Metagame np: PU Stage 6 - Hate to see you K.O., Love to watch you leaf (storm) (Exeggutor-A Banned)

[2xTheTap]

(the choice was this or Nicki Minaj, so...)
​

PUTL lords (read: "peudal lords") Specs and I have heard the community's cries for help, and so we've decided to go forward with a suspect test for Exeggutor-A!

Exeggutor-A has cemented its position as a top wallbreaker in PU that all but prevents the defensive portions of our meta from being used optimally; in this regard, it is a highly centralizing threat and a complicated problem for even the most seasoned builder to address. To elaborate, many players have opted to speed creep Modest Exeggutor-A with Pokemon such as Scrafty, Weezing, Lanturn, and Sandaconda, but trading bulk for speed to account for Exeggutor-A may not be worth it in other match-ups, as doing so often opens up weaknesses on your teams to other threatening Pokemon like Aggron, Passimian, Scrafty, Charizard, and more. If Exeggutor-A's only set were Modest Choice Specs, that'd be one thing, but a factor that pushes Exeggutor-A over the edge is its variability. For example, thanks to its great coverage and sky-high Special Attack, Exeggutor-A has room to run a Timid nature in order to adapt to Pokemon like Weezing that tend to speed creep Modest variants. Not only that, but there are many options it can use to circumvent, outlast, or cripple its own checks that make planning for Exeggutor-A a real pain: ex. LO Synthesis, Substitute or 4 Attacks + Dragon Fang / Miracle Seed to bluff Choice Specs, Eject Pack, OTR, Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb for Grass+Dragon resists that don't lose to Flamethrower, Knock Off, and more.

On the other hand, Exeggutor-A is not unbeatable and it's got some attributes that sometimes let it down in practice. Its defensive typing is nothing to write home about, as it sports more weaknesses than it does resists. Some players might therefore spring for Guzzlord instead, which is able to supply its teammates with critical resists (ex. Ghost is an often-neglected resist in this meta) while maintaining a threat level somewhat comparable to Exeggutor-A's when run offensively. What's more, the moves that Exeggutor-A is weak to have wide distribution, which in turn leads it to be chipped easily over the course of a battle, especially if it's not running recovery options like Giga Drain or Synthesis. Exeggutor-A's slow Speed on non-TR sets is also a liability against more offensive teams, which can be a barrier to it wallbreaking consistently when under high pressure. Additionally, Pokemon with Protect (ex. Gigalith, Lanturn, Sandslash-A, Aromatisse, etc.) are effective for scouting which option choice-locked Exeggutor-A will be using next and for mitigating to some extent how much damage it can dish out, assuming teams are regularly built with resists to Exeggutor-A's dual STABs. And lastly, bulkier Pokemon like Articuno are underused in this meta and could potentially be used more frequently to help Exeggutor-A become more palatable, which lends to the idea that further meta adaptations could be made by the community.

There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, we will use the normal PU ladder, which will remain open for the duration of the test. A message will pop up at the beginning of ladder games to indicate that the suspect is going on (Kris - thank you!!). Anyone who wishes to participate in this suspect test will use a newly-made alt with a suspect-specific tag to indicate that you are trying to achieve reqs.

The requirements for this suspect test are the following:

• All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown PU ladder on a new alt with the following format: 'TLA [enter nickname here]'. For example, I might register the alt 'TLA scrambled eggy' to ladder with.
• Do not impersonate other people in your ladder alt (ex. someone other than myself making the account 'TLA 2xTheTap').
• Do not use any usernames that are offensive, flame-baiting, or targeting specific users.
• Do not use usernames that could be interpreted as breaking any of the username rules on Pokemon Showdown!; failure to abide to this will result in you being barred from voting in this suspect and potential infractions.
• To qualify for voting, you must obtain a minimum GXE of 80 with a minimum of 35 games played.

A thread will be posted next week where people can confirm they have achieved the suspect requirements.

The suspect test will last for 14 days, ending on Saturday, June 26th at 12 am EST.

Please feel free to post below and let us know how you'll be voting and why. Good luck qualifying, everyone!

 

[zoowi]

I'll be voting no ban
I like eggy-a and I think it's fine
no counters but a lot of checks, even if you get a free sub up, you can lose it to stuff like specs whimsi (infiltrator) or bug buzz (that has burned me before while using that variant of eggy-a), scyther, etc and they are of course still good mons, sometimes in practice the eggs moves aren't as free as they seem on paper

anyway here a mon I been using a bit

Hitmontop (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Toxic
- Mach Punch
- Rapid Spin
- Close Combat/Triple Axel

intimidate and max defence gives him lots of phys bulk for turns to spin and then he threatens predicted ghosts with toxic, they tend to switch in more when you have intimidate as it gives away your more likely to spin, but thats fine since hey free toxic, can't complain - just make sure to pair him with something that can take care of the eventual sandaconda that will show up like a eggy

 

[Twix]

just got reqs and i'm probably leaning a bit more to the ban side. specs eggy is probably the best set and is pretty unmatched in terms of wallbreaking. a lot of times you find yourself having to make the right prediction between draco/leaf storm/flamethrower, but the right pick almost always leads to a OHKO or 2HKO. also, sometimes this choice doesn't really matter because leafstorm can 2HKO a lot of pokemon that resist it. a lot of the times I just led with it and got a free kill bc there's not really any options to completely wall it and it's pretty hard to OHKO without randomly running triple axel on things like hitmontop or ice beam on claydol.

on another note, here's a cool mon that i used when i was laddering:

Regirock @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 SpD
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast / Stone Edge
- Body Press
- Iron Defense

this set is pretty standard but picks up iron defense in the last slot over something like toxic. this set beats most of the rockers in the tier, especially gigalith, and even beats some pokemon that would otherwise use it as setup fodder like scrafty. it just makes the mon a lot more reliable on its own, even if it does give up a potential status move.

 

[Squash]

Hello there ! I'm not used to share my opinion about a mon but im gonna do it rn bcs why not , so let's start ! (sry in advance for my english)

According to me, Exeg-A is definitely one a the strongest breaker in the tier, thanks to the Choice Specs and his movepool which allows it to OHKO or 2HKO most of the tier. Even if it's always 50/50s with dm/leaf storm/flame, bulky teams without audino + cuno and offensive teams without fairy + zard are usually destroyed by Exeg. It has a correct bulk of 95/85/75 which allow it to be able to eat few attacks from others mons and revenge kill, it's easy for it to switch on stuff like palossand or sandaconda (if not coil dragon rush) and claim souls with draco or another move. The fact that it isn't easy to OHKO without running stuff like offensive lanturn and claydol invested to ohko with ice beam, or protect on every defensif pokemon makes it a huge threat and it can become unbearable if the opponents isn't really prepared to it. According to me Exeg-A is metagame centralising and that's why I think I'll vote BAN.

That's it for this post, I hope I've not done too many mistakes, I'm definitely waiting for other's post to confront our mind about Exeg. Anyway, peace have a great day ! :D
-Squash

 

[Young Gru]

Thought I would give my two cents on eggy-a, I think it nigh uncounterable requiring you to sac one of you're mons to find out which move it's locked into and if you guess wrong you get f'd. I think Eggy's main weakness is its speed stat. You can sac a pokemon on your team to get a clean switch then outspeed and hit for super effective dmg. You just need to be aware of its bulk and adapt properly. Or Swap to a mon that resists Draco Meteor or has an immunity like Fairy types or Steel types, but it could be running leaf storm which is super powerful and will 2HKO pokemon that resists it. Plus it has flamethrower for steel types, so I'm voting for a ban. See you in heck eggy-a. https://pokepast.es/2317c0a093d5e998

 

[Specs]

Hey we have the alt identification thread up early this time, think we'll just have it up quick like this for future suspects. Check it out here and best of luck to everyone participating!

 

[TONE]

While I'm not one who normally shares their opinions, just figured I'd give my own two cents on the Exeggutor-Alola suspect. While I didn't go for reqs mainly due to not being into laddering in general, the consensus seems to favor banning Exeggutor-Alola for the sheer aspect of being a strong wallbreaker with limited switchins to Leaf Storm, Draco Meteor, or Flamethrower while also being able to take advantage of most of our hazard setters such as Gigalith and Regirock due to their inability to threathen Exeggutor-Alola back. If your Sandaconda don't want none unless you got to run an Adamant nature and 164 Attack EVs to guarantee OHKO Exeggutor-Alola with Dragon Rush after a Coil, I'm sorry, but there's something wrong with this scenario to go through all this trouble (not saying it's bad, it works just seems like a waste to sacrifice so much: +1 164+ Atk Sandaconda Dragon Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 332-392 (100.3 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO). Another instance to separate it being suspected now as opposed to last generation, Z moves excluded, was the mindgames with Modest vs Timid Exeggutor-Alola. This wasn't the case in SM when the speed factor came in running Lv 99 Exeggutor-Alola to outslow Lv 100 Exeggutor-Alola under Trick Room. This generation has seen the inverse happen to where opponent don't wanna risk speed ties between Exeggutors so some people opt to forgo the power for the option to guarantee their Exeggutor outspeeds yours since after all, power means nothing if you're too slow to use it. Eventually it comes to a scenario where you yourself will forgo Modest for Timid just to try to get the jump on opposing Exeggutors which would lead to something like:

(This applies to pretty much most mons trying to creep Exeggutor-Alola)

Anyway back on topic. Being a wallbreaker that's also bulky enough to take hits is pretty irritating cause if you don't have the ability to KO it, you essentially lose a mon unless you build adequately enough to cover all your outs (Wish Togedemaru, Aromatisse, Articuno if you wanna go that route) it strains teambuilding in a way where having at least 1-2 responses are ideal at all times just to ensure you're not immediately overwhelmed by it. And this doesn't even take into account the fact that you don't have to be Choice Specs to be effective. Simply bluffing being choiced by using Dragon Fang can be an effective way to lure in Steel-types like Silvally-Steel and Togedemaru and if they're in range of dropping to -2 Flamethrower, you go for it. On the flipside of the argument, points for not banning it have been pointed out in earlier posts, but I'll try my best to go a bit more in depth if possible:

Super Effective Attacks



While this doesn't show all the threats to it, simply taking advantage of its 4x weakness to Ice with Frosmoth or Froslass, every Fairy-type in the tier out speeds and threathens Exeggutor-Alola bar Aromatisse but still checks it, Charizard handles anything not Draco Meteor and scares it out with Hurricane. Granted these are all solid checks but all bar Frosmoth can take a hit barring switching into Flamethrower if no bulk.

Dedicated Special Walls



These were the main ones that came to mind when trying to specify this topic. Frosmoth can be added here too since RestTalk is really good, but these 3 are the main ones in no particular order. Articuno can chew any hit from Exeggutor-Alola and only needs 8 Speed EVs to outspeed Timid Exeggutor-Alola and OHKO it with Freeze-Dry making it more of a "safer" special wall to put it mildly. Audino is more of the stally way of going about it to just Wish + Protect stall to make it run out of PP. Togedemaru is more safer than Audino since its not a huge mometum suck, but the concept still holds with Spdef sets wearing it down with Toxic and Wish + Spiky Shield to keep itself healthy, plus resisting Exeggutor's dual STAB is pretty nice to have for a Wish passer. Other niche mons like Marill can work, but it's so specific it isn't worth the effort 99% of the time.

Faster Threats



Granted none of these mons want to take a neutral hit from Exeggutor-Alola, Passimian can OHKO it with Close Combat, however it does have to be either Banded or has a Defiant boost, Toxicroak scares it out with Gunk Shot or Sludge Wave, and Centiskorch can Leech Life or even negate Flamethrower thanks to Flash Fire and already 4x resists Leaf Storm, but still needs to fear Draco Meteor.

Conclusion:

When it comes to a Pokemon being suspected for me at least, I don't like to throw around the word "broken" simply due to the fact that any Pokemon can be deemed that if their don't have adequate responses to keep it confined. Unhealthy is a bit more appropriate imo as I'm of the mindset of "If you're forced to build a certain way because of a Pokemon, then the Pokemon in question is a problem in the tier." Basically my summation of all of this is, Exeggutor-Alola is less so broken and more so unhealthy for the current metagame. The upcoming tier shift in July wouldn't shift my opinion of this as I don't believe there would be any one Pokemon that would alleviate the problem. So that's my take on the suspect. Now for some sets I've been testing:



Heliolisk @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Dry Skin
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Surf
- Hyper Beam

This set is a standard Scarf Lisk with a unexpected last move. Hyper Voice was doing too little and with Heliolisk, I'm either clicking the first 3 moves anyway. Hyper Beam makes you stay in after you fire it off, but the boon of being a Normal-type pays dividends here and you only wanna click it in a scenario where you die to hazards or status anyway.

Hyper Beam Calcs

252 SpA Heliolisk Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 274-324 (82.7 - 97.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Heliolisk Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Passimian: 328-387 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Aromatisse @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Aroma Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 SpA
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Aromatherapy
- Draining Kiss
- Thunderbolt

This set is weird as it takes away from Aromatisse's perks of being a Wish passer that can't be Taunted, but this is more designed to be a stallbreaker in a sense while trying to get the advantage on Charizard which would come in on this for free, but this can win the 1v1 bar bulky Mystical Fire set, but you still Thunderbolt for good damage regardless and Aromatherapy for status. 20 Special Attack EVs secure the 2HKO on no bulk Charizard whereas you 2HKO Max HP variants after a Calm Mind.



Gallade @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Drain Punch
- Zen Headbutt

This last set was designed to make Gallade do something that could set it apart from other Fighting-types, and this was what I came up with. Being a Fighting-type that can threathen Poison-types like Weezing and Garbodor is ideal to make this set work hence why having Zen Headbutt on here is so neccessary plus the added bonus of getting a flinch in conjunction with Toxic damage plus this set also takes advantage of most of Stealth Rockers like a certain suspected tree does.. Either nature works, just comes down to power vs speed.

Thanks for reading everoyne, apologies for the picture being a bit big, had no time to shrink it lol.

 

[Specs]

Exeggutor-Alola is now banned from SwSh PU!

Thanks for participating everyone!

Kris tagging to implement this

 

[Specs]

Tier Shifts for July are out!​

Usage stats and Shifts for every tier here

Drops:

Rises:

Starting with the bad, Rises. Politoed doesn't matter lets move on!
Xatu was excellent and was probably only getting better, had a good amount of versatility. OG future-port'er. I loved Guzz and have made that clear anytime this mon comes up in discussion, hate that its leaving. It did so much defensively and was very rewarding to gets turns right. Heliolisk I won't miss too much but it did fit on some volt-turns I liked, this will affect the meta a bit but not as much as Guzz. Garbodor was so reliable, and one of the best fairy checks in the meta. Idk not having helmet aftermath for Vallys really sucks too, or anything contact for that matter. I think we'll feel this loss more than some may think. Toxicroak was a top breaker, especially Nasty Plot. It's hard to tell if much will change with it gone, maybe more Palo as a rocker instead of Gigalith?

As for drops, Quagsire is cool. It'll fit on some stalls, which is a very usable archetype seeing some usage. Could it fit on Balance? Hard to say, it might day 1 or 2 of this new meta and never be seen again, or become a staple. I'll be trying it out to see for sure. Articuno-Galar walked in as Xatu was leaving. I think Guno (that name is now coined) will be super deadly, being able to fast turn is actually pretty good to get chip and sometimes safer switch ins than even Xatu could provide. This mon just looks amazing, I have high hopes for it. Recently unbanned Arctozolt really doesn't look like anything special but this is such a different meta now who knows. Quagsire being around is very bad for choiced sets, at least Freeze Dry on boots sets does the job.

These are just first impressions don't take them too seriously

let me know what you think!

 

[Specs]

We had a quickvote and decided to unban Arctozolt, so you do actually get to use it! Not much to see but check out the post here

 

[Just_Aaron]

Tier Shifts for July are out!​

Usage stats and Shifts for every tier here

Drops:

Rises:

will edit with my personal thoughts

let me know what you think!

Really happy for the new drops, mostly because I love Articuno-G's design and it can now be viable in PU, but Arctozolt ain't half bad either.

Ok, so I wanna share some sets I have been thinking about for these new additions for the tier that I hope are healthy lol

Sets

With Xatu leaving, Garticuno's most obvious competitor for a Psychic-type would be the great Mesprit. However, Garticuno has its own advantages, the most notable one being its access to Recover(y), which is huge for a pivot. It also has greater Special Attack and Speed, meaning it can get the jump on mons like Passimian instead of tie with it. And its secondary Flying typing adds a resistance to Grass and a neutrality to Bug, which is great to check Tsareena, Whimsicott and Ribombee. It also adds a Ground inmunity while leaving Garticuno with a different ability in Competitive, which allows it to act as a Defog deterrent.
Now sure, the weaknesses to Ice, Rock and Electric aren't great, but they are managable (specially the latter with Heliolisk leaving), and also Garticuno is force to either run HDB or need hazards control. It also lacks coverage, having no moves to hit Steels type with, other than Shadow Ball (although its STAB Hurricane its so stong that even while resisted it just brey weaker than Shadow Ball)

Pivot (Articuno-Galar) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Future Sight
- Hurricane
- Recover
- U-turn

A pivoting set that utilizes Recover to heal cheap damage and Future Sight to force switches.

Choice Scarf (Articuno-Galar) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freezing Glare
- Air Slash
- Shadow Ball
- U-turn

Choice Specs (Articuno-Galar) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Freezing Glare
- Hurricane
- Psyshock
- U-turn

Double Dance (Articuno-Galar) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Grassy or Electric Seed
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Agility
- Stored Power
- Air Slash

Terrain Seeds can be used to further boost Stored Power, helps with set-up, and be less vulnerable to priority.

Screen Setter (Articuno-Galar) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Competitive
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Hurricane
- U-turn

Yeah the Light Clay ban sucks, but Competitive means that removing te screens in front of Garticuno can be a dangerous task.

Sets

Arctozolt it's quite the threat tbh. Its STABs and only resisted by itself, Volt Absorb Laturn, Togedemaru and the rare Magneton, all of which are vulnerable to Stomping Tantrum (Ok Quagsire is a solid switching... If it doesn't have Freeze-Dry). However, even then its typibg is just bad defensively, and it's not the bulkiest thing in the world. It's also very slow unless you use Hail, which is almost impossible with Gigalith around.

All-Out Attacker (Arctozolt) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Static
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty or Adamant Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Icicle Crash
- Stomping Tantrum
- Freeze-Dry / Substitute

This feels like the best set to me currently, as it doesn't rely on Hail to start breaking havoc. Now sure, against faster offensive teams is not going to fair well, but it does great against bulky slow teams. Freeze-Dry OHKOs Quagsire, but Substitute can be used on forced switches and eases prediction. Static can be used to cripple contact moves, while Volt Absorb can allow you to block Volt Switch from stuff like Lanturn.

Choice Scarf (Arctozolt) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Icicle Crash
- Stomping Tantrum
- Freeze-Dry

If you want to abuse Bolt Beak to the fullest, I think Choice Scarf is the way. Here I prefer Volt Absorb to be able to heal Stealth Rocks damage by switching into an Electric move.

Mixed Hail Wallbreaker (Arctozolt) @ Life Orb
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 60 SpA / 196 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hail
- Bolt Beak
- Blizzard
- Stomping Tantrum

Finally, if you are truly comitted to use Slush Rush, this would be the set. Blizzard is used to guarantee the OHKO on Palossand and Sandaconda, and 2HKO Quagsure, so you don't need Freeze-Dry. EV Spread outruns Choice Scarfers at base 80 speed like Passimian and Mesprit, maximizes attack and the rest goes into Special Attack. Remove Gigalith or die.

 

[SergioRules]

Talking about rises first:

Big win for hazard setters of all kinds. No longer have to deal with the annoying Cosmic Power+Stored Power sets and Fighting-types like Passimian, Toxicroak and Hitmonlee have to think a little less about clicking their STAB moves, especially with Garbodor also rising.

Kinda grouping these two together since even though they function very differently offensively, they open up a huge new option for offensive Water-types. Basculin, Arctovish, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Jellicent, Poliwrath, and Cramorant all become much more useable with either one or both of these mons gone. Toxicroak also decreases competition from other Fighting-types like Gallade and Scrafty.

Really sad about this one honestly, Garbodor was such a splashable Fighting and Grass resist. And having such easy access to Spikes, good speed, and decent power for a generally defensive Pokemon will be a big loss to this tier (even though it wasn't PU by usage).

Psychic-types return now. Mesprit and Uxie don't need to worry too much about Dark-types anymore other than Scrafty. Some other Psychic-types like Jynx, Mr. Rime, and Exeggutor might see a rise in usage too.
e: Guzzlord and Heliolisk also makes Ghost-types that much more problematic. Be prepared to either have itemless mons or run lots of bulky Scrafty.

Not gonna talk about Politoed bc lmao

As for drops, I'm really excited. These all seem really interesting and not necessarily outright broken. Quagsire gives stall another option, though most of the ones we've been seeing in PUPL and Slam so far have been using Pyukumuku just fine. Garticuno seems like a really cool mon to have, a more offensive replacement for Xatu, Freezing Glare is a super cool move imo, and having reliable recovery is so rare in a Gen 8 mon. Arctozolt seems extremely fun but not sure how it will fair with the Snow Warning ban. Pretty excited to see how this meta plays out for now!

 

[Squash]

Hello there ! Gonna drop quickly my thoughts about the drops and rises, of course that's before testing the mons ingame so that could be not right, anw we'll see.

Rises :

First of all we lost this bird, I wasn't a big fan of him bcs his main goal was to bounce rocks, but every rocks setters are able to hurt xatu a lot, so I don't think this rise will impact a lot the metagame and the way we played games.

Then we lost guzzlord, pretty annoying when I see we got a strong Future Sight user, and when it was one of our main water resist. It will for sure helps a lot of thing to shine in the next weeks, I'm defo thinking to offensive water types such as Basculin and Ghosts which will be able to spam their powerful poltergeist.

I'm kinda happy with this one, Heliolisk was really painful to deal with : with his water immunity, it has a self healing if it comes on water attacks, and it's keeps easily the momentum thanks to his typing and his more than correct speedtier. Still I don't think his leave will affect that much the usage of pokemons that were played to check it (thinking to lanturn, gigalith, SpD toge, etc..)

Houston we have a problem, we are gonna lack of grass and fighting resist ! More seriously I think it's a huge loss for the tier, that was of one of best way to check Fairy/Grass/Fight types such as Fairy-Vally, Tsareena, Passimian, there is more for sure but that's the one that come instantely in my mind. We'll see with the time if Weezing can handle these threats as well as Garbodor did

As for Helio, I'm happy with Toxicroak leaving. I was forced to play stuff like Zard + Kasib Palo or Garbodor to handle most of the sets and actually, even like that it usually didn't work as well as I expected. If special and he poisons with sbomb, Charizard can't check it anymore and Garbodor had to check a lot of things for one mon.

Disclaimer I've never seen this mon be used in any team in my whole life, so idk what to say

Drops :

Sooooo we got Quagsire, I'm not sure of that to think, it will probably help a lot stall to be stronger in the metagame, but I think it will help for sure to handle a lot thing that are currently hard if you don't get an anti set up mon or a real rock resist (something that don't die to +2 LO Lycanroc and CB Aggron). Anyway we'll see with time if it's an healthy mon for the tier.

This look actually kinda cool on paper : his ability to FSight + Pivot on stuff like gigalith or silvally-steel to let a strong fight type do the job looks pretty interesting to play around, as for OU where it is a rly strong combo, I'm excited to see few games with it in

I'm kinda skeptical with this one, it has a strong combo of STAB and good coverage mooves but his speed isn't rly great, I think it will be still use quite often, as for galar-cuno i'm excited to see how it does in games !

Well and that's it, hope u enjoyed reading and I wish u a good day (sry if my english is poor :v)
-Squash

 

[zoowi]

what else are you supposed to do with newcuno? (thats what I call articuno-galar)
all I hear is future sight future sight future sight- it has other moves! is future sight that amazing?
I haven't heard a mention about hypnosis or flame orb psycho shift (meme, but sigilyph wannabe is cool)
it seems pretty free with its sets too, I could see scarf or specs being useful as well, even lifeorb
somewhere in the A rank no matter what

 

[Just_Aaron]

what else are you supposed to do with newcuno? (thats what I call articuno-galar)
all I hear is future sight future sight future sight- it has other moves! is future sight that amazing?
I haven't heard a mention about hypnosis or flame orb psycho shift (meme, but sigilyph wannabe is cool)
it seems pretty free with its sets too, I could see scarf or specs being useful as well, even lifeorb
somewhere in the A rank no matter what

I posted here some sets ideas (though so far I have mostly tried the pivot set) here

And probably you mentioned Flame orb as a joke, but it mostly worked for Sigilyph thanks to Magic Guard ignoring residual damage, im Garticuno's case, it would just wear it down quicker.

 

[wooper]

what else are you supposed to do with newcuno? (thats what I call articuno-galar)
all I hear is future sight future sight future sight- it has other moves! is future sight that amazing?
I haven't heard a mention about hypnosis or flame orb psycho shift (meme, but sigilyph wannabe is cool)
it seems pretty free with its sets too, I could see scarf or specs being useful as well, even lifeorb
somewhere in the A rank no matter what

here are a handful of sets that i came up with (not including those Just_Aaron shared). bulky cm is definitely the most viable of the bunch, the rest are just to mess around with but im sure they have some merit. i havent toyed around with any except for bulky cm but if anyone wants to try out some of these and report back then you are more than welcome to !

 

[Specs]

gm, OU banned the item Kings Rock so by extension it is also now banned here, you can check their reasoning ect here

 

[mushamu]

I think Charizard should be suspected. The power level in this tier is absurd. Between preparing for 3 different Silvally forms, Charizard, Arctovish and Arctozolt, Scrafty, Tsareena, and other Pokemon, it's so hard to make a consistent team that matches well with a majority of the metagame because there are just a ton of borderline broken threats that are sitting in the tier. Taking a look at Charizard helps this issue because it's so hard to answer it defensively which massively contributes to the metagame being super centralized. It's by far the hardest Pokemon to prepare for in the builder currently.

Preparing for Charizard is absurd; you're forced to basically run an Archeops or Lanturn, if not those two something like Gigalith or Regirock are less reliable answers since they die to Toxic without recovery. Archeops and Lanturn beating Charizard is an uphill battle where they both get chipped down in the long run by Toxic; Archeops is forced to spam Roost which can be taken advantage of and Lanturn's Heal Bell only has 8 PP which means Toxic is putting you on a timer in the long game. Even with the best answers, it's incredibly easy to force progress with Charizard and gain momentum especially considering how many Pokemon it threatens out. Charizard can also run sets like Swords Dance and Focus Blast to beat its usual answers like Lanturn and Archeops respectively.

TLDR; I personally think getting rid of Charizard is a step forward for this tier because it's absurdly strong, forces specific counterplay onto teams which aren't even too reliable long term, so banning it would free up a lot of the metagame which leads to it being more healthy.

 

[zS]

I think Charizard should be suspected. The power level in this tier is absurd. Between preparing for 3 different Silvally forms, Charizard, Arctovish and Arctozolt, Scrafty, Tsareena, and other Pokemon, it's so hard to make a consistent team that matches well with a majority of the metagame because there are just a ton of borderline broken threats that are sitting in the tier. Taking a look at Charizard helps this issue because it's so hard to answer it defensively which massively contributes to the metagame being super centralized. It's by far the hardest Pokemon to prepare for in the builder currently.

Preparing for Charizard is absurd; you're forced to basically run an Archeops or Lanturn, if not those two something like Gigalith or Regirock are less reliable answers since they die to Toxic without recovery. Archeops and Lanturn beating Charizard is an uphill battle where they both get chipped down in the long run by Toxic; Archeops is forced to spam Roost which can be taken advantage of and Lanturn's Heal Bell only has 8 PP which means Toxic is putting you on a timer in the long game. Even with the best answers, it's incredibly easy to force progress with Charizard and gain momentum especially considering how many Pokemon it threatens out. Charizard can also run sets like Swords Dance and Focus Blast to beat its usual answers like Lanturn and Archeops respectively.

TLDR; I personally think getting rid of Charizard is a step forward for this tier because it's absurdly strong, forces specific counterplay onto teams which aren't even too reliable long term, so banning it would free up a lot of the metagame which leads to it being more healthy.

Great post honestly and nice discussion launcher, while I agree with Charizard being quite overwhelming in the builder, I think it's better for us to keep it and to try to get rid of stuff that's also overwhelming but doesn't bring up much to the table either. I think a step forward that we could make, and that's what the survey was there for, is suspecting either or one of the 3 overwhelming forms, mainly ghost.

While I don't think guno is on the same power level as charizard, I still think it's very very very annoying more than anything. It doesn't bring much to any team but it forces really strong preparation in the builder, and I feel has less proper counterplay than charizard which makes options on teams way more limited. On the other hand, Silvally has been the premier sweeper of the tier since virizion's departure in my opinion, and while i think the most problematic is silvally-steel offensively, I do think that it brings so much to the table that i would rather keep it and try to get rid of the second most problematic form instead: silvally-ghost. Silvally-ghost has popped off recently as soon as people figured double edge was an option on offensive sets. With that, Scrafty is no longer safe against it and so is drampa, which were the two main ghost resists outside of itemless stuff but these don't apply to ghost-vally anyway. This leaves ghost-vally with very little counterplay, and its typing allows it to get some easy set-up opportunities and less options for revenge killing it, since we don't have any good scarfer that can revenge kill it after a flame charge, which only leaves defensive counterplay that is already super limited due to how strong normal + ghost coverage is. I think suspecting silvally-ghost might be the move, but I guess we'll wait til the survey results are shared so that we can see what other people think about. In the meantime, I would like to know more about what other people think about this meta's threats before the survey goes out, so we continue discussing about it either here on the pu discord.

 

[mushamu]

Great post honestly and nice discussion launcher, while I agree with Charizard being quite overwhelming in the builder, I think it's better for us to keep it and to try to get rid of stuff that's also overwhelming but doesn't bring up much to the table either. I think a step forward that we could make, and that's what the survey was there for, is suspecting either or one of the 3 overwhelming forms, mainly ghost.

While I don't think guno is on the same power level as charizard, I still think it's very very very annoying more than anything. It doesn't bring much to any team but it forces really strong preparation in the builder, and I feel has less proper counterplay than charizard which makes options on teams way more limited. On the other hand, Silvally has been the premier sweeper of the tier since virizion's departure in my opinion, and while i think the most problematic is silvally-steel offensively, I do think that it brings so much to the table that i would rather keep it and try to get rid of the second most problematic form instead: silvally-ghost. Silvally-ghost has popped off recently as soon as people figured double edge was an option on offensive sets. With that, Scrafty is no longer safe against it and so is drampa, which were the two main ghost resists outside of itemless stuff but these don't apply to ghost-vally anyway. This leaves ghost-vally with very little counterplay, and its typing allows it to get some easy set-up opportunities and less options for revenge killing it, since we don't have any good scarfer that can revenge kill it after a flame charge, which only leaves defensive counterplay that is already super limited due to how strong normal + ghost coverage is. I think suspecting silvally-ghost might be the move, but I guess we'll wait til the survey results are shared so that we can see what other people think about. In the meantime, I would like to know more about what other people think about this meta's threats before the survey goes out, so we continue discussing about it either here on the pu discord.

I agree with Galarian Articuno being stupid, but it's not because it forces really strong preparation in the builder and has less proper counterplay, it's the fact that it has no good counterplay at all and is impossible to prepare for in the builder unless you run some insane shit like Taunt Scrafty. The classic Future Sight + Fighting Pokemon isn't too bad because you can just run a Protect/Spiky Shield Steel/Gigalith and be fine, but the main thing that makes Galarian Articuno broken is its Future Sight in combination with a phasing Pokemon like Roar Aggron. You can click Future Sight against Weezing/Tsareena/whatever turn 1, and as they go into their Steel/Gigalith, you can go to your phazer pretty freely and roll the dice. This turns games into dice rolls, because you can't actually just go into your Steel and click Protect/Spiky Shield to shield yourself from Future Sight sequences. You basically have to switch and hope Future Sight doesn't hit your wincon after Roar pulls it out. If it does, then you're basically fucked. This is completely different than Charizard or just running a Passimian with Galarian Articuno in the sense that there literally is no good counterplay to this sequence besides hoping you get guessing games or Roar rolls right. You can pull Future Sight + Roar off in other tiers, but PU is a really fragile tier in which every team has 1-3 Pokemon that get obliterated if they're hit with Future Sight and Galarian Articuno is especially strong compared to the rest of the tier and has recovery which lets it pull it off multiple times during a match if Roar doesn't drag out the correct Pokemon. There are also pretty good options for phazers and a lot of them are bulky as well. The main thing would be Roar + Galarian Articuno not being extremely common at the moment but if it picks up in SCL or whatever I think it would expose how unhealthy this Pokemon is or can be.

Personally I would hold off on the Silvallys for now, and I can agree with you that Galarian Articuno over Charizard is the way to go in terms of suspects just because Future Sight + Roar is downright stupid. The Silvally forms give more of a "Greninja in SM OU" vibe to me where they have a good amount of counterplay for each of them; it mainly comes down to making educated guesses on the sets at team preview and playing carefully. None of the forms are really too much by themself especially compared to Galarian Articuno + Roar and they all have different downsides. Steelvally and Poisonvally have good defensive typings but aren't as great offensively because their main STAB moves are worse against the metagame; Ghostvally is incredible offensively but it requires really careful play in order for it to really sweep because it's susceptible to a lot of things and harder to fit onto teams due to not offering much defensively. Fairyvally is a weird mixture of both, and the rest aren't that good. It's really hard to pick out one form in particular and be like "yeah, this one is too much for the metagame", when they all have their upsides and downsides with decent counterplay. All of them require really good positioning in order to pull off a sweep. I don't think getting rid of Galarian Articuno would free up too much space in the builder since it's not too hard to prepare for it when paired with a Fighter and it's impossible to prepare for with Roar but it's the Pokemon that's most obviously broken to me so getting rid of it feels like step 1.

 

[Vulpix03]

Decem wrote a really good post, so I won't write a novel reiterating what he said, however I did want to show my support of his posts, and give a quick recap of my thoughts on the threats in question.

Charizard: Definitely a pain in the builder, but also something that adds a lot to the tier in terms of defensive utility and support. A centralizing force, but one that has its benefits and getting rid of it may have a snowball effect on the tier.

Galar Cuno: Huge pain, and decem's above post outlined the reasons why very well. It is a centralizing force, albeit an underused one at the time of this post. Future sight is extremely OP in the tier, and Guno is insanely strong. Ultimately, Guno is a pokemon that adds nothing of real value to the tier, yet is a huge pain in the builder.

Silvally (all forms): I don't believe any Silvally form is worth testing, or deserving of a test. Steel adds a lot defensively and SD sets have more than enough counterplay. Fairy is slightly better offensively than Steel, but still easy to manage in the builder. Ghost is the most dangerous offensively, however relying on moves like double edge to take down normals, + being a Silvally and lacking recovery means that it isn't hard to beat down / limit its set up.

Tsareena: I'm actually of the opinion that Tsareena is borderline broken, lol. Great coverage with moves like HJK, knock Off and U-turn coupled with its ability to remove hazards and boost its own speed at the same time is a lot to handle for teams that don't have Weezing. I think the main thing holding Tsareena back is its base speed, meaning that you can offensively check it quite easily if it didn't get a spin off. Definitely a huge pain in the ass though.

Scrafty: Fuck this mon. In most cases it forces you to run a fairy type so that you don't just lose to it. Can be overwhelmed offensively if you are lacking a fairy, however, but Scrafty will almost always beat a Fairy-less / Quagless balance team. This mon is similar to Galar Cuno in my opinion; it doesn't add much of value to the tier but is a huge pain in the builder.

Drampa: Alolan Eggy 2.0, basically. Specs set gets a kill or does 50% to a resist every time it comes in. Chople and other similar sets can lure its usual counters, and roost gives Drampa longevity that most other breakers lack. Probably broken, lol.

To conclude, the main Pokemon that I would test would be Galarian Articuno, with Drampa, Scrafty and Tsareena in a distant second. Charizard and the Silvallies add a lot to the tier, and in my opinion the things they add justify and outweigh the "centralization" that the tier may have formed around them, especially Charizard and Steelvally.
In the end, I'm pretty sure we all feel that something needs to happen to improve the tier. Looking forward to hear from more people.

 

[avarice]

I agree with most of what's already been said (mainly just disagree with Ghostvally prevalence) and want to specifically echo Vulpix03 with Drampa and Scrafty. These Pokemon are incredibly potent and do not hold the tier together in any manner, and I believe would be better candidates for a suspect rather than something like Charizard that really warps the meta (keeping SCL in mind). Scrafty is able to have utility throughout the game through basic Knock Off spam and will always have value, especially if there is no Fairy-type from the opposition. Very few cores can confidently claim to beat a well-played Scrafty long-term (largely contributing toward Termi's PU Open success, TJ's PULT run, etc.). The main Pokemon being Aromatisse, which is a huge momentum drain and can be an outright liability outside of a full stall. This is not even considering Dragon Dance Scrafty sets that can be brutal behind Sticky Web support, which often can run Roseli Berry and can Poison Jab/Iron Head your Silvally-Fairy, Whimsicott, etc. There are some more niche options such as Choice Band and Roar Scrafty that are enjoyable and can really screw with standard answers as well. The PUPL Finals Tiebreak game between TDK and TJ is a solid example of how Scrafty can be annoying from both sides, note the Quagsire's sustainability vs Whimsicott.

I do not have much to add with Vulpix03 mentioned in regards to Drampa, it's just a stupid breaker that not even our Specially Defensive sponges can truly handle. I don't need to post a wall of calcs, but threatening Audino and Gigalith with OHKOs on the special side is crazy (assuming you land Focus Blast). You already smack Steel-types with Fire Blast, and can even tweak its coverage. Already confident with Audino matchup? Just go Hydro Pump for the accuracy boost and neutral coverage while still hitting Aggron and Gigalith, Grass Knot works similarly against the bulky Rock-types and can hit Wishiwashi without Spa drop, and so on. Calm Mind and Berry sets have been somewhat explored, though Choice Specs is such a reliable breaker you often do not need the boosts and Drampa is so strong it's wasteful to use it as a Lure set. This is more a display of Tsareena's power in the tier, but a decent example of Drampa's strength is PULT playoffs during Chloe vs Somalia.

I would appreciate a Galarian Articuno suspect too, as it similarly does not provide much to the tier as a whole. However, I personally do not find it as overwhelming when you have to prepare for Ribombee, Mesprit, etc. already. Roar + Future Sight is a strong combination but relatively rare and has been seen in actual tournaments games like, twice max? I only remember Tlenit running it in PULT off hand. Even the pool of Roar Pokemon is somewhat limited and requires luck to make significant progress. Once revealed it can be a real risk to fish for the right Pokemon pulled out in general. That being said, it gone would allow for much more breathing room and lessen the need for Protect on Pokemon like Ferroseed and Gigalith and could help prep for the aforementioned Pokemon that are difficult to handle in the tier as is. I personally think suspects (or quick bans ig, prob too far in development for those) of one of these Pokemon is ideal with SCL going on.

 

[PlusC]

I'm gonna throw in one last, less flashy suggestion for a troublesome pokemon.



Fuck this thing. It's like a Bizzaro Shedinja that can only be harmed by Grass moves. It spreads Toxic easily and can chunk most of it's checks with Ice moves, or threaten them with a burn. You can't set up on it and it just sort of doesn't die.

We have a lot of good grass mons in the tier right now (Tsareena, Trevenant, Gourgeist. Thwackey, Whimsicott) but only one of them can really risk a burn and none of them like Ice Beam.

Curse sets are also horrible to deal with.


Stall is a bit stupid at the moment and I feel like Quagsire is a big part of that.

 

[5Dots]

I'm gonna throw in one last, less flashy suggestion for a troublesome pokemon.



Fuck this thing. It's like a Bizzaro Shedinja that can only be harmed by Grass moves. It spreads Toxic easily and can chunk most of it's checks with Ice moves, or threaten them with a burn. You can't set up on it and it just sort of doesn't die.

We have a lot of good grass mons in the tier right now (Tsareena, Trevenant, Gourgeist. Thwackey, Whimsicott) but only one of them can really risk a burn and none of them like Ice Beam.

Curse sets are also horrible to deal with.


Stall is a bit stupid at the moment and I feel like Quagsire is a big part of that.

Quagsire, while it is still a forefront of stall, is nowhere near overbearing IMO. This is because a lot of Pokemon with Taunt, like Weezing and Druddigon can tamper with its walling capabilities, and numerous Pokemon carry Toxic as their last move, causing it to switch out/recover more often than not. Its lack of offensive presence makes it setup fodder for dangerous Pokemon like G-Articuno and Frosmoth, and it tends to get overwhelmed quickly with hazard stacking from the likes of Qwilfish and Froslass.
Grass-types can also pivot into a predicted Recover, and there’s no shortage of great Grass-types that can stop force it out like Tsareena, Whimsicott, and Gourgeist-S.
Curse sets can be dealt with by the same reasons above - Haze on Golbat/regular Articuno can even be thrown to hit home to put a stop to any sweeping shenanigans.

 

[SOMALIA]

Stall isn't that bad to deal with and there is more than enough threats who are viable that just dismantle stall as a core of 3, 2 or even single-handedly at times. Quagsire seems annoying on paper but bear in mind:

1) It can switch in to passive tanks, alot of whom use Toxic for the most part.
2) Alot of Physical attackers it can perhaps tank a hit or two carry U-turn and can just end up bringing in something that will just outright scare Quagsire out and then rinse repeat...think A-Galar. Basically, it is to some extent a momentum sink.
3) If it runs leftovers it can hard check certain physical checks better with the added 6% per turn but that means you are pressured to keep hazards off / using boots means alot of 3hkoes turn into 2hkoes and even things like LO sandslash in sand become alot more threatening.
4) The most viable Pokemon almost all have ways to deal with it and it cannot even 2hko things which supposedly it is SE vs.


Seriously, with the arcto brothers in town / future sight + pivot / wallbreaker silvally sets / toxic charizard / stored power bulky psychics / Throh / knock off being literally everywhere / Drampa I think Stall is kept under control for sure.

I hate Articuno G but that is just biased since I use things which increase the chance of luck based events occuring but I think it is incredibly strong in terms of the strategies you can create with it, probably what you'd call the "mvp" of a team, its so good. thankfully not many people use the phazer + future sight set.