NP - Brick By Boring Brick: SV ND DOU Suspect Process 5: Stakataka

Status
Not open for further replies.

Smudge

NatDex Doubles TL
is a Site Content Manageris a Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Top Community Contributoris a Metagame Resource Contributor
Moderator
Well, go get your shovel
And we'll dig a deep hole
To bury the castle, bury the castle
Go get your shovel
And we'll dig a deep hole
To bury the castle, bury the castle

Suspect Reasoning - written by eragon

Stakataka has been a defining piece of the Gen 9 National Dex Doubles metagame for some time now as a powerful trick room option that combines strong offense with impressive defensive characteristics. Stakataka has been a somewhat relevant piece of Doubles OU metagames throughout Gen 7 and 8, although it has always been held back by a few severe limitations, including two four-times weaknesses to typically common offensive types in Ground and Fighting and a propensity to having its offensive power weakened by common Intimidate Pokemon like Landorus-Therian and Incineroar. In Generation 8, Stakataka acquired access to the move Body Press, allowing it to somewhat overcome this Intimidate issue by utilizing its absurdly high Defense stat offensively. When unopposed, Stakataka’s impressively low speed allowed it to take advantage of an extremely powerful Gyro Ball that was capable of reaching 150 base damage on many common targets, and being capable of acquiring even more damage output from its Beast Boost ability. Stakataka’s upside was, by itself, more than enough to secure it a solid niche in both DOU formats it was legal in prior to Generation 9, even in the face of well-defined weaknesses and counterplay.

However, with the arrival of Generation 9 and National Dex Doubles’ creation, Stakataka has been able to benefit greatly from several new introductions that it missed out on from being cut from the Pokedex of Scarlet and Violet. Stakataka acquired the ability to hold the Clear Amulet item, all but eliminating the weakness to Intimidate that had helped hold it down for generations, making Gyro Ball one of the most devastating attacks in the entire format. As if that wasn’t enough, Stakataka gained access to Terastillization, helping it overcome its mediocre natural defensive profile and turn into one of several viable Tera Types to allow it more opportunities to set Trick Room for itself and start sweeping. The combination of these buffs would eventually help turn Stakataka from a solidly viable but somewhat uncommon pick into one of the most versatile, powerful, and self-sufficient trick room options ever seen in any DOU tier. Stakataka has seen usage on an impressive variety of archetypes in NDDOU, ranging from Sun, to Fullroom, to Semiroom. Stakataka still struggles to break through slower, bulkier pokemon like Iron Hands or Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, who take significantly less damage from Gyro Ball and are capable of OHKOing Stakataka if it doesn’t use Tera (and can still threaten it for respectable damage after a Tera). Further, Stakataka’s less impressive (but still decent) special bulk means it can still get fairly worn down over time before it even gets a chance to really get going. However, Stakataka’s ability to pair effectively with basically any other strong Pokemon in the tier affords it impressive flexibility that can make it more difficult to reliably and consistently answer Stakataka.

While Stakataka has been around in some capacity since the creation of the tier, Stakataka’s usage started to increase significantly with each successive ban, including the bans of Urshifu-Rapid, Zamazenta, and Metagross-Mega, all of which possessed type advantages into Stakataka or were able to utilize impressive physical bulk to shrug off Stakataka’s attacks. Stakataka reached a new level of prominence in last year’s edition of Doubles Derby, where it saw over 17% usage (somewhat high for a Trick Room option). Further, the end of Doubles Derby saw the banning of Zygarde, another powerful mon with a positive Stakataka matchup. In the next team tour featuring NDDOU, NDPL, Stakataka usage increased even further, making it all the way to being tied as the third most used Pokemon, with an impressive 25% usage rate and 71% win rate through the regular season. The most recent survey saw a marked increase in interest in tiering action regarding Stakataka, with Stakataka scoring a 2.66 out of 5, the highest of any mon present on the survey. Concerns about Stakataka have been reverberating throughout the community for a while now, and given the fairly high usage rate and score on this survey the NDDOU council has decided the time is right for a suspect, especially with the arrival of the next Doubles Derby coming in the next several weeks.

As usual, 60% of the vote must be in favor to ban Stakataka.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!


The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in DOU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played DOU before the test, full stop.)
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, sealoo, or Runo, or a member of staff.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me, big pichu, or eragon - or post here!
The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2950 (and a B value of 5.5 - you do not need to worry about this it is just for the formula).
The suspect laddering period is now underway and the deadline for getting requirements is Sunday, February 23rd 6:00 PM Pacific Time (GMT-8).

Stakataka will be legal during this suspect.

Suspect Test Ladder Rules:
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex Doubles ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The element being tested, Stakataka, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
Discussion Thread Rules:
  • No unhelpful one liners nor uninformed posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspects -- if you wish to discuss another Pokemon, we encourage you to do so in the metagame discussion thread, but this thread is strictly to discuss if Stakataka is banworthy or not - not, for example, Clear Amulet or Shadow Tag;
  • No discussion on the suspect process -- this includes testing Stakataka vs other potential suspects;
  • Do not use the argument of broken checking broken. Should your argument rest on your opinion that banning the Pokemon or mechanic being tested in this suspect test will make a Pokemon or mechanic broken, overpowered, and/or uncompetitive; don't. If something needs to be banned because of the result this suspect, then so be it.
  • You are required to make respectful posts; Do not flame, belittle, or be disrespectful to users in this thread. While not everyone will read this post in its entirety nor will everyone have an informed opinion, please be sure not to be disrespectful. If there's an issue, bring it up to a moderator.
  • Failure to follow these simple guidelines will result in your post being deleted and infracted without any prior warning.
Sample Teams - many featuring Stakataka!
 
Alright this is heat.

Obviously as a trick room spammer I have played a LOT of stakataka and I do agree that Clear amulet and tera were fixing the main issues, and it sets TR itself, can use Beast Boost very effectively to become unstoppable.

However, when Using Staka, I have needed to use Tera a lot of times because its base typing is just not it. it also has coverage problems, as it can't hit a lot of ypes for SE damage, and that is even a bigger problem since it will generally slot in Gyro Ball and 1 attacking move. so like it will Kill Flutter mane and get attack boost but if you're not running the perfect 2 moves vs your Opp there are odds there will be a lineup where Stakataka can't put in work. However Gyro ball beast Boost is nut and TR Counterplay rarelly can take such hits repeatedly so Staka is hard to deal with for most teams.

I'm not gonna lie I am biased towards Banning Staka. I've been told a lot that Glastrier was just worse Staka and that Staka would be more useful most of the time, so No more Staka leads to more Glast and I am not against that. besides, Staka made TR much less diverse, and I do not appreciate that
 
I was gonna code but I got distracted and started laddering


1739176884076.png

Anyways hi all, long time viewer, first time caller. I made a team around Stakataka 'meta blind' and ended up pretty much using it the entire run, or at least 90% of it. This mon is slow, to the point the only really reliable switchin is like a 4x resist to Gyro Ball or is astronomically slow (not base 50), like opposing Stakataka. I ended up using the age old gimmick of it + Perrserker alongside Tera Steel and suddenly Gyro Ball no longer cares about resists, especially with attack boosts. Is it viable? I dunno but it sure just melted anything that was in front of a Gyro Ball. Voting ban.

If you really want to ladder with my highly questionable ideas then here you go: https://pokepast.es/7a79c23a773fabbb
 
Last edited:
stak is a little bit too overtuned in this tier. Its able to set TR for itself pretty safely due to its overwhelming physical bulk and typing (really only threatened by z moves or lando-i, not hard to mitigate) and then sweep in its own TR utilizing its beast boost to snowball out of control. Clear amulet makes gyro ball a bit too threatening, as its hitting for 150 bp on almost every mon in the tier off of a 131 base attack. On top of all that, Stak also boasts very diverse coverage, able to flex into body press, high horsepower, rock slide, and heat crash to cover mons that it typically wouldnt be able to touch like iron hands, incineroar, amoonguss, sinistcha, etc.

What really pushes stak over the line is its ability to tera out of its glaring ground/fighting weakness, after which it outtrades basically every threat it has. Playing against this pokemon comfortably requires you to identify what coverage its carrying, what tera it could be, and whether its attack or defense boosting, all of which might require different counterplay. Depending on team structure, it might even opt to drop protect for a third coverage move - like we've seen from xqiht a couple times. In a tier with bo1 or team swap tournament structures, it is extremely unhealthy and unbalanced.

some calcs against T1 and T2 pokemon for your consideration:
136+ Atk Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Stakataka: 268-324 (82.2 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO : Unintimidated Iron hands, no tera on stak, 4x weak btw
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 295-348 (92.4 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO : Once TR is up, many calcs just look like this. any chip from rocks and stak is ohko'ing just about everything in the tier that doesnt resist gyro ball
+1 0 Def Stakataka Body Press vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Incineroar: 362-428 (91.8 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO : Defense booster stak can just ohko incin after 1 kill anywhere on the team
252+ Atk Tera Steel Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 20 Def Tapu Fini: 316-372 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO : My personal favorite tera has a shot to just ohko fini
252+ Atk Stakataka Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Charizard-Mega-Y: 166-196 (49.2 - 58.1%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO : comfortable 2hko on mega zard


Anyways, got my reqs and I will be voting ban on this threat
 
I absolutely hate the laddder. Between the Cosmic power techs, the echoed voice rains, the Zeraora spam, Tera normal greninja, I think that Glastrier atp is REASONABLE. I think that after experiencing the sheer amount of RNG I understand why I keeping myself away from previous suspects.
Anyways uhm I agree with "ban marshadow" this thing is toxic af, Ghost fighting is js THAT unbearable, I'll be Finishing reqs when it will stop causing me physical pain to click on the 'Battle!' button
 
Got reqs; this wont be well written cuz I have stuff to do today and my thoughts will be a bit disorganized.

Natdex and making mons obnoxious because they were made without tera in mind; name a better duo.

I think personally it's like borderline; but I'm leaning on ban for right now. It can stay in on mons (thanks to tera) it has no right staying in on; has a movepool that threaten 80% of the relevant mons in the tier. I love Stakka; and I was going in thinking I'd vote DNB, but it kinda is effortless. If anyone has differing opinions I am willing to change my mind if you can send me replays and that sort on good answers.

It is ironic that both mons being suspected in both doubles tiers (arch and staka) excel best in semiroom and can snowball out of control.

Team I ran: https://pokepast.es/a1470851ed78f770 (Literally just a sample team) If you're interested in getting recs I reccomend this team; Do not use the fullroom team with Camerupt. Idk why and I talked to someone else about it, but it feels really hard to pilot. (Skill issue perhaps?) Eitherway; I find the bodypress set underwhelming; but can probably work if you have gyro + rock move; but I wouldn't go def boost for beastboost even then.
4 Atk Deoxys-Attack Superpower vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Stakataka: 204-240 (62.5 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (2hkos)
252+ SpA Deoxys-Attack Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stakataka in Psychic Terrain: 206-243 (63.1 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (and deoxys is an excellent expanding force user, which means often it will have psychic terrain to very nearly OHKO)

I get what ur trying to say; but if room is up (Which it will be if staka is on Deoxys-attack for any chance of this happening;) Deoxys-attack is never ever landing a hit on this on ever; and if it's only a 2hko it's even worse honestly; Also staka will almost aways use the tera on these teams so that superpower will do negative damage.
 
Last edited:
I will be voting Ban. Stakataka has been a driving force in the metagame since laptops started spamming it during last year's derby, and teams have become more optimized around it, most recently featuring teams with Shadow Tag Gothitelle to force board positioning and semiroom structures. Echoing what Kunal mentioned, Clear Amulet and Tera this gen have allowed Stak to remove what makes it balanced in previous generations. Without the ability to mitigate its damage Stak tends to steamroll after 1 incorrect turn, which puts too much pressure on the metagame. After a +1 boost it can nearly 1v1 almost every mon in the tier, and there's not much that can be done to stop it with the support from correct teammates. Stak further capitalizes on the lacking amount of strong fightings and ground types in the tier.
 
Last edited:
Just got reqs and used staka for a bit of my journey, and I'll be voting ban.

This thing just comes in and sweeps when trick room is up, and also just is hella bulky, while ignoring intimidate, fake out, and fighting moves with clear amulet and Tera ghost. Completely and obnoxiously powerful, so yeah.

Btw I just used samples lol
 
Hey, i just got reqs

This is my first time posting here, but i've been playing NDDOU for the last several months after getting bored with VGC.
as a quick intro, I have been top 10 on the ladder fairly consistently, and almost reached #1 a few times, i typically run TR so im pretty experienced with :Stakataka: .
In my experience, :Stakataka: feels extremely domininant. I personally really like playing with it, as it fills so many roles at once, and i worry a ban may make trick room teams far worse, but I still think it is a major problem that needs to be dealt with. it shuts down so many team building ideas because it would simply not be able to keep up with the damage :Stakataka: can do. The multiple tera types, like flying, ghost, fighting, etc. make it nearly impossible to kill if you don't have a big z-move or weather/terrain boosted special move to ko it. Beast boost and the item slot makes it far harder to control, as the only way to slow it down is via will o wisp or reflect, which don't fit on many teams in the current meta. The bulk is one thing, but i believe the speed is the strongest part. not being able to check this with a torkoal in TR makes it feel almost neccesary to have your own :Stakataka: or another hard counter like wide guard :pelipper: or :gholdengo: or in order to beat it. I think a ban of :Stakataka: would let things like :tyranitar-mega: , :gholdengo: , :ferrothorn: , :mawile-mega: , and :diancie: see more usage as their team slot opens up, which i think are far healthier options and open more options for team building.
Because of all that, I'm voting ban.
 
1739594966724.png

Team I used: https://pokepast.es/187bc6d1032b4ae9

Got the reqs cuz wynaut... after playing this and my only loss being getting timed out while grabbing a snack I have concluded that:
1) This is a super fake and dead ladder
2) Stakataka w/ CLAM is so unbelievably good and sweeps easily once you get TR up safely
3) This might've been a waste of time

Although I believe Stakataka is extremely good, even to the point where it's the whole appeal of a lot of TR teams, I think that it's not impossible to plan around. After all, I faced other Stakataka teams and it's not like it was a struggle; just have your counters, that's what I would say about any top tier Pokemon in most tiers/metagames.

So as to continue watching things crash and burn, I'll be voting not ban.
 
Captura de Tela (89).png

Had an longer road than usual to getting reqs but it was fun (as fun as ladder can be)
My main take away from the experience of fighting staka and seeing people play against it on tour games is that it can almost always set up trick room, usually burning tera doing so, and from there take 2 or 3 mons using gyro ball or body press, both of which snowball hard. The only downside of using staka is that its a bit of tera hog, which doesnt really matter if you trade your tera for half of the opposing team. Also the sheer number of teras it can use can make it hard to face, do I go for fake out and get tera ghost'ed, do I go for knock reading the tera and then it reveals its tera fighting body press, killing your dark type instantly or even tera grass for facing amoongus or fire to avoid burns, you get the point.
Saying all that my reason for voting ban is that I find it an annoying and not exactly healthy piece of the meta, altough I maybe could be conviced otherwise.
Bronzong is also way cooler as a trick room steel type anyway
 
I guess we are allowed post urselfs team I guess?
I emm,have no idea about how did you guys send large sentence。Whatever,I think I vot not ban stak。I dont know is this count or not。should,we send large marked word not ban,and oly that a count?and emmm……nah,I am just here to share team
I used:
charY double hard control
charY jumpluff ursaB stak inc flutter
https://pokepast.es/bd2f55f38fb86382
heavy trick room
indeeF hatt torkoal stak ursaB deoxyA
https://pokepast.es/8f54defc7ee276f1
very very early team,but I guess that count as “used”?Im not very advice u use it
https://pokepast.es/eede8469586efd15
tinglu stall psychic spam harvest
tinglu glimm inc indeeF stak deoxyA
https://pokepast.es/d1838f7730eabe04
I didnt used but I think they are interesting(or just some cool idea,didnt even spread EV):
https://pokepast.es/ddcc2fa39efca459
https://pokepast.es/e91c722954865993
https://pokepast.es/d8b6b82afeb7d52a
 
Last edited:
Although not everyone has voted, nothing can be done to change the outcome.

Current votes: 29
Total voters: 38
Votes required to ban: 23

Stakataka: Ban (23/29 = 79.31%)
Stakataka: Do Not Ban (6/29 = 20.69%)

As the 60% majority has been reached for action to be taken, Stakataka is now banned from National Dex Doubles. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to merge my PR; thanks!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top