Resource Normal-types cannot be paralyzed by Body Slam

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Jorgen

Jorgen

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So Crystal_ just dropped this bomb on us, and he's basically the one dude in the world that knows RBY cart mechanics down to the machine level, and fully appreciates their importance in high-level RBY play. Needless to say, it's probably legit.

Basically, in-cart, Normal-types are immune to Body Slam for the same reason that Fire-types are immune to Burn, Ice-types are immune to being Frozen, and Poison-types are immune to non-Twinneedle Poison. The RBY gods, in their infinite wisdom, decided to implement these reasonable restrictions by setting things up so that NO move of the same type as the attacked Pokemon may inflict a secondary status effect. This means that Body Slam cannot paralyze Normal-types, and Lick cannot paralyze Ghost-types. Pure-status moves such as Toxic, Thunder Wave, and Stun Spore seem to have their own pure-status handler and therefore are not subject to this oversight (so no XY-style immunity to Twave for Electrics, nor immunity to Powders for Grasses).

Needless to say, this is a pretty big deal, mostly because of Normals being immune to Body Slam. In particular, Snorlax and Tauros may now have better options for their main STAB, as one of Body Slam's main perks is being able to paralyze opposing Snorlax and Tauros in the oh-so-common dittos. Granted, there's still value in Snorlax being able to para Egg/Lapras/Golem, and in Tauros paralyzing stuff like Starmie and Alakazam, but now that Body Slam is just a weaker variant of Double-Edge (or even Mega Kick in Snorlax's case) in dittos, there's probably a legitimate reason (rather than gimmicky reason) to consider using those moves instead. Also, an unparalyzed Chansey now fares a ton better against these dudes without having to fear being paralyzed by Bslam.

Crystal_ can clarify where I might be slightly inaccurate, but the most important bit is the Body Slam thing. SPL RBYers, be aware!

EDIT: there's also the other thing Crystal_ found describing how, precisely, stat changes are handled in conjunction with status, thereby giving rise to Agility canceling out paralysis Speed drops. In particular, a paralyzed Amnesia Slowbro could spam Amnesia against a foe that, itself, is paralyzed, thereby compounding the paralysis speed drop and obtaining the Speed advantage.
 
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It's been a big day for RBY, needless to say.

There's certainly a lot to ask. I think the most obvious thing on everyone's mind is Chansey: is it too much to handle?
Ways to beat Chansey:
- Sleep (difficult, unreliable, Sing Chansey may not even do this suitably)
- Freeze (Chansey freeze wars or blizzard from OU's various users - inconsistent at best)
- Snorlax/Lapras/Tauros (All much less the case now. When Chansey is paralysed, they all have decent enough odds to achieve this (though inconsistently), but these are uncomfortable situations and require paralysing chansey first)
- Machamp? (Not used in OU play frequently before, but a STAB fighting type user looks plausible to see).

Also, tobybro gains from the boosting/statusdrop features, and tanklax has become a whole lot better. Pity counter chansey probably still annihilates it. I'm feeling Harden/Amnesia/Rest/Ice Beam Snorlax would be an effective set.

Other takes, other opinions, what else is affected? And I wonder, how soon can we try this out?

oh also lol 1k. So marcoasd I have to ask, in this metagame:
what happens to porco dio clause?
 
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RIP RBY as we know it

also lol chansey is not OP just stronger than before. do you think its hard to paralyze chansey??
 
So I believe Stadium fixed the stat-lowering glitch, is that right? Is the body-slam-normal-paralysis issue different in Stadium, too? In other words: did Stadium mechanics suddenly get more appealing competitively?

This is so huge I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it. The stat-lowering thing is a big deal, but not too dramatically influential. It changes some key match-ups, most notably with Slowbro, making things like Harden more appealing on Snorlax, and helping out against Agility Dragonite maybe. But the Body Slam thing changes things in a big way, after 15-some years. Are we implementing this for sure, without question? Or is there going to be a debate/vote (there are already SOME cartridge mechanics that are altered intentionally in the sims, after all)? I'm not sure where I land - this is a lot to process - but I'm interested in knowing what the "next steps" are for the community.
 
Yeah, that's right: rip Body Slam. Cartridge confirmed by me. However, only inaccurate thing is that Leech Seed and Toxic are supposed not to hit grass types and poison types respectively (at this point there's no certain thing).

P.S: this thing could actually be voted as it really is a particular scenario. Answering Golden Gyarados: yes, there are things intentionally changed, and the first thing (maybe only) that comes to mind is that obnoxious Dig/Fly bug.
 
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Piexplode said:
Other takes, other opinions, what else is affected? And I wonder, how soon can we try this out?
Click to expand...

I wonder if Persian will see an increase in usage - it never relied on body slam on offense, and it won't fear paralysis from Tauros or Snorlax anymore, so it can hit fast and hard against these guys even better now? Any other normal types able to take advantage of this new found immunity - Clefable maybe? Can mess with Tauros and Lax with special moves and not worry about paralysis from them in return?
 
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I just find it insane this kinda stuff manages to fly under the radar for so long. IRC bots were what now, 14 or 15 years ago? The emulated meta has been going on this long and things are still being fixed?

I can't imagine how many hundreds of tour matches have been decided by BSlam paras on Tauros and Chansey at this point, how many games were technically invalid due to this oversight. It's just insane.
 
Crystal_ said:
Since I understand this can be hard to believe, here is some shitty video I just made. Basically it's me body slamming a rattata at 600x speed:
Click to expand...

I think we can all agree that this battle involved hax. :P


I can see why this slipped under the radar; as Normals don't resist Normal (and nobody bothers spamming Tbolt into Electrics since para isn't worth it) it's rare that they'd last long enough for their continuing avoidance of the secondary effect to draw notice. Whereas if you didn't know Ices were immune to freeze, you might try to beat Lapras with Ice Beam (which doesn't even 20HKO when non-STAB) and alarm bells would go off.

Also mono-Normal typing is even better than it was, which was already bloody amazing. Now, as well as having high-powered STAB moves and no major weaknesses, they can dodge para better than average.
 
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So aldaron pasted this on irc and I'm thinking about whether all side effects of a move would apply... I mean, we could see Psychic never dropping Special against a psychicmon. Sounds like a big deal.
 
So it ends up being a different glitch than the one thought in the OP.

The Pokemon Stadium 2 guide screenshot seems to imply that the following was meant to happen: If a Pokemon were to be attacked with a move it would get STAB from, it would not be affected by its side effects (Think Shield Dust nowadays, only restricted to the user's own types). Apparently, the actual glitch is that it only stopped certain secondary effects from happening, instead of all of them.

I'm surprised it was actually intentional. Regardless, Thunder Wave is going to be a lot more valuable... I think. Not that it wasn't before.
 
Remember, the Stadium 2 screenshot is an English translation - it's possible the translation was inaccurate. So I'm not so sure Siggu is correct on this one.
 
"Formerly, if the attacking move's type and the Pokemon's own type are the same, then the Pokemon won't get the move's secondary effects... But!

It's a bit different after Gold and Silver.~"

Or at least that's the gist of it. I'm not that good at translating, but as far as I can tell the official translation is indeed correct.
 
So basically I should have won those SPL battles is what you're saying.

The benefits of Body Slam are still pretty enticing. I'm not sure I'd be willing to drop it from Snorlax or Tauros just for mirror match ups since you were always rolling the dice in those situations.. just less luck variables with these mechanics, I guess. But.. the damage calc exercise would be worth a look.


Deaga said:
Wait, so you mean every single simulator has been wrong all along on a metagame that's almost 20 years old? This is just too insane lol.

Guess nobody ever played competitive RBY on the cartridges, heh.
Click to expand...

Back in my day, we didn't have your fancy, magic wireless internet built into our gameboy pockets! Only that mythical "link cable"...
 
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