Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - Fireball

[Finchinator]

Hey everyone, the OU tiering council has decided to retest Cinderace.

Cinderace was initially quickbanned from SS OU after proving to be consistently problematic in the metagame. After a month and change of post-Cinderace and Magearna adjustments, including a lots of recent metagame shifts, the OU tiering council believes now is the best time to give Cinderace a retest. Please note that a retest does not make it an official addition to the OU tier, but rather it allows for Cinderace to have the opportunity to be voted down from Ubers to OU. In order to have an accurate vote, we will be retesting Cinderace on the OU ladder over the next two weeks, much like any other suspect test.

Cinderace had a large impact on the metagame ever since Libero got released just before DLC 1: Isle of Armor. After a survey indicated that a vast majority of the playerbase viewed Cinderace as problematic, the OU council continued to monitor it throughout the Magearna suspect test. Ultimately, we concluded that banning Cinderace for the time being made sense given the rapidly changing state of the metagame so long as we met the condition of retesting Cinderace in the future. This retest will give players who achieve voting requisites a chance to fully examine Cinderace's place in the metagame; they will be able to determine if Cinderace is banworthy or not with this information.

Cinderace is a potent physical attacker with access to Libero and a variety of strong coverage moves. It is capable of dealing large amounts of damage with its signature move, Pyro Ball, but it is equally threatening with Gunk Shot. Both of these moves are able to push would-be checks to their limits, potentially even breaking through with proper conditions. Pyro Ball and Gunk Shot are not all Cinderace has at its disposal, though. Zen Headbutt allows Cinderace to threaten Toxapex and Kommo-o and others, while U-turn allows for pivoting and wearing down normal counterplay. Alternatively, Sucker Punch allows for boosted priority, potentially taking out Dragapult and helping Cinderace sweep if it elects to use a Bulk Up variant instead of a pivot variant. With impressive speed and attack, Cinderace is able to make use of these moves in conjunction with Libero to be one of the most threatening offensive presences we have seen all generation.

While Cinderace is relatively frail, it does have a lot of things going for it that make it more accessible in-battle. Libero can help change typings to prompt timely resistances, making it so that Cinderace is not stuck with the mono-Fire typing defensively. Heavy Duty Boots, a staple item on Cinderace, permits repeated pivoting despite a weakness to Stealth Rock and vulnerability to other forms of entry hazards. You also find Cinderace partnered with lots of Pokemon that have access to U-turn, Volt Switch, and Teleport, permitting safe entry against otherwise threatening Pokemon. While it may be true that Cinderace is appreciative of momentum oriented support, it would be a stretch to say it is outright reliant on these types of teammates as it is a massive threat to opposing teams regardless of what team it finds itself on.

With this said, there are some checks and counters to Cinderace. With mono-Fire typing, Cinderace finds itself constantly threatened by Water types such as Toxapex, Slowbro, Gastrodon, and the surging Urshifu-Rapid-Strike. The former two in particular can check it defensively, but must be fearful of Zen Headbutt and U-turn respectively. In addition, Ground types like Rhyperior and Hippowdon are able to handle Cinderace both offensively and defensively so long as they do not get chipped down too much. Knock Off poses a major threat to Cinderace as losing Heavy Duty Boots can cut away at Cinderace's longevity and status such as paralysis or poison also make it far less effective in the long haul, thus making Cinderace limited in-battle during certain match-ups. Finally, Cinderace relies on moves that have potential drawbacks such as the accuracy of Pyro Ball and Gunk Shot. Given how fragile Cinderace is, a single misfire can lead to it being permanently crippled or even taken out prematurely.

Cinderace is not an unstoppable force in the metagame and giving it a fair retest was deemed a priority by the SS OU council. It is a very strong and fast Pokemon with an unmatched offensive profile that oftentimes allows it to break down defensive cores as games play-out. Libero is a fantastic ability that Cinderace makes use of very well due to its physically offensive movepool as well. However, there are still checks and counters present in the metagame and this retest can be used to gauge if those are sufficient or if Cinderace is still broken in the SS OU metagame. This thread should be used to focus on Cinderace's place in the suspect metagame and nothing else. There should be no discussion of alternative suspects or discussion opposing this retest. Normal suspect rules and procedure, which is outlined below, applies to this retest as well. Finally, the threshold necessary to unban Cinderace is 50%+1 due to it being a retest and for more on this, consult this thread

• ***THIS IS NEW TO SS OU SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE will suffice.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be OUTI. For example, I might signup with the ladder account OUTI FINCH.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular OU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The aspect being tested, Cinderace, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or OU moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until September 27th at 11:59 pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. However, this thread will be strictly moderated, moreso than the average OU forum thread. Our moderators will apply discretion as to what is appropriate. Please read and keep in mind the following before posting:

• No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
• No discussion on other potential suspects;
• No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes retesting Cinderace vs other potential suspects;
• You are required to make respectful posts;
• You are required to read this thread before posting.
• Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
• Please also take a moment to read over some suggestions from the OU Council and the OU Moderation team for posting in this thread; adhering these will help out our time moderating the thread and present your arguments better and more educated.
  • Do not argue because it's your favorite Pokemon. This should be common sense, but please don't do this, because we will delete posts like this.
  • You do not need a boatload of experience to have an informed opinion, but please try to minimize the theorymon aspect and use your experiences watching and playing. Playing some on the ladder before posting is plenty if you're concerned about this.
  • Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderater.
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • This thread is not to voice complaints about the suspect process or decisions of the council. While we are more than open to hearing complaints that may arise, this isn't the place for it. I suggest you message the OU Council, PM our Tier Leaders, TDK and Eo Ut Mortus, or make a post in Senior Staff requests, should you have a badge.

Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message the OU Council. And if you have any questions about the moderation of this thread, feel free to message the OU Moderation team.

Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

 

[Finchinator]

This thread will be closed for 24 hours for everyone to collect their thoughts. In the meantime, let's thank our sponsor for this retest Kingler

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[Finchinator]

Finally, a reminder on behalf of the OU moderation team: the intention of this thread is for discussion of the Cinderace retest and just that. Please do not discuss issues with the suspect process, other potential suspects, or any other things that may be off-topic. There is a proper place to address those concerns and it is outlined in the OP. If you have any further questions, shoot me a PM anytime so we can avoid this discussion getting derailed consistently. Thanks and I hope everyone enjoys!

 

[Finchinator]

This is open now! Happy posting

 

[ausma]

Hey all! I’m super busy with school, but I figured to give my thoughts on Cinderace from the time I’ve used it, now that we have a formal suspect on our hands.



Cinderace is a weird Pokemon. That much has been made abundantly clear from the time Libero has been released into the metagame, turning it from a decent offensive pivot into the best offensive swiss army knife a team could ask for, also acting as the current meta’s best pivot by a country mile. It’s difficult to analyze type-changers such as Cinderace because breaking them down ultimately comes down to the coverage and in what ways that coverage can be checked as a whole, as well as the sets it can perform with.

Unlike Protean Greninja, Cinderace has the merit of a much more effective offensive stat, giving its moves the extra kick that they need to threaten their respective targets. Consequentially, thanks to what is essentially a free Choice Band boost for every move in tandem with Cinderace’s respectably powerful base 116 attack, every last one of its moves stings greatly unless the Cinderace user is missing out on a specific coverage option, all the while it gets to run Adamant without losing out on any important speed tiers. On top of this, not only is it already decently bulky for an offensive Pokemon, but being able to choose what type you want at a given time gives it surprising longevity, and the extremely rare ability to near perfectly choose what matchups you want Cinderace to excel in. Although this comes with a mild case of 4MSS, there is a huge reason this doesn’t matter at all for it, and in fact is the biggest reason its AoA set alone is ban-worthy: U-turn.

U-turn completely transforms the offensive landscape for AoA Cinderace, and lets it get away with the matchups it struggles with on a team, while maintaining momentum on what it can expect to switch in. The issue that comes of U-turn with Cinderace is the fact that it nullifies the purpose in running checks to Cinderace, as you can simply go into a hazard setter or a synergistic breaker and only further facilitate Cinderace’s absurd offensive flexibility. As insult to injury, it’s not like U-turn is a waste of an offensive slot either, as Libero gives it STAB and allows for it to batter its best all around check in Slowbro. With HDB, its weakness to Stealth Rock is negligible outside of Knock Off spam, and thus allows for it to play around its foes much more freely while maintaining momentum for its team. It is without a doubt the best offensive pivot in the current game, and the aforementioned attributes combined with Cinderace's ability to freely weave around potential checks make it considerably worse to play and prep against.

On the other hand, while its AoA set is easily its best set in my eyes, its presence being able to force a myriad of switches and particular prep allows for its Bulk Up set to find many opportunities to claim games, while fully abusing the traits of Libero that make its AoA set a hassle to play around. Gaining attack and defense boosts alongside its phenomenal speed tier make it very easy for Cinderace to clean up or wallbreak to a fearsome extent, only being truly checkable by Sucker Punch-resistant Choice Scarf users, or Substitute Dragapult. This set isn’t as flexible as its AoA set, but it is an extremely potent wincon that should not be underestimated whatsoever.

On their own, these two sets are simply amazing, and are amazingly propped up by Cinderace’s generous offensive coverage that allow for it to pick and choose what it wants to beat with each set. However, as a further testament to its strength, it is neigh impossible to entirely prep for, and in that lies the fundamental issue with Cinderace. You cannot truly be prepared for it due to Libero and its palatable coverage giving it the ability to prep for almost everything, in a somewhat similar vein to Magearna with its many incredible sets, and this is to a suffocating extent. With the speed tiers being lower than they've been in years, and many strong Pokemon being stricken from the game, consistently prepping for and handling Cinderace in the builder is extremely hard to successfully do, and if there is an answer, it will limit teambuilding by merely existing.

If I have time to get reqs, I’ll aim for them; but, I would vote to ban Cinderace.

 

[ironwater]

My thoughts on Cinderace are pretty straightforward: this mon is way to good for the current meta. In the following lines I’ll try to explain you why I think it deserves to stay ban from OU.

The main issue with Cinderace is the lack of good switch in mainly because of its access to libero combined with an impressive movepool. Indeed, with pyro ball he can break throught Tangwroth, Amoonguss, Corviknight, Skarmory, gunk shot allows him to easily take down Clefable and Primarina/Azumarill, electro ball even if it was more seen as a gimmick move at first destroys Toxapex, Slowbro and Pelipper and zen headbutt can deal good damages to Kommo-o or Toxapex. Looking at the remaining physical defensive mons in OU we’re left with Rotom heat, Hippowdon, Mandibuzz and Gastrodon/Seismitoad/Quagsire. All these mons doesn’t eat very well a life orb boosted hjk. Thus, with some hazard pressure Cinderace is still able to 2hko them.

In addition, to its wallbreaking power, Cinderace benefits from an access to a strong priority move namely sucker punch which hits really hard Dragapult with libero and to a stabbed u turn that allows him to keep the momentum while dealing good damages. Last but not least, being able to ignore hazards thanks to the heavy-duty boots makes him really hard to cheap. Thus, he’s pretty much able to come freely on the field, apply his pressure and then pivot into another mon.

I’ve mainly talk about how good Cind is against defensive cores but let’s not forget that it’s also a dangerous revenge killer with its amazing speed tier and can even be played as a setup sweeper with an access to bulk up.

Of course, one may argue that it can’t run all these moves at the same time and you have to make choices which is in my opinion its main weakness. Nevertheless, you still need to check its set, taking the risk to lose some of your mons in the process and if you’re opponent runs the right moves against your team, dealing with his Cinderace may be really hard.

If you made it this far, well thank you for reading my thoughts and I wish you good luck for reaching those reqs.

 

[Niko]

Hey all! I’m super busy with school, but I figured to give my thoughts on Cinderace from the time I’ve used it, now that we have a formal suspect on our hands.



Cinderace is a weird Pokemon. That much has been made abundantly clear from the time Libero has been released into the metagame, turning it from a decent offensive pivot into the best offensive swiss army knife a team could ask for, also acting as the current meta’s best pivot by a country mile. It’s difficult to analyze type-changers such as Cinderace because breaking them down ultimately comes down to the coverage and in what ways that coverage can be checked as a whole, as well as the sets it can perform with.

Unlike Protean Greninja, Cinderace has the merit of a much more effective offensive stat, giving its moves the extra kick that they need to threaten their respective targets. Consequentially, thanks to what is essentially a free Choice Band boost for every move in tandem with Cinderace’s respectably powerful base 116 attack, every last one of its moves stings greatly unless the Cinderace user is missing out on a specific coverage option, all the while it gets to run Adamant without losing out on any important speed tiers. On top of this, not only is it already decently bulky for an offensive Pokemon, but being able to choose what type you want at a given time gives it surprising longevity, and the extremely rare ability to near perfectly choose what matchups you want Cinderace to excel in. Although this comes with a mild case of 4MSS, there is a huge reason this doesn’t matter at all for it, and in fact is the biggest reason its AoA set alone is ban-worthy: U-turn.

U-turn completely transforms the offensive landscape for AoA Cinderace, and lets it get away with the matchups it struggles with on a team, while maintaining momentum on what it can expect to switch in. The issue that comes of U-turn with Cinderace is the fact that it nullifies the purpose in running checks to Cinderace, as you can simply go into a hazard setter or a synergistic breaker and only further facilitate Cinderace’s absurd offensive flexibility. As insult to injury, it’s not like U-turn is a waste of an offensive slot either, as Libero gives it STAB and allows for it to batter its best all around check in Slowbro. Alongside HDB, its weakness to Stealth Rock is negligible outside of Knock Off spam, and thus allows for it to play around its foes much more freely while maintaining momentum for its team. It is without a doubt the best offensive pivot in the current game.

On the other hand, while its AoA set is easily its best set in my eyes, its presence being able to force a myriad of switches and particular prep allows for its Bulk Up set to find many opportunities to claim games, while fully abusing the traits of Libero that make its AoA set a hassle to play around. Gaining attack and defense boosts alongside its phenomenal speed tier make it very easy for Cinderace to clean up or wallbreak to a fearsome extent, only being truly checkable by Sucker Punch-resistant Choice Scarf users, or Substitute Dragapult. This set isn’t as flexible as its AoA set, but it is an extremely potent wincon that should not be underestimated whatsoever.

On their own, these two sets are simply amazing, and are amazingly propped up by Cinderace’s generous offensive coverage that allow for it to pick and choose what it wants to beat with each set. However, as a further testament to its strength, it is neigh impossible to entirely prep for, and in that lies the fundamental issue with Cinderace. You cannot truly be prepared for it, in a very similar vein to Magearna with its many incredible sets, and it is to a game breaking, suffocating extent. With the speed tiers being lower than its been in years, and many strong Pokemon being stricken from the game, consistently prepping for and handling Cinderace in the builder is nearly impossible to actually do, and if there is an answer, it will limit teambuilding by merely existing.

If I have time to get reqs, I’ll aim for them; but, I would vote to ban Cinderace.

I wanted to write something down but you were extremely accurate. The only thing i want to add to the conversation is the idea to unban Cinderace + ban Heavy-Duty Boots. This would make Cinderace a good mon, but not an unbalanced one. And that's not all. HDB involves a lot of other mons in OU, but i dont want to explain every other benefit now because it's Off-Topic.

 

[Zneon]

Hi friends, getting reqs right now so I might as well give my thoughts on Cinderace.

In my eyes, despite the changes this meta has undergone, I feel Cinderace is still too much for OU and its a Pokemon that I feel adds vastly more negatives and barely any positives in my opinion, and I'll go over why I feel this way.

Chapter 1:

So I keep running

So the problem I have with Cinderace is that its a Pokemon that heavily punishes the opposition without being punished that much in return, U-turn is the big evil I'm referring to with this Pokemon. The reason why I feel U-turn is such a large boon for Cinderace is because of how hard it is to pivot into its moves already. All of its best moves have amazing power coming of an incredibly large Attack stat like Cinderace, so most of the time you are not really going to be pivoting into Cinderace almost ever because it can hit so many Pokemon for a 2HKO or an OHKO given the situation. With U-turn added to the mix, Cinderace can simply just hit and run like most other Pokemon, but Cinderace's U-turn hits incredibly hard because it is boosted by STAB so it can chip Pokemon into KO range pretty easily compared to most Pokemon, making it not only a hard Pokemon to play around but a Pokemon that is far too difficult to punish without good precautions. You can bring the hardest defensive check available in Hippowdon but Cinderace doesn't have anything to worry about because it can just U-turn out and use it for momentum. So I feel U-turn on Cinderace is ridiculously broken and I haven't even gotten to how its lack of switchins along with the move allow it to support offensive Pokemon in a way Teleport users cannot but that's all I'm going to go on for now.

Chapter 2:

Who's Switchin?

So let's talk about just that, it's lack of switchins. Its amazing speed, power and movepool make it so nothing is ever safe from switching into Cinderace, but having no switch ins isn't the problem, but like I said, Cinderace can just fire off moves with not too much drawback because of these amazing attributes so its incredibly hard to keep Cinderace in check because of that. I feel the amount of options Cinderace has is a major problem, because depending on the moveset it has, it can just easily bypass its answers, Primarina can deal with it fairly well until it Gunk Shot's or U-turn's, Dragapult is a good offensive check until it pulls Sucker Punch out of its ass and stuff like Tyranitar just gets abused by U-turn or gets bopped by High Jump Kick, get the idea? Cinderace has an option for everything and some of its best answers available, especially Hippowdon, can be screwed over by a Gunk Shot poison, I don't find this to be healthy at all.

Final Chapter: OH NO THE BUILDING COLLAPSED

Super weird title lol but I feel with Cinderace, teambuilding becomes much more narrow because Cinderace is a Pokemon that you truly are not safe against, you can bring the bulkiest Water in existence, Dragapult and a Hippowdon and Cinderace can sometimes be a pain with Gunk Shot poisons, getting out of situations where you think you can punish it with U-turn and bringing in an answer to those Pokemon, or simply just using Pokemon for momentum because its just an incredibly hard Pokemon to pivot around, this is both unhealthy, and horrible when it comes to teambuilding.

_ _

So yeah I feel Cinderace is still broken for these reasons and as a result it deserves to remain banned.

 

[astroshagger]

It honestly seems like this suspect test is a shill.

In the OP it states that OU council members believe this is the best time to resus Cinderace due to metagame shifts and effects of the Mag ban. Why is that? There are no new tangible assets in the game to handle it, are there? Cinderace was QB'ed because tournament players complained about it. So why would we choose to re suspect something a month before a massive DLC drop and subsequent metagame shift, where there actually ARE scores of new pokemon to handle and adapt to Cinderace? How does this make sense?

It seems like there's actually already an unstated agenda from the top "brass" of this site: keep it banned, and utilize another suspect test as a veneer/formality. People honestly think Ace is magically now healthier in the tier? Lol, and then there's no outlet for opposition of the suspect other than some behind the scenes chat with council members? And anything else is against protocol lmao? This is a joke, there's no reason to test Ace right before a DLC. What happens when it stays banned and the DLC drops? Are you guys going to suspect it again?

To keep my post "on topic", there's no way Ace belongs in OU right now. It has the versatility of Protean Gren but with ridiculous power in what is already a reverse power crept generation. It simply hits too hard, moves too fast, AND offers hazard control utility all at once. Cinderace is nearly guaranteed to take something out every match and keeps your momentum to boot. Its simply too powerful, and will force players to run specific pokemon/cores just to not get 5 and 6-0ed.

 

[MrHands]

I wanted to write something down but you were extremely accurate. The only thing i want to add to the conversation is the idea to unban Cinderace + ban Heavy-Duty Boots. This would make Cinderace a good mon, but not an unbalanced one. And that's not all. HDB involves a lot of other mons in OU, but i dont want to explain every other benefit now because it's Off-Topic.

Might as well just ban Libero + Cinderace or even Libero if the goal is to keep bunny usable at all costs. But I don't really see any reason to complex ban part of Cinderace. If we're going to do that we can unban Dracovish but ban Strong Jaw, and unban Magearna but without Fleur Cannon etc. It's just unneeded complexity.

Anyway I'm pretty sure this rabbit is still broken and should stay banned. I have no idea why the OU council decided to vote on Cinderace now when there is zero additional counterplay available (regardless of metagame shifts) while there's DLC coming in a month that will introduce counterplay while we still have stuff like Urshifu in OU that was found to be broken even in Nat Dex formats.

But in any case Cinderace still has an overwhelming collection of speed, power, and omni-STAB that make it extremely difficult to handle. Even its checks and counters get worn down by "STAB" Uturn. Outside the traditional Pyro Ball, HJK, and Sucker Punch it has plenty of other options in Bulk Up, Zen Headbutt, Court Change, Electro Ball, Gunk Shot, and Taunt. It can run HDB to aggressively spam U-turn all game or run Life Orb / Band to smash through even solid checks like Hippowdon (2HKOed by Banded Pyro Ball at ~90%) I can't think of anything that has changed in the meta since the ban. An increase in Tyranitar, Skarmory, and Aegislash? Well guess they're going back to UU this month. Rhyperior is 2HKOed by HJK or 2 Uturns + 1 HJK (and it doesn't even OHKO back with neutral Earthquake). Galar Weezing is 2HKOed by Zen Headbutt and increases in stuff like Jirachi, Amoongus, Tangrowth, Corviknight, Rillaboom, and Magnezone just serve to make Cinderace completely overwhelming in the current meta.

tl;dr Cinderace is broken in the current meta and this test should have been done in a month or two when the meta is better suited for it. But as OU is right now... Ban.

 

[Spyro]

I really do not like this mon. It forces you to play defensively and even when you think you have a good answer to it like Hippowdon it can still chip it enough with U-turn to the point where it threatens a 2HKO with Pyro Ball. Like lets say you have Rillaboom out and they have Cinderace. You obviously don't want to lose Rillaboom so you go into Hippowdon. Cinderace uses U-turn, your Hippo takes 20 something and they go into something that threatens Hippo. Now you're forced to switch out and can't recover your Hippo. I honestly think Volt Turn is pretty busted by itself but Cinderace gets STAB on it so that just makes it way more problematic. Heavy Duty Boots also makes it really hard to punish. Rocky Helmet can punish it somewhat but when you have no Leftovers the longevity of your mons really take a hit. Then there's Bulk Up, it's great speed tier, Sucker Punch, HJK it's just able to run whatever is needed to fit your teams needs. If I get reqs I´ll be voting ban. As for the DLC drop, I don't think it´ll make Cinderace any less busted seeing as it's one of the best mons in national dex. However I am confused as to why this was suspected right now instead of after DLC.

 

[Niko]

Might as well just ban Libero + Cinderace or even Libero if the goal is to keep bunny usable at all costs. But I don't really see any reason to complex ban part of Cinderace. If we're going to do that we can unban Dracovish but ban Strong Jaw, and unban Magearna but without Fleur Cannon etc. It's just unneeded complexity.

Anyway I'm pretty sure this rabbit is still broken and should stay banned. I have no idea why the OU council decided to vote on Cinderace now when there is zero additional counterplay available (regardless of metagame shifts) while there's DLC coming in a month that will introduce counterplay while we still have stuff like Urshifu in OU that was found to be broken even in Nat Dex formats.

But in any case Cinderace still has an overwhelming collection of speed, power, and omni-STAB that make it extremely difficult to handle. Even its checks and counters get worn down by "STAB" Uturn. Outside the traditional Pyro Ball, HJK, and Sucker Punch it has plenty of other options in Bulk Up, Zen Headbutt, Court Change, Electro Ball, Gunk Shot, and Taunt. It can run HDB to aggressively spam U-turn all game or run Life Orb / Band to smash through even solid checks like Hippowdon (2HKOed by Banded Pyro Ball at ~90%) I can't think of anything that has changed in the meta since the ban. An increase in Tyranitar, Skarmory, and Aegislash? Well guess they're going back to UU this month. Rhyperior is 2HKOed by HJK or 2 Uturns + 1 HJK (and it doesn't even OHKO back with neutral Earthquake). Galar Weezing is 2HKOed by Zen Headbutt and increases in stuff like Jirachi, Amoongus, Tangrowth, Corviknight, Rillaboom, and Magnezone just serve to make Cinderace completely overwhelming in the current meta.

tl;dr Cinderace is broken in the current meta and this test should have been done in a month or two when the meta is better suited for it. But as OU is right now... Ban.

The reason to keep him usable is because Cinderace actually contains half the offensive metagame by himself. The real problem with him is the fact that he has infinite switchins. All you need is a way to punish him and to avoid his snowball effects. You can see the devastating power of Boots Cinderace+Boots Zeraora in any WCoP replay.

EDIT: I also think that once dlc 2 is out you will regret not to have your (nerfed by Boots Ban) Cinderace ready to rkill Tapu Lele, Tapu Fini (which imo will become a thing in the CM version thanks to the access to Draining Kiss), Tapu Bulu, Latwins exc...

 

[RoyalDispenser]

The reason to keep him usable is because Cinderace actually contains half the offensive metagame by himself. The real problem with him is the fact that he has infinite switchins. All you need is a way to punish him and to avoid his snowball effects. You can see the devastating power of Boots Cinderace+Boots Zeraora in any WCoP replay.

This is the ace suspect test, not the boots one. Boots isn’t broken on its own, it requires an abuser of them. You wouldn’t ban choice scarf to keep genesect and dracovish in the tier.

Ace is broken due to how much raw power it has with it’s diverse movepool. Every would be counter gets tapped by some kind of coverage, chipped by hazards as it uturns out, or setup on with the bulk up set. Not to mention revenge killers change depending on what move it used last (to throw one out there, priority accelrock isn’t going to RK if ace recently killed something with HJK). Getting STAB on every move adds more power than one would guess since that’s 4 moves you need to worry about. Having coverage is nothing new, but getting a 1.5x boost on coverage gives a lot of unnecessary power and can make ace whatever type of physical attacker you need. Access to sucker punch eliminates a lot of offensive counterplay as well.

The only healthy part of ace is that it forces defensive compositions to be more wary of it and have less freedom to check other things, but then that just creates more teambuilding restriction when you count the other offensive threats we already have in the tier. We didn’t need to add Ace to fix how broken certain stall mons are, and I don’t know who paid who to waste time on this test as I think general consensus is that it should stay banned. Majority of the community were already against this test but the council did what they wanted anyway.

 

[Dreadfury]

While I strongly disagree with the timing of this suspect test, the fact of the matter is that it's happening and I need to try my best to be as objective as humanly possible with regards to this Cinderace suspect test in this existing metagame. I've had over 24 hours to collect my thoughts about this, and I'll be pretty clear about it.

Cinderace has a unique and coveted Speed tier. There is a massive void between Gengar and Alakazam at the moment and Cinderace fits into it like a glove. It outpaces a metric ton of stuff and as a result threatens a ton of stuff just by virtue of how hard it naturally hits. I like having means of speed control in this tier so I don't have to slap a Dragapult or Zeraora on every team, but Cinderace offers a tad too much at the cost of a tiny amount of speed relative to neutral Dragapult and a lot compared to positive-speed Zeraora.

But let's address the elephant in the room here: Cinderace's movepool is insanely good, and that's not going to change no matter what the metagame looks like. One may argue that this is a bad case of 4MSS, but this is far from the case considering what precisely Cinderace learns:

Pyro Ball is obligatory, and while it has minor accuracy issues it is generally an obscenely strong, spammable STAB.

U-Turn gives it Bug STAB to anti-lead the likes of Necrozma and Mew and is generally just a safe move that can garner a ton of momentum. Cinderace forces a ton of switches as is and this move capitalizes on those switches with both free momentum and competent damage because Cinderace actually hits decently hard with it.

Sucker Punch grants it insanely strong STAB priority that can revenge kill much of the tier, giving it a means of dealing with Dragapult.

High Jump Kick is its strongest attack bar none, though a risky move, and is so obscenely powerful that, with a Life Orb, it has a 25% chance of OHKOing Rhyperior after Stealth Rock damage. Rhyperior is one of Cinderace's best defensive checks and has incredible physical bulk even when uninvested; this sort of a calc is astronomical. It also comfortably OHKOs Urshifu-S, I suppose.

Iron Head offers consistent coverage against Fairies, although this thing 2HKOs them naturally anyway.

Gunk Shot offers extremely strong coverage against Fairies, and deals with Primarina better than anything else it learns.

Zen Headbutt 2HKOs Pex, which is probably its best defensive check. Pex can potentially beat it by just fishing for Scald burns or something, but Cinderace can potentially beat a Pex trying to potentially beat it by getting a Zen Headbutt flinch. Suddenly your Pex's flesh is spongy and bruised and it can't check Cinderace anymore.

Bulk Up trades one of Cinderace's coverage options for the ability to just set up on stuff instead; at +1 Cinderace doesn't really need that fourth coverage option because it 2HKOs everything barring Slowbro anyway. A free switch is a setup opportunity and a setup opportunity is lethal.

And then it has more gimmicky options that sacrifice power for utility, like Taunt or Court Change. It also has some Electro Ball cheese, and I can promise you guys that it is not some garbage move option. It's just a massive gimmick.

This movepool, with STAB across the board and in tandem with Cinderace's great Attack and incredible Speed, makes it unbearable to see on Team Preview. There hasn't been a single point on my time messing around on the ladder thus far where I've seen Cinderace on my opponent's team and thought to myself "Self, this is fine. You have a reliable, consistent means of actually not losing to this." Every single game where I've had to deal with a lategame Cinderace has had me feeling not confident in a win but terrified that Cinderace would be packing the exact four moves it would need to flip the script on my sorry ass and reverse sweep me instead. And every single game I've had a lategame Cinderace has been a situation where I've either been upset that I could've flipped the script on my opponent with one different move or, more often than not, a situation where I was able to clutch it out anyway because I had HJK/Sucker Punch/Zen Headbutt.

Here are a few replays of my own Cinderace HO squad in action to showcase how irritating this thing can be if it has the right moves:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1187879913

"Oh. He had the one move that kills Pult from full and the rest of my team gets OHKOed by Pyro Ball or revenge killed by Sucker Punch. Guess I lose."

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1187874895-s2i6alfvhai1vpwbsdw334j92v86v5kpw

"Oh. He had HJK and just deleted my busted-ass wallbreaker turn 1. At least I have a healthy Zeraora in the back in the lategame so I can eat up an Aqua Jet from Crawdaunt and outspeed the Cinderace... Oh. He has Sucker Punch. Well, fuck. I lose now."

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1187889098

Turn 1 HJK to kill the Urshifu. Necrozma then proceeds to go full Sicko Mode on a team that lost the one thing that could actually force it out with the threat of an OHKO.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ou-1187515705

Cinderace circumvents the Trick Room my opponent used to try flipping the script on my HO team by using Sucker Punch to kill the Marowak I would've gotten utterly nuked by otherwise.

Ultimately, I think Cinderace is far, far too strong for the DLC1 metagame and, when and if I get the reqs to vote in this Suspect Test, will absolutely be voting BAN. However, I think it should be given a proper second chance a couple months into the DLC2 metagame, depending on which prospective defensive checks we end up getting.

 

[Niko]

This is the ace suspect test, not the boots one. Boots isn’t broken on its own, it requires an abuser of them. You wouldn’t ban choice scarf to keep genesect and dracovish in the tier.

Ace is broken due to how much raw power it has with it’s diverse movepool. Every would be counter gets tapped by some kind of coverage, chipped by hazards as it uturns out, or setup on with the bulk up set. Not to mention revenge killers change depending on what move it used last (to throw one out there, priority accelrock isn’t going to RK if ace recently killed something with HJK). Getting STAB on every move adds more power than one would guess since that’s 4 moves you need to worry about. Having coverage is nothing new, but getting a 1.5x boost on coverage gives a lot of unnecessary power and can make ace whatever type of physical attacker you need. Access to sucker punch eliminates a lot of offensive counterplay as well.

The only healthy part of ace is that it forces defensive compositions to be more wary of it and have less freedom to check other things, but then that just creates more teambuilding restriction when you count the other offensive threats we already have in the tier. We didn’t need to add Ace to fix how broken certain stall mons are, and I don’t know who paid who to waste time on this test as I think general consensus is that it should stay banned. Majority of the community were already against this test but the council did what they wanted anyway.

I'm not saying that Cinderace isn't broken, what I'm saying is that HDB are also broken and if we ban them then Cinderace is no more broken. My point is just that this is the wrong suspect. Obviously as long as this is the suspect, my vote is for Cinderace to stay banned.

 

[Finchinator]

I wanted to write something down but you were extremely accurate. The only thing i want to add to the conversation is the idea to unban Cinderace + ban Heavy-Duty Boots. This would make Cinderace a good mon, but not an unbalanced one. And that's not all. HDB involves a lot of other mons in OU, but i dont want to explain every other benefit now because it's Off-Topic.

I'm not saying that Cinderace isn't broken, what I'm saying is that HDB are also broken and if we ban them then Cinderace is no more broken. My point is just that this is the wrong suspect. Obviously as long as this is the suspect, my vote is for Cinderace to stay banned.

Going to use this as a warning to you and everyone else: this is a discussion about Cinderace's retest and nothing else. If you have an issue, message the OU councilmen. As the OP outlines and every other suspect thread maintains, this is not place to speculate other suspects or comment on the process. These posts do not belong in this thread; there is even a Policy Review thread on Heavy-Duty Boots here. If you or anyone else goes off topic from this point onward, your posts will get deleted and if there are further issues, this may lead to infractions.

---

As for the people questioning the timing of the suspect, that also does not belong here and those posts will be deleted or those parts edited out from this point onward, too. I do want to note that this re-test was clearly alluded to when we banned Cinderace initially and (in my opinion -- emphasis on this as I am not speaking on behalf of the entire council here) it had to be done before DLC2 because the people deserved a fair chance to vote on Cinderace in this metagame. Banning it and then holding to retest for an entirely new, post-DLC2 metagame would be defeating the purpose of the ban-into-retest strategy and manipulating the system for a ban without having a public vote. This is not something to respond to in this thread; let's stay on topic from this point on or else we will have to delete/infract more posts. Personally, I believe Urshifu and (to a lesser extent) Toxapex are suspect worthy, but neither were as pressing as this and the council has been clear in communicating that.

If you have any questions on these matters, feel free to PM anytime. Happy posting

 

[GaryGaryGary]

Hello Again!
Time for another episode I-don’t-have-reqs-but-here-is-my-opinion! Yay!

So the fiery bunny Cinderace. Yeah, this thing is broken. This thing has incredible attack power and speed making it an ideal sweeper, which sounds good right? Lol, no. Libero is just Protean with a different name. Was Greninja broken? Depends on who you ask. While Greninja did have good chipping potential, it got walled by plenty of Bulky Mons, including Pex, Ferro, and Chansey/Blissey. The Tapus also clapped Protean Greninja. Would Cinderace suffer the same fate?


No.
This thing has Sucker Punch, U-turn, High Jump Kick, Gunk Shot, Iron Head, Zen Headbutt,etc. Like, wow!

Pyro Ball is Cinderace’s main move and boy does it hit like a truck. Ferro, ‘Moongus, and Drill and The Knight gets boddybagged by it. Super spammable too. High Jump Kick pummels Rock, Steel, and Dark types, into the ground. Oh, Dragapult? Naw, two Sucker Punches and that thing is dead. Slowbro? Hippowdon? Slowbro can’t deal with Stab U-turns in the gut and Hippowdon is chipped by it. Oh, and screw your Water Types too because Ace gets Electro Ball. Primarina? Azu? The Tapus? All of them get destroyed by Gunk Shot.

You can even run him as a support Mon and he’ll do very good at that. Court Change+HDB is the prime example of Uno Reverse Card. All that hazard setting just for them to get swapped, LOL!

Busted Bunny. Please keep this thing banned. There’s nothing that can switch into it without being heavily crippled or KO’d. Just... please... :(

 

[P3DS]

I was sad that this wasn't tested initially, but here we are. If I get Reqs, I will be voting NO BAN.

The for ban arguments:

• STAB Pivot on a quite high speed tier
• Strong coverage to allow you to customize your Ace
• HDB and wish support leave it on the field for a long time
• You have to play very carefully around it
• Good speed and attack. And moderate bulk.
• Gunk Shot makes it immune to toxic
• Hard to punish

The against ban arguments

• 4MMS is very apparent with Ace. Lacking something leaves you open to being walled/threatened by mons that you usually have
• Very linear on its builds. HDB, U-Turn and other stuff
• Weird speed tier leaves it with a lot of faster threats, that are quite popular.
• Does have switch ins and counter play
• Helps break down a lot of walls that litter the format
• Kept in check by common walls and scarfers too.
• Shaky accuracy gives checks better chance at success
• Slower Pivots can abuse its faster speed to bring in better threats on Ace's u-turn.
• Faster threats weaken its pivoting capabilities.

My Opinion

Cinderace feels a lot like ORAS Gren, but far more restricted. Powerful, with a good amount of options, marred by 4mms. I'm wanting to run 6 offensive moves on ace, but only got room for 4. That's also excluding moves like bulk up and court change. Cinderace, with libero, sports very powerful pivoting

However, the 4mms issue is one I see again and again. I want Pyro Ball, Sucker Punch, U-Turn, Zen Headbutt, Gunk Shot/Iron Head, HJK. Cinderace gets walled by a lot of common mons without specific moves. Its awkward speed tier gives it some nice wiggle room, but it ends up getting bopped a lot by faster mons, especially if I lack sucker punch (Looking at you Pult, Zam and Zera). It is also fairly item locked. HDB is by far the only item ace should be running. With its job as a pivot firmly cemented, HDB is required, meaning that it cannot be as strong as it could with LO, CB and other wacky items; Rocks weakness is detrimental to any pivot, so its mainly locked into HDB. A HDB ban might lead to different ace results on a retest (But that is neither here nor there. This is all about Cinderace).

With it remaining banned:

The format would return to its previous state, with Pokemon like Toxapex, urshifu, volc, clef and rillaboom next on the chopping block (I don't think we will see a suspect before DLC2 though). When DLC2 drops, I anticipate ace dropping regardless.

The format would remain with a lot of big walls, and lean towards the stall end of the spectrum.

With it being unbanned:

A lot of plays that could abuse Ace banned now rethink about themselves. Volcarona now has to be scared of a stray Pyro Ball, Big grasses need to take into account Ace, as they lacked decent counter play.

The format would go quite heavily balanced, and stay more on the offense side. Some HO volt turn archetypes may crop up (Utilizing Cinderace and the likes of Zeraora, slowbro, clefable, mandibuzz, etc...). Balance needs to watch out for repeated chip from Cinderace.

How the ladder looks rn:
Pretty much as normal, but with Cinderace dotted here and there. There are still a lot of players playing teams with glaring Cinderace weaknesses. Knock off wars might be something.

TL;DR A very powerful Pokemon, but I believe its drawbacks keep it in check, and, to some, brings a nice change to the format. No Ban

 

[MrHands]

The against ban arguments

I respect that you have the giant nuts to actually argue against a ban but your reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense.

4MMS is very apparent with Ace. Lacking something leaves you open to being walled/threatened by mons that you usually have

It doesn't have 4MSS. It's limited in the same way Dragapult or Zeraora are in that they can't run 7 moves and 1-2HKO every Pokemon in the game. Pyro Ball / HJK / Uturn / Sucker Punch is already good enough to put pressure on almost the entire meta. Bulk Up, Zen Headbutt, and Gunk Shot are additional options that can be run to smash through what little think it can counter Cinderace. Saying it has 4MSS is like saying Deoxys or Arceus have it because they can't run all of their good moves on one moveset.

Very linear on its builds. HDB, U-Turn and other stuff

It gets enough coverage to beat what it needs and it isn't require to run Boots. LO / Band are both great as well as niche picks like Scarf and Protective Pads.

Weird speed tier leaves it with a lot of faster threats, that are quite popular.

There's three things faster in the tier and it KOs two out of three of them with Sucker Punch. It also resists Bullet Punch, Ice Shard, Grassy Glide, and sometimes Sucker Punch.

Does have switch ins and counter play

So did Dracovish (and Urshifu) but that doesn't mean the meta is better with those team building restrictions.

Helps break down a lot of walls that litter the format

So would Mewtwo and Zacian but that isn't a good pro-ban argument. There are plenty of good wall-breakers in OU right now. Crawdaunt, Gengar, Charizard, and Toxtricity shred the common defensive cores.

Kept in check by common walls and scarfers too.

Very few things actually beat all its common moves. Many scarfers are worn down by repeated U-turns + Sucker Punch. It isn't unbeatable, it's just ridiculous in the tier.

Shaky accuracy gives checks better chance at success

HJK is 90, Pyro Ball is 95, Zen Headbutt is 90. U-turn and Sucker are 100. I guess Gunk Shot is 80 but if your plan to beat Cinderace is hoping it misses more often than not you're in a bad position.

Slower Pivots can abuse its faster speed to bring in better threats on Ace's u-turn.

Slower pivots probably switch in on a U-turn and get forced out. I'm trying to think of what pivots actually can handle switching in on its coverage moves. Slowbro + Arcanine?

Faster threats weaken its pivoting capabilities.

As said before there are literally three things in OU faster than it and two of them die to Sucker Punch.

Idk man this dumb bunny is just as busted as it was before the Magearna test.

 

[Finchinator]

The against ban arguments

• 4MMS is very apparent with Ace. Lacking something leaves you open to being walled/threatened by mons that you usually have
• Very linear on its builds. HDB, U-Turn and other stuff
• Weird speed tier leaves it with a lot of faster threats, that are quite popular.
• Does have switch ins and counter play
• Helps break down a lot of walls that litter the format
• Kept in check by common walls and scarfers too.
• Shaky accuracy gives checks better chance at success
• Slower Pivots can abuse its faster speed to bring in better threats on Ace's u-turn.
• Faster threats weaken its pivoting capabilities.

Most of these are not actual points against it, let alone actually accurate points.

4MSS is a horrible argument to apply to Cinderace when the process of pivoting around it to figure out what moves it has oftentimes costs a large amount of health as is and the set Pyro Ball / Gunk Shot / Zen Headbutt / U-turn alone is enough to cover the vast majority of things.

Being "linear on its builds" I am assuming means that it is one-dimensional, which is not even true and contradicts your above point of having too many options to chose from (4MSS) for starters. But to expand on this, it is often running the pivot set and usually confined to the four moves I outline above, but that set is used so much for a reason: it is what breaks the tier. So this is not actually a counter argument so much as justification for using a very strong set. With this said, if you want to, you can easily make Cinderace fulfill other roles with Bulk Up, Sucker Punch, High Jump Kick, Taunt, Court Change, etc. so this is not even true regardless.

"Weird speed tier" makes it slower than Dragapult, Zeraora, and Alakazam as notably quicker Pokemon. Two of them die to Sucker Punch when used, but regardless none of them reliably switch in to Cinderace and none of them OHKO it besides Specs Dragapult, which is far from the most common set. The speed tier is a large part of what makes it so accessible, which is a huge positive.

There are a small handful of one-to-two time switch-ins, but that is not exactly enough. Nothing else in OU is as limited besides perhaps Urshifu, which is at least limited in other ways (although I still view it as problematic). Either way, clearly insufficient.

Helping break walls does not mean it is not broken and implying it should be preserved to do that when it is broken is not much of an argument either.

Still waiting to see more than one common wall that actually walls it, because that simply is not the case. Same goes for the revenge killing point aside from the ones mentioned above, which implies something managed to live multiple hits to pivot out or foddered itself off to get to that point. This just is not painting an accurate picture of the metagame.

The accuracy point is fair and something I agree is a downside, but that alone is not enough to keep it in the tier and the next two points are you phrasing already made points in different words, which are still simply incorrect.

To put it bluntly: I would strongly consider lurking more before proceeding with posting. You make a lot of vague generalizations that do not even apply and fail to discuss specific interactions involving Cinderace and fail to touch on the counterplay you allude to on numerous occasions.

---

As for my personal stance (if it is not obvious from above) I will be voting ban in all likelihood. I find Cinderace's counterplay to be insufficient for something as readily accessible and fast as it is. I will make a post in more detail once I get reqs.

 

[Finchinator]

It seems like there are some questions about why Cinderace was retested. I will be responding to a particular post addressing it and this will be it because derailing the thread is not something I want to do -- the main focus here is still to discuss the suspect and this will be my only response on the matter. I missed this when responding before and I will not outright delete it for being off topic because it was before my warning earlier and the last paragraph tries to stay on topic, but a reminder to stay on topic for the remainder please. Just to address the concerns and hopefully put the misunderstandings to rest:

It honestly seems like this suspect test is a shill.

In the OP it states that OU council members believe this is the best time to resus Cinderace due to metagame shifts and effects of the Mag ban. Why is that? There are no new tangible assets in the game to handle it, are there? Cinderace was QB'ed because tournament players complained about it. So why would we choose to re suspect something a month before a massive DLC drop and subsequent metagame shift, where there actually ARE scores of new pokemon to handle and adapt to Cinderace? How does this make sense?

It seems like there's actually already an unstated agenda from the top "brass" of this site: keep it banned, and utilize another suspect test as a veneer/formality. People honestly think Ace is magically now healthier in the tier? Lol, and then there's no outlet for opposition of the suspect other than some behind the scenes chat with council members? And anything else is against protocol lmao? This is a joke, there's no reason to test Ace right before a DLC. What happens when it stays banned and the DLC drops? Are you guys going to suspect it again?

Cinderace was banned due to the council unanimously voting on it. It was done with the assistance of the survey, but it was clear that both Magearna and Cinderace needed action regardless and we could only suspect one at a time. The council also was pretty much unanimous in agreeing that Magearna was best to look in to first as the Choice Specs set had been problematic for a long time. Therefore, we suspected it and it was banned. We did not have time for another suspect before OLT, which we have no ability to move or hold a suspect during (holding a suspect implies the suspect ladder is there to gauge the brokenness of the suspect, but if the ladder is already being used for cutthroat tournament competition, the overlap becomes a logistical impossibility that has been discussed internally at length).

So then we are at a crossroads: do we apply the "Melmetal" logic to Cinderace and ban it until the metagame settles, when it is obviously preventing that from happening, and then retest it or do we let it stay in the metagame and suspect it promptly after OLT? Regardless of how we approach that, Cinderace gets suspected around now -- promptly after OLT. It is just a matter of if it is a test or a retest and if Cinderace is allowed for the month-and-change interim period. The OU Council cannot shift the tournament schedule or override OLT and that is just an unfortunate fact, so we decided it would be best to remove the Pokemon we unanimously agreed on as broken at the time. It was precedented, it was justified, and when it was banned, people accepted this logic.

Of course, we cannot just swiftly ban a Pokemon and not give it a fair test in the metagame it was banned from by the playerbase. Imagine the precedent this would send: quickbans months in to metagames with no chance for the playerbae getting to vote on the Pokemon. This could be abused in a horrible fashion and I do not believe any council should have this power. Quickbans should only be unchecked when they are in the first days of a tier after something is released. This quickban absolutely had to be followed by a retest before DLC2 to give the playerbase a fair chance to vote on Cinderace in this portion of the metagame. If we waited until so many new Pokemon and strategies formed, we would be setting the aforementioned precedent and shutting out the public from their right to determine the fate of suspect-worthy Pokemon (which the aforementioned survey had as a very popular option: Cinderace being suspected).

There was going to be a test on Cinderace after OLT one way or another because of this; it was an inevitability and that was alluded to when we decided to ban it as well. We made the (correct) decision of at least removing it so the remainder of the metagame could settle and develop, perhaps even giving us an off-chance to find enough counterplay for Cinderace around a far less hectic, Magearna-infested metagame. For example, a lot of people believed Toxapex running PDef sets in a post-Magearna metagame could be enough to help check Cinderace, which is now being put to the test in this suspect. I do not personally see this happening and I will likely be voting ban, but this test had to be happening now regardless and it is shortsighted to argue otherwise.

I am happy to retest Cinderace again after DLC2 if it gets banned here and the post-DLC2 metagame gives us a reason to retest it. What happens in this metagame has absolutely nothing to do with what happens in that metagame. This has no bearing on what happens in a totally different metagame with countless new Pokemon. I also am personally in favor on acting on Urshifu (and Toxapex, to a lesser extent) after this suspect, but that is me speaking on behalf of myself and not the whole council. We will have that discussion closer in time as the metagame continues to grow, but we still have potentially more than 2 months of this metagame, so do not act like you are being shut-out when there is lots more discussion to be had.

Finally, I am unaware of this supposed agenda that the so-called secret brass of Smogon has that you allude to in such confidence, but if anyone happens to be aware of it, pls fill me in thx

 

[CreamyGlasses]

Its very clear why the suspect is happening at the time it is.

Get validation of ban BEFORE the big DLC drop, so when the metagame shifts you can say "we suspected it a month ago, no reason to do it again!" Smogon did it for the fish, they did it for Melmetal, and they're doing it again.

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Its very clear why the suspect is happening at the time it is.

Get validation of ban BEFORE the big DLC drop, so when the metagame shifts you can say "we suspected it a month ago, no reason to do it again!" Smogon did it for the fish, they did it for Melmetal, and they're doing it again.

You are saying that people have asked us to resuspect both Dracovish and Melmetal after their respective tests, and we have told them no, we already suspected them? Can you cite anything at all that shows this is even remotely close to true?

 

[Vert]

after gettin reqs gon say I'm votin no ban

i like cind in a meta full of toxapex blissey toxapex clef toxapex corv toxapex toxapex toxapex rocky helmet mon #2. swear that's all mafuckas be usin these days

each set I've noticed had its own problems vs fat. band they just go helmet pex/hippo every time and scout the move. life orb gets fucked by residual so easier for stall to beat and offense to pick it off w/ priority. if its boots its got power issues. obv all the sets are top tier (a+/s rank shit fasho) but nothin breakin imo. it'll just be the tier defining offensive threat. this mon can also be very unreliable due to all of its moves feelin 70% accurate

ladderin I saw a lot of cool picks like rhyperior, arcanine, rotom-w, slowbro, scarf urshifus, more rain, more physdef hippos etc etc had enough of this stale ass meta. if we drop cind im tellin u there will be more color and flavor in the tier. we already have a mon called urshifu that yall were complaining about in the beginning then stopped talkin about. this will be the same situation tbh

all what I said was prolly really controversial but ion give af bro. vote ban if u wanna keep usin and seein fat shit 24/7. pce out

 

[berunka]

Cinderace deserves to be banned. It has more power and versatility than Greninja ever had to take advantage of Protean. Greninja was banned in the early days of the sixth generation, and this metagame has a lower power level than that one. The athlete's speed tier lets it run an adamant nature, and two of its superiors in speed (pult/zam) get hit by Sucker Punch.

Cinderace's base 116 attack is not something that should get to throw around STAB-boosted 120 BP moves with little drawback. Pyro Ball alone hits half of the tier for super-effective damage and synergizes very nicely for steels like Corv that resist Gunk Shot and Zen Headbutt, which in turn works wonders for Toxapex and the gunk-proof Kommo-o. Zen Headbutt's flinch chance also greatly assists Cinderace in winning matchups that it normally wouldn't- sure, you EV'd your Kommo to take two of them, but it doesn't matter because you have no reliable recovery and you just got flinched. Gunk Shot has a 20% chance to miss, but this only serves to occassionally screw you over in offensive exchanges; against more defensive teams, you eventually win anyway because of its chance to poison foes. This is especially notable against Hippowdon, the only Pokemon that can withstand all of its most common and viable coverage moves.

But let's ignore all of that, and it doesn't matter, because the most cancerous aspect of Cinderace remains, U-turn. Your check gets chipped, you switch out to something that laughs in its face and makes progress while you're at it, and suddenly your check isn't a reliable check anymore. Rocky Helmet is not a good way of punishing U-Turn both because of how easy it is to get a knock on defensive mons and because good helmet users (Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Corviknight, Toxapex, the already-niche Slowbro) are susceptible to its coverage moves anyway, plus on more offensive teams it doesn't even care that much about the chip and meanwhile, you're less capable of handling it after being chipped yourself! Also, not having lefties sucks even in a knock-spam meta. Especially for the hippo. Obviously rocks don't work because it's got boots.

But wait! There's more! Cinderace has bottomless pockets for bottomless tricks! You only scouted for HJK and sucker, things that could easily be in its arsenal, while still having to worry about the standard four moves. Well, you somehow made it through! And you're running rain offense, so you should have a decent matchup!
Wait, my rain-setter just died? To Electro Ball?
Cinderace has the same problem as Magearna: an opponent has to assume that Cinderace is running all n sets that it viably runs, because one misstep leads to a losing game. Because Cinderace fits on a whole spectrum of team types, it isn't easy by any means to divine what the rabbit has this time. In fact, scouting itself leads to massive problems half the time because Cinderace can use Bulk Up and now your hippo won't beat it in any way other than Toxic, your Kommo searching for the Haze it doesn't have, your Pex finding the Haze it has and then using it but it's got Zen Headbutt over Sucker Punch, and then it just bulks itself up again as you recover or switch out.
It can even run utility options. Court Change is still a thing, but that's often overshadowed by its being blessed with Taunt, which completely shuts down Kommo and inhibits other defensive checks too.

When you have to believe that a foe has innumerable distinct sets, the reality becomes that it has innumerable distinct sets.

after gettin reqs gon say I'm votin no ban

i like cind in a meta full of toxapex blissey toxapex clef toxapex corv toxapex toxapex toxapex rocky helmet mon #2. swear that's all mafuckas be usin these days

each set I've noticed had its own problems vs fat. band they just go helmet pex/hippo every time and scout the move. life orb gets fucked by residual so easier for stall to beat and offense to pick it off w/ priority. if its boots its got power issues. obv all the sets are top tier (a+/s rank shit fasho) but nothin breakin imo. it'll just be the tier defining offensive threat. this mon can also be very unreliable due to all of its moves feelin 70% accurate

ladderin I saw a lot of cool picks like rhyperior, arcanine, rotom-w, slowbro, scarf urshifus, more rain, more physdef hippos etc etc had enough of this stale ass meta. if we drop cind im tellin u there will be more color and flavor in the tier. we already have a mon called urshifu that yall were complaining about in the beginning then stopped talkin about. this will be the same situation tbh

all what I said was prolly really controversial but ion give af bro. vote ban if u wanna keep usin and seein fat shit 24/7. pce out

I don't think that unbanning Cinderace is going to make fat less problematic. This is the argument people used for funny fish and as far as I can tell it's really not different here. There isn't a population of invasive Toxapex only kept in check by predatory Cinderace. Even if none of its defensive checks are rock-solid, people are still going to use them to attempt to keep a hold on it, meaning that teambuilding remains restricted, and dealing with the now-mandatory defensive threats adds yet another layer of restriction. Its speed tier is roughly the same as a scarf-wielding Dracovish, which had limitations mainly in not having anywhere near the incomprehensible destructive power of banded sets. This means that offensive options are actually really limited too, with juggernauts like Scolipede, Volcarona, and Kyurem all getting horribly beaten down by it. Zeraora and especially Dragapult don't switch into it, and Zeraora can't reliably kill it at all.

I probably won't be getting reqs but uh. tricks are for kids.