Ninetales (UU Bulky Calm Mind)

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FlareBlitz

Relaxed nature. Loves to eat.
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I looked at the current on-site analysis and I noticed that there was no mention of what is arguably Ninetales' best role: a bulky CM sweeper.

Ninetales' analysis page is here, for reference: http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/ninetales

[SET]
Name: Bulky Fox
Move 1: Calm Mind
Move 2: Flamethrower
Move 3: Pain Split
Move 4: Energy Ball / HP Rock / Substitute
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Timid
EVs: 72 HP / 164 SpA / 56 SpD / 216 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
-The idea is to switch in, set up Calm Minds, Pain Split when you're low on health, and hopefully do a lot of damage to your opponent's team
-Hard counters Moltres, a highly threatening pokemon offense has trouble switching into
-Counters/checks a large number of other dangerous Pokemon (Rotom, Magmortar, specially-based Venusaur, specially-based Sceptile, some Arcanine)
-Can set up on/beat specially-based bulky waters without Haze or (if no substitute) Toxic.
-Does extremely well against Sunny Day
-Currently no similar sets on-site

Additional Comments:
-Toxic can go in the last slot to beat Haze Milotic and cripple physically-oriented bulky waters (azumarill), Hypnosis can also go in there for similar reasons
-Can use Life Orb; lets you 2hko Bold Milotic with Energy Ball after a CM boost
-Choice of last move can greatly affect how this set plays...it can either be a hard counter to nearly every fire type or an efficient bulky water lure

Teammates and Counters:
-Pairs well with Pokemon who enjoy dead bulky waters or dead fire types and can complete the FWG core (Feraligatr, Venusaur, Torterra, Azumarill)
-Physically bulky pokes that provide resistances to Ground and/or Rock are useful (Torterra, Claydol)
-Enjoys Toxic Spikes support, but good luck keeping 'em down with venuwhore
-Counters greatly depend on 4th moveslot choice; Haze Milotic, Chansey, Azumarill all usually do fine, but can sometimes be beaten if Ninetales is tailored to do so

Note: I have playtested this set and all its options extensively (except for Toxic in the 4th slot, that idea came to me as I was writing this). It does what it is supposed to extremely well. It's not on the team I used to get to the top of the ladder, but it's worked out very well whenever I take it around on my alts.

This is my first time posting a set here so if there are any issues with my format or whatever let me know ^^
 
Good analysis. It'll probably be nice if you can explain the EV spread though (220 Speed seems odd to me, you only need 216 to outspeed Base 95s).
 
Great writeup Flare. I think Toxic deserves to be slashed for the last slot, as it allows Ninetales to beat Bulky Waters as well as Offensive Fire types, seeing as it can just keep Calm Minding until Toxic takes its toll.
 
Shrang, 220 is required to outrun base 95s if you're using HP Rock. If not it helps to outspeed things like 176 SPE Missy and stuff. And thanks IB. I would have slashed in Toxic but it was getting kinda slashitis-y, so...if enough people want it slashed in I will.
 
Pretesting notes:

- Extremely vulnerable to the one thing that destroys all CMers: status.

- Bulky Waters without status = uhh....none?

- Very limited two-move coverage unlike Raikou and Mismagius. You need to pick whether you lose vs Moltres or vs Milotic. You can still lose to both depending on their set (SubStall and Haze respectively).

Will test soon.
 
I did mention your notes in my original post already. Your 4th moveslot can serve to alleviate some of the weaknesses in the set. It's really going to depend on your team which move you choose; substitute is useful if you don't care about FF pokes, for instance, and Life Orb can be used to quickly end Haze Milotic at the expense of general survivability.
 
Very well...let me know how your playtesting goes. If you need me to I can post my own logs as well.
 
FlareBlitz said:
Very well...let me know how your playtesting goes. If you need me to I can post my own logs as well.
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Alright so I tested this set and had the worst laddering experience of my life (ask thund about it -________-...nothing is worse then both gimmicks and hax at the same time) not really due to Ninetales though.

Anyway, every match I used it I really felt..well..weak. I don't like the set at all...it has horrific four moveslot syndrome, can't even OHKO Blaziken at +6, and is easily revenged. It either creates and easy switch-in for Fire-types or Water-types (and still Fire-types beat it with HP Rock due to Ninetales being so weak). I tried covering every dangerous status with two Ground-types and a Poison-type, but it eventually came down to this: the things toxicing me were the things I needed Ninetales to deal with (Articuno, Moltres, etc). I couldn't just set up with Toxic on because Ninetales still has a SpA stat of 5 with a couple Calm Mind boosts and still can't get anything done. I literally lost some matches just because Ninetales didn't have enough power to deal with the Pokemon coming in (and I know I should have most things covered, but the truth is that I did but the opponent (purposely or not) kept abusing Ninetales lack of ability to hurt anything).

That said I'm not going to reject the set. Ninetales killed a Pokemon and "maimed" another at least half of the 20 matches I played. It wasn't a liability. It just wasn't "as good" as Houndoom, but then again it's used differently and I think it's just my playstyle that really limited the usefulness of the set.

So I want to be covinced! Post logs etc.
 
Unfortunately I don't save logs that often, and the ones I do save are the "good" matches so it'll probably be kinda biased towards my side. Really the only thing I can say is ask the 5 or 6 people that watch me use it (like whoostle or thund or or shace or someone), or ask any of the guys I beat with it. Like yesterday I beat MS' stall team with it single-handedly but that was mostly because he didn't know it had Pain Split (so he switched in Chansey and tried to SToss me to death while I got to +4 and then I just pain split on it, which was basically gg).

Primarily I use Ninetales to nab an FF boost from Moltres, CM on the Air Slash, and then Pain Split on the bulky water switch in, which puts me in a very nice position. I think team support is pretty important though; you need something to absorb Toxic and, to a lesser extent, Thunderwave. I use Toxicroak and Rhyperior myself. While SubRoost moltres does give you issues if you don't run HP Rock, I've been testing the set with HP Rock recently and it actually works out pretty well as a solid catch-all fire type counter, but obviously it doesn't do as well against Milotic (although at +6 you 2hko the ones not running any special defense with flamethrower, but you need to proc the burn to 2hko the more specially defensive ones).

I don't know where you get that fire types can beat this with HP Rock though. Even +6 Houndoom doesn't ohko you with HP Rock if you're at +3 or more, while you outspeed and 2hko with energy ball. No other fire type even stands a chance of beating you, especially if you run HP Rock yourself.

The primary way this differentiates itself from houndoom is its surprising bulk. For instance, it can live through Azumarill's CB Aqua Jet and do ~70% to it. It doesn't care about Venusaur's sludge bomb and can survive even LO Earthquake from max attack variants, while ohkoing back at +1.

I never bring out Ninetales until I know the opponent's team and unless things like Azumarill and Registeel are in kill range. It's kinda like Jynx, where bringing it out too early basically means it's not going to do anything useful.

I'll try to play more today and get some logs for you, but I don't have a lot of free time on weekends, so we'll see.
 
I'm not part of QC or well respected but I may as well throw in my 2 cents. Bulky CM Ninetail is actually pretty darn awesome. Keep in mind, I haven't used it but I was bystander for all of Flare's matches and it rarely failed to impress.Really, the bulk does it for me and the ability to freely set up on Moltres. It's also slightly harder to remove from the match. Suddenly that Blastoise you saved for your opponents fire types can't really do much to your Ninetails.

If your busy Flareblitz, I can help you with the logs.

Edit: I haven't used it yet, but perhaps running both Energy ball / HP rock might help you out. Obviously you lose healing but... It's still an option nevertheless.
 
I'm actually running HP Electric now. It's working out pretty well; hits Milo SE and hits all fire types (except camerupt >_>;;) for neutral damage and even beats Moltres way easier.
 
Well, i think i can safely say that i know for a fact this set is completely viable. I've tested it myself and I've seen flare use it to success in numerous battles(sadly i haven't saved any logs). Yes, it has 4 slot move syndrome but being able to beat milo and many fire types it does well. It's bulk is underestimated heavily in many of the matches I've played, and i always take out 2-3 pokes if i bring it in correctly. It's a great set honestly and always does it's job for me.
 
Like yesterday I beat MS' stall team with it single-handedly but that was mostly because he didn't know it had Pain Split (so he switched in Chansey and tried to SToss me to death while I got to +4 and then I just pain split on it, which was basically gg).
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Quoting for agreement, I was pretty much in control until Flare pulled that bastard out >.<. I guess it's the kind of pokemon that can't be thrown onto just any team but with the right support I think it is most definitely a viable set. What do you prefer in the 4th slot Flare?
 
Shace said:
Well, i think i can safely say that i know for a fact this set is completely viable. I've tested it myself and I've seen flare use it to success in numerous battles(sadly i haven't saved any logs). Yes, it has 4 slot move syndrome but being able to beat milo and many fire types it does well. It's bulk is underestimated heavily in many of the matches I've played, and i always take out 2-3 pokes if i bring it in correctly. It's a great set honestly and always does it's job for me.
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FlareBlitz said:
Unfortunately I don't save logs that often, and the ones I do save are the "good" matches so it'll probably be kinda biased towards my side. Really the only thing I can say is ask the 5 or 6 people that watch me use it (like whoostle or thund or or shace or someone), or ask any of the guys I beat with it. Like yesterday I beat MS' stall team with it single-handedly but that was mostly because he didn't know it had Pain Split (so he switched in Chansey and tried to SToss me to death while I got to +4 and then I just pain split on it, which was basically gg).

The primary way this differentiates itself from houndoom is its surprising bulk.
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A set relying on surprise and the like isn't exactly the type of set that I would really recommend and approve for QC. This set isn't like that, but I think you should refocus on what it does assuming people "know" it exists.

FlareBlitz said:
Primarily I use Ninetales to nab an FF boost from Moltres, CM on the Air Slash, and then Pain Split on the bulky water switch in, which puts me in a very nice position. I think team support is pretty important though; you need something to absorb Toxic and, to a lesser extent, Thunderwave. I use Toxicroak and Rhyperior myself. While SubRoost moltres does give you issues if you don't run HP Rock, I've been testing the set with HP Rock recently and it actually works out pretty well as a solid catch-all fire type counter, but obviously it doesn't do as well against Milotic (although at +6 you 2hko the ones not running any special defense with flamethrower, but you need to proc the burn to 2hko the more specially defensive ones).
Click to expand...

This is the one part I enjoyed about the Ninetales. However the one time I was about ready to simply reject this set was when an opposing Moltres survived HP Rock and hit me with Toxic. An LO one even survived and hit me with Air Slash (it still does a hefty amount even though Ninetales has good SpD). My general complaint about the set is its weakness.
FlareBlitz said:
I don't know where you get that fire types can beat this with HP Rock though. Even +6 Houndoom doesn't ohko you with HP Rock if you're at +3 or more, while you outspeed and 2hko with energy ball. No other fire type even stands a chance of beating you, especially if you run HP Rock yourself.
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It was physical Houndoom and, of course, none other than Blaziken came into Ninetales and OHKOed me with Superpower after setting up 5 Calm Minds. Flamethrower did like 85%.....that's not good.

FlareBlitz said:
I never bring out Ninetales until I know the opponent's team and unless things like Azumarill and Registeel are in kill range. It's kinda like Jynx, where bringing it out too early basically means it's not going to do anything useful.

For instance, it can live through Azumarill's CB Aqua Jet and do ~70% to it. It doesn't care about Venusaur's sludge bomb and can survive even LO Earthquake from max attack variants, while ohkoing back at +1.
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I had to change my lead to something with Taunt and the like because I realized Stealth Rock really hinders this set because you're going to get destroyed by the things that you generally should be able to barely survive and beat (Azu Ajet, Houndoom Sucker Punch, Venusaur EQ, etc).

This should definitely be in the analysis.

FlareBlitz said:
I'll try to play more today and get some logs for you, but I don't have a lot of free time on weekends, so we'll see.
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No rush, need to wait for the other QC members to test too :P
 
tested this today. the main issue is that it is weak as hell and has coverage issues, which means many things that are not normally Ninetales counters (e.g. if you have HP Rock on this set, Rhyperior) suddenly counter it. generally this set only works when (1) the opponent's team is Ninetales/Fire weak to the point where an ordinary NP + 3 Attack would easily sweep, whether because it was built badly or because it was weakened by smart playing or (2) the opponent misplays by letting Ninetales set up when they have a check/counter waiting (most checks/counters to this stop working when Ninetales is at +6 because of its vulnerability when it doesn't have as many boosts).

that said, this isn't a flat-out no from me, but only because I've seen this set perform somewhat successfully at times (basically just from Flare). I'm still not convinced it should get written up though; there's lots of Pokemon with random sets that work conditionally and are decent when used by good players, but are too team-specific or metagame-specific to go on-site.

fun stuff that happened (mostly just posting them cause they're funny not because they're really reasons to reject the set):
- Charizard 2HKOing with Air Slash and being faster (FUCK base 100)
- Moltres 2HKOing with Air Slash because it only took 74% from HP Rock (-.-)
- Houndoom 2HKOing with LO Crunch because it did 65% on the switch (who the hell uses this anyways)
 
With the exception of the EV spread I can vouch for this set. I went for a more offensive set since the main goal in mind for me was to setup 1 Calm Mind to prevent the O-2HKO from Milo and continue setting up. Most fire-types with the exception of Blaziken will have trouble dealing with this set as well. Safeguard DD Altaria could be mentioned as a supporting Pokemon to this set. Although I haven't personally tried it it seems that it would be effective.
 
Not a QC member but I tried this set as well when Thund told me about it. I'm sure you're successful with this set but I just can't get it to work for the reasons stated: 1) too weak 2) coverage issues. My only suggestion to patch up the former issue is to slash in Nasty Plot to give yourself the extra oomph to deal damage to stuff. I've tested Nasty Plot > Calm Mind before and while you miss out on the Special Defense boost but you gain more firepower. This helped me overcome stuff like Houndoom and Milotic (provided Stealth Rock is in play).

Code: 
Calm Mind vs Houndoom - 58.2% - 69.2%
Nasty Plot vs Houndoom - 77.4% - 91.8%

Calm Mind vs Bold Milotic - 34.1% - 40.2%
Nasty Plot vs Bold Milotic - 45.3% - 53.4%
My other suggestion is to add Rapid Spinners. Pure Fire-typing and an unreliable recovery move to recover from the Stealth Rock loss is difficult. To make things easier, a spinner would be nice to switch into stuff and set up Calm Mind. Give Spikes a slight mention as well since most of Ninetales counters are grounded and it could help you place her counters in OHKO or 2HKO range.
 
Hmm. Thanks for your input guys. I've talked to a few people and reworked the EV spread a bit to make it less bulky, stronger, and make it so it recovers more HP from Pain Split. I also use HP Electric pretty much all the time now since it gets the best neutral coverage with flamethrower. If it ends up working better I'll edit my first post with the new spread.
 
I used this set as a loltest for my newer UU team and it sucked ass. So damn weak and I would use Houndoom over this any day of the week. Sorry, definitely gets a no from me.
 
Yeah I just wanted to test the new one extensively first, I really like how it's working so I'll update it right now. Edit: Okay new set edited into the OP. It actually doesn't lose that much bulk surprisingly just because the increased HP from Pain Split and the increased SDEF from calm mind boosts makes up for it. Removed Houndoom since this set no longer counters it.
 
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I will finally approve this. I can't really reject this set knowing that it does usually at least get one KO or whatever in a match, and Calm Mind does set up on Milotic and others, so it's different enough from Nasty Plot. It's just not Houndoom, that's why I was having trouble using it.
 
Yeah, I tried this and was kind of underwhelmed. Vulnerable to paralysis especially, and for some reason I never lured in any bulky Waters or Moltres, for that matter (I'm not sure if I should be surprised, since neither does too well against NP Ninetales anyway). It's also pretty weak, just as everyone has said. I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt for the moment, though, as I believe it would fare better against defensive / stall teams, which seem to be scarce, especially on the ladder, and in most other cases, Houndoom would be preferable.
 
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