Ninjask (Uber BatonPass)

Bruno Magno

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[OVERALL]
Ninjask, with 160 Speed, a not bad 90 Attack and a not bad movepool, is one of the best BatonPassers in the BW Uber metagame, maybe only outclassed by Smeargle (Shift Gear) and Gorebyss (Shell Smash)

[SET]
Name: Speed Pass
Move 1: Baton Pass
Move 2: Swords Dance
Move 3: Protect / Substitute
Move 4: X-Scissor
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Speed Boost
EV: 248 HP / 160 Def / 100 Speed

[Set Comments]
  • +2 Attack and +2 Speed is really helpful for most sweepers (Rayquaza, Giratina-O, Ho-Oh, Groudon etc.)
  • Protect gives a free Speed boost
  • With a Jolly Nature, outspeeds +1 Rayquaza (if Mild / Naughty) and Timid Scarf Kyogre
  • Substitute stops Lugia trying to phaze with Dragon Tail
  • Great Attack to sweep with, X-Scissor is 1HKO on most Mewtwo and Darkrai
  • With this spread, can resist at unboosted Life Orb Extremespeed from Arceus

[Other Options]
  • Mental Herb can be used to prevent Taunt
  • Lum Berry avoids Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave and such
  • Bug Bite can eat Lum Berries
  • Hone Claws, boosting Attack and Accuracy, helps sweepers that use low-accurated moves (Stone Edge, Dragon Rush, Aqua Tail etc.)
  • Metal Claw can kill foes with 1 HP for Focus Sash and give a free Attack boost, but X-Scissor is preferable
  • Other offensive moves are Aerial Ace, Night Slash and Dig, but they're quite useless

[Checks and Counters]
  • Thundurus is maybe the worst counter, with Prankster Taunt + Thunder Wave
  • After two Stealth Rocks damage Ninjask is dead, so Rapid Spin support is absolutely necessary
  • Extremekiller and can easily outspeed and score a 1HKO
  • Encore (Jumpluff, Whimsicott) forces a switch
  • Shadow Sneak from Giratina-O does 58% - 68%, 1HKO after Stealth Rock damage
  • Minor counters are Zekrom, Groudon, Rayquaza, Lucario

[Partners]
  • Rapid Spin support is a must, best partners are Forretress, Excadrill, Kabutops
  • Ninjask works well in Baton Chain Teams, so Gorebyss can help passing Shell Smash or Amnesia + Iron Defense
  • Groudon is a great partner: Thunder under the sun has only 50% Accuracy, so set-up Substitute is easier, and decrease the power of Water-type moves (for example, 252+ Palkia @ Lustrous Orb does only 40% - 48% with Aqua Tail)
  • Baton Pass is useful especially for mixed sweepers such as Giratina-O, Palkia, Rayquaza and for set-up ones (Dragon Dance, Bulk Up)
 
I highly doubt this as we have SmashPass right now, which highly outclasses this.

On a side note, you're not following the format.

Set should look like this in my opinion:

[SET]
name: Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Protect
move 4: Substitute / X-Scissor
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly
ability: Speed Boost
evs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 100 Spe

EVs let you take +0 ExtremeSpeed from LO Extreme Killer and outspeed +2 Omaster and +1 neutral-Speed nature Dialga.

Again, I highly doubt Ninjask's effectiveness with SmashPass right now.
 
Just to say, Substitute doesn't block Taunt. And there is also no point in using Substitute if you're holding a Sash - it'll just negate the Sash straight away. Have Leftovers for steady recovery when running Substitute.
 
Fantom0 said:
Just to say, Substitute doesn't block Taunt
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That's new to me
Fantom0 said:
And there is also no point in using Substitute if you're holding a Sash
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Substitute should be used over Protect in sets with Mental Herb / Levtovers
Furai said:
I highly doubt this as we have SmashPass right now, which highly outclasses this.

On a side note, you're not following the format.

Set should look like this in my opinion:

[SET]
name: Baton Pass
move 1: Baton Pass
move 2: Swords Dance
move 3: Protect
move 4: Substitute / X-Scissor
item: Leftovers
nature: Jolly
ability: Speed Boost
evs: 248 HP / 160 Def / 100 Spe

EVs let you take +0 ExtremeSpeed from LO Extreme Killer and outspeed +2 Omaster and +1 neutral-Speed nature Dialga.
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I'll change
Furai said:
I highly doubt this as we have SmashPass right now, which highly outclasses this.
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Ninjask is a different type of Baton Pass: it's easy to pass +6 Speed and +4 Attack, while a Smashpasser won't use it more than once
 
this set is highly ineffective due to the advent of team preview, any good opponent will not let ninjask pass any attack boosts, and maybe not even any speed boosts!

furthermore it's pretty much entirely outclassed by shell smash as said before
 
Furai said:
You don't need to use it more than once.
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Most of time a Shell Smash isn't enough, while two Swords Dances are much better
Poppy said:
this set is highly ineffective due to the advent of team preview, any good opponent will not let ninjask pass any attack boosts, and maybe not even any speed boosts!
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Shell Smash isn't hard to stop either, that's not a reason
Poppy said:
furthermore it's pretty much entirely outclassed by shell smash as said before
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Shell Smash passes only +2 Attack and Special Attack, and bad defensive drops
 
But, Shell Smash brings you +2 Attack / Special Attack and +2 Speed immediately. Ninjask, however, takes a few turns to get the boosts you need, while Shell Smash does that in a single turn.
 
Spork said:
In what situation is ninjask ever SD'ing more than once?
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First SD on a switch and another one in the next turn. Just 1 is enough, though
Furai said:
But, Shell Smash brings you +2 Attack / Special Attack and +2 Speed immediately. Ninjask, however, takes a few turns to get the boosts you need, while Shell Smash does that in a single turn.
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At the first turn SD, then Protect, and there are the boost, without defensive drops
 
I doubt this sets effectiveness also after the plethora of phazers there are at the moment also. Ninjask is screwed if something with Roar or whirrlwind comes in Dtail also if it SDs on rhe switch, and the time it takes to set up encourages that.

The others dont have this problem due to spore and in gorys case brute power. In order to better deal with dtailers though I think protect should be slashed with sd.

Mention whimsicotts encore, larger then minor IMO turns it into set up in counters.
 
Mr.lol said:
I doubt this sets effectiveness also after the plethora of phazers there are at the moment also. Ninjask is screwed if something with Roar or whirrlwind comes in Dtail also if it SDs on rhe switch, and the time it takes to set up encourages that.
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Every Batonpasser has a phaze weakness, so that's not a Ninjask "peculiar weakness"
Mr.lol said:
Mention whimsicotts encore, larger then minor IMO turns it into set up in counters.
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^ Right
 
I'm seeing no reason to use this over Smeargle given how much better Smeargle's unique traits are for the purpose of passing than Ninjask's. Spore + Shell Smash is the huge thing there, and that combined with Ingrain / Magic Coat is much more useful than Speed Boost and a fast X-Scissor, so unless you can provide some convincing logs I'm probably going to QC reject this.
 
Anything with Roar or Whirlwind owns this. All common users of those moves in Ubers: Lugia, Giratina, Skarmory, Groudon, Dialga and Arceus will just phaze you out, making Ninjask useless. All of them laughs at even boosted X-Scissors.

At least Gorebyss can Hydro Pump or Ice Beam phazers with its great Special Attack stat, while Smeargle can Spore them. Shell Smash is also the one Smeargle is passing not Shift Gear.

Giratina-O can just make you sad with Shadow Sneak + Dragon Tail. The presence of Extremekiller Arceus made this worse. Not liking Ninjask at all, provide some logs to show how good it really is. Being 4x weak to Stealth Rock means you will usually fail to pass more than once.
 
trickroom said:
Shell Smash is also the one Smeargle is passing not Shift Gear.
Gorebyss is used for SmashPass, Smeargle usually has Shift Gear

Giratina-O can just make you sad with Shadow Sneak + Dragon Tail.
As all other BPassers

The presence of Extremekiller Arceus made this worse.
Usually you try to kill / weak priority abusers before starting a Baton Chain

Being 4x weak to Stealth Rock means you will usually fail to pass more than once
Can switch on the Rocks twice with 8 HP EVs, Ninjask is used only with Rapid Spin support, and also Volcarona and Ho-Oh have this problem
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Tobes said:
is much more useful than Speed Boost and a fast X-Scissor
Maybe, but Smeargle and Gorebyss can't 1HKO Mewtwo, Darkrai, or do a great damage at Cresselia, Lugia and Blissey, while Ninjask can
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Logs as soon as i can
 
Gorebyss can do far, far more damage to Mewtwo, Darkrai, Cresselia, Lugia and even Blissey than Ninjask ever could. As previosly stated, Team Preview totally messes Ninjask up, SR ruins it, and it is simply outclassed by SmashPass, which is allowed in Ubers. I don't see this being effective at all.
 
Cherub Agent said:
Gorebyss can do far, far more damage to Mewtwo, Darkrai, Cresselia, Lugia and even Blissey than Ninjask ever could
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Assuming Gorebyss after 1 Shell Smash and Ninjask after 1 Swords Dance, both without boosting items and with max Attack / Special Attack, there are some calcs
Gorebyss (Surf) > Defensive Calm Mind Mewtwo = 80% - 94% (55% not 1HKO'ed even after Stealth Rock damage)
Ninjask (X-Scissor) > Defensive Calm Mind Mewtwo = 111% - 130% (100% 1HKO)
--------------------
Gorebyss (Surf) > 252/252+ Cresselia = 42% - 49.77% (20% not 2HKO'ed even after Stealth Rock damage)
Ninjask (X-Scissor) > 252/252+ Cresselia = 59% - 69% (100% 2HKO)
And so on
Cherub Agent said:
As previosly stated, Team Preview totally messes Ninjask up
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Isn't the same for Smeargle and Gorebyss?
Cherub Agent said:
SR ruins it
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I said 3/4 times "Ninjask must be used with Rapid Spin support"
Cherub Agent said:
and it is simply outclassed by SmashPass, which is allowed in Ubers. I don't see this being effective at all.
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^ Can't say what i think about that
 
Nice calcs of Pokemon that will never stay on a Baton Pass user!

Give us some real calcs against Dialga, Giratina-o, Giratina, Skarmory, Groudon, Arceus, Lugia etc etc.
 
I don't think gorebyss can set up against phazers like lugia and giratina, and i don't think it can OHKO them too (without boosts). personally, I'd never use a baton passer against giratina or lugia, but I'd send it against something that must switch out, like mewtwo or darkrai in case of ninjask, to force the opponent to switch, just because only a stupid wants to loose a sweeper against a baton passer and let him set-up. the problem is not how good a baton passer is, but how good is your abilty to use them correctly and set-up in the right moment. each pokemon has got its weaknesses, ninjask has got 4x to stealth rock, gorebyss has the weakness that can't come in safely without the risk to be koed or phazed away, because it can't come in with giratina or mewtwo and set up surely 100% of the time. gorebyss and smeargle are probably better BP, but this doesn't means that ninjask is useless, smeargle is ouspeeded and it being useless if taunted, while ninjask is hard to outspeed. gorebyss is good on rain team but sun ruines him, while ninjask isn't as dipendent by weather. instead, without RS support ninjask is crippled by SR, gorebyss and smeargle does not and is phazed more easy than georebyss and smeargle. I'm not saying that ninjask is better of gorebyss or gorebyss is better than ninjask, i'm just saying that ninjask is not completely useless or outclassed by them
 
Furai said:
Give us some real calcs against Dialga, Giratina-o, Giratina, Skarmory, Groudon, Arceus, Lugia etc etc.
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Giratina, Dialga, Groudon and Lugia can phaze, Arceus and Giratina-O kill Ninjask and Gorebyss easily with priority, and Skarmory isn't touched by any not-really-strong special attack
Braseg257 said:
I don't think gorebyss can set up against phazers like lugia and giratina, and i don't think it can OHKO them too (without boosts). personally, I'd never use a baton passer against giratina or lugia, but I'd send it against something that must switch out, like mewtwo or darkrai in case of ninjask, to force the opponent to switch, just because only a stupid wants to loose a sweeper against a baton passer and let him set-up. the problem is not how good a baton passer is, but how good is your abilty to use them correctly and set-up in the right moment. each pokemon has got its weaknesses, ninjask has got 4x to stealth rock, gorebyss has the weakness that can't come in safely without the risk to be koed or phazed away, because it can't come in with giratina or mewtwo and set up surely 100% of the time. gorebyss and smeargle are probably better BP, but this doesn't means that ninjask is useless, smeargle is ouspeeded and it being useless if taunted, while ninjask is hard to outspeed. gorebyss is good on rain team but sun ruines him, while ninjask isn't as dipendent by weather. instead, without RS support ninjask is crippled by SR, gorebyss and smeargle does not and is phazed more easy than georebyss and smeargle. I'm not saying that ninjask is better of gorebyss or gorebyss is better than ninjask, i'm just saying that ninjask is not completely useless or outclassed by them
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^ Exactly what i'm saying
 
Bruno Magno said:
Giratina, Dialga, Groudon and Lugia can phaze, Arceus and Giratina-O kill Ninjask and Gorebyss easily with priority, and Skarmory isn't touched by any not-really-strong special attack
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Thanks for summing up why Ninjask sucks man!

And Gorebyss isn't not OHKOed by Giratina-o's Shadow Sneak, OHKOs it, Giratina-o, Groudon, Lugia, and Skarmory. Arceus OHKOs both so it doesn't effect much the comparison.
 
+2 gorebyss can just 2HKO gira-O with a timid nature and 252 spA, while gira has a neutral nature 0 hp 0 spD. furthermore max spA modest nature giratina-O doesn't OHKO ninjask with 248 hp and 160 def, doing less than 50% damages
 
Never said that it OHKOs Ninjask. If LO ExtremeKiller cannot OHKO Ninjask, it's pretty damn obvious that Giratina-o won't. And have a look at this:

718 Atk vs 236 Def & 441 HP (95 Base Power): 414 - 488 (93.88% - 110.66%)

100% to OHKO with Stealth Rock damage. Timid has 87.18% to OHKO with Stealth Rock.


Ninjask is just not worth it, end of case.
 
i'm quite sure smeargle actually passes smashes, it's much more flexible, plus if you don't want the defensive boost you can always use white herb (although smeargle should be faster after a smash anyway to be able to pass immediately to kyogre etc who can tank the hit and sweep)

ninjask was cool last gen because it actually was better than smeargle iirc (who didn't have smash) but with smash now smeargle > jask
 
Ok if you think Smeargle passes Shift Gear more than Shell Smash then you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

I've seen enough of your arguments now, and they are nowhere near close to good enough.

QC Rejected: 1/3
 
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