NP - Cheshire's Dance: SV ND DOU Suspect Process - Zygarde

[big pichu]

It's time for National Dex Double's first suspect -- Zygarde!

Suspect Reasoning​

Zygarde has recently taken the scene by storm, with Thousand Arrows providing an extremely powerful spread STAB option with near perfect coverage as it uniquely hits flying types, and can be extremely hard to deal with even after a single boost, whether it be via Dragon Dance or by receiving a Coaching boost. It's not always possible to rely on traditional ways of slowing down attackers, since Zygarde's bulk and access to Extreme Speed allow it to remain threatening under Trick Room, and the extremely common combination of Clear Amulet prevents it from being slowed down by Intimidate.

Zygarde often forces guessing games on whether it's running the Dragon Dance set or the Choice Band set, meaning that opponents have to deal with both the possibility of taking a strong immediate hit or the possibility of Zygarde setting up and running away with the game. Additionally, Tera allows Zygarde to pick and choose weaknesses in the team builder, typically using Tera Normal to avoid having its boosts stolen by Marshadow or Tera Fire to flip its Fairy and Ice weaknesses into resistances.

However, there is still counterplay to Zygarde. Marshadow has been increasingly popular with its ability to steal Zygarde's boosts, and stat-clearing moves like Clear Smog and Haze can slow down Zygarde's progress significantly, and stop it from running away with a match. That being said, this comes at an opportunity cost, whether it comes at a move slot restriction (Haze) or being forced to have a Clear Smog/Haze user in general, that some find to be overly restrictive in the teambuilder.

Overall, Zygarde has been developed into an incredibly potent force in the current metagame, with many high level matches featuring a mirror. The combination of immediate pressure and the limited options to deal with the set-up set made Zygarde a potential tiering topic. While Zygarde isn't infallible, the purpose of this test will be to determine if our playerbase deems them sufficient in number and consistency to keep Zygarde in the tier or if it's too overbearing in either the teambuilder or battle to remain in National Dex Doubles. Zygarde will be banned if 60% of eligible voters or more vote to ban.

Suspect Test Information​

• Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 40 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 20 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 40 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.​

minimum games required

GXE​	Minimum Games​
79​	40​
79.2​	39​
79.4​	38​
79.6​	37​
79.8​	36​
80​	35​
80.2​	34​
80.4​	33​
80.6​	32​
80.8​	31​
81​	30​
81.2​	29​
81.4​	28​
81.6​	27​
81.8​	26​
82​	25​
82.2​	24​
82.4​	23​
82.6​	22​
82.8​	21​
83​	20​

• You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NDDCD. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NDDCD big pichu.​
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.​
• We will be using the regular National Dex Doubles ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.​
• The suspect being tested, Zygarde, will be allowed on the ladder.​
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.​
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.​
• Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Your voting requisites will be confirmed by a Council member or National Dex Doubles moderator, to which we will edit in confirmation. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.​
• The suspect test will begin at Wednesday, August 30th at 10PM PDT (GMT -7) and go on for roughly 13 days, lasting until Sunday, September 10th at 6PM PDT (GMT -7), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.​

 

[Iceberg77]

I think Zygarde is undisputedly the single most threatening offensive Pokemon in the tier right now, and it leverages every single thing that is potentially broken in the format to its advantage, making it virtually unstoppable under the right circumstances (which aren't that hard to come by). It's very clear that its Dragon Dance set is the primary point of contention here, as the Choice Band set is much more manageable through various means, whether that be speed control or Intimidate or Wide Guard. The Dragon Dance variant, on the other hand, is a true monster and, in my opinion, is far too unreasonable to keep under control for it to remain in the tier.

In many cases, once Zygarde has set up one or two Dragon Dances, the game is simply over. It cannot be contained through Intimidate because of Clear Amulet, which it ubiquitously runs, and Terastallization turns its weaknesses on their heads and makes it extremely difficult to remove through brute force either. Zygarde can freely setup on many Pokemon which would otherwise counter it (Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao, Rillaboom, etc.) by turning into a Fire type and gaining one or two free turns, which, as mentioned, can instantly end the game in many cases. Add to this the fact that you often cannot actually hit Zygarde but are instead forced to attack the Jirachi next to it or are bombarded by Fake Outs from its partners, and it becomes far too easy for a team with Zygarde to generate free turns in which Zygarde can setup with impunity and then sweep through a team without having anything to fear.

Zygarde is also currently by far the best beneficiary of Zamazenta's Coaching, which turns it into a truly unkillable threat and only accelerates the pace at which it ends games. There is a legitimate question as to whether Zygarde itself is actually broken or if it is simply its enablers, namely Zamazenta and Jirachi, who are to blame. Obviously Zygarde would not be able to achieve such spectacular levels of absurdity without these two by its side, but I personally do think that even if both Zamazenta and Jirachi were removed from the tier (which they perhaps should be, but that's a different topic), Zygarde would still be too much to handle even on its own. Its natural bulk and movepool alongside Clear Amulet and Terastallization are in and of themselves incredibly dangerous, and as I mentioned, all it requires are a few free turns to end games, which can be achieved simply through the combination of Fake Out support and Tera, without the need for any other broken elements (not to mention the potential of other redirectors such as Amoonguss).

In terms of counterplay, I think the only true "counter" to Zygarde is Haze, which it cannot Protect against or have redirected, but all other forms of counterplay are only provisional or only work under certain circumstances. Marshadow, for instance, only works if the Zygarde is not Tera Normal, and even if it's not Tera Normal Marshadow's progress is still limited by the potential of redirection. Wide Guard seems like it should be a pretty fullproof counter to Zygarde, but we have seen multiple examples in tournament of Zygarde muscling through teams even in the face of Wide Guard, even if its only attack is Thousand Arrows (Example 1, Example 2). To begin with, there are only two or three viable users of Wide Guard in the whole tier (Zamazenta, Pelipper, and Garganacl, one of which is only usable on rain and one of which is debatably even viable at all), and being forced to spam Wide Guard turns the user into a sitting duck, vulnerable to being worn down by Zygarde's teammates. Additionally, if the Zygarde has Extreme Speed then you're at risk of simply wasting a turn by clicking Wide Guard, and games can quickly deteriorate into 50/50s from there. Although Haze is indeed the one "fullproof" counter to Zygarde, it seems to me to be a similar situation to Dondozo + Tatsugiri in that it is unreasonable to be required to run a move that most Pokemon utilizing it would never otherwise want to use. Zygarde is able to bypass almost all forms of counterplay far too easily to be considered balanced, and all of this is not even considering other potentially broken combinations that in my opinion are as of yet underexplored such as Zygarde + Gothitelle.

TLDR: zygarde is dumb, pls ban

 

[NatDex AG forever]

The fact that one single move can render him obsolete (such as haze etc) means that he cannot legitimately be banned.

You cannot legitimately argue "oh no, I will have to waste one slot in my entire team, that's too much!", because it is just one slot for one move.

And as if that was not enough, it's not just one move, there are more than one combination of moves that render him obsolete.
And no, Zygarde does not bypass almost all other forms of counterplay «far too easily». Instead, in order to bypass a wide-guard, it requires skill and it requires reading the opponent, which is 100% part of the game. The example replay provided in the comment above is simply an example of someone who played poorly (I watched the replay).

At its core, Pokemon metagame is a rock-paper-scissors game. If you keep playing "scissors" all the time don't be surprised some people show-up playing rock. "Oh no I don't want to have to choose anything else than scissors!" ..geez.


TL;DR
Grow up and stop banning just because you lose. Adapt your team instead, that's what this Pokemon game is about.

 

[zee]

The fact that one single move can render him obsolete (such as haze etc) means that he cannot legitimately be banned.

You cannot legitimately argue "oh no, I will have to waste one slot in my entire team, that's too much!", because it is just one slot for one move.

And as if that was not enough, it's not just one move, there are more than one combination of moves that render him obsolete.
And no, Zygarde does not bypass almost all other forms of counterplay «far too easily». Instead, in order to bypass a wide-guard, it requires skill and it requires reading the opponent, which is 100% part of the game. The example replay provided in the comment above is simply an example of someone who played poorly (I watched the replay).

At its core, Pokemon metagame is a rock-paper-scissors game. If you keep playing "scissors" all the time don't be surprised some people show-up playing rock. "Oh no I don't want to have to choose anything else than scissors!" ..geez.


TL;DR
Grow up and stop banning just because you lose. Adapt your team instead, that's what this Pokemon game is about.

post elo

 

[adpg.2007]

Well, maybe Zygarde-50% is very strong, but not in unhealthy levels. It sometimes lack power due to his below average 100 base Attack Stat and can be beated if the opponent plays enough well mostly of the time.

I play enough with a Team just for the Suspect Test and the other members make more progress than Zygarde in most of the matches.

Zygarde is sure strong, but not enough for be banned really