★ np: SS UU Stage 10.3 - Pumped Up Kicks

[Indigo Plateau]

​

Hey all, the council has been actively discussing the UU metagame after the Kommo-o suspect and have decided that it's time to suspect everyone's favorite weasel, Mienshao.

Anyone that's been playing the tier (or any lower tier in the past months) knows how insane Mienshao is offensively; base 105 Speed, Regenerator, access to incredible utility in Knock Off and U-turn, and a variety of coverage options like Poison Jab, Blaze Kick, and Stone Edge make it a nightmare to handle for any team. In the second half of SCL and primarily after Kommo-o's departure, LO Mienshao has seen a big rise in usage. Defensively checking LO Mienshao is extremely difficult, with options like Regenerator cores of Amoonguss + Slowking and more niche Pokemon like Weezing-G or Slowbro-G being the most popular, while offensive Pokemon severely struggle to switch into any of its moves and rely on the naturally faster Pokemon or Choice Scarfers as the sole revenge killers. Choice Scarf is still a very solid item on it and serves as a fantastic late game cleaner and momentum gainer. Although Mienshao offers little defensive utility, Kommo-o's ban has seen glues that fit well alongside Mienshao like Amoonguss resurge in usage, helping mitigate this flaw. Even slow momentum users like Flip Turn Swampert and U-turn Mandibuzz are common alongside it for the aforementioned reasons. Its offensive prowess has helped VoltTurn offenses take the tournament scene by storm the past few weeks. Simply put, there are very little scenarios where using Mienshao is a detriment to your team.

On another note, in our most recent survey, Thundurus-Therian was a very popular option to get suspected next and I know a lot of you might find it shocking that Mienshao got the spotlight first. The council discussed both of these Pokemon for quite a while and we were okay with a suspect on either, but Mienshao seemed to be the slightly more popular option as of right now. We are very likely holding a Thundurus-T suspect after this test regardless of the outcome.

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU11M (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU11M IP to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Monday, December 20th at 7:00 PM GMT -5 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!

Current UU Council

Adaam
Amane Misa
Askov
Indigo Plateau
Lily
LNumbers
Moutemoute
pokemonisfun
TDK
TSR

 

[Moutemoute]

Quick post.

Council debated a lot if we should take actions against Mienshao or Thundurus-T since the latter was mentionned in our last survey.
Most people agreed that both of them may be an issue right now and we basically voted to see which one should be the first to be suspected.
Just so you know, as a council member, I agree with this suspect test but I would have prefered to see Thundurus-T suspected first because it's a roaming issue since a long time now (basically since its Incarnate form was banned).

However, Mienshao is obviously better than ever right now and we can't let things like that so here we are with a brand new suspect test. Mienshao's speed tier is insanely great in a metagame were Keldeo and LycanDusk are almost non-existent. It's able to revenge kill so much staples such as Nihilego or Thundurus-T and can adapt itself in order to bypass its checks thanks to Poison Jab which dent fairies such as Azumarill and Primarina, Stone Edge to nuke Salamence and Moltres or Blaze Kick to pressure Amoonguss. It's also quite hard to punish Mienshao because Regenerator is one of the best ability in the game and it allows Shao to go back and forth on the field without really fearing LO recoil or Entry Hazards. One of the best way to pressure it is probably to punish it with something like Flame Body Moltres or Rocky Helmet Neutralizing Gas Weezing-Galar but once again, this isn't a great way. In the long run, Mienshao is really oppressive for a lot of teams since it's able to perform during the whole game and it can be brought on the field with so much ease because of how much great pivot we have in this tier. Overall I think Mienshao restrains the way people are building and playing and I'm almost convinced I'll vote ban if I have the time to get my reqs.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

Please make sure that any posts from here on out add substance to the topic of the thread. I’ll be deleting any posts that are just complaints on the suspect and don’t add anything regarding Mienshao. Feel free to PM me with any complaints in private. Thanks!

 

[Monky25]

Mienshao Check Compendium

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This post is not meant to be an argument of whether or not to ban Mienshao, but rather a compendium of all the viable and relatively good Pokemon in the tier that can check mienshao. For my own personal opinion I lean DNB, mainly because I haven't gotten the time to see Mienshao in a "broken" light and that I typically lean DNB on majority of suspects initially anyway (except thundurus-incarnate fuck that guy). The post first describes the most threatening Mienshao set (seen directly below) and then lists off counterplay to this set. Like I said earlier, this is mostly a resource post for quick and easy access for whoever to use in their argument.

1. The Set

Mienshao @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Poison Jab

This is Mienshao's most dangerous set, being a ferocious wallbreaker that is very difficult to switch into. Before going on to the checks I have a few things to say. First, even though it can run stone edge or blaze kick over Poison Jab, I see them as vastly inferior and won't include them in my argument, not to mention this set is the most common LO variant as well. Sure, you can use edge for moltres or blaze kick for amoonguss, but I feel Poison Jab offers much better utility overall, being able to threaten Fairy-types like Primarina, Tapu Bulu, Hatterene, and Azumarill while the other threats can be covered elsewhere. Moltres hates knock whereas blaze kick is good for amoonguss only really. They're just useable move options, but I don't feel this supposed versatility is big in making mienshao problematic.

Next, we need to establish the definition of a check and counter, mostly so some dumbfuck asshole doesn't go "well actually starmie doesn't check mienshao because it doesn't want to switch in." Stfu its a check alright. Using the Smogon Issue 32, the same standard I apply to my Victim of the Week project, the standard for checks and counters is "Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax. Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax."

Now that we have a standard definition as well as the reasoning for the set chosen established, I lastly want to say that in general I feel players should stop looking to see if every Pokemon has a hard stop, no way around it counter. Some Pokemon just aren't like this, the closest thing Mienshao has is Galarian weezing but that requires wish support to keep it from being worn down. That's fine, in my own personal opinion a few checks/soft checks on a team can work to deal with the most threatening Pokemon rather than trying to fit a hard counter always.

2. The Counterplay- Down below are all the checks to Mienshao that I consider decent in the tier (B+ viability or higher+ a few others). This is based off my own personal VR, not the thread since its hella outdated. I can assure you though I don't have insanely hot takes and most players will agree with my observation of these checks to be viable in the larger metagame outside of beating Mienshao.

Offensive checks

- not really a check but I’ll include this anyway. With kings shield it does have major benefits against mienshao, lowering Mienshao's attack, making a defensive switch-in like Salamence or slowking much more reliable against taking on mienshao as aegislash switches out.

- seems people forgot about this big boi, it has enough bulk to eat a CC if needed and regain its health with drain punch in a 1v1, though it also can come in easily with a free switch on a chipped shao, being able to kill with Mach or take advantage of the forced switch to punish these voltturn heavy teams that can't really switch in barring salamence on some builds. Azumarill can also do the same, though to a lesser extent since its much easier to wall.

-we also have choice scarfers everyone, don't forget them! These 3 are all solid scarfers that aren't complete dogshit and can revenge kill Mienshao if needed.

- I'm grouping these three together since they all fall into the same category- hella fast mons that can slam the common voltturn teams going around, taking advantage of fastest mon zarude in terms of natural speed tiers. Starmie has made a great showing these past 2 weeks of snake, taking advantage of these teams lacking a way to switch into it. Azelf and Zygarde are similar in this fashion.

- these 4 fit into the same criteria as the above mons but certainly less splashable, though cobalion has trended in usage lately as a solid rocker and pivot that can beat, you guessed it, Life Orb Mienshao.
Defensive checks (not necessarily defensive Pokemon but rather Pokemon that can switch into Mienshao if needed)

- anyone who has played SS UU lately knows the rise of the great fungus. Amoonguss has trended as the premier defensive grass, handling zarude, mienshao, and primarina while also hella punishing teams with spore. Its access to regenerator allows it to consistently pivot into mienshao throughout a game. It doesn't like blaze kick but a) it needs to be decently chipped to KO and b) mienshao makes itself worse off against primarina for example, so a core of amoonguss + prim can handle that while also covering a large amount of the metagame for example.

- probably the most consistent mienshao check, even so close to being considered a counter, galarian weezing is great against mienshao, wearing it down with rocky helmet while preventing regenerator thanks to natural gas, keeping mienshao from offsetting its LO recoil. It gets worn down easily though, so a cleric like jirachi or umbreon is helpful in supporting galarian weezing to be a better check to the Pokemon it needs to beat.

- grouping these two together as Close combat deterrents with reliable recovery, especially the latter as it can catch greedy shaos with a flame body burn, ruining it for the rest of the game. They don't like knock, though rapid spin from excadrill can patch this shortcoming. There's a recurring trend here, where even though these individually may not be enough, the help of other Pokemon who are viable regardless can make shao easier to check.

- can pivot into CC like others above, needs to watch for U-turn repeated chip, though it can certainly eat a hit, then pivot out as it takes a U-turn while healing itself with regenerator.

- lastly we have the forgotten one. Glowbro quad resists fighting, making it an excellent pivot into CC. Colbur variants don't mind knock either. There could be a resurgence of CM glowbro in response to mienshao becoming so prominent, though other sets like 3 attacks slack off could see some experimentation as well.

So yeah, that's it. Here are all the offensive and defensive checks to the posted Mienshao set I can think of. As said earlier, this mainly serves as a starting discussion point as well as a list of all the Mienshao counterplay that exists, I'm not trying to argue one way or the other despite how it seems. I'm just remaining objective. Surely it is not too hard to fit two of these on a team, though that could just be me. Anyway, I hope this post was a good read and I look forward to more discussion on Mienshao.

 

[Sage]

If nobody else has anything to say (dire) I guess I will talk then lol

I don't really have a good grasp of the meta at all, so if people want to ban Mienshao for its suffocation in the builder, that is understandable and I won't talk about that, but I do not see as many of the problems that were highlighted when it comes to in practice gameplay.

My team did not feel like it was overpreparing for LO Shao (unquestionably the "broken" set), with only one Fighting and U-turn weak Pokemon outspeeding it (Scarf Hydra), one comfortable long term pivot (Tangrowth), and two things that could trade favorably with no prior chip (King, Primarina). What I found in practice was that if I leveraged my offensive threats correctly, Mienshao did not have a ton of chances to come in (with Mandibuzz being the most likely pokemon that faciliates multiple Shao switches vs. my team specifically), and I only lost one game specifically to Mienshao in about eight or so that I faced. For me it's a mindset thing where sometimes I need to accept that Mienshao will be generating tons of momentum for the opponent, and pick my spots where I can make progress in a way that will make the free pivots impossible.

I also think you can build teams that long-term lose to Mienshao, but are making progress vs. the pivots that bring it in (Mandibuzz, Amoonguss, Slowking, Swampert, really all the slow pivots) to a point where you endgame the opposing Shao user faster and win with an offensive pokemon like Zygarde-10, Azelf, or Keldeo, putting a LO Shao in a place where even though they've been breaking and sustaining the whole time there is nothing to be done in a lategame scenario where you are at risk of getting cleaned.

As for how my own Shao usage felt, it felt strong vs. passive teams where it could make progress with Knock Off and generate its own switches, but honestly not that great vs. most of the offense I saw on the ladder. This is in part due to the gimmicky nature of a lot of ladder teams (Screens, Weather, etc.) but I also feel like there's a lot of offensive Pokemon which just do not let Shao breathe that are good picks in their own right and can fit on slower-paced teams as well. Poison Jab is 100% the best fourth slot which I used on this team due to King's inability to come in and threaten Prima / Azu, but there were many times I wanted Stone Edge or Blaze Kick instead depending on the defensive backbones of the team I was fighting. Scouting a Shao has never felt impossible to me, and the slight early holes it can put you in are easily climbable. Stall has a good amount of counterplay where a Mienshao will not roll it over (the pif team with Galarian Weezing in particular doing a fine job of handling it), and I don't think it's a bad thing to have a Pokemon that thrives on eating fat balances.

Might be convinced by bans once people start talking more and doing more in depth analysis, but surface thoughts say no ban for me.

 

[Totomon]

I got reqs a few days ago, and while I was a bit undecided at first, I think I have my thoughts clear now so I will try to explain why I think Mienshao is broken and should be banned.
(Starting posts do be very hard)

It is no secret that Mienshao has been a threat even as past as the October shifts, but right now it and also by extension the rest of the VoltTurn fellas have reached a point where I believe they harm the development of the meta. First of all, Mienshao itself is an offensive pivot and wallbreaker which loves to create tons of momentum to position its teammates and break huge holes when given the circumstances to do so, UU does have its fair share of experience with this kind of mons (and there are still similar mons in the meta which can fulfill the role if it does get banned) but what differentiates Mienshao from others that we have seen before or are still roaming around is that Shao is way too strong and basically unpunishable.

Unlike a similar pivot like say Zarude, where honestly a bunch of random mons can tank its hits relegating it to constantly U-Turn against certain structures, Shao's ability to freely run a boosting item + its expansive coverage limit its pool of switchins to be very awkward and mostly exploitable by teammates (like we saw with Monky's compendium above, where IMO only 3 are really comfortable scouting) Not only that but most methods of commonly punishing physical attackers are unavailable thanks to regen, making rocky helmet basically useless. Also where something like Thundurus-I had to be careful during the course of a game of tanking a random resisted move like a Jirachi Iron Head, Shao can be very aggressive with its plays by switching into resisted hits and easily offsetting the damage and outlasting its checks. Does this mean I think Regen is bad for the meta or broken? No, not really, this is exclusive to shao due to being the only offensive pivot in UU that has it, the fat grasses are needed to take hits and a lot of the time they are victims of VoltTurn chains, that + hazards can weaken them rly badly or force them to use a move like Synthesis, losing momentum. Shao's need to rly only take weak hits, or most of the time just offset LO/Rocky is what makes it basically unkillable (Not to mention it resists Stealth Rock, differentiating it even more from the other regen mons). A lot of what Ive been seeing and talking about with people is that you really don't punish Mienshao, you always try to punish its teammates and backbone backing it which I am not too sure it is entirely healthy.

Footage of the only low Mienshao

(This picture isn't rly an argument, I just thought it was funny how this guy came like two/three times into a similar setup like this and shao still survived, it was LO and I had helmet skarm btw) (Also why is the song Pumped up Kicks, I didn't get the joke :[ )

Shao's insane power and positioning abilities limit the viable teamstyles and compositions to a toxic level, the way I see it. Mienshao VoltTurn offenses and similar structures dominated previous weeks of UUSD while in the current week I think we saw a ton of overpreparation with various matches being Amoonguss BO Ditto's and we even saw Zydog/Azelf + Amoonguss twice against each other (which should in theory punish shao teams rly hard), I think this is a sign of Toxic metagame adaptions and a big reason shao should go. Fatter BO's or Balances (and even Stall in some ways) that we saw before are on a really hard decline atm due to how unforgiving Shao and friends can be with only a small amount of correct predictions needed, while other teamstyles that should do good against Shao teams, like full HO, arent in the best spot right now.

TLDR: Shao is way too strong and unpunishable for a pivot, The teams it fits have other playstyles on a chokehold and lead to toxic metagame adaptations. BAN

 

[BigFatMantis]

Mienshao has zero defensive utility and is not really in an "elite" Speed tier, just a very good Speed tier. I would say it is admittedly the strongest thing in the tier atm, much more "problematic" than something like Thundurus since it can deal massive damage to your textbook physical walls (Thundurus cannot do this to the special walls with it's standard set, and is also slower). But, after getting reqs, I never felt like Mienshao was in any way cheap or overpowering. It was just very good, and if forces you to play precisely in order to win, which, in my opinion, is not a bad thing. I'll be voting No Ban for sure.

I feel as though, after banning the other mons (Latias, Kommo, etc.), we just kind of expected to play the meta the same exact way without changing anything and assuming that'd be ok. Well, things change when you ban something, and a lot of times it can have an unexpected effect whereby something becomes more powerful (Mienshao), but we haven't yet spent the time exploring how to handle it effectively. For starters, the Scarf Shao set is absolutely not overbearing in the slightest, so while you have to respect it, you don't have to worry much after it's scouted. For the Life Orb set, it really depends on the last move, but a lot of team structures can handle any combination of it (for example, a Tangrowth/Colbur Slowking can handle nearly all sets, while a Primarina team can more easily pivot into a non-Poison Jab set, and a Moltres team can more easily handle a non-Stone Edge team). Is that annoying? Yes, it is, but that's just mons - you have to build for what's good at the moment, and as long as there are still options to deal with it, I don't think there's a reason to just toss it aside. There's also other things like Sableye that are very unexplored atm and don't really let Mienshao gain much ground (I've used it before and it does quite well). And don't forget your Eject Button Mushrooms to gain back the momentum.

Another thing I have noticed is that sometimes we just hate things that break fatter structures too easily and effortlessly which, admittedly, Mienshao does pretty well. But if that's the case, then maybe fatter builds just aren't very good at the moment. The meta comes in ebbs and flows, and what's good today may not be so great tomorrow. We should not be catering to improve any specific playstyles, and if fatter balance teams suffer because of Mienshao's existence then so be it - as long as there plenty of fast breakers that OHKO Mienshao or revenge it easily, I am very skeptical on banning it. And yeah Regenerator is a great ability, but you are still going to KO Mienshao at 70% unless your team has awful offensive capabilities. We should not get too carried away with banning paper thin mons that break fast but get broken faster.

 

[mushamu]

For the Life Orb set, it really depends on the last move, but a lot of team structures can handle any combination of it (for example, a Tangrowth/Colbur Slowking can handle nearly all sets, while a Primarina team can more easily pivot into a non-Poison Jab set, and a Moltres team can more easily handle a non-Stone Edge team). Is that annoying?

Tangrowth + Slowking doesn’t handle LO mienshao well. Close combat + u turn does around 70% ish to both and forces them to use their recovery moves if they carry it. The whole reason as to why lo shao is great is because knock + attacking move with uturn is so amazing in this meta and meinshao can spam this an infinite times if you throw in regenerator with disgusting offensive firepower. Primarina takes a decent amount from close combat and is forced to rest. It can easily lose the game long term since the shao user can just remove lefties + click u turn and then overwhelm the chipped Primarina the next time it tries to come in after switching to an answer like amoonguss. You don’t need stone edge to handle moltres; I’d say stone edge is for ohkoing thundy t if anything but knock off handles moltres and Salamance fine long term because removing boots from these Pokémon means they’re punished so much more when switching into shao (or other Pokémon) with rocks up.

It’s true that you have to build for what’s good at the moment, but you have to understand that preparing for life orb mienshao in the builder is a nightmare because of how unwallable it is. There’s always going to be ways to deal with a lot of Pokémon, but having ways to deal with a certain Pokémon doesn’t necessarily mean the Pokémon is balanced; I don’t think sableye is a valid point either because it’s easily overwhelmed outside of checking mienshao (not to mention mienshao can just u turn on a predicted sableye switch to maintain momentum.) Having to use something niche like gweezing or unviable like sableye just so that shao doesn’t take or heavily dent one of your Pokémon when it gets a free turn only proves further how unhealthy this Pokémon is.

Another thing I have noticed is that sometimes we just hate things that break fatter structures too easily and effortlessly which, admittedly, Mienshao does pretty well. But if that's the case, then maybe fatter builds just aren't very good at the moment. The meta comes in ebbs and flows, and what's good today may not be so great tomorrow. We should not be catering to improve any specific playstyles, and if fatter balance teams suffer because of Mienshao's existence then so be it - as long as there plenty of fast breakers that OHKO Mienshao or revenge it easily, I am very skeptical on banning it.

You’re right that breaking fatter structures doesnt really make something broken straight up. Mienshao is a different case though, where it doesn’t really break just fat; it’s good against balance and other playstyles as well, and the metagame development it promotes isn’t healthy at all. There are a few very niche direct shao answers, the main thing that comes to mind being gweezing, but if you don’t use these niche mienshao answers then the solution to the shao problem is to basically just 1. Try to “outplay” a Pokémon that has hardly any drawback clicking 125 base attack life orb boosted attacks many times throughout the game considering regenerator or 2. Use a team that life orb shao cannot punish at all. The second option isn’t healthy metagame development at all considering there are many pokemon that 105 speed can outpace and force out; you are basically suggesting someone to not use Pokémon that would otherwise be very good in thundy t, excadrill, hydreigon, Tapu bulu, krookodile, mamoswine, and Chansey just because lo shao takes advantage of them. Preparing for mienshao isn’t the definition of healthy metagame development; it’s shao warping the metagame around it because it’s so hard to punish it in the builder unless u opt for extremely niche team structures and Pokémon.

And yeah Regenerator is a great ability, but you are still going to KO Mienshao at 70% unless your team has awful offensive capabilities. We should not get too carried away with banning paper thin mons that break fast but get broken faster.

Regenerator is a great ability on lo mienshao because it allows it to unleash firepower throughout a game and not really care about chip damage. A lot of life orb wallbreakers get worn down easily unless they have a form of recovery which makes them more balanced, but mienshao can basically just click a few times, switch out, and do it again. You can have good revenge killers, but lo mienshao is a wallbreaker that gets a lot of opportunities to beat down slower Pokémon throughout a game due to its ability. I haven’t been paying attention to uusd or scl but I think my g1 vs Xiri is a good example of this where I was instantly put in a such a great position because mienshao got just one free turn early game. Rocky helmet chip from tangrowth and life orb recoil was irrelevant unless mienshao became incredibly low because regenerator directly cancels out any progress the chip damage would make on shao and lets it keep making progress. Notice how Xiri couldn’t really let exca die because losing exca (a Pokémon that’s taken advantage of by shao) means he loses to spikes golis so he’s therefore put into a really awkward position simply because of just 1 turn that was gotten right. It’s not always a matter of “regen isn’t good on lo shao because it’s super frail” when it takes away a lot of the drawback mienshao has as a life orb wallbreaker.

I think you are viewing mienshao in the wrong light by not considering how badly it warps building compared to other healthy Pokémon and just how good the combination of regenerator + life orb + 125 attack and 105 speed is. I personally don’t have the time to get reqs because of irl stuff but I definitely think shao should go and shao being banned would free up a lot of the tier in both a building and playing sense.

 

[udongirl]

I used mienshao. But its very poor bulk caused so many problems more than I thought.

1. Hard to set

Mienshao can't come to field without a pivot. pro-ban players think this problem is not big because UU pivots are so good. But its false.
Pivots are not always able to carry shao because all players are concerned about mienshao. Even though your pivot succeeded to set mienshao, the pivot loses so many HP because UU is very offensive tier.

2.Bad at 1v1

It looks not a big issue but I struggle about that. Shao has great atk but it is not enough to kill full HP mons, And cc lowers its poor bulk to be OHKOed by defensive mons.
Use uturn? Yes it can run away from mons which beat shao at 1v1. However, uturning means mienshao switches out, and it‘s hard to come back to the battle again without pokemon's fainting.

3. Weak to sweeper

Mienshao's speed tier is excellent but it is outspeeded by boosted mons, of course.
Mienshao's teammates always exhaust to set mienshao freely and hard to stop sweeper.

In conclusion, mienshao is good at keeping momentum but not good at take back it.
I think mienshao makes games comfortable but not broken. Thanks to read my bad English,

 

[Tidal]

Well I had a video prepared but that unfortunately didn't turn out alright, so here we go!



What makes Mienshao monumental?

Mienshao's massive surge in usage likely hasn't surprised anyone, being not only an incredibly versatile offensive Pokemon, but a potent one too. With plenty of positive assets, it was able to (almost) single-handedly make VoltTurn Offense the most dominant playstyle in the metagame, while also fitting well on a number of Bulky Offenses. In this post, I simply want to sum up what Mienshao is great at and what it falls short at and evaluate each sides arguments. Without any further ado, lets begin!

Strengths

Mienshao's powerful offensive presence is a large factor to why its shot up recently. With a strong base 125 Attack and great Speed tier at 105, it is able to blow past a lot of common Pokemon like Excadrill, Skarmory and Nihilego. Its access to both Knock Off and U-turn make it an extremely potent pivot, being able to not only force switches but generate its own momentum if checks like Primarina and Amoonguss are coming in. Life Orb sets, though were at first very difficult to build with have become one of, if not the, best wallbreaker in the tier. With that high of an Attack stat, coupled with STAB Close Combat and a Life Orb boost, it is clear its offensive prowess should not be scoffed at and must be respected. Choice Scarf sets are also extremely effective, becoming excellent revenge killers to other strong offensive threats like Azelf, Zygarde-10% and Lycanroc-D while being able outpace other Choice Scarf users like Jirachi.

Regenerator is by far Mienshao's greatest asset, giving an extremely powerful wallbreaker the ability to consistently come in on the opposing team, keep itself healthy and be able to essentially ignore hazard damage without needing Heavy Duty Boots. Regenerator is an absolute blessing for Mienshao, offsetting the Life Orb damage it takes and letting it constantly threaten the opposing team. While a common argument for keeping Mienshao is that it’s bulk leaves a lot to be desired and has very little defensive utility, Regenerator essentially gives Mienshao its own defensive utility and makes it a very difficult Pokémon to chip down, as it also ignore items like Amoonguss’ and Tangrowth’s Rocky Helmet and its own Life Orb.

Mienshao's movepool is also reasonably large, with it being customise and pick what its checks are with whatever fourth move it chooses. Poison Jab is the most common, being able to offensively threaten Fairy-types like Primarina and Azumarill, as well as Grass-types like Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu. Poison Jab also allows Mienshao to fish for status on an opposing defensive check like Tangrowth, crippling it and reducing its longevity. Stone Edge allows Mienshao to threaten Flying-type Pokemon that may otherwise wall it like Moltres and Togekiss, and is an excellent choice on the Choice Scarf set due to its ability to outspeed and revenge kill +1 Gyarados and Salamence. Blaze Kick, though a more niche option that hasn't seen as much usage, is able to fish for status similarly to Poison Jab and hit Amoonguss, probably Mienshao’s best defensive check, for major damage.

Weaknesses

Mienshao’s bulk is rather subpar, only being able to take weak resisted or neutral hits. This gives you the option to either blast Mienshao out of the water with some good prediction or whittle it down severely, or keep up the pressure can give it a hard time to do much throughout the game.

Mienshao can suffer some flaws depending on what item or coverage it is running. If it’s a Life Orb set, Mienshao is comfortably revenge killed by the likes of Azelf, Starmie and Zygarde-10%. If it’s a Choice Scarf set, the decreased power can make Mienshao fall short of securing some KO’s and it often has to pay the price. If it’s Stone Edge, it finds Primarina and Hatterene hard to break through whereas Poison Jab sets can’t really back through Salamence or Moltres. While this can be a positive thing as it’s able to customise its checks and counters, it often means that it won’t be able to break through teams single-handedly.

My Opinion

In my personal opinion, Mienshao is incredibly restricting as an offensive Pokémon and I would like to see it go. Even against common defensive Pokémon like Primarina, Swampert and Amoonguss, who supposedly do a good job at checking Mienshao, it is able to overwhelm them by removing their item and chunking them with Close Combat, only for it to switch out and remove any progress made on it thanks to Regenerator. Mienshao forces a lot of specific team structures to be able to handle it, and as mushamu said above if we’re being shoehorned into using something incredibly niche like Sableye or Gweezing that is normally a sign of something being either restricting or unhealthy. While I do understand both sides of the argument, banning Mienshao seems to be the best course of action for making the tier a better place, being able to build much more freely and would balance out the tier a bit more. Mienshao’s presence within the tier is a large factor of why a lot of previously common Pokémon like Excadrill and Chansey have shot down in usage in favour of other Pokémon that don’t invite it in to wreak havoc. Mienshao is clearly a dominant presence within the tier and has a large impact on the current metagame, and in my personal opinion deserves to be banned.

​

 

[KM]

the vast majority of pro-ban arguments in this thread read like analyses, not ban reasonings. the mienshao-ban sentiment coming out of nowhere is super weird to me because it was barely even discussed prior to a few weeks ago. as far as I can tell, mienshao's role in the metagame is largely the same as it always has been -- i don't see the point in rehashing "knockturn + regen = good" when it's been doing that for the past four generations. my question to those with pro-ban sentiment is this: what has changed in the last month or so that has turned mienshao from a solid, b+/a-/a mon to the allegedly banworthy threat that it is now? for the purpose of having content in this post, i'll investigate a few potential answers and why i don't think they hold up under scrutiny.

1. Kommo-O's Ban

this is the only actual change to the metagame over the past month. I don't think there's any direct 1-1 lines you can make between kommo's ban and a purported rise of mienshao's brokenness. defensive Kommo-o sets were never really countering mienshao that hard (2hkod by cc after rocks even with heavy investment), and scarf mienshao was one of the only scarfers that could reliably revenge a low health offensive +1 kommo after a DD or a clangorous soul, improving its splashability. while you can make more abstract arguments that kommo-o's ban led to a decrease in HO teams that made LO shao less of a liability or that Kommo-o's ban boosted Zarude's ability to run a scarf to make LO shao easier to fit, these are not arguments specific to the viability of mienshao -- they also benefit other mons that were previously higher ranked than mien in the same way (thund, zarude, any offensive mon that struggles against HO) and don't directly point to mienshao being the problem.

2. The rise of Volt-Turn

now, I do agree with the analysis that Kommo-o's ban has led to the fall of many traditional HO structures, making volt turn offenses stronger in the short term. this is an association that has existed for long before this gen, and it doesn't surprise me at all that the key points of discussion around dominant mons in the meta are those that fit well on volt turn -- mienshao included. That said, I don't think it's fair to analyze these as a long-standing indication of volt turn being the best playstyle as much as it is just exactly what it is as face value -- a trend capitalizing on the most recent change in the metagame. we're already seeing answers to this trend popping up -- most notably, the rise in weather teams in snake draft and champs point to an acknowledgement that volt turn teams -- especially ones with frail mons like mienshao that offer minimal defensive utility -- often fail to fit the kind of defensive counterplay necessary to not immediately fold to hyper offensive teams like rain, sun, sand, or traditional HO.

even if we were to view this trend of volt turn teams as a long-term indication of what the meta would look like, I'm not convinced that mienshao would be the appropriate target. while mienshao is definitely a key player on these structures, it doesn't feel any more or less integral than zarude or thundurus-t or even something like swampert.

when you analyze it, the dominance of volt-turn teams over the last few weeks makes perfect sense. prior to kommo-o being banned, there were generally three dominant playstyles you saw. hyper offensive teams employing lead exca and stacking threats of gmolt, kommo, thund, etc, bulky teams with defensive cores like skarm-chans, slowking / mandi / moltres, fat grasses, etc that were able to stand up to the HO teams and slowly break them down, and strong volt-turn teams with the breaking power to beat out fat cores that struggled against the HO teams. with the ban of kommo-o and the near-instant drop off of those style of hyper offense teams, it stands to reason that volt turn teams would be the winner. that said, I still think this is only a sign of an inevitable and logical single step in the evolution of the meta rather than a permanent sign of the viability of certain playstyles, and the rise of different types of HO like weather supports that theory.

3. Mienshao has always been broken

I know there are a few people who hold this opinion, but I just don't think it's an opinion that stands up under scrutiny at all. While tournament winrates are a super imperfect metric of how good something is, they also aren't doing Mienshao any favors, with middling results like a ~42%win rate in UUSD (interestingly, its winrate during UUWC was actually higher at somewhere in the mid-high 50s). Usage prior to UUWC was similarly unimpressive, averaging around the high single digits or mid 10s depending. while there certainly has been a spike in usage over the last month or so, this differs from similar usage spikes (like those we saw with buzzwole + roserade during SCL) in that they were prompted by theories of volt-turn being stronger, not by high win / success rates of those mons. That's not to say that volt-turn teams with mienshao aren't good or even slightly centralizing at the very specific point of the meta we're in right now, but there is no statistical indication that they are the best style of teams.

reiterating here because i don't want people quoting this saying "small sample size win rate = nothing mien still broken" -- i'm NOT saying that a low win rate makes Mienshao not broken. I'm saying that the public perception of volt turn teams with mienshao dominating in a real game sense are not directly backed up by winrate statistics -- and that if the prompt is to answer the question "what has changed in the last month to make mienshao broken", one might expect to see that sentiment reflected in the numbers.

outside of tour results, mien has previously floated on the low end of usage in and out of tours (lest we forget it literally is not UU right now), been consistently ranked around the B+/A- area on the VR, and has generally been considered as a great option for certain teams that is often hard to fit with significant drawbacks.





in conclusion, i want to make my own stance on this super clear. I do not think mienshao's viability or place in the tier has fundamentally changed at all in the last month, nor do I think it is broken. It is, and always has been, a highly offensive mon that excels at breaking fatter structures / balance structures with minimal speed control in exchange for being incredibly frail, offering no defensive utility, and actively being a liability into playstyles like HO and weather. To that end, I do not find it surprising at all that it's getting a lot of attention in a meta that favors volt-turn structures, but I have yet to see any compelling evidence that either A. mienshao is critical, necessary, and reflective of these structures in a way that makes banning it an effective way to nerf the playstyle or that B. volt-turn is a long term dominant playstyle in the tier that will always be favored rather than a trend that overreacts to minor changes in the metagame that still loses to the same exact things it used to. i do not think mienshao should be banned and i invite those in favor of the ban to write posts in this thread that actually answer the fundamental question of "what has changed in the last month to make mienshao broken".

 

[pokemonisfun]

Short post on Mienshao:

I asked myself two main questions when trying to determine how I should vote: 1) Is Mienshao overpowered and 2) is the metagame such that you can build for top threats while also dealing with Mienshao?

Is Mienshao overpowered?

Regarding 1), Mienshao is exceptionally strong and has great coverage, but it's bad bulk means it can't 1v1 huge portions of the tier like Conkeldurr and Aegislash. Regenerator makes wearing down Mienshao harder but it doesn't give it that many switch in opportunities, it still takes skill to get it in. And most importantly, it doesn't help much with the 1v1 situation, a typical Life Orb Mienshao will never ever be able to 1v1 an Aegislash or Celesteela for example no matter how much health it regenerates. So Mienshao isn't overpowered for me.

Is the metagame such that you can build for top threats while also dealing with Mienshao?

I think 2) is the more interesting question and replays of recent notable gen8uu games in UUSD and UU Championship suggest to me the metagame can healthily adapt to Mienshao:

UUSD Week 6, Notily vs Axelsior: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-598098

Mienshao had a few correct predictions like turn 1, but that was neutered by Chople Berry and the mere presence of Aegislash means it was harder to spam Close Combat to damage Tangrowth. It's true that Aegislash shouldn't be your only switch in to Mienshao because Knock Off badly cripples it but the previous idea of Mienshao getting 1v1d by too much comes back in, crippled or not Aegislash could still beat Mienshao 1v1.

UUSD Week 6, Feliburn vs Stresh: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-598247

I won't say much about this since it doesn't use Life Orb Mienshao, opting for the much weaker AV set. But Poison Jab Mienshao it didn't win when the only Fighting resist was Bulu. I'll just say that really only Life Orb Mienshao can be considered broken in my view because other sets are too weak.

UUSD Week 6, Evigaro vs Luthier: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-598270

So here a Mienshao does work by outlasting an Amoonguss. The problem I see is that Amoonguss was either misplayed (never used Synthesis) or,more likely, didn't have Synthesis at all. Frankly, it's a small adaption to use Synthesis over Giga Drain that would have solved the Mienshao issue, Synthesis would have been free on turn 31 for example. I don't see what Grass STAB is needed on for Amoonguss. That, combined with in my view a poor turn 41 (Conkeldurr should have been selected over Zarude I believe), and in light of the fact this game was still close and Luthier needed to hax Primarina to win, means to me this game doesn't show Mienshao as a broken threat.

UUSD Week 6, mncmt vs cy: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-597846

Mienshao can do work for sure, but it has to contend with a Sylveon which is a fine metagame adaption over Primarina considering Sylveon's superior utility moves and ability to 1v1 Thundurus and Zarude much more capably than Primarina. The 1v1 issue crops up again here, AV Celesteela was actually hard to switch into and it simply beats Mienshao. The game was still close but Mienshao lost and it's not like it showed anything particularly broken here either.

UU Championships Round 2, pokemonisfun vs mushamu: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-598064

The Mienshao counterplay is pretty obvious - Salazzle as a Pokemon to outspeed Mienshao/Zarude/Thundurus speed tier and Colbur Berry Galarian Slowbro + defensive Primarina to limit Mienshao's breaking power. Mienshao isn't able to breakpast these Pokemon through the whole game and risky attempted snuffs it of life early on, showing how hard it can be to bring Mienshao in. I don't see what's wrong with this counterplay and there's really no way Mienshao can make progress without great teams support or playing very well (or luck) - that's just normal Pokemon stuff and means Mienshao isn't overly constraining.

So what do these replays show to me? Counter play like Colbur Berry Galarian Slowbro and Synthesis Amoonguss is immensely hard for Mienshao to break in practice. If Mienshao is a top threat, which it is, then we should consider Pokemon that can break the Mienshao structures like Monky25 mentioned, those base 115 speeds like Zygarde are perfectly good to limit Mienshao and we are still producing new threats like Salazzle.

We live in a society where top threats often have no true counters anymore - Aegislash for example, simply has no counter in the tier given it's wide range of sets + Toxic. That Mienshao still has some very nearly solid counters (Amoonguss, Galarian Slowbro, and Salamence) and the fact that it has a hard time 1v1 very large portions of the tier and coming in to make progress means to me Mienshao is not broken. I will vote do not ban.

 

[Zartres10]

Agree with and just want to echo KM and pif's points. Mienshao's quite flexible as a pivot, but it also has a lot of checks within the tier, and these checks are viable outside of their role of checking Mienshao. In addition, its flexibility only goes so far. It needs stone edge to deal with thundurus and salamence, it needs blaze kick to deal with amoonguss, and it needs poison jab to deal with fairies like primarina. Like others mentioned, it has very little durability, despite all the regenerating. It's easily forced out by a correct prediction, it can't 1v1 a large portion of the tier's threats, and it's forced to switch out against any faster mon (which are numerous, and each strong in their own right). Mienshao also really only has one set it can run (life orb), since all other sets lack necessary power, and things like choice scarf speed control can be better done by other mons.

Most people in this thread talking about Mienshao being "broken" refer to the regenerator, life orb, u-turn combo, but like KM said, that's more to do with Mienshao being an effective pivot and doesn't seem anywhere close to "broken" to me, as Mienshao definitely has a hard time switching in to even resisted hits and constant regeneration has mattered very little in my games because of how weak Mienshao is defensively. Also, as pif mentioned, banning mons based on whether they have a "counter" in the tier isn't a good idea, since most of the tier's threats don't have any true "counters" to speak of. In addition, to emphasize, Mienshao's checks aren't only limited to niche mons. Ultimately, slower balance teams might suffer with Mienshao staying, but that seems to me much more related to Mienshao's role as a pivot than how it's warping the meta around itself. Because of all these reasons, I will definitely vote do not ban.

 

[Monky25]

UU Snake Usage Stats and Trends- The Shao Dynasty

I'm back again with another usage stats post discussing trends in the UnderUsed Snake Draft. I would've done another post earlier but the Mienshao test threw me off and I decided to wait until it was over before doing another post. The last one will be after the entire tournament is done. Anyway, these stats reflects the 4 weeks of Mienshao dominance and post Kommo-o metagame, so we can see the effect it had on the metagame and what was used to counteract it. Now that it's gone, there will def be a shakeup in usage in these last weeks of the tour.

Week 3

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Thundurus-Therian  |    9 |  37.50% |  33.33% |
| 2    | Mienshao           |    7 |  29.17% |  71.43% |
| 2    | Mandibuzz          |    7 |  29.17% |  14.29% |
| 4    | Amoonguss          |    6 |  25.00% |  83.33% |
| 4    | Cobalion           |    6 |  25.00% |  66.67% |
| 4    | Swampert           |    6 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Nihilego           |    6 |  25.00% |  33.33% |
| 4    | Aegislash          |    6 |  25.00% |  33.33% |
| 9    | Moltres            |    5 |  20.83% |  80.00% |
| 9    | Zarude             |    5 |  20.83% |  60.00% |
| 11   | Zarude-Dada        |    4 |  16.67% |  75.00% |
| 11   | Skarmory           |    4 |  16.67% |  75.00% |
| 11   | Azumarill          |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Mamoswine          |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Salamence          |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Primarina          |    4 |  16.67% |  25.00% |
| 17   | Starmie            |    3 |  12.50% | 100.00% |
| 17   | Hydreigon          |    3 |  12.50% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Celesteela         |    3 |  12.50% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Excadrill          |    3 |  12.50% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Roserade           |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Diggersby          |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Jirachi            |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 17   | Tapu Bulu          |    3 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Tentacruel         |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Klefki             |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Chandelure         |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Cresselia          |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Conkeldurr         |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 30   | Toxtricity         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Seismitoad         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Weezing-Galar      |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Azelf              |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Magneton           |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Gigalith           |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Rhyperior          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Tangrowth          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Registeel          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Zygarde-10%        |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Scolipede          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Haxorus            |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Lycanroc-Dusk      |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Torkoal            |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Venusaur           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Darmanitan         |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Chansey            |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Marowak-Alola      |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Porygon2           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Stakataka          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Slowbro-Galar      |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Salazzle           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Crawdaunt          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |

Week 4

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Mienshao           |   12 |  50.00% |  58.33% |
| 2    | Salamence          |    8 |  33.33% |  62.50% |
| 3    | Amoonguss          |    7 |  29.17% |  85.71% |
| 3    | Excadrill          |    7 |  29.17% |  14.29% |
| 5    | Swampert           |    6 |  25.00% | 100.00% |
| 5    | Thundurus-Therian  |    6 |  25.00% |  66.67% |
| 5    | Celesteela         |    6 |  25.00% |  66.67% |
| 5    | Jirachi            |    6 |  25.00% |  66.67% |
| 5    | Primarina          |    6 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Moltres-Galar      |    5 |  20.83% |  80.00% |
| 10   | Hydreigon          |    5 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 10   | Nihilego           |    5 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 13   | Cobalion           |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Mamoswine          |    4 |  16.67% |  25.00% |
| 13   | Tentacruel         |    4 |  16.67% |  25.00% |
| 13   | Zarude             |    4 |  16.67% |  25.00% |
| 13   | Tangrowth          |    4 |  16.67% |   0.00% |
| 18   | Zygarde-10%        |    3 |  12.50% |  66.67% |
| 18   | Aegislash          |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 18   | Slowking           |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 21   | Skarmory           |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Zarude-Dada        |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Mandibuzz          |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Keldeo             |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Tapu Bulu          |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 21   | Gyarados           |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Azelf              |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 21   | Diancie            |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Entei              |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Volcanion          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Chansey            |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Darmanitan         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Celebi             |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Diggersby          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Starmie            |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Tornadus           |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Krookodile         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Scolipede          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 29   | Conkeldurr         |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Reuniclus          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Slowbro-Galar      |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Nidoking           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Gigalith           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Sylveon            |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Registeel          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Azumarill          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Raikou             |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 29   | Moltres            |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |

Week 5

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Thundurus-Therian  |   10 |  41.67% |  40.00% |
| 1    | Amoonguss          |   10 |  41.67% |  40.00% |
| 3    | Cobalion           |    9 |  37.50% |  55.56% |
| 4    | Mienshao           |    6 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 4    | Celesteela         |    6 |  25.00% |  33.33% |
| 4    | Swampert           |    6 |  25.00% |  33.33% |
| 7    | Primarina          |    5 |  20.83% |  80.00% |
| 7    | Azelf              |    5 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 9    | Excadrill          |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Zygarde-10%        |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 9    | Hydreigon          |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Hatterene          |    3 |  12.50% | 100.00% |
| 12   | Jirachi            |    3 |  12.50% |  66.67% |
| 12   | Mamoswine          |    3 |  12.50% |  66.67% |
| 12   | Zarude-Dada        |    3 |  12.50% |  66.67% |
| 12   | Salamence          |    3 |  12.50% |  66.67% |
| 12   | Moltres            |    3 |  12.50% |  66.67% |
| 12   | Starmie            |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 12   | Skarmory           |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 12   | Diggersby          |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 12   | Chansey            |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Torkoal            |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Venusaur           |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Necrozma           |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Tangrowth          |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Nihilego           |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Slowbro-Galar      |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Slowking           |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Mandibuzz          |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Moltres-Galar      |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Azumarill          |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Zarude             |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Shiftry            |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Grimmsnarl         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Cresselia          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Darmanitan         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Gyarados           |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Conkeldurr         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Mantine            |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Rhyperior          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Vanilluxe          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Weezing-Galar      |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 33   | Sharpedo           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Aegislash          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Scolipede          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Nidoking           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Froslass           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Toxtricity         |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Salazzle           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Tornadus           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Suicune            |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Tapu Bulu          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 33   | Krookodile         |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |

Week 6

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Mienshao           |   10 |  41.67% |  60.00% |
| 2    | Aegislash          |    7 |  29.17% |  71.43% |
| 2    | Tangrowth          |    7 |  29.17% |  57.14% |
| 4    | Swampert           |    6 |  25.00% |  66.67% |
| 4    | Amoonguss          |    6 |  25.00% |  50.00% |
| 6    | Mandibuzz          |    5 |  20.83% |  80.00% |
| 6    | Azelf              |    5 |  20.83% |  80.00% |
| 6    | Zygarde-10%        |    5 |  20.83% |  60.00% |
| 6    | Slowking           |    5 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 6    | Jirachi            |    5 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 6    | Zarude-Dada        |    5 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 6    | Salamence          |    5 |  20.83% |  40.00% |
| 13   | Cobalion           |    4 |  16.67% |  50.00% |
| 13   | Excadrill          |    4 |  16.67% |  25.00% |
| 15   | Chansey            |    3 |  12.50% |  66.67% |
| 15   | Rotom-Heat         |    3 |  12.50% |  66.67% |
| 15   | Cresselia          |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Crobat             |    3 |  12.50% |  33.33% |
| 15   | Conkeldurr         |    3 |  12.50% |   0.00% |
| 20   | Celesteela         |    2 |   8.33% | 100.00% |
| 20   | Keldeo             |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Thundurus-Therian  |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Cofagrigus         |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Suicune            |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Diggersby          |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Zarude             |    2 |   8.33% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Nihilego           |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 20   | Chandelure         |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 20   | Primarina          |    2 |   8.33% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Slowbro-Galar      |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Thievul            |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Polteageist        |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Indeedee-F         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Slurpuff           |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Rotom-Wash         |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Sylveon            |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Nidoqueen          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Registeel          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Tapu Bulu          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Drapion            |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Hydreigon          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Weezing-Galar      |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Rhyperior          |    1 |   4.17% | 100.00% |
| 30   | Politoed           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Tornadus           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Kabutops           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Froslass           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Blastoise          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Moltres-Galar      |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Moltres            |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Krookodile         |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Azumarill          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Crawdaunt          |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Ditto              |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Mesprit            |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Marowak-Alola      |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Porygon2           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Gyarados           |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |
| 30   | Raikou             |    1 |   4.17% |   0.00% |

The Terrible Two

These two deadly pivots need no introduction, they've been dominating the metagame for the entirely of Snake. Both are superb pivots with excellent wallbreaking power. That's not all though, they pair excellently well together, bringing each other in to wallbreak while wearing the team down, making the duo nightmarish to face. Mienshao is the most used Pokemon in ALL the weeks, being brought on about 1/3 of all total teams, not to mention sporting above a 50% winrate overall. Thundurus isn't that far, being brought on about 29% of teams the tour and sporting a 47% winrate. With shao gone, the metagame can more adequately prepare for thundurus, so it'll be interesting to see whether thundurus continues being dominant even after losing its best partner or if it will decline a bit.

Stupid Mushroom Never Dies

*insert among us joke* But seriously, Amoonguss has emerged as THE defensive Pokemon in the metagame. A great typing, regenerator, and access to the annoying spore has yielded Amoonguss amazing success in snake, even being the most used Pokemon Week 5. With Kommo-o leaving the tier, amoong has become much more splashable, being able to check Zarude, Mienshao, and Primarina all in one slot. Many players have come to believe its a top 5 metagame Pokemon, and I 100% agree. With shao gone there's a bit less reason to use it, but Amoong will always have a place at the top.

Rising Stars

With the metagame being heavily developed around Voltturn with Mienshao and Thundurus being on the top of everyone's minds, these Pokemon have gotten prominent usage in response to these trends. Azelf is an amazing pivot and wallbreaker, being the fastest threat in the tier with the goated Knockturn prowess. Great coverage options of Flamethrower, Energy ball, and Shadow ball make Azelf even more scary to face. Choice Scarf set, a set I never thought I'd see Azelf run, has been great, outspeeding even scarf Mienshao and Zarude while being an unexpected foe to face, as it can trick unsuspecting slowking for example. Azelf has gone a long way to finally becoming a respected threat in UU. Meanwhile, Salamence has also become a lot more prominent after its decline these shifts, losing competition in kommo-o and latias. Checking Mienshao, Zarude, Tapu Bulu, and Excadrill in a slot while pressuring conkeldurr and amoonguss has become quite valuable to teams. It can still run the classic wallbreaking set on Voltturn teams, or it can opt for a defog set to perma off all hazards in conjunction with excadrill, enabling rocks weak breakers like Chandelure or... Vanilluxe!? As for Cobalion, once memed as the sewage mon, it has grown very popular as players experiment with new rocker options that aren't Excadrill. Outspeeding the zarude/shao/thundurus cores and being a rocker that can pivot has garned Cobalion great success in the more recent weeks of snake, even being the #3 most used in week 5. It got top 10 in cumulative usage even, showing the value it has. It'll be interesting to see whether it stays used post Mienshao or will it die out from this trend. And last and certainly not least, we have the goated axolotl Swampert. Dominating the usage stats nearly every week, Swampert has clearly shown itself to be a UU staple. It's arguably the most reliable rocker against removers like Excadrill and will always make progress with flip turn, allowing it to find itself on many offensive teams. It's quite customizable, being able to go physdef or spdef. It's also very fat and will eat most hits. Being #5 cumulatively shows just how good Swampert is, hopefully earning the respect it deserves in the eyes of the playerbase.

Fallen Warriors

With rising stars there also has to be fallen warriors, Pokemon who end up being less effective as the metagame develops and changes. One such example is Skarmory, at first dominating usage in the first 2 weeks of snake only to fall off in the latest weeks. It's complete food for Voltturn because of its passivity, as letting thundurus in is a really big no-no. Celesteela's greater mixed bulk and ability to check Aegislash has allowed it to fit on more teams lately as well. Still good, but not as effective as before. Same story for Conk and Tapu Bulu, both giant metagame presences only to decline a bunch this snake. For the former, the metagame got much faster, suffocating it the same way it suffered in past metas. Less fat teams to prey on with Mienshao and Thundurus contributing to a decline in them means conk has less reason to be used. It's still a massive threat that can put in work sometimes, but the tier has developed a long way from the cries to ban it 2 months ago. Bulu has declined as well since many threats that hinder it like amoonguss, mence, and moltres have become common with developments like the rise of Mienshao. It was quite hard to justify over other Grasses because of Mienshao bopping it with poison jab and the mons it partnered best with like conk and diancie have also declined. With shao gone we can expect more bulu, especially since it handles thundurus better than amoong and tang. Once again all these mons are still great, just less effective than before as shown by these trends.

Here Comes the Sun

Anyone who has been keeping up with metagame trends knows that sun has become quite a dominant force in the metagame as of late, finally finding an identity for itself after tier changes way back in April. Venusaur is scarily hard to stop at +2 while Darmanitan is a complete nuke with its Flare Blitzes. Other threats like Hatterene, Entei, and Chandelure have found a place on sun while mons like Swampert, chansey, and celesteela work as great support options to patch defensive holes. Being brought to snake and champs multiple times has solidified sun as a force to be reckoned with.
New innovations
Like last time I'll also bring up some cool new innovations brought in these last 4 weeks of snake. There was a really cool coil zydog set showcased here, where it sets up on tang and the player has to FF because there was nothing they could do. It got brought twice actually last week, though the other time it wasn't able to do its thing. Starmie got brought a few times in weeks 3 and 4 to take advantage of the voltturn teams going around that had defensive holes it could exploit. Very nice to see starmie getting some usage again, Life orb basically has no switch-ins barring chansey. Infamous former UUBL horsebug scolipede appeared a few times, a very underrated mon imo that can slam unprepared teams if it gets off a boost, which it can do as it forces out many threats like zarude. Sand has popped up a few times with mixed results, always a fish but it has certainly proved its viability in this tournament.

 

[Celebiii]

Hey everyone, bit of a shorter and less organized post from me today, but just wanted to share a few quick discussion points on the current meta from my experience.

1. Yes I am Using Celebi in UnderUsed Once Again (but it's good this time!?!?!?)

So why do I think my fav Poke is usable/viable in UU once again? I had been browsing through the BW forums, and found that Celebi pairs excellently with Excadrill in that meta. After some testing, I found out that it does the same here. The team I've been using:

https://pokepast.es/b33c19df1bf415ec
Celebi takes on the Fighting, Water, and Ground attacks that Excadrill is weak to, and Exca takes the Bug, Ghost, Dark, and Poison attacks Celebi is weak to. It's really necessary to have a solid plan for Fire-types and Steel-types alongside these two, as well as secondary check to Fighting-, Ghost-, and Dark-type attacks, but UU has great options for these. These two also make a great pair because of their flexible utility - either one can carry rocks, and Exca can spin. Exca's spin also helps deal with Celebi's vulnerability to entry hazards. As for teammates, Rotom-Wash and Moltres pair very well with them, and I plan to look at Nihilego for a partner as well.

2. Gyarados the Fighting Check?

Gyarados @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Waterfall
- Roar
RestTalk Gyarados is a set of generations past, but after some experimentation, I found it to work really well here too. It makes an excellent check to physical Fire- and Fighting-types with recovery and Roar to ensure it isn't passive while sleeping. It has enough bulk to take some nasty special attacks in a pinch too. The team I've been using it on, with great success:

https://pokepast.es/d6548fdd45ee743a
RestTalk Gyara pairs wonderfully with Chansey and Mamoswine here to deal with their extreme vulnerability to Fighting-types, being able to switch into them and force them out easily.

3. *Lawnmower Noises*

UU already has 2 very good Grass-types to choose from, so why Rotom-Mow? It has put in some work for me in testing already, but the main draw of Mowtom is that it is a Grass-type able to exert pressure via Nasty Plot boosting while maintaining momentum with Volt Switch. This lets it really threaten switch-ins with a +2 Leaf Storm after it forces a bulky Water-type out or even just hit something hard while safely pivoting into something that can handle the attacker better. I've only tried it on one less-conventional team so far, but it's definitely something I will be experimenting with more. Choice Scarf sets are also probably worth looking at.

 

[Cookees]

Been away for a while due to work commitments, but come on - you can't just ban every single UU threat that doesn't get outright walled by something. This is why UU has become so dominated by fat teams.

 

[Estarossa]

Mienshao ban was amazing and a step forward for this tier, although i'm still not sure I really like it a huge amount in its current state. Its xmas so thought I'd share something cool I've been messing with lately on ladder and in friendlies for anyone interested in trying it out.

So sun has been growing in popularity lately and showcasing how deadly Venusaur can be on it, (we even have a sample team too). Most of these teams tend to use Darm or Entei in the Fire-type wallbreaker slot, but I've been messing with a slightly diferent approach with an SD Incineroar on this slot, giving you a lot of defensive utility over these options and a potentially nasty sweeper that loves Mienshao going bye bye. Has some nice benefits in terms of stuff like Aegislash matchup, letting you go Skarm more freely than Steela too.


https://pokepast.es/44cb777e2f85358f



Incineroar @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Flare Blitz
- Knock Off
- Flame Charge

Prefer Shuca Berry to Boots on this team with the double hazard control, has some great uses in terms of ddouble setting up on stuf like Excadrill or protection from Scarf Krookodile / ability to break through Pert etc. Flame Charge is really cool for the double set up and putting you in a position to outspeed anything except scarfers / 361ers, and I don't really find you miss the coverage for Primarina anyway because Sun just completley lets you nuke SpD versions or weakened pdef ones with spikes support. Goes lovely with the Healing Wish Hatt here and lets you use it more freely early game, although you can ofc use that for the Vensaur instead too.

Just a fun team really but thought I'd share it :) Merry christmas