrakion @ Babiri Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Stone Edge
- Stomping Tantrum / Earthquake
- Close Combat

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Babiri Berry Terrakion: 264-312 (81.7 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Terrakion Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 306-360 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
 
Which council member picked that accursed song for this suspect test and when can we fight

In all seriousness I'm really happy that this is the next suspect test, not sure if I'll be able to get reqs, but good luck to those who do!
you have to blame tdk on this one. note that there is still good people in council : lily tried to oppose to tdk but she made a deal with tdk so shes a traitor. although, adaam wanted this song :
1613777913825.png

which is something i supported but we live in a society. i am still trying to overthrow tdk and hogg to replace them with adaam / viv but i dont think i'll make it. sorry community.

EDIT : adaam actually propposed that first, i was of course down for that too :
1613778483319.png
 
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you have to blame tdk on this one. note that there is still good people in council : lily tried to oppose to tdk but she made a deal with tdk so shes a traitor. although, adaam wanted this song :
View attachment 317225
which is something i supported but we live in a society. i am still trying to overthrow tdk and hogg to replace them with adaam / viv but i dont think i'll make it. sorry community.
Alright TDK where is the nearest Applebee's let's fight there.

Seriously though the perfect song was right in front of your eyes and you all completely missed it:
get it? cause terrakion sounds like takyon? i know i'm not funny you don't have to rub it in
 
I replaced Latias with Mew in ShinyAzelf stall: https://pokepast.es/452091b076ff785f, shoutout to the guy who defeated me when I'm at 29-0 rip.

Anyway, at the moment I am leaning towards no ban. While it has a great speed tier, the tier is not short of Pokemon that outspeeds it either naturally or by holding a Choice Scarf, as well as priority users like Conkeldurr, Azumarill, Crawdaunt, and Scizor. Terrakion is also rather weak to Spikes and Webs, and coupled with Life Orb is prone to being worn down quickly. It is also not like as if it can mindlessly click buttons to win, especially if it is holding a Choice item.

There is also more than enough defensive counterplay, with common metagame staples like Kommo-O and Tangrowth/Amoongus being able to take a hit or two. Cosmic Power Mew is also able to function as a check once it manages to set up. Terrakion does not really warp the teambuilder as much compared to Blaziken, as the aforementioned defensive checks are already viable in their own right and do not exist solely to check one Pokemon. They can also do something useful in return like spreading statuses and Knock Off, and thus do not invite other threats like Scizor in for free.

With that being said, I guess the main concern is that besides being an efficient wallbreaker, Terrakion is able to run a plethora of sets, namely Lead, Scarf, Band, LO, and SD, and thus scouting for its set could potentially become dangerous and punishing. It also does not help that it gained Megahorn this gen to hit Tangrowth and Slowking hard. I guess it all comes down to whether one deems the process of scouting too unhealthy, but from my experience so far my answer is a no.
 
Terrakion is overwhelmingly broken - or at the very least extremely unhealthy - and here's why I think that's the case. I'm going to go over each form of counterplay and why they're all lacking.

A) Defensive counterplay
Terrakion has very, very little defensive counterplay. We're all perfectly aware of this, of course; it's been this way for over 10 years now, but it's been a while since it has been this pronounced. I've seen many questions like "well why wasn't it broken in SM?" or "why wasn't it broken in DLC1?" and these are valid surface level points, but digging a tiny bit deeper will reveal why. Here's a quick list:

In SM, we had more viable options that could stomach a +2 attack from Terrakion (outside of its Z-Move) such as Gligar, Hippowdon, Mega Altaria, Doublade, Slowbro and its Mega counterpart, Alomomola, and Starmie (which couldn't actually take a +2 attack but it could switch in to Stone Edge from full HP and force Terrakion out so it didn't matter if it SD'd). Out of this list, the only Pokemon legal in current SS UU are Doublade and Starmie, both of which suffer from massive issues (though I think Starmie is underrated) like being unable to make any progress against extremely common Regenerator cores. Many called for a suspect test during SM regardless.

In SS DLC1, Slowbro was omnipresent and so was its Galarian counterpart, both of which happen to be pretty decent checks. Doublade was also truly viable at this point, and the best Pokemon in the metagame resisted Fighting and could outspeed and KO Terrakion after some minor chip or a CC drop. This meant that Terrakion naturally found less opportunities to fire off its attacks, though it was still of course incredibly powerful - it just struggled more with 4MSS. It was also considered for a suspect test for a long time at this point too.

So that brings us to now, what do we have? Well, in a vacuum the only true defensive counterplay to the SD LO set is Doublade and Palossand. Doublade is nigh unviable and not even that reliable against the set in the first place due to its severe weakness to chip damage while Palossand has absolutely zero merit in this metagame outside of countering Terrakion - yes, it does beat Zeraora, but you would not put it on a team for the sole purpose of doing so when we have plenty of much better options. Obviously non-stall/hard balance teams don't resort to these Pokemon which explains their low usage, so what ends up happening is that teams stack the combination of either Tangrowth or Amoonguss + somewhat sturdy Rock resist (we don't have many outside of Kommo-o so a lot of teams just resort to harding their own Terrakion/Keldeo into a Stone Edge and winning a speed tie, unironically) and pivoting around it until it either runs out of PP or misses an attack (if it's CB) or dies to its own Life Orb recoil. This often doesn't even work, by the way - Tangrowth + Kommo-o SEEMS good against it until you realise both drop to 2 CCs after rocks, and if you -don't- have both but have bulky resists such as Nidoqueen or Azumarill... well, this happens:

UOn5qLg.png


Which leads me to disagree with the argument that it can't just click its STAB and win because it often can lol. It struggles to break Regen cores with its Fighting stab but when backed by Future Sight or even minor support in the form of Knock Off + hazards it becomes extremely easy to bust through the likes of Amoonguss, Bold Slowking, and even Rocky Helmet Tangrowth without using your brain at all.

Don't believe me? Here's a replay of me clicking Close Combat 8 times against my opponent's Intimidate Salamence + Tentacruel and still getting all 5 KOs.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1286008522

Another one where I dodge a Will-O-Wisp after making a terrible play and still kill all 6 Pokemon with just Terrakion despite the physdef Salamence + Amoonguss + Keldeo core.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1286005645-m5iywye0jeu8mm5g0du2fl1b2ckt3eypw

It's very, very easy for Terrakion to bust through its own counterplay even without much support and just 6-0 teams on its own.

B) Offensive counterplay

This is where things get a bit less grim. As a post above alluded to, there are plenty of excellent priority users that can keep Terrakion in check - Azumarill, Scizor, Conkeldurr etc. are all solid Pokemon that can threaten Terrakion out without much issue (though they can't switch into it ever, the amount of Conks and Azus on the ladder that I OHKOd last night is... depressing, and I have plenty of proof of it if people want to see it). There are also a few, not many, viable faster Pokemon that can OHKO it, most notably Zeraora, Choice Scarf Krookodile, and Lycanroc-Dusk but also less common things like Choice Scarf Keldeo and Starmie. It's worth noting that this isn't all accurate by the way - for example...

UAjczWf.png


A lot of these Pokemon are also quite abusable. Conkeldurr is very easy to wear down between Pokemon like Rocky Helmet Skarmory, Rocky Helmet Amoonguss, its own Burn damage and just its general vulnerability to hazard damage and chip bc it's slow. Azumarill and Scizor don't suffer from this issue quite as much, Scizor in particular thanks to Roost, but they're not extended counterplay because they become a lot harder to utilise if their teammates need to be sacked in order to get them in. Scarf users like Zarude also need to be wary about playing aggressively around Terrakion - it's easy to say "yup Power Whip revenges so it's checked" but if they have something like Amoonguss or Tangrowth in the back you're constantly on the back foot because you force a 50/50 every turn - if you U-turn and they stay in you probably lose a Pokemon, if you Power Whip and they switch out you lose a lot of momentum.

The pool of Pokemon that can take a hit and KO back is pretty small because Terrakion is just so strong, but there is stuff like Nidoqueen and bulky Primarina that can do that.

---

Terrakion is extremely easy to support via Teleport, Volt Switch, and U-turn, making it extremely easy to get it in on Pokemon like Rotom-Heat, Kyurem, and Salamence that it forces out. It translates those free turns into KOs far too frequently and consistently to have a place in the tier. There's something to be said about the "stall agenda" or whatever, but we have plenty of Pokemon that can still easily muscle through bulky teams - Calm Mind Keldeo, Mamoswine, Scizor, Kommo-o, Nidoqueen, Primarina, Bisharp, Conkeldurr, Galarian Slowbro, Kyurem, Diggersby, Alakazam... you won't struggle to find replacement breakers, and Terrakion offers very little to the tier other than a constricting building presence that we'd be better off without.
 
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92e40bf7f56af2be42179ad0b4fd9938.png

Team: https://pokepast.es/9d62998483175955 Balance squad featuring SubRoostKyurem + Toxic Spikes Nidoqueen. Slowking can be replaced with Primarina if you want a Dragon immunity in exchange for a worse Victini mu. Slowking provides Teleport + Future Sight support for Terrakion however.

Rn I'm leaning towards no ban, but I haven't fully made my decision on the matter. It's mainly that the team I used to get reqs purposely has a good Terrakion matchup, so I never really struggled with it while getting reqs. I still want to spectate other matches and take into account the arguments that have been given in the thread before making my final decision.
 
Played the full 50 games for reqs. I saw a grand total of 3 Terrakions on the ladder from those 50 games. Here is what each of them did:

1. Set up rocks then died to Scizor later in the game
2. Nothing (just died to Azu)
3. Used Rock Polish behind Indeedee Psychic Terrain, but then died to Zeraora Play Rough behind Reflect after its Close Combat did not KO.

So if I'm basing it off that it would obviously seem like Terrakion is fine.

However, I would caution people to take other factors into consideration, such as:

  1. Arguments you read in the NP Threads
  2. Replays of Tournament games with Terrakion
  3. Victim of the Week submissions when it was Terrakion's week
  4. And, most importantly, build your own Terrakion team and try using it! (you can do this separate from getting reqs).

I did all of this and still don't think Terrakion is broken or banworthy, but I voted do not ban on Blaziken so who cares what I think. If you do care, however, then I will just list a few things:

It is true that there is virtually no defensive counterplay outside of Palossand and Pinpoint Prediction (by that I mean switching to the right mon on the right move like Tangrowth on non-Megahorn or Kommo-o on Stone Edge).
However, there is PLENTY of offensive counterplay to Terrakion, moreso than there was to Blaziken or Latias (please note I am listing OFFENSIVE counterplay, I understand none of these things can safely switch in):
  • :Zeraora: Zeraora, faster, has CC and Play Rough, CC OHKOs, PR KOs after chip.
  • :Azumarill: Azu, banded jet KO's after chip damage, Rak cannot KO back unless gets the highest possible roll on a Choice Band Stone Edge (but realistically it's not staying in and is getting forced out)
  • :Jirachi: Scarf Jirachi, Iron Head, 60% flinch, then KO. Ok this one is not the best and I hate using hax Jirachi (in fact if you suspected this it would probably be the only UU mon I would vote to ban), but I'm just going down the VR's in order so we'll keep this on here.
  • :Kommo-o: Kommo can eat a hit, any hit, and KO with CC if it's offensive or Body Press if it's defensive.
  • :Scizor: Scizor is the easiest thing to use to KO it. Banded BP is a guaranteed OHKO. Life Orb BP is about a 63% chance to OHKO (guaranteed OHKO after chip)
  • :Tapu Bulu: Rak cannot KO Tapu Bulu with any attacks and Bulu will OHKO it with Horn Leech.
  • :Keldeo: Keldeo w/ Scarf will KO it, and if it's not scarf then it's a Speed tie.
  • :Krookodile: Scarf Krook is an easy revenge killer to Rak
  • :Alakazam: Zam is faster and will OHKO
  • :Conkeldurr: Conk will need a bit of chip to KO Terrakion with Mach Punch, but will get the job done.
  • :Lycanroc-Dusk: Rak's main competion, Lycandog, is faster and will KO with CC.
  • :Thundurus: Thundurus (the I form) will OHKO with Focus Blast, or KO with Psychic after some chip.

Those are all very viable UU mons (listed A- or greater on the VR's). Every non-stally UU team has at least one of those, maybe even 2 or 3 or more. There's plenty more if you dig deeper but no need to do that. You may be wondering "Well ok, but how do you get these in safely!!!!" and the answer to that would be that you get them in safely just the same as the Rak user gets Rak in safely. It's the same concept really - so if you are saying it's easy to get Rak in safely, then you can also get these in safely through the same means. A mean volturn team gives you enough momentum to get the right matchups you need.

So, even though the defensive counterplay is severely lacking here, I think there's enough offensive counter play to justify not banning it.

In conclusion: if you us HO or Palossand stall you have very little issue really with Terrakion. If you use Balance or BO, then you need to carry some of these checks (not that hard) and just power through it. If you are using a fatter team, then, yes, you sort of have to use something like Palossand or a combination of Tangrowth/Doublade/Slowking/Kommo-o to make sure you are using the correct defensive check on the right move.

Save the mons, stop the bans, or else my meme comes true (says Rak March ban, Tini April ban, then the rest.....)
 
I am back here to revise my opinion of Terrakion. I have to admit, my initial indifference towards Terrakion, coupled with how the ladder in general do not seem to know how to best abuse Terrakion, led me to believe that Terrakion is manageable. It also does not help that I harbour an anti-ban mindset in general. Lilburr has argued her case well and the replays she has provided greatly convinced me, and so I decided to ladder further to have a more informed opinion. The paragraph describing how there is more than enough defensive counterplay is actually rather amusing now that I read it again, I can only imagine the sheer number of people who may be triggered by my post LOL.

I shall not repeat everything here, but would like to highlight that Terrakion is best paired with pivots like Slowking and Rotom. And yes, you can actually mindlessly click buttons to win, that is how strong Terrakion is. Being a lazy builder, I decided to replicate Lily's team to the best of my ability and ladder some more. Here is the importable: https://pokepast.es/7a1f6f4b2ef563d2, and here are some notable replays.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1286861888-t77h3vpv4vxj958na5o5xd7mu71h4mvpw
  • Here Terrakion literally just 6-0 stall. The presence of Sableye means you cannot spam CC that easily, but other than that, no one enjoys switching in to a Banded Stone Edge. I would also like to explain my earlier argument about scouting. Playing stall, unless you have a Palossand, you need to decide if you want to bring in, say Tangrowth or Quagsire. This is where the 50/50 comes in: if you choose Tangrowth and the opponent reveals SD, you lose to a +2 Megahorn. If you choose Quagsire and the opponent reveals Band, you lose to CC. Luckily for me, the opponent, UU8T im bad, missed. Anyways thank you, whoever you are, for engaging with me in a brief conversation about the suspect!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1286800323-d8polzgj6tuvdo8y5yqe8h3fyb4h4fvpw
  • This one shows how excellent Kommo-o is in the name of defensive counterplay lol.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1286810166-xih79x0o3u4okgxew99bx02v5qa6vrppw
  • Vs high ladder
Lily finds it depressing to secure so many KOs with Banded CC, I on the other hand find it fun. Winning games has never been so easy it's almost borderline stupid, and as much as I like abusing Terrakion, I will be voting ban for the betterment of the tier.
 
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Terrakion has very few switch-ins, but conversely, it switches in very infrequently. Rock/Fighting defensively is very poor in this meta. The only useful resistances are Fire and Dark, so unless it's being hard switched on Knock Off or something like Victini's Fire STAB, it is coming in on double switches, pivots, or revenge killing. This puts a lot of pressure to get a kill when it comes in, otherwise Terrakion risks not doing anything for a while. I will attempt to show replays where this is the case from UU snake.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-536825 - a 34 turn game where the Terrakion user is facing an Umbreon, the freest of mons to abuse. Terrakion clicks 1 attack all game, killing the sacked Umbreon turn 32. There is no castle on Ajna's side to keep it at bay, but it simply doesn't come in easily and therefore does no damage.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1259792897 - a 76 turn game where Terrakion only clicks 2 attacks. Again, no castle. Admittedly, the Terrak user is Noah thisbemyalt who is absolute ass at the game, but the point stands. Bouff has no real counter, but all his mons pressure it and prevent it from coming in except to pick off a low hp mon late in the game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-536058 - 2 Terrakions in this game and it takes 31 turns for any of them to get a kill. In total, they get 1 kill amongst them.

They are private, but rob and Sensei Axew played 2 games in UU Masters with Terrakion. Game 1 there were 2 Terrakions, and they got 1 kill total over 73 turns. No castles. There are also many games where it nets multiple kills, but the point is you don't need a specific slot to hard counter Terrak to prevent it from 6-0ing your team. Zera, Azu, Prim, Scizor, Scarf Krook, Bulu, Amoong/Tang, Kommo, Steela, Nidoqueen, Slowking, Keldeo, Alakazam, Conk, Lycanroc, Skarm, Glowbro, and Thunurus-I are all mons A- through S that check or 1v1 it and can be used to keep it at bay without having explicit counters. I will be voting no ban on Terrak.

vivalospride went 28-2 in his reqs for Latias
 
In SM, we had more viable options that could stomach a +2 attack from Terrakion (outside of its Z-Move) such as Gligar, Hippowdon, Mega Altaria, Doublade, Slowbro and its Mega counterpart, Alomomola, and Starmie (which couldn't actually take a +2 attack but it could switch in to Stone Edge from full HP and force Terrakion out so it didn't matter if it SD'd). Out of this list, the only Pokemon legal in current SS UU are Doublade and Starmie, both of which suffer from massive issues (though I think Starmie is underrated) like being unable to make any progress against extremely common Regenerator cores. Many called for a suspect test during SM regardless.

Not trying to take away from Lily's bigger point here just don't super wanna see comparing SS and SM rak in general, even if it's easy to understand why one would, I don't think it holds much of any weight especially from the perspective of defensive counterplay. It's funny because the time in SM where we really saw people gunning for rak to be suspected was the string of time after Adaam beat pokemonisfun with his CB Rak + Fsight Bro team, the CB rak hype was very real for a while and it led to a lot of talks about rak in the metagame even after we collectively moved on from CB, CB Rak's existence alone made Gligar super viable and then we realized z moves existed gligar was no longer good. Over time I think the metagame and the playerbase naturally figured out rak at least a little bit because I think the only one who thinks rak is the issue with SM UU in 2021 is Shiba and he uses Blissey on every team so who can blame him...

I think the main thing that made rak ultimately not quite suspect worthy in SM UU was the fact that the tier's best two mons force out and soft check rak, as well as the fact that I think the speed creep was just generally a lot worse for rak last gen then it is now, more viable scarfers, more speedy guys, megas, etc.

Adaam words it better than I ever could with "not much switches into it but it rarely switches in". This is generally how I've always seen rak as a mon and these clowns spamming palossand n shit I laugh and point at to make them feel bad bc of this. I'm on the fence about rak but leaning slightly towards no ban atm.

Also I got reqs, here is team
 
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Hi. Some of these posts are kind of scaring me here since in my head I didn't imagine such immediate (and from what I gather, majority, from this thread) support for Terrakion staying around. As you mighta guessed from that first bit I'm pretty against keeping it unbanned, and I'd like to hopefully turn some opinions by expressing my own here. You may or may not know that I am a Crusty Boomer who is constantly tired and depressed meaning I haven't got my own reqs within .0002 seconds of the suspect going live but I'll get to it I swear.

First off as a side note here, facing [insert x mon on the chopping block] some number of times under 10 is an utterly inconsequential argument towards the effect it has on the tier. Ladder has been notorious for being awful for over half a decade now, and in your relatively small sample size of 30-40 games your opponents arent exactly gonna be the pinnacle of competition. The majority of random ladder players are gonna seldom use Terrak and then choke or misplay with it when they do. And when people at the top of the ladder do successfully wield it, they account for only a small percentage of the total usage, weighted as those stats may be. Stop typing this in your posts, please.

First off, I wanna clear up what I think to be a misconception people seem to still be advocating for. Know Accel will agree with me somewhere out there, though I don't wanna tag him because that would make him spend slightly more time on this pocket monsters forum and he has a History of not enjoying that recently so I hear. Fact of the matter is, there is only 1 Terrak set you'll ever really need:

Terrakion @ Life Orb
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Earthquake

Bothering with rocks or variants / anything that involves Terrakion not clicking damaging attacks (other than Protect which has a lot of merit in scouting Choice Scarf mons that try to aggressively U-turn / Volt Switch / Knock in Krookodile's case) is a disservice to its immense breaking capabilities. SD is pretty cool when you're in control of the game to force OHKOs is cool sometimes but the immediate button you can click to nuke Nidoqueen and the odd Glowbro usually does the trick without needed to get a risky SD off. To add on to what Lily and Jirachirite said above, Terrak really doesn't have any reliable defensive counterplay. This to me is an inherent issue when talking how healthy a mon is for a tier. I'm of the opinion that a certain threat can be hard to switch into a bit but have downsides in the form of both viable, common counterplay on BOTH ends of the spectrum. What we have now is a decent slew of abusable offensive counterplay and not much else. Sure, the proactive player using standard bulky offense can play better and maneuver around it with stuff like Azu and Scizor priority, Alakazam etc. to minimize their losses and have it work out. Sure these mons work in a vacuum but what happens when your CB azu locks into Aqua Jet and is chipped down by Tangrowth and Amoonguss switching in? The Grass blobs are in a position to spread around Knock chip and annoying status, or the Terrak player is also in a position for an easy double switch. But what if you wanna use a different team style? Palossand is the only 100% switch to Terrakion, and outside of its niche in countering it tends to be anywhere from pretty lackluster to even outright horrendous in the larger picture of the current meta. Even our bulkiest options that don't crawl your team's momentum to a standstill can be absolutely demolished with a single prediction:
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 156-185 (38.6 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 208-247 (51.4 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking: 281-333 (71.3 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Diancie: 153-182 (50.3 - 59.8%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Skarmory: 153-183 (45.8 - 54.7%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Terrakion Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Nidoqueen: 221-263 (57.5 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
A short wall of calcs yes but I believe it demonstrates enough for my point to be valid. Even our most physically bulky options are but a minor hindrance to it in the hands of someone able to make the proper aggressive moves with it. Sure, it'd defensive capabilities leave more than a lot to be desired here and the average joe you encounter on your ladder excursions will more often than not leave you unimpressed with it. However, it's really hard for me to go along with the argument that it's only scary on paper. Even offensive teams that try to choke out its opportunities as much as possible do have typical members for it to abuse. So much of this game is subjective that you can't just trust the that the Salamence or Victini you likely have on your team will just Keep It Off The Field for the whole game. A single switch to Mence on a Scizor U-turn can immediately force you into a tough prediction where you could lose a mon immediately. Yes, I am admitting that you can play better most of the time and beat a Terrakion. But to me it's a case unfortunately similar to Latias in all the polar opposite ways; with Lati's insanely useful defensive typing and excellent combination of a strong speed tier, solid coverage to complement its brutally high-powered STAB moves, reliable recovery, and acceptable bulk, there was minimal options to beat it with offense and you had to resort nearly exclusively to defense like Chansey or Wish + Protect Jirachi who can only answer it with sheer bulk, not relevant resistances; that or use it as Screen fodder for Grimmsnarl Hyper Offense, which has the unique typing immune to Lati's STABs while setting up for its teammates to set up brainlessly in the coming turns. Conversely with Terrakion we're stuck with a mon that holds a similar brutal offensive prowess turned up to 11 with a similarly good speed tier. Terrak undoubtedly feels more manageable since unlike the previous ban hammer target in question most of the best ways are dealing with it in a proactive manner rather than passive which will naturally be more in control of the player facing down. You can place Scizor, Azumarill, Thundurus and friends on teams and feel capable of putting the pace of games in your control more often than you could with Chansey and the like. Though were they both coincide in my eyes is that where Latias really ONLY had defensive responses, Terrak ONLY has offensive responses short of Palossand. When the time comes to respond to the Terrak in front of your Victini, Mamoswine, or Mence, chances are you might be screwed for the next exchange. I have big problems with stuff like (for example, no offense to him personally) the list of mons that Mantis posted to deal with Terrak as its exclusively a gathering of mons that can respond to it offensively. While there's nothing wrong with that immediately outside of listing garbage ass Tapu Bulu that can't switch into Edge at all and literally counteracts Terrak's LO chip , there's also the fact that this is also basically implying that slower paced balance and fat teams don't have responses to this mon. I'm not the only one that finds that really troubling, right? Ideally we want all playstyles to be equally viable, and I feel like with Terrakion around that just simply is not the case. Balance and fat obviously do have methods of beating it but defensive playstyles should have safe options in an ideal tier and there just aren't any good ones. Banning it seems like the right direction to go to make building and using a variety of playstyles less strenuous. Again crusty lazy boomer with no reqs yet but it'll be getting a ban vote from me.

Since I've gotten most of what I want to across now I wanted to add in a bit of a footnote on how insane the support for Terrak is within our tier as well. I think what I am about to ramble on about is mostly a problem with the current meta in general / gen 8 and Terrakion is but one of many exacerbators of the said issue. Since this thread is about the suspect test I'll keep it to Terrak itself, though. Slowking of course, is the first issue. It's extremely useful defensive typing paired with Regenerator and Teleport are, let's be real here, completely braindead. The poor defensive typing argument does not hold up as well when Terrak pairs itself up with a mon that can generate zero risk momentum vs many common mons, namely Nidoqueen and Salamence if you use its+SDef spread, though also including Jirachi, Keldeo, Kommo-o, non Specs Primarina (also a travesty and an offense to its destructive power). Future Sight is icing on the cake if anything as it pairs pretty nicely with Terrak's fighting STAB to force devastating double hit turns that can force kills sometimes. Slowking is by far the worst offender due to its complete lack of risk but stuff like Zeraora (loooooool), Scizor, and Victini being able to abuse aggressive pivoting with no downside thanks to Boots. I would find Terrak itself a lot more palatable if we could limit the effectiveness and opportunities these mons have to execute these kinda gameplans, but I don't see a ban on the Timbs in the Smogon forecast anytime soon. Chansey is of course something I have to give more of an mention too since I advocate for regular Teleport Chansey usage on all team styles of course #StallAgenda. While it takes hazards and therefore might seem unviable, it Teleports all the same and is the best catch all to any scary special attacker, and stands resilient in the face of anything short of the our most ferocious physical wallbreakers. It's also increasingly pairable with Magnezone to delete the threat of Skarm Spikes and SD Scizors (Specs Zone melts Scizor that aren't+Sdef) while also providing a nice utility assist for Terrak so it doesn't have to run Rocks or the super underrated Healing Wish + LO Breaker strat. Terrak of course also pairs flawlessly with Skarmory as Lily demonstrated in her ladder run replays, an effective Spikes setter that abuses the rock goat thing's best defensive pivots and inching a ton of mons that can't afford boots into KO range, including but certainly not limited to the Regen grass duo, Kommo-o, Seismitoad, and Slowbro-G. Terrakion's also great at working together with Keldeo or Kommo-o for a dual pronged fighting assault, as it can bully pretty much every fighting resist on its own for its buddies to abuse later, while Keldeo or the clanger can clean up the aftermath and/or cover the more nuanced defensive capabilities of a bulky-ish Fighting-type like dealing with Scizor and Bisharp. In summary, Terrak in my opinion has not only the brutal balance-crushing strength (that is a lot less palatable on a mon with one of the best speed tiers in UU I might add) but also has powerful and easily accessible support to mitigate its shortcomings.

But yea that's my spin on things; make all playstyles Viable, drop Zera from S rank, and stop using Cosmic Power Mew.
 
I have big problems with stuff like (for example, no offense to him personally) the list of mons that Mantis posted to deal with Terrak as its exclusively a gathering of mons that can respond to it offensively. While there's nothing wrong with that immediately outside of listing garbage ass Tapu Bulu that can't switch into Edge at all and literally counteracts Terrak's LO chip , there's also the fact that this is also basically implying that slower paced balance and fat teams don't have responses to this mon.

Just want to clarify this because I think you understood it wrong. I admitted that the list I made was only offensive counterplay. In other words, none of those things can switch in, and they can only act as offensive checks. So basically I know Bulu aint going to switch in on Terrakion. My point was just that there was plenty of offensive counterplay, which you seem to agree with, so I think we are on the same page here. I just don't want people thinking that I listed a bunch of great blanket checks, because none of those are defensive checks at all in the slightest. There is no blanket defensive check other than Palossand.

I also admitted that, in fact, slower paced balance and fat teams do not have responses to Terrakion unless they run Palossand or some combination of Tangrowth/Doublade/Slowking/Kommo-o and switch in to the right moves.

But like I said at the start of my post, it's no surprise that I'm voting No Ban since I generally do not like to ban things unless they are immensely over the top, but I listed my reasonings anyhow so people can understand why I would vote that way on Terrakion specifically. I'm not terribly passionate about not banning Terrakion (meta for me would not change much anyhow if it's gone since I rarely use fatter balance teams which are the main teams that have issues with it), so whatever happens is fine with me. Just want everyone to read all sides of the arguments and make their own decisions on it.
 
Like TSR I've been kind of scared by the general community reception I've seen on this thread, ps room, and even on the Discord a little. it concerns me that people are making decisions on Terrakion's competititveness within the tier based on having barely seen it while getting reqs and making cases based on what it's failed to do in the 1-2 matches against lower ladder players that they've seen it used in where it has been severely underutilised or missplayed most likely.

While I'm usually too lazy to do reqs, I will most likely be doing them this time to try and ensure this mon gets banned lol.

Terrakion puts such a chokehold on building in this tier, especially for fat builds where not using Palossand is practically kicking yourself in the backfoot. While Palossand is certainly not only useful for Terrakion, considering its a solid Zeraora answer, there would simply be no reason to use it 99% of the time without Terrakion in the tier. Fat builds are in general in a rather average position right now, and being forced to use an otherwise underwhelming Pokemon in Palossand on basically all builds is a huge hinderance: ideally we should really want most playstyles to be viable to a certain extent and removing this completely massive need to pair Pokemon like Chansey/Umbreon/Salamence with Palossand will really open up these playstyles a lot more.

While as a tier, UU doesn't lack offensive counterplay such as Zeraora, Scizor, Azumarill, and Choice Scarfers like Zarude and Krookodile, the sad factor of the matter is that Terrakion gets far too many opportunities to wallbreak through the breadth of methods of bringing it in we have in the tier right now, be it Teleport Support from Slowking, which is already amazing in the tier rn and makes it even more crazy with Future Sight, U-turn support bringing it in on stuff like Salamence and Rotom-H from Zarude / Scizor etc, while having extremely limited defensive counterplay outside of like Palo/Doub lol, more often than not forcing sacks to actually get these revenge killers in, which tend to just give up momentum versus typical Terrakion teammates like Amoonguss anyway, As these counterplay usually cannot afford to not click U-turn or coverage incase they are predicted.

To go back to what I said about it's chokehold on building, a Terrakion Ban would open up Pokemon like Chandelure / Chansey / Rest Talk Goltres / Rotom-H etc a lot in terms of building freedom, all sorts of Pokemon which tend to be very Terrakion weak and offer great benefits to balance teams but can often force very specific build structures due to their absurd weakness to it, eg. Chandy always getting revenged by Terrakion everytime it gets a kill and really needing stuff that can somewhat mitigate this ie. Skarm + Tang, which is still incredibly unreliable and easily 2hkoed thorugh, or as we all know in goltres's case is just absolutely nightmarish to build with in general rn. Terrakion also doens't really offer enough to the tier to make it worth keeping that other wallbreakers don't and we have a wide range of options that can still be chosen from in building, its defensive utility isn't anything special and while it might make Victini even more dangerous, this shouldn't be our concern when choosing whether to keep Terrakion or not.
 
Since council is very split on their opinions on Terrak, I figured I should make a post on my thoughts.

Teambuilding is one of the biggest aspects for me when looking at tier stability. I’ll use SM UU simply for this example. Building in that tier can be fun (at times), but it also seems that there’s only a few teams that can actually have an all around decent matchup vs HO, Stall, and your other general BO teams all together. Now I know that asking for a tier where you can have the “perfect” team is impossible to ask for, but right now, building in this tier gives me a LOT of SM UU vibes. I don’t mean that stall autowins 95% of matchups or SD Scizor can find a way to win every game possible; I mean that I do not enjoy building whatsoever right now, and I’m not sure how others do either (unless you dedicate yourself to exclusively building cheese or stall).

Now when I look at why this might be, 3 things stand out: Terrakion, Victini, and Zeraora, in no particular order. I don’t want to focus on the last 2 because this is a Terrakion suspect. When I’m building, I usually feel very Terrakion weak if I don’t have one of the 3 following mons: Amoonguss, Palossand, or Scizor. There’s other offensive checks too, such as Azu, Krook, Zera, etc, but I’m not going to build a team without a Terrak switch-in and feel comfortable lol. Saying that on paper Terrak has no switch-ins is easy, bc it 2hkoes virtually the entire tier alone, which is why I like when people look through replays (such as Adam above).

However, I have my problems with replays too. I feel like they can be handpicked and criticized pretty easily. For example:
- notily vs Ajna: notily Heavy Slams on Turn 6 where a Terrak double would’ve put him in a very good spot with SR up.
- Clark vs notily: Not only did Stone Edge miss the Jirachi (which didn’t change the outcome), but the game would’ve also been different if notily realized that Clark wanted to preserve Amoonguss for MMQ and CC’d it after it got Stone Edged.

Now I’m just being picky and this is just “what ifs”. I half joked about this in the UU discord but if you look at my Masters g3 yesterday (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1287032317), replays can be picked pretty easily to show how good/bad it can be. My opponent misplays badly by predicting a Future Sight, but when I clicked Scald on Palossand and it was in EQ range, Terrak won the entire game by itself. This isn’t the best replay but I solely wanted to use it to point out how it can turn games in its favor if played properly (or if you catch a misplay).

Some people above me, like Adam & viv, say that although Terrak has no switch-ins, it also struggles to switch in. I definitely don’t disagree with this, but I also think people might not be supporting it properly or just playing aggressively enough, as shown in the earlier replays.

21ADFCE3-F371-4298-A48A-4F1F6AFC07FB.jpeg


This is one of the most recent teams I have with it where I was just building around Teleport / VoltTurn —> Terrakion, and I’ve had a lot of success with it. Finding opportunities to bring it in safely hasn’t been hard with Slowking’s TP + 3 potential U-turn users on the team. My experience is obviously drastically different from someone like BFM who only ran into Terrak 3 times and it did nothing, since in my 14 games on ladder already (low ladder to be transparent), Terrak has picked up 1-2 kills a game.

At the end of the day for me it boils down to one question: Does Terrakion’s presence ADD more to the tier compared to its potential removal? I see it adding a lot of wallbreaking power while limiting the number of Pokemon BO can use to effectively handle it. I don’t feel safe using BO rn without Amoonguss / Palossand + scarfer / prio mon / faster revenge killer. This might not be entirely due to Terrak (although I’d argue Guss overtaking Tangrowth is due to the Terrakion effect lol) but I firmly believe that the tier has enough wallbreakers to not miss Terrakion’s presence and its removal would allow BO to breathe just a bit more. I really don’t enjoy seeing Amoonguss or Scizor or Zeraora on every BO in existence and I don’t see how banning Terrak would harm the current tier at all.

e: stop using SR on it too btw, it’s outright trash when it kills everything that switches in. also, listing counters that see usage 1/20 games (Conk, etc) is kinda dumb when these mons are very hard to build with
 
Terrakion it's a pokemon that I really like to use, it really offers you a lot offensively for very little forcing to many 50/50 because it can either threaten you with a super effective move, or it can also throw a sd and threaten one of your counterplays defensively.
That said, I think it contributes a lot to the tier in the game aspect, because playing passively is very punishing for it + the other 5 mons accompanying him.
But I think the problem becomes more evident at the time of building a new team as many said already, terrakion greatly limits what you can and cannot use because you are limiting to, or being well prepared to play against one, or are you sure your opponent will not use a terrakion. If you are forced to run doublade or palossand in BO builds only for terrak and not do anything else against the rest of mons, just to have one of those two its bad and unhealthy, and even so sometimes terrakion and company find a way to break.


Another point to note is that with the latias ban, terrakion is easier to say to use because we lose an offensive check that could be put comfortably in several teams, that and the lose of hippo and aegislash make terrakion better and hard to deal and i think we will lose zeraora-skarm (one offensive check, and one "defensive" check of terrak) in the not too distant future now that cinderace and magaerna were banned in ou.

This is why I think the tier will not be able to hold Terrakion much longer and we should ban it now.

Dont use SR Terrakion if you really want to break with him as ip said, the coverage move its better than putting simple rocks in a tier where almost everyone wears boots, plus the tier have a lot of options as sr setters.

Fuck TDK btw
 
Which leads me to disagree with the argument that it can't just click its STAB and win because it often can lol. It struggles to break Regen cores with its Fighting stab but when backed by Future Sight or even minor support in the form of Knock Off + hazards it becomes extremely easy to bust through the likes of Amoonguss, Bold Slowking, and even Rocky Helmet Tangrowth without using your brain at all.

Don't believe me? Here's a replay of me clicking Close Combat 8 times against my opponent's Intimidate Salamence + Tentacruel and still getting all 5 KOs.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1286008522

Another one where I dodge a Will-O-Wisp after making a terrible play and still kill all 6 Pokemon with just Terrakion despite the physdef Salamence + Amoonguss + Keldeo core.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1286005645-m5iywye0jeu8mm5g0du2fl1b2ckt3eypw

It's very, very easy for Terrakion to bust through its own counterplay even without much support and just 6-0 teams on its own.

I don't really agree that the first replay shows at all Terrak busting through it's own counterplay, none of the "good" options mentioned are present and your opponent's fastest pokemon is their own Terrakion... The set TSR posted above would've just picked whenever it was out vs not Terrakion without the need for Future Sight, and Lycanroc could've been even better as it avoids the tie with the opposing Terrak although its more vulnerable to Bisharp Sucker. Funny replay for sure with how you could just click CC but in terms of analysis when I see this I just see team that hasn't considered Terrakion in the builder at all losing to an extremely well supported Terrakion.

Second replay is a lot more interesting because clearly there's been an effort made to account for Terrakion here, with an Amoonguss, Scizor and a Lycan. Although your opp definitely misplayed a bunch, these kinds of games are the ones that concern me wrt Terrak, because it shows how easy it can be to get it in multiple times a game at no risk with the mass amounts of pivot moves there are available in the tier currently. I don't particularly mind something like Terrak usually because I like the fact that it rewards aggressive play like Gondra said above and if you play passively with it then you're likely suffering in the game you're playing unless your other goons have a great matchup and can win themselves. This much support being available to it is pretty concerning though, because it takes Terrak's biggest flaw of never coming in anywhere away. Still on the fence with this one atm.
 
Got my reqs and read most posts on this thread and I'd like to focus on a certain point which is the fact that Terrakion is really disgusting to face when you're playing bulky and Stall teams. I've seen people talking about Palossand in order to check it and I'll be honest, Palossand is in my opinion a bad niche Pokemon to check Terrakion. It trully sucks all kind of momentum and need to stay healthy in order to be able to check Terrakion in the long run. This is an issue for me because I trully think that Terrakion puts way too much pressure on bulky archetypes since we're lacking defensive answers and that's not new for sure, DexCut has really fucked up a lot of things. I've been running a pretty solid Stall team to get my reqs and I'm glad I didn't faced a lot of Terrakion because LO AoA variants are almost unwallable when you're playing Stall. You need to play around and win way too much 50/50 in order to deal with it. Stall staples such as Salamence or Amoonguss can be 2HKO with ease and you can't even play around with Intimidate + something like Quagsire since this dummy is ignoring all stats changes from the opponent (which means it doesn't count Intimidate). Quagsire is easily 2HKO by CC without even Stealth Rock damages, same issue with basically all defensive Pokemon bar niche things such as Palossand. While I agree that Terrakion is definitively more than manageable when you're playing offensive teams, it really becomes a pain in the ass when you're trying to run Balanced team or even more stallish build since it can come with ease on the field with Teleport users notably Slowking which is a crazy teammate due to Teleport + Future Sight which invalidates all switch-in to Terrakion and forces some awful 50/50. I know a lot of people don't like Stall and will say that you can pressure Terrakion with offensive threats but I don't think it's a good thing to have a Pokemon which puts that much pressure on an archetype. It's been a long time since I've been a Terrakion-hater and my opinion on this Pokemon didn't changed yet so I'll be voting ban for sure.

PS : Keep Zeraora S, fuck TSR the Zera hater even tho he's right on Mew. Fuck Mew too (and not Mewtwo)
 
It seems to me that UU has a Regen problem as much as it has a Rak problem. Looking through this thread, every single replay on the pro-ban side has shown Terrakion + Slowking, and every replay on the anti-ban side has posted Terrakion with no Slowking.

A breaker with no guaranteed switchins but which struggles to switch in itself is a double-edged sword, usually. Like Adaam points out, when Terrakion doesn't get kills, it just sort of sits there. As TSR notes, though, when you have a mon that can create opportunities for it to come in risk-free, that double-edged sword becomes a single-edged sword.

Even though it's not what's being voted on, I'd like people to really think about which component of Rak/Slowbrother combination is the broken one. More replays of Rak with/without Slowking support could be helpful.
 
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