Metagame np: SS DOU Stage 4: It's Bugsnax! | Volcarona Banned

[MajorBowman]

Kinda bug and kinda snack
Try to catch 'em in your trap
Feed somebody and you'll see
We are whatever we eat ​

The fourth suspect test of Generation 8 DOU is upon us, this time with Volcarona at the forefront. After being reintroduced to the metagame with the release of the Isle of Armor DLC, Volcarona very quickly cemented itself as a major threat. Quiver Dance is quite the blessing, providing Volcarona with a way to start running away with games after just one turn thanks to its naturally high Speed and Special Attack. Volcarona can find some pretty easy opportunities to use Quiver Dance in the current metagame, using top-tier Pokemon like Rillaboom, Gothitelle, and Sylveon, among others, as setup fodder. In fact, Volcarona has very few natural counters in SS DOU, with even bulky Water-types like Blastoise fearing a 2HKO from a boosted Bug Buzz.

Volcarona's STABs provide surprisingly good coverage, nailing most of the metagame for at least neutral damage. Access to a strong, spread STAB attack like Heat Wave boosts Volcarona's sweeping potential even further, as often times it can dish out a big chunk of damage to both opposing Pokemon. Bug Buzz is generally the second attacking move on Volcarona, providing it with a strong, single-target attack, but Giga Drain also sees usage as a means of smacking Water- and Rock-types a little bit harder.

Volcarona is undoubtedly held back by a two key factors. Poor Defense means that it needs to avoid taking any physical attacks to the chin at all costs, which strongly suggests the use of a partner that can redirect these attacks. Additionally, a double weakness to Rock and the popularity of Stealth Rock has led to Heavy Duty Boots being the go-to item on Volcarona, precluding it from using a different, possibly more useful item. However, if a redirection partner and a slightly suboptimal item are the only opportunity costs when using Volcarona, that opportunity is quite hard to pass up.

Important: The laddering period will last for a total of nine days.

Laddering Period
Start: Friday, August 21st at 8:00 PM EDT (GMT-4)
End: Sunday, August 30th at 8:00 PM EDT (GMT-4)

All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! Doubles OU ladder on a fresh alt with a name of the form "DOU4V [name]." For example, I might register the alt "DOU4V Bowman" for the suspect ladder.

To qualify to vote, you must achieve a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may subtract 1 game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

Volcarona will be legal during this suspect.

 

[Shadowmonstr7]

corona sucks and so does volc

 

[JRL]

It was clear that after dark urshi's ban, the looks would go to volcarona. Currently this pokemon, in my opinion, should be ban for these reasons:

1 QUIVER DANCER
2 Offensive coverage with your stabs + psyquic or giga drain ( vs terrakion/ water urshi )
3 Your brothers support rillaboom ( fake out + ko water and rock type ) blastoise ( fake out + follow me) or gothi (fake out + trap)
4 Heavy - duty boots, this item can do that volcarona can enter the end game without prejudice to hazards

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

Just use Rock Slide lol

 

[JRL]

If we play a game and you manage to do it, I'll be your # 1 fan XD

 

[GenOne]

Just use Rock Slide lol

Oh I never thought of that, ty for the suggestion.

(All the words in the OP)

I've been playing DOU since XY, and Volcarona never seemed problematic in either XY or SM. It did all the same things, even had a nuke option in SM thanks to Buginium Z, yet was usually just a mid-tier pick that was effective in the right scenario but only worked on really specific teambuilds. Fast forward to SS and Volcarona now feels like a pretty splashable pick that can snowball games once it sets up. What changed? Here are a few factors:

• Heavy Duty Boots: Stealth Rock was especially prominent in SM, but also common in XY, so running Volcarona was a huge liability if you didn't have strategies for dealing with Stealth Rock. In SM, running Volcarona usually meant you had a dedicated Defog user somewhere else on your team, which limited your options in teambuilding. It's also worth noting that in past metas, many of the best Pokemon were weak to Rock, so stacking multiple Rock-weak Pokemon was a big deal. In SS, Heavy Duty Boots allows you to completely disregard Stealth Rock, which makes Volcarona much much easier to fit onto a team -- insomuch that I've put both Volcarona and Talonflame on the same team unironically. Try doing that in SM or XY lol.
  
  
• Lower average BST: Until Crown Tundra DLC drops, SS DOU is still pretty much a New Game+ DUU meta. Volcarona has a reasonably minmaxed 550 BST stat spread, which is par for the course compared to top picks in XY and SM, but a bit above average in SS right now. So by function of a simple reverse power creep, Volcarona feels more threatening right now.
  
  
• New bodyguards: The amount of viable Pokemon that can support Volcarona has risen with each generation and is at an all time high with SS. Between Follow Me / Fake Out Blastoise, Rillaboom, Zeraora, Incineroar and others, it really isn't hard to ensure you have support for Volcarona on any given team. In previous generations, your options were more limited.
  
  
• Rillaboom: Rillaboom gets a special shoutout for being able to hard check the Water- and Rock-types Volcarona hates while also providing Fake Out utility and passive recovery with Grassy Terrain. This is a lot of value in one slot for a Volcarona build.

With all of these factors combined, it isn't hard to get Volcarona set up to +1/+1/+1 in any given game, and once Volcarona is set up, its momentum can snowball into quick KOs if you lack the speed control or physical attack option needed to take it down.

I don't have strong opinions on whether Volcarona deserves a ban or not, but if you asked me today I'd be in favour of banning it until Crown Tundra. Most teams that aren't dedicated hyper offense solutions want to be running Volcarona, which says something.

 

[sawamura]

We have honestly seen how a single volcarona setup can be easily broken with the help of Support Follow Me + Fake out and more. Trap Goth allows you to fully sweep more if Rillabom is present with a passive healing field. Blastoise has had to focus on wall Special to resist Bug Buzz, however it can deteriorate. In short, Volcarona is a mon that is seen in 9/10 Teams at Competitive level since its Checks are Limited and not viable. This Causes Modifications to be able to choose to stop this Wallbreaker that generates a lot of pressure which is centralizing the metagame in an abrupt way. Heavy Dooty Boost Avoid Being Easy on the Hazzards another reason why you can enter and exit as many times as you want

 

[Actuarily]

I’ll be voting to not ban. Volcarona is a top tier threat to be sure, but not overpowering. It requires a lot of positioning and support to properly set up, and so it results you building a whole team around it. Because of this, I’ve found I prefer running a set with Fiery Dance as opposed to heat wave, which lets it act more as a traditional fire type that isn’t reliant on set up, and I don’t base my team around a successful Volc sweep.

Volc is weak to so many team archetypes and common moves that if you don’t have any of the following, you’re not teambuilding properly: Sand, Rain, Haze, Roar/whirlwind/Dragon Tail, Rock Slide, Wide Guard, Surging Strikes, Phantom Force, opposing fire types, strong/speedy physical attackers, Pokémon that resist it’s stab - such as dragon, special walls like Blissey, and even things like psychic terrain and queenly majesty prevent it’s support from working.

Ultimately it’s a mon that every team should account for in teambuilding, but isn’t meta-breaking.

 

[Red Pill PUA]

It’s too strong right now and the meta is boring because of it, but it’s only because of the tier 1 support mons that surround it at all times. The meta right now is who can sweep with their volcarona. Thats where we are at. Reminds me much of beat up meta that should also be retested since there is so much redirecting and fake now also no dynamax.

If it gets banned it should be freed with all the other bans when the dlc drops. It’s a medium tier mon that is only strong because of the ss pokémon snap and a over abundance of tier 1 support mons.

I’m only voting ban because this meta is boring not because vol is over powering strong. It’s the support that is strong and making it feel a lot stronger then it is. Good ole incineroar still doing his thing with no suspect in sight two gens strong.

Once this thing is banned the meta will just find a new mon to boost with incineroar, his newbuddy rilla and toise. Banning this mon is not going to change anything tell you deal with the actual problem. The op support mons and you all know it.

 

[Light Sanctity]

I do agree with a lot of what the other users have mentioned here. With good support Pokémon it can be good. Volcarona, can indeed become a Bug hatters worst nightmare. Personally, I’m not sure on how I feel about Volcarona whether to Ban or not. It is indeed a solid Pokémon given the opportunity to Quiver Dance but if you have a good Physical Rock-type (bug spray) attack it’ll go bye bye. I know I haven’t mentioned much but that’s my 2 cents. Will probably change when the time comes :P

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

It’s too strong right now and the meta is boring because of it, but it’s only because of the tier 1 support mons that surround it at all times. The meta right now is who can sweep with their volcarona. Thats where we are at. Reminds me much of beat up meta that should also be retested since there is so much redirecting and fake now also no dynamax.

If it gets banned it should be freed with all the other bans when the dlc drops. It’s a medium tier mon that is only strong because of the ss pokémon snap and a over abundance of tier 1 support mons.

I’m only voting ban because this meta is boring not because vol is over powering strong. It’s the support that is strong and making it feel a lot stronger then it is. Good ole incineroar still doing his thing with no suspect in sight two gens strong.

Once this thing is banned the meta will just find a new mon to boost with incineroar, his newbuddy rilla and toise. Banning this mon is not going to change anything tell you deal with the actual problem. The op support mons and you all know it.

I hate to say it, but I agree Volc's supports are the issue here. Of particular concern is Rillaboom, whose access to automatic Grassy Terrain, Fake Out, and the strongest priority in the game (not to mention U-turn and Knock Off) give Volc and others like it plenty of opportunities to set up and sweep. Again, Volc has its counters (anything faster with STAB Rock Slide), but when those counters almost never switch in for fear of being destroyed by Rillaboom, it really doesn't matter.

Blastoise and Incineroar I'm not as concerned about, although Blastoise packing Follow Me and Incineroar weakening opposing Rock moves mean they have their own ways to support the bug. I think the meta would be healthier if we banned the mons that enable these massive threats instead of banning the threats just for new ones to pop up immediately afterwards.

If Volc is broken on its own, ban it. But these mons are clearly part of the problem and should be looked at as well.

 

[Amaranth]

I've not played the meta other than a few games to get reqs (and laddering at that level can hardly be called playing anyway) but I feel like I can contribute a small bit so here goes:

I got reqs using Volc w/ Mew, Incineror, and Amoonguss as support (s/o xzern). To frame this as a Rillaboom/Blastoise "new toys" issue is missing the scope of things a little, I think; ban the grass monkey and there's plenty of old friends ready to step in and still allow Volc to crush. The fact of the matter is that the current meta has loads of excellent support options and very little actual damage dealing (just compare the best attackers rn with the best attackers in sm), and you'd need to go through a /lot/ of individual bans to change this. So I don't really buy that Volc is just a part of the problem; the conditions that enable it are here to stay until next DLC, pretty much regardless of what we do.

As a second point and somewhat of a side note, as someone who's a bigger fan of stally DOU builds than most, I also believe the conditions for fully defensive counterplay to exist just aren't there. I tried to recreate something akin to my fatass Celesteela/Gastrodon/Cresselia SM team in SS, but with terrains being so much less accessible those builds just crumble to sleep. I suppose I should've tried to make Pincurchin+Gigalith stall or some shit but yeah if you think Blissey and Toxapex are viable answers to Volc I need to introduce you to my boy Amoonguss and you'll realize that those builds are miserable atm.

If a mon is basically mandatory in balance (why would you not run Volc when you have two fake outs per team on average anyway), forces all other things to be hyper offense, and all of their strictly defensive answers are unviable, then yeah I'm gonna say they're too good. In itself it's not too overwhelming but in the bigger metagame picture I feel like it's a tad bit too much. Though I could still be swayed the other way by a good argument.

 

[Pyritie]

I got reqs using Volc w/ Mew, Incineror, and Amoonguss as support (s/o xzern). To frame this as a Rillaboom/Blastoise "new toys" issue is missing the scope of things a little, I think; ban the grass monkey and there's plenty of old friends ready to step in and still allow Volc to crush.

Are there really? No other mon really fills the hypercompressed role of terrain control + fake out + strong priority move in one slot like rillaboom does. I've been following a lot of the new developments in VGC in series 6 (which bans rillaboom among other things) and there really isn't a good replacement. Nothing else completely invalidates mons weak to grass like rilla does.

 

[Amaranth]

Are there really? No other mon really fills the hypercompressed role of terrain control + fake out + strong priority move in one slot like rillaboom does. I've been following a lot of the new developments in VGC in series 6 (which bans rillaboom among other things) and there really isn't a good replacement. Nothing else completely invalidates mons weak to grass like rilla does.

Bruh I literally just told you I got reqs without using rilla. Of course the best grass in the tier invalidates grass weak mons. You don't need to invalidate grass weak mons for Volcarona to be very good.

 

[Pyritie]

Bruh I literally just told you I got reqs without using rilla. Of course the best grass in the tier invalidates grass weak mons. You don't need to invalidate grass weak mons for Volcarona to be very good.

Aren't most of volcarona's checks weak to grass though?

 

[GenOne]

Aren't most of volcarona's checks weak to grass though?

Some, but not all. Dragon-types like Dragapult and (to a lesser extent Kommo-o) do a nice job against Volcarona just by resisting Volcarona’s STABs and hitting back harder. Sun attackers like Charizard and (to a lesser extent) Ninetales similarly resist Volcaronas STABs and win through brute force. All of these are examples that easily tank grassy glides.

It’s mainly water-types and sand setters that are held back a bit by Rillaboom’s presence.
Volcarona would still be able to snowball games if rillaboom was gone, but that’s a moot point anyways because I don’t think there’s any evidence whatsoever that rillaboom warrants a suspect.

 

[talkingtree]

Volcarona is now banned from SS DOU: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-dou-volcarona-voting.3669674/post-8584785

Here's to the new meta for SSD, hopefully we'll see plenty of metagame development and creativity!

 

[Red Pill PUA]

Whats Next?

 

[Grandmas Cookin]

Whats Next?

well, seeing as the two strongest pokemon in the tier just got banned, its probably a good time to y'know.. wait a bit to let the meta settle

 

[Red Pill PUA]

well, seeing as the two strongest pokemon in the tier just got banned, its probably a good time to y'know.. wait a bit to let the meta settle

You”re right! Just wantz to get a judge on the community of what everybody feels is the next op mon?

I feel it’s all good right now. Great job everybody everything is balanced like all things should be.

We have done such a good job in gen 8 together. Let’s keep it up gents.

 

[1david12]

Was told by talkingtree to send my post here, no idea why... So here goes the text...

I call to stand the abused and uber-rated move Trick Room... This move is suspect for nerfing or complete banning for doubles OU and below for a multitude of reasons, which I will list below:

1. 5 turns is too much in OU and below for Trick Room to be viable (well it will be in effect for 4 double-turns but it is still too much for doubles games). It is unfair for such an important Stat, Speed Stat, be used against you completely without much room for countering it for 5 whole turns in a doubles game. Tailwind just makes pokemon Outspeed you and Psychic Terrain is probably the only thing that can support Tailwind efficiently for it to be not easily countered. But for Trick Room, once it is launched just get an AOE spammer (Torkoal /w Drought + Eruption or slow Expanding Force spammers or even Blizzard + Hail spammers although a bit less common but I've seen it a few times)
2. A single move should not be the sole decider of a game and just knowing you have to always expect it in every single game and compromise your strategy just to expect that one move, that makes absolutely no sense
3. Some people may opt to ask "but what about prankster-Tailwind?" Listen, this is not even an issue since you can still hold your own most times vs Prankster-Tailwind since the most common user- Whimsicott is so frail and will just be in the team to get that singular Tailwind off then go down already putting you on the backfoot in terms of numbers. And Rainy Day teams don't have as much AOE (doubles) potential as do Sunny Day teams do, hint hint Choice Specs/Life Orb Torkoal spamming Eruption.
4. This is almost always a failsafe way to ensure Trick Room is always guaranteed to go off, there are multiple choices to go around,, I'll just name a few that comes off the top of my head:- a. Indeedee /w Psychic Surge, Focus Sash & Follow Me + Hatterene w/ Magic Bounce, Trick Room & Expanding Force, this is a guaranteed Trick Room even if you possess Weezing-Galar /w Neutralizing Gas b. Dusclops /w Trick Room, Eviolite & purely defensive stats + Incineroar /w Intimidate and Fake Out or Indeedee /w Psychic Surge, Focus Sash & Follow Me c. Any Pokemon with Follow Me/Rage Powder + Any Pokemon with stacked defensive stats and Trick Room (most cases Dusclops is used) d. Rillaboom /w Fake Out & Grassy Glide + any Trick Room user (I say Rillaboom because he has a lower speed stat than Psychic Surge casters (Indeedees) and will have the Grassy Terrain fill the field if open with both Pokemon)
5. This one move is far overused and relied on and is too much of a dependent gamechanger as we see a vast majority of top ladder players all depending on Trick Room strategies to rank up, when there is a HUGEEEEE over-reliance on a strategy that is failsafe for most of the meta then it should fall suspect to be banned and/or get nerfed. Uncounterable strategies should not be allowed especially in doubles OU and below and I've provided a few situations above.
6. There is even the option of breaking up the uncounterable strategies of which there are quite a few. I can suggest making Dusclops+Eviolite+Trick Room, Indeedee(s)+Psychic Surge+Follow Me, Hatterene itself, Torkoal+Eruption+Drought (though you have Ninetales /w Drought staring right at you as well) and Rillaboom all Uber-limited

There may be some other good points I may be missing out, so pardon me for this. I know this post may get a-lot of hate from laddered players (although I am too, albeit low-ladder) but please admins/mods please I beg of you to ignore the sound of the market here and please put up Suspect for Trick Room in Doubles OU and below. Also, all votes with "No" without posting a reason are null and void. If you disagree with my points please vote "No" and post your rebuttal.

 

[HeatEdgeSword]

Was told by talkingtree to send my post here, no idea why... So here goes the text...

I call to stand the abused and uber-rated move Trick Room... This move is suspect for nerfing or complete banning for doubles OU and below for a multitude of reasons, which I will list below:

1. 5 turns is too much in OU and below for Trick Room to be viable (well it will be in effect for 4 double-turns but it is still too much for doubles games). It is unfair for such an important Stat, Speed Stat, be used against you completely without much room for countering it for 5 whole turns in a doubles game. Tailwind just makes pokemon Outspeed you and Psychic Terrain is probably the only thing that can support Tailwind efficiently for it to be not easily countered. But for Trick Room, once it is launched just get an AOE spammer (Torkoal /w Drought + Eruption or slow Expanding Force spammers or even Blizzard + Hail spammers although a bit less common but I've seen it a few times)
2. A single move should not be the sole decider of a game and just knowing you have to always expect it in every single game and compromise your strategy just to expect that one move, that makes absolutely no sense
3. Some people may opt to ask "but what about prankster-Tailwind?" Listen, this is not even an issue since you can still hold your own most times vs Prankster-Tailwind since the most common user- Whimsicott is so frail and will just be in the team to get that singular Tailwind off then go down already putting you on the backfoot in terms of numbers. And Rainy Day teams don't have as much AOE (doubles) potential as do Sunny Day teams do, hint hint Choice Specs/Life Orb Torkoal spamming Eruption.
4. This is almost always a failsafe way to ensure Trick Room is always guaranteed to go off, there are multiple choices to go around,, I'll just name a few that comes off the top of my head:- a. Indeedee /w Psychic Surge, Focus Sash & Follow Me + Hatterene w/ Magic Bounce, Trick Room & Expanding Force, this is a guaranteed Trick Room even if you possess Weezing-Galar /w Neutralizing Gas b. Dusclops /w Trick Room, Eviolite & purely defensive stats + Incineroar /w Intimidate and Fake Out or Indeedee /w Psychic Surge, Focus Sash & Follow Me c. Any Pokemon with Follow Me/Rage Powder + Any Pokemon with stacked defensive stats and Trick Room (most cases Dusclops is used) d. Rillaboom /w Fake Out & Grassy Glide + any Trick Room user (I say Rillaboom because he has a lower speed stat than Psychic Surge casters (Indeedees) and will have the Grassy Terrain fill the field if open with both Pokemon)
5. This one move is far overused and relied on and is too much of a dependent gamechanger as we see a vast majority of top ladder players all depending on Trick Room strategies to rank up, when there is a HUGEEEEE over-reliance on a strategy that is failsafe for most of the meta then it should fall suspect to be banned and/or get nerfed. Uncounterable strategies should not be allowed especially in doubles OU and below and I've provided a few situations above.
6. There is even the option of breaking up the uncounterable strategies of which there are quite a few. I can suggest making Dusclops+Eviolite+Trick Room, Indeedee(s)+Psychic Surge+Follow Me, Hatterene itself, Torkoal+Eruption+Drought (though you have Ninetales /w Drought staring right at you as well) and Rillaboom all Uber-limited

There may be some other good points I may be missing out, so pardon me for this. I know this post may get a-lot of hate from laddered players (although I am too, albeit low-ladder) but please admins/mods please I beg of you to ignore the sound of the market here and please put up Suspect for Trick Room in Doubles OU and below. Also, all votes with "No" without posting a reason are null and void. If you disagree with my points please vote "No" and post your rebuttal.

Or you could use stuff that can check Trick Room. Imprison Mew can prevent them from setting up if it has Trick Room in its moveslot. Taunt and Roar/Whirlwind can do the trick as well unless it has Magic Bounce. Additionally, there are several Pokemon that can be a good check to Trick Room setters such as Rillaboom who packs Fake Out, +1 priority Grassy Glide and Knock Off in case of Dusclops as well as Incineroar being able to stand most attacks Trick Room Attackers have to offer.

Also, I find it strange that you brought up Tailwind because it's not good aganist Trick Room at all as it makes the Pokemon with the lowest speed go first. Since Tailwind doubles speed, you get the idea.

 

[YoBuddy]

As you can probably tell from other responses your argument doesn't have much merit. Trick Room is very effective at beating unprepared teams and newer players and ladder players understand this and play Trick Room to take advantage of those players but Trick Room itself is a balanced mechanic.

Lets take a look at some recent tournament games where Trick Room is beaten to highlight some of Trick Room's weaknesses and how to play against Trick Room.

G1: Seasonals Round 5: Yellow Paint vs Tenzai

Trick Room falls apart very quickly in this game. One of the major weaknesses of Trick Room is that you are at a big disadvantage until you can set Trick Room. A good Trick Room team will have measures to ensure Trick Room goes up but no combination is unbeatable. In this game Tenzai recognises that while Yellow Paint has redirection, his only Fire resist is Torkoal, which boosts Fire type moves via Drought. This allows Tenzai to freely spam his own Sun-boosted Heat Waves and ignore Yellow Paint's reditection. By turn 3 the game is a forgone conclusion as Yellow Paint lacks the power to take out the rest of Tenzai's team.

G2: Seasonals Round 5: Sensei Axew vs Actuarily

In the first game Trick Room was overwhelmed by powerful spread moves to be denied setting Trick Room. In this game Actuarily is able to beat Trick Room defensively rather than offensively. Sensei Axew's team is entirely special based, which gives Chansey and Assault Vest Rillaboom an excellent matchup. Actuarily is able to set Stealth Rock turn 1 and force switches with Chansey, Rillaboom and Incineroar to stall out Sensei Axew's Trick Room turns.

G3: Snake Week 1: Paraplegic vs Kiichikos

In this last game Paraplegic is able to overcome Trick Room with a combination of plays. Turn 1 we see Tyranitar's Safety Goggles activate, allowing Paraplegic deny Trick Room and take an early KO. Paraplegic is then able to use his speed advanatge to rack up damage over the next few turns despite Body Press Gigalith threatening his sand core. Kiichikos is able to set Trick Room on turn 9 but a combination of Protect and Fake Out means that Paraplegic only has to sacrifice his sleeping Togekiss to stall out the 4 turns and win the game afterwards.

To summarise:

• Trick Room is vulnerable before setting Trick Room. Offensive teams should be able to force Trick Room teams to trade a pokemon to play 5v6 with Trick Room up, if not outright deny Trick Room (Games 1 and 3). Defensive teams can set hazards or cripple Trick Room threats via status or stat drops (Game 2).
• Trick Room turns can be stalled with Protect, Fake Out and defensive switches (Games 2 and 3).
• Counterplay to Trick Room can also be good against non-Trick Room teams. Psychic resists/immunities are helpful against fast variants of Psyspam (Alakazam + Indeedee M/F). Fire resists are necessary to deal with fast Sun teams. Fake Out and Protect are staple moves of doubles and are featured on the overwhelming majority of good teams, whether Trick Room is good or not. Having a Trick Room user on your own team is effective against opposing Tailwind teams.

Additional more specific counterplay is also available (eg. Imprison + Trick Room Mew) but is typically only necessary if the rest of your team is poorly constructed.

If you still truly believe that Trick Room is banworthy I would recommend playing with it yourself (there is a Trick Room team in the sample teams thread) to further understand how Trick Room works. As your skill as a player and teambuilder grows you should have less trouble dealing with Trick Room teams.

 

[Red Pill PUA]

Trick room is trash this gen. I’m the trick room god and don’t even run it any more.

Tell dlc when hoopa and stakataka are free. The setters now are too weak or have no offensive presence at all. People can just stall trick room since hoops is not here to break protect or dancie getting defensive boosts and never dying. Those mons are trick room foundation mons. The lost of them hurt the whole play style.

Stakataka also has wide guard and ally switch to stop all the spread spam.

And people don’t believe this, but 100% zstones and megas are coming back after dlc 2.

The lose of z trick room hurt a lot. It would stop things like a mew imprison.

Even when trick room had all that it still wasn’t op, but very good last gen.

Also use incineroar if you are having problems. That broke mon counters the entire play style by itself. Trick room needs buffs right now. It’s a dying play style.

 

[Arcticblast]

Trick room is trash this gen. I’m the trick room god and don’t even run it any more.

Tell dlc when hoopa and stakataka are free. The setters now are too weak or have no offensive presence at all. People can just stall trick room since hoops is not here to break protect or dancie getting defensive boosts and never dying. Those mons are trick room foundation mons. The lost of them hurt the whole play style.

Stakataka also has wide guard and ally switch to stop all the spread spam.

And people don’t believe this, but 100% zstones and megas are coming back after dlc 2.

The lose of z trick room hurt a lot. It would stop things like a mew imprison.

Even when trick room had all that it still wasn’t op, but very good last gen.

Also use incineroar if you are having problems. That broke mon counters the entire play style by itself. Trick room needs buffs right now. It’s a dying play style.

if you’re a TR god then that makes Fangame10 a Titan and idk if that’s the reality I want to live in

I’m also going to make a rebuttal to this post: I think Indeedee-F and Hatterene make for the strongest TR core we’ve ever seen... but the counter play to TR has similarly increased in strength. As we get more and more fat stuff, the ability to just wait out TR gets easier and easier.

I don’t think anything we get in Crown Tundra will change this relative to the rest of the stuff in the DLC. Unless Galarian Slowking is an absolute god, the same issues the old setters had will still be present. The way to beat Trick Room is quite literally to get good; once you’ve got it figured out, everything falls into place.

I would also be shocked if we got Mega Stones and Z-Crystals back.