Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 6 - A Thousand Miles [Zygarde is now Banned]

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ABR

ABR

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is a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis the 7th Smogon Classic Winneris the Smogon Tour Season 28 Championis the Smogon Tour Season 29 Championwon the 13th Official Smogon Tournamentis a Two-Time Past SPL Championis a Two-Time Past WCoP Championis a Former Old Generation Tournament Circuit Champion
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Hey everybody, the OU tiering council has decided to test Zygarde.

Zygarde has been one of the most prominent threats throughout the entirety of the generation. This can be attributed to its bulk, typing, and variety of moveset options, including the infamous thousand arrows. A reliable STAB move with no immunities and scarce resists allows much freedom for Zygarde to customize its moveset. The fact that it only needs one move means the other three can be anything of the myriad possibilities.

This versatility is the main factor potentially pushing Zygarde over the edge of brokenness. It can run Choice Band, Z-Dragon, Z-Ground, Z-Steel, Sub Glare, Sub Toxic, Rest, either of Dragon Dance / Coil, or even both with an Iapapa Berry. Zygarde's potency stems from the fact that these sets have different checks and counters. Tangrowth is probably the best all-purpose answer, but even it can lose to Z-Dragon or Toxic sets. Clefable does well vs Choice Band, but struggles with Z-Ground, Z-Steel, and Glare. Other potential answers are Landorus, Tapu Bulu, Scizor, Tapu Fini, and Gliscor depending on the set. All of this contributes to Zygarde being unpredictable and tough to reliably check. This is particularly threatening in tandem with its great 108/121/95 bulk, which makes revenge killing it a frequently difficult task.

Over the course of the generation, many different sets have risen to prominence and weaved in and out of favor. One way to describe this phenomenon is that Zygarde has a certain main set or two, checks arise to answer these specific sets, and then Zygarde adapts what it uses to beat the common counterplay of a certain metagame. This ability to adapt its set makes Zygarde a potentially overwhelming presence in battle but also in the teambuilder.

All that being said, Zygarde is not quite sweeping every game. While it does have great versatility, some of its sets do have overlapping checks and counters. While it does have solid bulk, its base 100 attack stat is fairly low and this can get in the way of Zygarde's offensive attempts. On paper Zygarde is a behemoth, constantly adapting its set to beat the metagame at a certain point in time to bypass its supposed answers. In practice, one can view the aforementioned argument as exaggerated - that, in reality, checking Zygarde is not so arduous a task.

Nonetheless, neither side of the argument is wholly truthful or factual. Wherever you currently fall on the spectrum, I encourage everyone to go into this suspect with an honest, open mind.


There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, we'll be using the normal OU ladder which will remain open for the duration of the test. A message will pop up at the beginning of ladder games to indicate that the suspect is going on (Tagging Marty to implement, thank you!). Anyone who wishes to participate in this suspect test will use a newly-made alt with a suspect-specific tag to indicate that you are trying to achieve reqs. The requirements for this suspect test are the following:
  • All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! OU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "OUTX (nickname)" For example, I might register the alt OUTX ABR to ladder with.
  • Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokemon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 40 games, and achieve a minimum GXE of 82.
Additionally, users do not need to ladder if they qualify for Tournament Requisites.

The suspect test will last for approximately 2 weeks and will end on Sunday, December 30th.

Use this thread to discuss the suspect and your thoughts on the suspect metagame. If you have any questions, then feel free to contact ABR,
bro fist, Eo Ut Mortus, Finchinator, and/or TDK through a PM. These threads tend to get derailed so please make extra effort to stay on topic. Future suspects need not be discussed in this thread.

Keep in mind that, as usual, it's going to be up to the playerbase to decide the outcome of this test. Good luck and have fun laddering!

/!\Rules for posting in this thread/!\
  • No one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects;
  • No discussion on the suspect process;
  • You are required to make respectful posts;
  • You are required to read this thread before posting.
Failing to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.

/!\ NOTICE /!\ OU will not be tolerating any form of voting manipulation. Any attempt to manipulate votes can result in an infraction, loss of eligibility to vote in the current test, and loss of the Tiering Contributor badge. While we won't necessarily enforce super strict punishment, this won't be tolerated and will be handled accordingly. Voting manipulation can simply be described as attempting to get people to vote a way on the test in inappropriate manners. Bribing with teams to vote a certain way, directly messaging people to vote a certain way, publicly announcing "vote this way" all fall under voting manipulation. If you have any further questions feel free to shoot me a PM.
 
 
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Just a warning for all who plan on posting. When this thread gets unlocked in 24 hours, it's going to he heavily moderated. These suspects threads usually create toxic and volatile discussion due to the sheer amount of ignorant and uninformed posters that tend to flock here to share their "opinion", usually of which consists of very little actual play or watching of high level games. I highly recommend that, before commenting in this thread, you think about what you're about to post and ask yourself if you truly know enough about the current metagame to provide proper input. With that being said:
  • All one liners will be deleted
  • All clearly uninformed or misinformed posts will be deleted from both the pro- and anti-ban perspectives
  • All suspect talk not pertaining to Zygarde will be deleted. This suspect does not extend to Zygarde-10% and please do not discuss its potential future viability in this thread.
  • No shitposts or memes
  • No anti Smogon propaganda posts. If you don't agree with our decisions and it really hurts your tender soul that much, go elsewhere
  • Don't be overly hostile or disrespectful in your responses. Just because CharizardFan26 disagrees with you doesn't mean that WWIII is going to start because of it.
  • Do NOT bring up voting a certain way because you want to purposely change the meta. If something is truly broken or not broken, you should be voting accordingly regardless.
Failure to follow any of these simple rules after this warning will result in an infraction. Numerous infractions can result in forum privileges being revoked and/or a forum ban. If you chose to not read the rules because you are lazy, that's not my problem or the problem of any members of the OU moderation team. With that said, happy discussing!
 
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There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, we'll be using the normal OU ladder which will remain open for the duration of the test. A message will pop up at the beginning of ladder games to indicate that the suspect is going on. Anyone who wishes to participate in this suspect test will use a newly-made alt with a suspect-specific tag to indicate that you are trying to achieve reqs. The requirements for this suspect test are the following:
  • All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! OU ladder on a new alt with the following format: "OUTX (nickname)" For example, I might register the alt OUTX ABR to ladder with.
  • Do NOT impersonate other people in your ladder alt, do NOT use any usernames which are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users, and do NOT use usernames which could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokemon Showdown! Failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect, and potential infractions.
  • To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 40 games, and achieve a minimum GXE of 82.
Happy testing.
 
I've been a big advocate of testing zyg for a long time & its very welcome to finally see this happen
The sheer amount of sets zyg has makes this mon so ridiculous to prep for, ou has been the same for probably a year now, zyg gets too strong, we find a new counter to its main sets, ie fast icebeam mew, bold clef, fat scarf/defensive lando, mega latis, bu bulu, gliscor, curse scizor & then a new set emerges that beats every counter it has and u go back to needing 2/3 mon cores to check it just to make sure you dont lose to any of its 8+ sets. The latest example being tangrowth, who has taken the slot of premier grass in ou just because it deals with most zygarge sets, for a while tangrowth was the only mon u could get away with using as a sole zygarde counter on a team, everything else u needed at least 1 more answer, but now with the emergence of toxic sub/rest sets even that isnt enough alone anymore, thats what zygade seems to be able to do every time we find a new answer, its adaptability shines every time.
u could argue that the mons that can check are in abundance, like the ones i just mentioned, but ive always argued that alot of the time (too often) games will end up playing themselves out & u just find yourself saying 'hope he's not x zygarde set or i lose' bc its literally impossible to have every set covered in 1 team unless u literally run 6 dedicated zyg checks, even then it would prob still find a way to cause trouble. In this sense i think zyg is uncompetitive, even if in this situation it ends up not being the right set, just the fact that zygarde puts u at the mercy of its set is enough for it to be banworthy. ofc every mon will fall into this 1 game or another, but in all my time playing sm, no mon has put me at the mercy of its set as often as zygarde has. On top of all of this zygarde has literally changed what a ground immune/resist is, u cant say you have a ground immunity if u throw rotom or celesteela on a team which is super restricting in its self considering ur already mandated to usually 2 dedicated zygarde checks.

Despite all of this i still cant say ive fully made my mind up on banning zygarde yet, i would of liked to be able to play the tier w/o zygarde to completely form my opinion, even if its only 2 weeks on a sus ladder it at least gives u some insight into what ur doing to the tier by banning it, more than pure theorymonning can anyway. Ik we're always told that u shouldn't think about what happens after, only if the mon is broken currently but i think it only makes sense to at least consider the good/bad future impact banning a mon has & gives u a better base to form ur opinion on rather than just going into a test with a predetermined opinion. In future id be a big advocate of a test ladder with the mon in question banned.

PS. FREE REQS GANG
 
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Lets get this suspect thread off on the right foot shall we

Zygarde is a pretty interesting mon in that its always been running new sets to get around common checks, most people know this. So....what's wrong with that? I dont think that zygarde has adapted to the point that it cannot be handled, people are constantly coming up with new ways to answer to zygarde better. Coil's a bitch? Well try curse mega scizor! Glare's getting annoying? Well mew can bounce it back! Even sets like dd/toxic/rest/tarrows, a set that is starting to gain traction for its ability to pressure stall, will eventually get countered by something stall runs in response, like foul play mega sableye. I just came up with that one on the spot, but if zygarde gets cocky and dd's up to +6 and you can force a rest, then msab just comes in and OHKOs you with foul play, problem solved! At that point, I think that zygarde's ability to constantly shift is just driving evolution of the metagame, and not really being a broken force. The OP outlined that "This versatility is the main factor potentially pushing Zygarde over the edge of brokenness," and while that's true, I believe that the rest of the meta is just as versatile and will continue to handle zygarde just fine, as we currently have been. Old sets fall out of favor, and when new sets arise, new checks show up to answer them, and the process repeats itself in a pretty healthy manner imo.

I think this boils down to the question of "Is it unhealthy that zygarde is forcing the metagame to adapt around it?" and I think that in this case, not really. It's not nearly as centralizing as aegislash, and its not an outright powerhouse like naganadel..it's just kind of annoying to deal with and that's usually all it is to me.
 
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Phew, finally get to make use of these free reqs. I'm glad the council finally made a decision to suspect something in a tier where I actually feel a lot of stuff is banworthy, Zygarde being one of them. The real problem I have with Zygarde is the amount of viable sets it has, which means it can 1v1 literally everyone of it's supposed counters. This makes building extremely restrictive in a tier where it is already nearly impossible to try and cover all of the common threats. Pokemon like Zyg amplify this problem because not only do you need a Zygarde check, but you need to be able to check like 5 different varients of it adequately. The toxic sets which have been increasing in popularity mean that stuff like Tang is no longer the surefire counter it has been in the past, and glare is still able to cheese by other common checks like Clef and Scizor with decent luck.

To me, from a competitive standpoint, we should be trying to create a tier that is less matchup/rng based (omg I clicked glare and got full para 3 times so I insta win) and getting Zyg out of here would be a great step in that direction. Recently I have been playing a bit of the LGPE meta and, while that game definitely has some huge flaws, from what I have seen decently built teams don't have any huge match-up disadvantages and generally the person who plays better and smarter is the one who wins. That is the type of gameplay that we should be trying to promote in sm as well and I feel like in the current state that is not always the case. Pokemon like Zygarde that can legit beat anything it wants to is extremely unhealthy and when you realize multiple other pokemon like that exist (Heatran/Magearna/Mawile) it leads to a increasingly uncompetitive game.

TLDR: Zygarde is unhealthy because it can easily beat/cheese past all of it's counters and has helped to create an overall less competitive meta
 
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As much as I appreciate this suspect test for giving me a reason to hit up the ladder once again I don't think Zygarde should end up getting banned. First and foremost Zygarde is objectively not broken by definition; It has a plethora of common, viable Pokemon that can check or even counter a majority of its admittedly great set arsenal: Landorus-Therian, Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu, Clefable, Gliscor, Mega-Latias, Mega-Scizor, Reuniclus are just some of the numerous defensive answers to Zygarde. However, Zygarde is centralizing due to the sheer amount of top notch options it has and attention it demands. But is this necessarily a bad thing?

Lets take a look at Naganadel. During it's time in OU, Naganadel demanded either one of these very few defensive Pokemon: SpD/AV Ttar, AV Slowking (died with the smallest amount of chip), AV Magearna (specifically optimized spread to survive a +2 Fire Blast and kill in return via Fleur Cannon) or SpD Heatran, which fell flat against the occasional Hidden Power Ground tech, or a reliable way to revenge kill it such as Choice Scarf Greninja or Choice Band Weavile. During this time you could argue that if player x with AV Ttar + five good Pokemon excluding Naganadel was playing player y with Nasty Plot Naganadel + five good Pokemon, player x was relatively favored as Naganadel was more of a burden than an actual insane threat since it did not accomplish much of anything. Unfortunately this is situation is very undesirable for a metagame since player z could bring six good Pokemon (excluding Naganadel) and be relatively favored against player x who is bringing AV Ttar + five good Pokemon resulting in a infamous Rock Paper Scissors metagame. Due to this unhealthy OVERcentralizing effect Naganadel had on the metagame it got banned and we never looked back.

Back at Zygarde I think we are having quite the different effect. Yes Zygarde is at the top of the food chain but Zygarde keeps the metagame together by demanding one or two checks out of the very big pool of largely well performing Pokemon. Zygarde also keeps the metagame together by being able to perform well versus 'random' offensive threats be it by Extreeme Speed revenge killing them or taking a hit and glaring them back / attacking them back. Those are all traits the wild and versatile SM OU metagame is in dire need for. Life with Zygarde at the top really isn't that bad.

I would also like to adress the Thousend Arrows part specifically really quick. Keep in mind that Zygarde, unlike most, if not all great Pokemon in OU, has no useful ability. Now, granted 'Your Earthquake can hit Flying and Levitating targets but has ten less base power' is quite the decent ability in itself, however, I dont see it as insanely stronger than the other abilities OU Pokemon tend to have.

To finish this off I'd like to say that I will be voting NO BAN on the suspect test if I am able to find the time of getting the needed requirements.
 
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I think zygarde should be banned from ou because it has so many different sets it can choose from including dragon dance with three various z crystals in dragonium, groundium or steelium, banded, double dance, sub coil, resttalk dd, subtoxic, etc to allow it to beat whatever it chooses to. It should also be noted even some of these sets have variations they can run with banded being able to effectively run resttalk or toxic or glare thanks to this mons insane movepool. This means zyg can adequately cover its most common checks at a given time so when people shift to using x and y to beat zygarde, itll adapt with z and you'll be forced to use a and b only for it to respond with c. This makes for an unhealthy tier from a competitive perspective in terms of playing and teambuilding, its difficult to know exactly what a zygarde will do until they have revealed their set and in terms of building you need multiple different mons to have a chance at covering as many sets as you can, if you give zygarde an inch itll take a mile and you cannot always prevent this as your counter may beat subtoxic but will get clobbered by dd groundium. Now the obvious problem with this is that zygarde can only run one of these sets right, so if its banded and you have a mega scizor to wall you're generally well off vs the zygarde, yes, but if they are say double dance with dragon tail your scizor is done for and you have just lost the game. Obviously zygarde can only run one set and not all 10, but the issue with zygarde compared to say protean greninja, a mon which can also in theory beat every single one of its socalled counters, is that one is bulky and one isnt. If they have the right response to your protean gren its deadweight but even if they are fortunate enough to have the right response to your zygarde you can still use it to guard against various top tier threats such as heatran or tyranitar. This means that even if your banded zygarde is walled by their mega scizor you may not be able to use it as a threat but instead have the option to use it as a response to the threat thanks to its solid typing and stellar bulk. In short zygarde will prevent you from losing at worst or outright win at best making it an incredibly low risk high reward mon to use on teams and thus is worthy of a ban.
 
I'm very interested to see where this will go. While its versatility is a problem and has certainly has made it a force to be reckoned with, it has never been some completely insurmountable threat. That said, this versatility also means that teams should consider its multiple options, as what works for one set will not work for others. While it is true that many common threats can beat a few of its sets, having to play that guessing game of "which Zygarde are they running?" can be devestating if you guess incorrectly, and even when you do win that mindgame you still have the actual Zygarde to contend with. Still, I think this mon is on the cusp of being broken; though whether it is toeing that line or has crossed it I am not sure.
 
Just going to leave my two cents in.

I believe the main issue with Zygarde is how it has a way to cheese through every single check it has. That makes it really hard to deal with because—realistically—you’re not deliberately putting two Zygarde checks on most teams, some builds can have Tangrowth and Scarf Landorus-T or similar structures, but, more often than not, you won’t find more than one main Zygarde check per team. With that in mind, it basically comes down to what Zygarde set your opponent is running. And some teams simply lose to a specific Zygarde check because there’s only so much you can do, honestly. As an example, here are two tournament games that just went Zygarde’s way simply because it was the ideal set:
Looking at these teams at a glance gives the impression they’re safe against Zygarde. One has Clefable, the other Alomomola, and—mind you, both have a backup check in Landorus-T—but if you think about it, it’s very likely that there is one Zygarde set that can just cheese it’s way through your team and wreak havoc from there, and that’s exactly what happened in these two games. This is especially true considering Zygarde’s setup nature, which means after it took out it’s designated check, it will likely have a boost or two under its belt.

Of course, things aren’t always that black and white, and it’s unlikely that your opponent will bring the exact Zygarde set that beats your Zygarde check, but in all honesty, it’s really frustrating to pick a would-be-counter like Tangrowth only to lose to Toxic Zygarde, or think you’re solid with Clefable and lose to Groundium Z, Glare, and a handful of other sets. That basically mandates two Zygarde checks to properly check it, and that’s just really dumb and frustrating from a building standpoint.

Sure, some other Pokémon like Magearna, Heatran, Greninja, and Mega Mawile also have ways to beat their usual checks depending on the moves they pack. But Magearna does still have a select group of premier checks that don’t care too much about what moves it’s running, whereas Heatran, Greninja, and Mega Mawile are a lot more prone to offensive counterplay than Zygarde. Zygarde is just disgustingly bulky and surprisingly fast after just a single Speed boost so offensive counterplay to it is a lot more limited than that of Heatran, Greninja and Mega Mawile, for instance.

All in all, while I’m still on the fence, I’m leaning more towards ban. We all know I’m really bad at this game, but I’ll try my best to meet the requirements and we’ll see how that goes. Thanks for reading the whole thing :toast:
 
Zygarde is broken by the standard of any player who has yet resisted the warped everything-gets-to-be-crazy-strong mindset that this generation has spread like a plague. I think SM OU as a whole has taken an absolutely terrible approach to tiering where they decided to balance around the much higher average threat level of new OU relative to past OUs, and while I recognize the inherent power creep when Z-Moves, expanded movepools, and higher BSTs are swamping every new release title, it's no excuse to turn the tier into half-Ubers, where most old reliable OUs can barely get a foothold. In this way, Zygarde is just a symptom of the larger issue at hand, but that's not an excuse for it. Absurd bulk, fantastic typing, Thousand Arrows being the best move since Stealth Rock, and sheer movepool depth gives it more options than could ever be considered fair and balanced. You can go to absurd lengths to check it but there's always a moveset that just wins. I understand the counterargument, "it suffers heavily from 4MSS," but that's generally more the case with Pokemon that are required to run 2-3 moves to even function, whereas Zyg only needs Arrows to exist in a niche all its own. Anything with such a wealth of (viable) options should already be under heavy scrutiny. Thousand Arrows is the kicker, though. From GSC through ORAS, if you didn't run a Ground immune you were considered clinically insane. Now it's Tangrowth (Toxic) or Bulu (Iron Tail) or you only get one turn to force it out. And it takes half damage from rocks and comes in for free on most hazard setters so you'll see it again real soon. Not to mention if you guess the wrong set in team preview and your primary wall eats a move it doesn't like, you probably lost already, because nothing tops this thing in terms of longevity for what can technically be called a sweeper. I'm voting BAN for those reasons, and for reasons that are apparently unspeakable.
 
From what I have seen on the ladder and major tournaments replays. I do not think Zygarde is a ban worthy Pokemon, yeah it is pretty good but no to the point that mons are force to run a certain set "counter" Zygarde. being able to beat its counter with a specific set is true for every pokemon.
for example Heatran with the right Z move can eliminate any of its counters, same as the dd toxic beats tang but its wall by clef and Scizor and even Gliscor. Another thing that bugs me is the fact that Heatran and Ash greninja were the main reason why Gastron was force to OU even gliscor had to run spdf which it didnt do Prior to gen 6 just so it can take on Heatran and even then Z inferno OHKOs Gliscor after rock. I think Zygarde should not be OU council focus. ya'll know better than this.

This suspect test is the same as what happen to Slowbro in NU, is crazy how the council wanted to ban bro for its versatility.
So versatility is the definition of Broken nowadays.
 
Misterioussaint said:
This suspect test is the same as what happen to Slowbro in NU, is crazy how the council wanted to ban bro for its versatility.
So versatility is the definition of Broken nowadays.
Click to expand...
Statements like this are really ignorant and misguided. Neither council wanted to suspect (or potentially ban) anything on the basis of the subjects being versatile. They wanted to suspect (or potentially ban) them due to them lacking in sufficient countermeasures that were worth using in the metagame. Versatility can be a characteristic a Pokemon has that can help it get around specific counterplay.

For example, Zygarde in OU can run Toxic or Z-Outrage to get around Tangrowth, Rest to get around Toxic Gliscor, and a number of other moves/items to help it combat other normal checks. In NU, Slowbro was able to use Block to gain free set-up opportunities on normal pivots/checks, especially when paired with Rest to make Toxic a non-issue for it when it normally was seen as a direct stop to it sweeping.

I am not saying Zygarde should be or Slowbro should have been banned because of versatility. However, I am saying that your assertion is off-base and you should reconsider the root of your argument.
 
There's a difference between a mon being versatile and a mon promoting a largely unequal balance between building around and building against. A mon like, say, Tyranitar is versatile in the sense that it can offer different functions for a team, but building against it is not an oppressive issue when contrasted with the wealth of options the OU meta offers. Now, I'm not the most avid player of this tier, though I've been trying it in tours and I've spectate more than a few, but imo Zygarde is largely unbalanced because it:

- Promotes a ridiculous headache in the teambuilding process since neither raw bulk, pure speed, nor status wars are guaranteed methods of keeping it at bay
- Provides the Zygarde user with almost any conceivable option at teambuilding to make it shine, due to various setup, a ground stab with zero immunity and incredible defensive synergy all around with multiple staples of the tier that can very easily give it additional tools to be even more problematic to take down. While building in itself is an art of sorts and there's no guarantee someone will effectively take advantage of the opportunities, Zygarde does a lot more than about any mon in creating an environment for you to take advantage of, which in high level tours tend to create an unsatisfying scenery.

And that building part that does it for me is that it's difficult to talk about Zygarde in terms of checks and counters to it in itself without taking into account that it slides very comfortably in various builds, from a wincon on near semi-stall to a HO screens booster, and methods of breaking down those teams in game are almost entirely at odds, and can make your Zygarde surefire counter inefficient in the long run even if hey, you managed to get the right set for it. Add to that ridiculous bulk that can be used to get either free boosts through a WP or health through Berry crippling all the work you did to chip it and, without considering the quite great CB or z-move sets, you can easily find yourself in the back simply because you either triggered a situation where its advantage is now insane or you just hesitated enough because you couldn't be entirely sure of what you would create that you find yourself in the back either way.

tl/dr, I tend to echo UltraBallz's take on not creating an environment where the smartest player wins, since the mismatch doesn't take that into account enough and happens a lot more in the builder. Zygarde gives way too much to its wielder and not enough opportunities are given in counterplay, and an unwallable move coupled with one of the most flexible defensive spread this side of Ubers gives it a base that is way too efficient without evening starting to add on.
 
Zygarde should stay in the OU tier.

First off, when evaluating any potential suspect, I was under the impression that we were to look to certain “assumptions in tiering policy” found here, which give meaning to certain buzzwords like “broken”, “uncompetitive” and “skill”, etc. The problem with these threads is that “broken” means one thing to one person, while another person’s definition of “broken” is something else entirely. It’d be nice if everyone was on the same page, more or less.

If Zygarde was “broken”, it would be a force in the metagame that renders “more skillful play almost always irrelevant”. That is plainly not the case with Zygarde. Players aren’t being forced to run borderline garbage, like Avalugg or Cress, to check this thing like other broken suspects have mandated (think: AV Ttar for Naga, Pex offense for Phero, etc.) Rather, it’s checks and counters are not niche or otherwise unviable, and if anything, a ladder without Zygarde would awkwardly look just like the current meta minus Zyg. No one is going to suddenly stop running Landorus-T, Tangrowth, Bulu, Clef, Mew, Quag, DD Reun, Mega Scizor, etc. simply because Zyg leaves, because they aren’t being used solely to check Zygarde.

Now what about Zygarde’s ability to take advantage of its checks – doesn’t that make it “unhealthy”? In Zygarde’s case, I don’t think so. Certainly it’s true that in some games, a certain Zygarde set will be poised to win more or less from team preview, unless the Zygarde user is totally incompetent. I’ll concede that Zygarde has more leeway to play with its item, EVs, coverage and team support than other mons given its bulk + Thousand Arrows spammability. Replays posted earlier demonstrate this.

But there are a few things that I genuinely fail to see. How is its ability to exploit its checks so far over the edge compared to other potent OU threats? Many well-built teams also just lose, or are extremely pressured at preview, by Volcarona, certain Magearna & Protean Greninja sets, Charizard Y, DD Reuniclus, Sub+CM Blacephelon, etc. Yes, some of Zyg’s sets can catch a player off guard, but it is intellectually dishonest to say that all of Zygarde’s sets are about equally viable or equally used, or that they don’t have adequate counterplay.

That is one major trait that separates Zygarde, for me, from other suspects like Pheromosa (or even from Volcarona honestly). You can’t risk giving those mons even 1 free turn by mispredicting their set, because defensive checks are very limited and offensive counterplay is restrictive at +1 spe/spa. But Zygarde is easily outrun at +1 (by virtually every common scarfer), and can be defensively checked at +1 atk (intimidate users / TA is not overwhelmingly strong). Double-dance sets – the most threatening imo – require multiple turns of setup, leaving Zyg open to status, usually having to eat 1-2 HP Ice, and generally being put in range of being revenged with priority if all else fails. The fact that it can lure checks with Z-crystals or Toxic them on switch-in is not unique or inherently banworthy - many other mons also do this themselves, or run team support for this exact purpose. I understand "but Zyg is different" - I'm saying it's not that different.

You will not be able to prepare for every mon in USUM OU, and banning Zygarde will not change this. For at least these reasons, I would vote no ban.
 
So I started at the top of the VR and went down the list to see what mons check/counter its main sets. I tried to be conservative and not include for example Ash-Greninja which can revenge kill if running ice beam instead of spikes. For counters since nothing really counters everything, I did mons that could handle most zygarde variants. Since I analyzed the whole meta please don't angrily post at me if there is a mistake or two, I haven't played everything. This is what I came up with for a Checks and Counters list :

S: Lando-t
A+: Ferrothorn, Magerna, Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu
A: Clefable, Greninja, Kartana, Medicham-Mega, Tapu lele
A-: Garchomp, Gliscor, Kyurem-Black, Latias-Mega, Latios-Mega, Reuniclus, Scizor-Mega
B+: Charizard-X, Heracross-Mega, Lopunny-Mega, Serperior, Swampert-Mega
B: Hippowdon, Hydreigon, Kingdra, Mew, Tapu-fini, Weavile
B-: Quagsire, Slowbro, Slowbro-mega
C+: Araquanid, Latias, Latios, Mimikyu
C: Aggron-Mega, Avalugg, Azumarill, Buzzwole, Kyurem, Ninetales-Alola, Ribombee
C-: Cresselia, Dragonite, Garchomp-Mega, Kommo-O

By my estimate that leaves 19 counters with an additional 28 checks. This mon is not some unstoppable monster that people have to run trash to beat, the meta is filled to the brim with mons that can prevent it from setting up and sweeping. Any decent team will have at least one and often more answers to zygarde to prevent it from setting up and sweeping. Zygarde is only cleaning house against severely weakened teams which is par for the course for most boosting mons in the meta. Now of course sweeping is not the only reason a mon can be broken. So to me the fundamental question at stake in this suspect: Is zygarde broken as a support threat?

Zygarde, has four main modes of operation: spreading paralysis with glare, toxicking specific counters, luring counters and firing off powerful coverage attacks with band/z move, or trying to straight sweep with ddance plus options. Its thousand sets are mostly variations on these themes, and some of course combine roles. I've already made the claim that zygarde is at best an average sweeper and stand by that. It makes a good lure with coverage moves because it can still run a pretty good set that beat some of its usual counters. Likewise toxic is pretty good if not quite glare. Zygarde pairs well with other high tier danger mons like Ash-Gren and others by crippling their mutual counters. All this is to say that yes despite its many checks and counters Zygarde is quite good, weakens teams either for itself down the line or its team mates and overall contributes to winning games. I want to acknowledge its significant support qualities, because I do not think it is in fact a ban-worthy support threat like for example Mega-Gengar of bans past.

In my opinion Zygarde is not broken, and should not be banned. It has a lot of viable sets, but none of them are guaranteed success in any given battle not even glare. In battles where the sets do their jobs they usually contribute just to weakening a team and rarely win on their own. If they do win the game it is because their team gave them significant support or absurd hax. This to me is a definition of a healthy mon. Good, reliable, contributes to winning battles, but still needs the user needs to make it work either by good team-building or clever play. Unless you think glare spam is broken (I don't) there's no reason to ban it.
 
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We can go over this
S: Lando-t
A+: Ferrothorn, Magerna, Tangrowth, Tapu Bulu
A: Clefable, Greninja, Kartana, Medicham-Mega, Tapu lele
A-: Garchomp, Gliscor, Kyurem-Black, Latias-Mega, Latios-Mega, Reuniclus, Scizor-Mega
B+: Charizard-X, Heracross-Mega, Lopunny-Mega, Serperior, Swampert-Mega
B: Hippowdon, Hydreigon, Kingdra, Mew, Tapu-fini, Weavile
B-: Quagsire, Slowbro, Slowbro-mega
C+: Araquanid, Latias, Latios, Mimikyu
C: Aggron-Mega, Avalugg, Azumarill, Buzzwole, Kyurem, Ninetales-Alola, Ribombee
C-: Cresselia, Dragonite, Garchomp-Mega, Kommo-O
Click to expand...
Lando-T: can switch in like once or twice, but easily chipped down due to no reliable recovery.
Tangrowth: might be one of the best counters, but may lose to toxic or z dragon (bad set tho).
Tapu Bulu: can switch into arrows, but there's iron tail, and it also loses to coil zygarde 1v1.
Clefable: decent check, but doesnt take banded arrows very well and may get haxed by paralyzes (unaware will beat dd at least but may still get haxed by coil if it gets knocked).
Gliscor: perhaps sd ice fang can 1v1 coil zyg but not very reliable at all (will take a lot from cb arrows and wont beat dd).
Latias-Mega: does not enjoy being paralyzed or eating banded arrows often at all. Vulnerable to toxic and pursuit.
Reuniclus: this takes around 40 from cb, +1 z ground almost kills and you'll probably get haxed by coil.
Scizor-Mega: curse sciz this can check coil zygarde at least, but very vulnerable to getting haxed by coil + doesnt switch into cb too well.
Hippodown: Whirlwind hippodown is a very nice answer to coil zyg, but you better not let last mon zyg win. Will lose to toxic.
Mew: Defensive mew perhaps is one of the best counters due to synchronize beating status zygarde. However it can get beaten easily since it still takes 40ish from banded + a lot from tectonic rage.
Tapu fini: decent answer to coil but no recovery. Does not enjoy banded arrows.
Quagsire: Checks DD. May get haxed by coil and falls to cb.
Slowbro(mega): Slowbro with ice beam started being used in tournaments exactly because its a good zygarde answer. However its always vulnerable to parahax and dd + z move may take it out with some chip damage. Also doesnt enjoy Toxic.
Mimikyu: lol.
Aggron-mega: No recovery and takes alot from arrows idk man.
Avalugg: same as slowbro really.
Buzzwole: Well if you have like bulk up roost ice punch, it probably does counter everything but toxic sets, but is this pokemon really doing anything man.
Kyurem: its rocks weak, cant switch into arrows very well, doesnt enjoy being paralyzed on switch, may die to z move with some chip.
Cresselia: sure, but theres always toxic, and if zyg user is paired with a tyranitar this is going down fast.
Most mons in italic: being able to kill zygarde is cool but they cant switch it in without being heavily punished by glare or massive arrows damage and zygarde can come in very often against many pokémon in the OU tier, so they dont really help the cause

Yeah, you can use one of the mons above and call it a zygarde answer. But they may not stop you from losing to zygarde depending on its set, or on how many paralyzes it can get. This pokémon can defeat the majority of its supposed counters with parahax or a creative set such as subtoxic or z iron tail, and it gets many opportunities to come in against mons such as heatran, toxapex, celesteela, magnezone, etc so its not like its any easy to not let it come in and do its thing. I think it should go now. I will be voting ban unless some divine light convinces me otherwise.
 
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Zygarde is some ways is reminding me of mega metagross. Sure it doesn't have the immediate power of metagross' meteor mash or it's speed, but it does have it's versatility and the ability to spam one move with no punishment. Zygarde can run a plethora of sets to beat it's supposed counters many of which have been named in the post above as could megagross as well. If I remember correctly one of megagrosses argument for it's ban was that it could get attack raises from meteor mash and as such beat its counters, so how is this any different from saying that zygarde can use glare to beat its counters like clef and bulu. If megagross got banned for its versatility(something zygarde has), its typing(zygarde has this too), a move that it can spam with no repurcussion(thousand arrows), and its ability to beat certain counters through sheer luck(glare spam) then I say zygarde is well worthy of a ban
 
I don't want to delve into Zygarde's brokenness (or lack of) quite yet, and I also won't attempt to be the thought police. A voter's internal reasoning is his business. Nonetheless, I still aim to encourage healthy discussion and proper argumentation.

If you want to ban Zygarde for a mere spice-up that's your prerogative, but it still is unwise. The immediate changes may be more fun but this tier is going to be played for a while so, even selfishly, a balanced metagame should be your main objective. I also question the desire for this spice in the first place. While there haven't been tiering changes in a while, we are still experiencing metagame shifts and trends evolving constantly. Pokemon can be good one week and bad the next, with different sets rising to prominence and different counters developing all the time too. It's anecdotal but I know I wouldn't trust my teams from summer to win games now. SM is anything but stale or stagnant.

I'd also like to clear up the role future suspects play in all of this. For starters, I wouldn't expect any more. While I and the rest of the council are, by definition, open to testing broken elements of a metagame, I seriously question that any future mon would rise to such a state due to a Zygarde ban. You may say that we're losing a Heatran check and a way to pressure Pex teams, but that would only be the surface level of change. In reality, those pokemon likely wouldn't be more problematic because not having to check Zygarde opens up room elsewhere to deal with other things. Additionally, nothing else is really close to Zygarde in terms of being suspect worthy. Lele, Gear, Gren... they're all potent but have way more glaring flaws. I won't delve too deeply into this but the point stands that you shouldn't be expecting tests for them.

Lavos said:
Zygarde is broken by the standard of any player who has yet resisted the warped everything-gets-to-be-crazy-strong mindset that this generation has spread like a plague. I think SM OU as a whole has taken an absolutely terrible approach to tiering where they decided to balance around the much higher average threat level of new OU relative to past OUs, and while I recognize the inherent power creep when Z-Moves, expanded movepools, and higher BSTs are swamping every new release title, it's no excuse to turn the tier into half-Ubers, where most old reliable OUs can barely get a foothold.
Click to expand...

Whether it's about Z-moves, Zygarde, or any other thing unique to SM, there seems to be a common theme regarding their roles. This is gen 7. It isn't an oldgen and we shouldn't be comparing it to them. Keldeo being relatively bad in SM despite being great in ORAS has absolutely nothing to do with this metagame's degree of balance. Who cares if some pokemon become bad? Yes, the power level as a whole has risen, but this is an inevitability with new generations. I'll link my stance on Z-Moves here for reference. My point is that a lot of things have to be accepted as part of the generation. They may not be what you're used to but as long as they provide balance in their own way then that's all one can ask for. If anything I'd say SM is more balanced than many preceding oldgens because we have so many great offensive options yet still bulky teams are properly viable. We currently have tons of creative freedom, with no options really standing out as oppressive (except potentially Zygarde), and pretty much any playstyle is a valid path.

We shouldn't be changing this generation's identity - we should be making it the best version of what it can be. Whether banning Zygarde contributes to this universal goal is, inevitably, in the eye of the beholder.
 
Ight I guess we really out here acting like the tier has been in shambles with Zygardes presence thus far. Let me start by saying that I understand why the council would at least give a suspect considering there have been complaints about it for time. I accept that and a suspect is warranted for the unheard users but now that were here, yall needa stop playing.

Say what you want about zygs versatility, but that doesn't make it an overwhelming unmanageable threat by virtue of that. Just because it has a lot of options doesn't mean it just auto wins and some people act like it does. If it truly was a broken mon I guarantee that shit would've hit S rank at least once but it hasn't for good reason. Thats because like most mons in the tier, it needs some conditions met and in gameplay it isnt as consistent as its being made out to be. Base 100 isnt just blowing through teams, maybe mid late game it shines but play accordingly and you can keep it at bay like any other set up sweeper. I'll admit bulky grasses seem at the moment to be somewhat mandatory on a lot of builds, not just for zygarde but for ash gren as well. If thats what the metagame dictates then so be it, there'll always be some level of centralization to something.

All thats apparent is that zygarde as unique as it is does not break the tier by any means. Im not going to regurgitate mentioned zyg answers like tang lando etc since we already know but try shining light on uncommon viable mons like ww hippowdon or Ice beam slowbro that can consistently force out zygarde every time. There are viable unorthodox answers out here and unless ur getting literally parad EVERY single turn by glare zyg will lose and at that point u should take ur issue up with yellow magic, not zygarde. Yo while im here can people be honest about glare odds while were at it? like fuck i get we've all been haxed out before but the exaggeration about glare is so cringey holy shit. People acting like they glare a rocky helmet tang to death on a regular basis FOH. Also can we be real about the usage % of its sets. There'll be one tour game where zyg used something and now what, thats standard to some of you forever? Im surprised people arent listing core enforcer specs as a set, yall misleading and u know it lmao. no disrespect to some of my friends on here but come on yall know youre taking advantage.

Forgetting zygarde for a second ive heard and seen a ton of people complain that the metagame is stale and needs change. yo idk if some of these people realize this but STALE = BALANCED. I'll take a stale metagame any day like the one we have because its more or less been perfected so s/o to the council and its previous members for deading actually broken shit like pheromosa, arena trap, etc. You guys did a solid job this gen and even taking the time for this sus (despite me disagreeing with it) shows you guys are in touch with the entirety of the community and thats great to see.

I'll vote to keep this in the tier because it isnt broken to me at all. Hell yeah its top tier but broken? ban worthy? nah. BTW i dont even like zygarde and rarely use it because im deterred by all the tang and lando usage, so damn well believe im unbiased.
 
I'm not sure how I feel about this one. My thoughts and stance has fluctuated the more I look into the mon itself, so here's my thoughts on it currently:

Zygarde's versatility is definitely one it's defining aspects, not only for how wide it is but also how difficult it can be to guess what it'll be. If you look at teams with Lando-T, another mon with very wide versatility and similar strengths/weaknesses on paper, you often can guess it's set and role fairly easier these days based on the team it's paired with a lot. That is not so easily the case with Zygarde. It ends up becoming an issue of where you risk losing the game if you predict the wrong set. Predict the Choice Band but get your Tangrowth toxiced? Try to status it then it goes for Sub to start setting up? Switch in a setup stopper like unaware Clef only to get 2hKO after rocks or Steeliumed? It's very easy to see why people don't like this snek as it can be so hard to find the correct counter before it ends up beating said counter through incorrect prediction of the set.

However each set has it's own weaknesses and effective checks/counters to deal with each of 'em, the snek doesn't have a single set that blanket covers the meta like Naganadel, and there isn't 1 mon you have to run on your team otherwise you'd lose to it straight up Ex: Defensive Mega Scizor (before Mega-gross started running HP fire for it). While the argument that needing Tangrowth or Bulu on your teams for it is fair, are very much needed to keep you from losing to Zygarde Thousand Arrow Spam, but they are also very viable in the meta outside of that purpose with different sets they can run and aren't as restrictive as locking you from a Mega Slot as with the Gross-Scizor example, or running an un-viable mon with no other purpose like Sligoo for Magmortar when it was in PU.

Now this isn't exactly relevant to the argument, but I also would've really preferred it if we could've had a suspect ladder without Zygarde on it instead of keeping the regular ladder to see it's how it's potential departure would impact the metagame, as the insight has been useful before as shown during the Duggy suspect where it became evident that Arena Trap was the real issue and banning Duggy wouldn't solve the issue the metagame was facing. But seeing how this is the direction that suspect tests are headed for the foreseeable future, beggars can't be choosers I guess.

This suspect will likely be the most important of the generation. My main worry is very much what the counsel is stressing; how people shouldn't be voting solely for the purpose with meta change in mind. And while the forms have been kept clean of that so far, that sentiment is so wide rampant everywhere else like I've never seen. If Zygarde does get banned large in part for that reasoning, then it could set a precedent for any further ,potential, suspect tests for at least the rest of the generation that having "meta change" is more important than making rational decision based on balance or health which would be extremely detrimental to the suspect process and make coherent arguments far less meaningful. Not saying it will definitely happen, but to quote Yoda from Star Wars: "To a dark place this line of thought will take us. Grave care we must take."

My personal opinion is not locked in yet, I'm still open and looking how the test progresses and other people's thoughts. But at this current time, should I get the reqs to qualify, I'm leaning towards no ban on Zygarde.
 
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Rewer said:
We can go over this

Lando-T: can switch in like once or twice, but easily chipped down due to no reliable recovery.
Tangrowth: might be one of the best counters, but may lose to toxic or z dragon (bad set tho).
Tapu Bulu: can switch into arrows, but there's iron tail, and it also loses to coil zygarde 1v1.
Clefable: decent check, but doesnt take banded arrows very well and may get haxed by paralyzes (unaware will beat dd at least but may still get haxed by coil if it gets knocked).
Gliscor: perhaps sd ice fang can 1v1 coil zyg but not very reliable at all (will take a lot from cb arrows and wont beat dd).
Latias-Mega: does not enjoy being paralyzed or eating banded arrows often at all. Vulnerable to toxic and pursuit.
Reuniclus: this takes around 40 from cb, +1 z ground almost kills and you'll probably get haxed by coil.
Scizor-Mega: curse sciz this can check coil zygarde at least, but very vulnerable to getting haxed by coil + doesnt switch into cb too well.
Hippodown: Whirlwind hippodown is a very nice answer to coil zyg, but you better not let last mon zyg win. Will lose to toxic.
Mew: Defensive mew perhaps is one of the best counters due to synchronize beating status zygarde. However it can get beaten easily since it still takes 40ish from banded + a lot from tectonic rage.
Tapu fini: decent answer to coil but no recovery. Does not enjoy banded arrows.
Quagsire: Checks DD. May get haxed by coil and falls to cb.
Slowbro(mega): Slowbro with ice beam started being used in tournaments exactly because its a good zygarde answer. However its always vulnerable to parahax and dd + z move may take it out with some chip damage. Also doesnt enjoy Toxic.
Mimikyu: lol.
Aggron-mega: No recovery and takes alot from arrows idk man.
Avalugg: same as slowbro really.
Buzzwole: Well if you have like bulk up roost ice punch, it probably does counter everything but toxic sets, but is this pokemon really doing anything man.
Kyurem: its rocks weak, cant switch into arrows very well, doesnt enjoy being paralyzed on switch, may die to z move with some chip.
Cresselia: sure, but theres always toxic, and if zyg user is paired with a tyranitar this is going down fast.
Most mons in italic: being able to kill zygarde is cool but they cant switch it in without being heavily punished by glare or massive arrows damage and zygarde can come in very often against many pokémon in the OU tier, so they dont really help the cause

Yeah, you can use one of the mons above and call it a zygarde answer. But they may not stop you from losing to zygarde depending on its set, or on how many paralyzes it can get. This pokémon can defeat the majority of its supposed counters with parahax or a creative set such as subtoxic or z iron tail, and it gets many opportunities to come in against mons such as heatran, toxapex, celesteela, magnezone, etc so its not like its any easy to not let it come in and do its thing. I think it should go now. I will be voting ban unless some divine light convinces me otherwise.
Click to expand...

I was hoping to avoid having to defend the entire list. But a lot of your response are just flat out inaccurate or we have different definitions of taking something well. By my definition if you aren't 2HKOed and have reliable recovery you take something well.

Lando-t: yes, it isn't a counter hence why I labelled it a check
Tapu Bulu: SD synthesis or bulk up beats coil bar insane hax.
Clefable: 252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Given Clefable has reliable recovery and depending on version is either immune to hazard damage or boosting, yeah its a solid counter to some zygarde sets while checking others.
Reuniclus: 40 from CB is not a big deal when you take zero hazard damage. Also with acid armor, does not give a damn about boosts.
Scizor-Mega: 252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Scizor-Mega: 115-136 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, um yeah it switches into band just fine. True that curse has a decent shot at being crit by glare-coil before it can take it down, but literally hard counters every other zyg set.
Quagsire: 252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery. Sure they might click outrage or toxic, but those are the only two losing propositions for quag as any boosting version is doing pitiful damage and quag can just break through subs at a leisurely pace for chansey to remove its para later.
Aggron-Mega: Always run with wish support. 252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Filter Aggron-Mega: 144-171 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO.
Buzzwole: Besides countering Bulu, Zygarde, checking ash, medi without zen and so on and so forth. Don't critique a mon if you don't know what it does.
Kyurem: Ok this should be converted to check, one of the mistake or two I alluded to earlier.
Cresselia: It doesn't matter if zyg is paired with ttar or if it gets toxicked, as this Trick rooms and is either breaking subs for days or lunar dancing on tar for some TR abuser to mess zyg's team up.
Most mons in italics: Keep zyg from winning until their gone either by breaking sub for another to finish it off or outright beating it. Zyg can't come in on them either. Do they prevent zyg from spreading status and weakening teams no? Which was kinda the point of my post that Zyg doesn't sweep through teams unless they're severely weakened given the enormous number of checks that it has, and we're primarily talking about its ability to weaken teams for its teammates to win.

Zyg is just not that powerful offensively without 2 boosts and a LOT of the metagame can prevent it from getting those two boosts. So I ask again? Is glare so broken as to be worth banning zygarde over it?
 
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Adapt or Die said:
Zyg is just not that powerful offensively without 2 boosts and a LOT of the metagame can prevent it from getting those two boosts. So I ask again? Is glare so broken as to be worth banning?
Click to expand...
Forget the fact that your explanations above on various supposed countermeasures are questionably and the fact that you spam Unaware Clefable + Acid Armor Reuniclus stall on the ladder. If all you boil Zygarde down to alone is simply the offensive variants being able to break through and the Glare set being able to cheese through, then you're missing the point of the suspect test and perhaps Zygarde's effectiveness in itself. I'm not saying Zygarde is broken, but between three Z moves, 2 boosting moves, 2 status moves, the ability to run Rest or Substitute, and a plethora of viable spreads, Zygarde has ways to circumvent a lot of Pokemon on your list that you simply credit far too much. You have to consider things in a broader sense here.

It is entirely true that Zygarde can only run one set and you can oftentimes deduce it from team composition or gameflow, but that does not mean that it has some "4mss" or is "limited" more than other things so much as it has ways to adapt to counterplay. I really think that you and a lot of others should stop trying to look at things in such a linear fashion and instead read the OP and consider things in the context of actual games. Posting a list of checks/counters is generally a linear way of thinking. Instead, try to consider all of the options and play a bit more with it. Pokemon is a games where checks and counters exist, but it's also a game where things are more complicated than just simple checking and countering when other elements come into play such as progressive chip, status, hazards, team support, set uncertainties, etc. Yes, Zygarde is stoppable in the confines of the current metagame and I am not entirely sure it is broken given how stoppable it is. I do not know what I am voting, but I know I that if I am going to vote DNB, it will not be because of anything remotely along the lines of your list of checks/counters or your bizarre limitations of one of the metagame's most versatile Pokemon.
 
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