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To separate discussion of the new tier from the discussion about deciding how to create it, I'm creating a new thread. The rest of the OP is just copied from the other thread.
After almost 3 months of discussion and a lot of UU games, the new GSC NU tier list has finally been decided. The following Pokemon are banned from the new NU tier:
Comparing with the previous GSC NU tier, that means the following changes have occurred: Now banned:
Now unbanned:
*
The Pokemon that stand out as the biggest threats and strongest Pokemon in general in this new tier are probably Raichu, Feraligatr, and Poliwrath. Raichu has a bunch of moveset illegalities though, notably:
Code:
Encore + Sing
Present + Sing
Reversal + Sing
Encore + Surf
Present + Surf
Reversal + Surf
Charm + Surf
Encore + Submission
Encore + Seismic Toss
Encore + Reflect
Encore + Substitute
Present + Seismic Toss
Present + Reflect
Present + Substitute
Reversal + Substitute
Charm + Submission
Charm + Seismic Toss
Charm + Reflect
Charm + Substitute
I am also expecting quite a few of the old GSC NU mainstays like Octillery, Shuckle, Tangela, Graveler, Fearow, Pidgeot, Hitmontop, Lickitung, Sudowoodo, Pineco etc to be viable in this tier. It will be interesting to see what kinds of strategies develop.
Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread and also to everyone who helped to shape the GSC UU VR, which helped to ensure that the new GSC NU tier was created through a proper process.
With Haunter banned, to which degree can Gastly fill the same role? It has the same useful typing and movepool, just lower stats. Does the Normal immunity and decent Special attacking power give it a niche, or is it simply too frail?
With Haunter banned, to which degree can Gastly fill the same role? It has the same useful typing and movepool, just lower stats. Does the Normal immunity and decent Special attacking power give it a niche, or is it simply too frail?
Gastly is remarkably undifferent to Haunter. The loss of 15 base speed is what hurts it the most in my opinion, since the 90-100 base speed area is heavily populated in NU. However, it certainly still functions, and I am sure it will appear somewhere on the VR when the tier is developed enough to have one.
Primeape is really surprising me with how strong it is. The high CH rate on Cross Chop and speed tie with Xatu + Rock Slide does it a lot of favours. I like using it with Miracle Berry, but I'm not sure what the best set on it is yet. I've tried Endure Reversal as well as Meditate Double-Edge.
If you don't have a Sudowoodo or a Graveler, Berserk Gene Fearow is absolutely terrifying to the extent of being ridiculous.
Screech Dugtrio has also surprised me with how effective it can be, especially with Spikes. As long as it doesn't take Surf from Raichu on the switch.
Raichu is probably the best candidate for #1/most centralising Pokemon in the tier at this point, by virtue of the lack of safe switch-ins. It is driving up the importance of Grass-types in the meta considerably. However, it is far from mandatory.
Poliwrath has been decidedly underwhelming, although that is maybe partly owed to being on everyone's radar as something to look out for. Feraligatr also has no problems tanking anything at +6 and Roaring it away.
Due to the fast pace and high power of many offensive teams, defensive Restalkers are out of fashion, which has led to a lot of Toxic usage (mostly on Feraligatr, Sunflora, Pineco, but also on a great variety of other Pokemon at times). Spikes is also very popular.
All of this is still based on a relatively small base of players and games. I expect a lot to change when there's a tournament / ladder for the tier, provided there is enough participation. In the meantime, if anyone sees me online in the RoA room, I am always happy to play GSC NU, just PM me.
Sunflora is a good answer to raichu imo. I've seen it in action and switching into it countless times. Has a reliable recovery move as well in synthesis and can status anything on switch out for further punishing.
I have struggled because my team building only took electric immunity into consideration. However treating the likes of raichu and pika like other electrics is wrong because they happen to make the obvious (switch to ground) answer unviable due to powerful coverage in surf. That's why electric resists are important.
Sunflora is a good answer to raichu imo. I've seen it in action and switching into it countless times. Has a reliable recovery move as well in synthesis and can status anything on switch out for further punishing.
I have struggled because my team building only took electric immunity into consideration. However treating the likes of raichu and pika like other electrics is wrong because they happen to make the obvious (switch to ground) answer unviable due to powerful coverage in surf. That's why electric resists are important.
Sunflora is probably the most reliable counter, but in terms of doing anything against the Pokemon that come in against it, it's one of the worst Grass-types.
I made a fairly comprehensive table to compare all the Grass-types (although move combo illegalities are not represented and definitely exist):
Specifically the lack of sleep/paralysis options on Sunflora leaves it almost entirely helpless against what is probably the #2 or #3 in the tier, Weezing. For that reason, Parasect or one of the pre-evos might work better if you want your Sunflora to do more than just tank hits (although on a more defensively aligned team that might be good enough). Tangela is also pretty good and has very good physical def if you are not afraid of HP Ice Raichu. I would probably not want it to be my only Raichu answer though. That said, Growth Sunflora or Sunny Day Sunflora can prove to be a legitimate threat once Weezing, Fearow, Flareon etc are out of the way.
I have personally preferred to avoid using Grass-types altogether on non-stall teams. All of the Hitmons have high SpD stats, so Restalk allows them to switch in once or twice if Thunder misses, and Raichu definitely doesn't like to tank HJKs. Dugtrio is pretty good against it if you don't stack Electric-weaks (and can therefore more realistically "force" it to use Thunder through threatening it in return), and TWave Raichu is great for paralysing enemy Raichu which shuts it down pretty hard.
Sunflora is probably the most reliable counter, but in terms of doing anything against the Pokemon that come in against it, it's one of the worst Grass-types.
I made a fairly comprehensive table to compare all the Grass-types (although move combo illegalities are not represented and definitely exist):
Specifically the lack of sleep/paralysis options on Sunflora leaves it almost entirely helpless against what is probably the #2 or #3 in the tier, Weezing. For that reason, Parasect or one of the pre-evos might work better if you want your Sunflora to do more than just tank hits (although on a more defensively aligned team that might be good enough). Tangela is also pretty good and has very good physical def if you are not afraid of HP Ice Raichu. I would probably not want it to be my only Raichu answer though. That said, Growth Sunflora or Sunny Day Sunflora can prove to be a legitimate threat once Weezing, Fearow, Flareon etc are out of the way.
I have personally preferred to avoid using Grass-types altogether on non-stall teams. All of the Hitmons have high SpD stats, so Restalk allows them to switch in once or twice if Thunder misses, and Raichu definitely doesn't like to tank HJKs. Dugtrio is pretty good against it if you don't stack Electric-weaks (and can therefore more realistically "force" it to use Thunder through threatening it in return), and TWave Raichu is great for paralysing enemy Raichu which shuts it down pretty hard.
With my GSC NU tournament starting shortly (signups here) I thought it would be helpful and encourage participation if I posted some sample sets for the top Pokemon that I have used or seen used in casual games and/or on the ladder.
The top 3 Pokemon in this tier are almost certainly Raichu, Feraligatr, and Weezing, although it is not super clear which is the best of the three. Raichu is pretty mediocre defensively. A lot of the Pokemon in the tier can 3HKO it. However, it usually outspeeds and 2 or 3HKOs in return.
Raichu @ Leftovers
- Thunder
- Surf
- Thunder Wave / Hidden Power Ice
- Substitute / Hidden Power Ice
This is a generic attacking Raichu. It is pretty great at spreading paralysis and dishing out damage to just about anything that is not an opposing Raichu / Grass-type. Thunder Wave is especially good for enemy Raichu, however you probably don't want to damage them with your Raichu and let them Rest. Substitute is useful against Pokemon that want to status you or explode on you.
This is the most consistent and resilient defensive Raichu set. Very little walls it, it doesn't care too much about status, and it is probably the best set for taking on enemy Raichu. However, it is fearful of Dugtrio and is worse off against Fire-types, which are common.
RestTalk Feraligatr is very good against a lot of offensive Pokemon. It is very tanky and shuts down a lot of physical attackers quite well by outlasting them. It can also use HP Electric over Toxic to beat enemy RestTalk Feraligatr, but this will make it significantly worse against a lot of Pokemon.
Feraligatr @ Leftovers
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power Electric
- Earthquake
Four attacks Feraligatr is very hard to switch into safely, but it's susceptible to status.
This is one variant of Curse Feraligatr. There are a lot of possible variants, such as Curse + Roar and Curse + Rest. This set has problems dealing with Pokemon that use Thunder though, such as unparalysed Raichu, Weezing, etc.
Weezing is very powerful and fantastic defensively. It is the main reason that Primeape is not completely busted. It is very easy to fit onto any team.
After those clear cut top 3 Pokemon, there are a lot of Pokemon which are worth using. I will list sets for some of them in hide tags.
Primeape @ Leftovers
- Cross Chop
- Rock Slide
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Primeape is very powerful even without any form of boosts. Cross Chop destroys anything that doesn't resist it, and critical hits can straight up OHKO things. Rock Slide hits Xatu and Bug-types and has a nice flinch chance. This set can go toe-to-toe with RestTalk Feraligatr while simultaneously providing powerful offence. It is kind of frail and will need a miracle to get through Weezing though.
Primeape @ Leftovers / Miracle Berry
- Meditate
- Cross Chop
- Rock Slide
- Body Slam / Double-Edge / Seismic Toss
+1 Primeape is even scarier than +0 Primeape!
Primeape @ Miracle Berry
- Cross Chop
- Rock Slide
- Endure
- Reversal
Endure on Weezing's Explosion and then go to town. A lot of dudes outspeed it though.
Normal, fire, and poison resist all in one tree thing. It does not hit that hard without pressing Selfdestruct, but it fulfils its role well enough anyway.
Four attacks Fearow with Miracle Berry (or Leftovers) for more consistency or Berserk Gene to attempt to blow holes in things. Miracle Berry Fearow can also receive a Berserk Gene boost from a Baton Passer.
Wigglytuff @ Leftovers
- Curse
- Body Slam / Double-Edge
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
Curse Talking Wigglytuff. Useful even just to tank strong special attacks once or twice, and can also sweep unprepared opponents. With enough lucky Sleep Talk rolls, it can get past many of its unfavourable matchups.
This is similar to the above set but it can notably paralyse Gastly and beat Shuckle. Its damage output is also more consistent and dangerous for Pokemon like Weezing and Sudowoodo which have very high Defense stats. However, it plays more of a support role than the above set. There are more options in Wigglytuff's movepool than I have listed here.
GrowthPass Flareon. There are quite a lot of Pokemon which can 2HKO Flareon but there are also a lot of viable Pokemon that can't do much to it. There are several very scary recipients in the tier, particularly Surf Raichu, Feraligatr/Golduck with triple special attacks, Gastly, Xatu, etc. Flareon also does a lot of damage itself, which can make phazing it a scary prospect, although Ninetales or a Roar Flareon tends to be at least somewhat safe.
Ninetales @ Leftovers
- Fire Blast
- Toxic
- Roar
- Protect / Hypnosis / Confuse Ray / Sunny Day
Thanks to the way Toxic works with switching in GSC, this phazing set can cause defensive teams a lot of issues. Sunny Day is very annoying for Thunder Surf Raichu and weakens Feraligatr.
Ninetales @ Leftovers
- Sunny Day
- Fire Blast / Flamethrower
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
This set can be very annoying for teams that forgo a Rest Water-type or a Rest Fire-type. Sunny Day is not wasted if it is selected during harsh sunlight in GSC, it resets the duration to 5 turns again.
Dugtrio is a major threat to Raichu and is also annoying for Weezing and Fire-types. Rest Talk Feraligatr handles Substitute variants pretty safely, but Screech poses a problem, especially since Dugtrio can take a Surf from it from full HP.
Pineco is a lot better than Delibird and Spikes are really useful. Pineco can actually take a few attacks in this tier so it can potentially trade for something with Explosion. This increases the need for a Normal resistance/immunity a lot.
Magmar
- Fire Blast
- Thunderpunch
- Cross Chop
- Thief
While it is unfortunate that Gastly is slower than Haunter was, it is still a pretty decent Pokemon with a threatening Explosion.
There are many more viable Pokemon than just the above in the tier, and also there are more sets that are viable aside from the ones I've posted. I am hoping people get creative with the tier so I am not posting any of my teams.
I hope to see you all in the tournament, and don't forget that GSC NU is the monthly ladder!
Played a bit of this tier and i'm enjoying myself a lot, especially because of the very small viable list (20-25 mons)
Looking format to the tour and the future of the format, hopefully it'll rotate in more
after messing with this a good amount in the last few days, I just wanna leave it here that I think Raichu definetly sticks out as the most dominant and splashable pokemon in the tier and probably deserve S Rank once viablity rankings are properly set up. It covers a suprising amount of stuff defensively with the resttalk set, offensive twave is obviously nice for offense as long as they have some sort of dugtrio switch in.
Weezing and especially Meditate Primeape are also amazing, weezing basically being the perfect partner for pika since it switches into every grass type easily and can either snatch a poison on a rock or just straight up steamroll w curse, whereas Primeape (I'm using HP Ground as the 4th move, which does a good job at beating down especially weezing and not having to miss against gastly and such) puts on a lot of offensive pressure most of the time.
So far the meta seems great and I'm kidna hype to continue playing it
Oh man, I researched GSC NU a lot a while ago. Glad to see it's being brought up again, gotta love a meta where Magmar is a thing.
And yeah as everyone else has said, Raichu is nutty in this tier. Not many Pokemon really have the movepools to stand up to it, and if they do, they can usually get hit with Surf right after. I guess a HP Ground Grass Type could work(?), but that's a bit overkill and a testament to how strong it is...
Just tried out GSC NU for the first time today! Seems pretty fun! Where do you guys suppose Machoke sits in the tier? I was thinking of trying like a Curselax surrogate of some kind. Like Granbull, Furret, or Machoke
Just tried out GSC NU for the first time today! Seems pretty fun! Where do you guys suppose Machoke sits in the tier? I was thinking of trying like a Curselax surrogate of some kind. Like Granbull, Furret, or Machoke
There are many much better fightings in the tier like Primeape and Hitmonlee, as well as Hitmonchan and the oddball Poliwrath, currently machoke isn't even NU, it's PUBL
You could use him but i don't see why you wouldn't use one of the above
If you're thinking of a curselax of some sorts, the hitmons have curse so...
I'd rank him C+ at best, probably C
Machoke does have a unique set of characteristics in 100 base Atk Cross Chop + EQ coverage for Weezing. The only other Fighting type with EQ is Poliwrath which has lower Atk and no great Fight STAB. However, in practice Machoke's Speed and defensive stats are too low for it to be a great Pokemon in the meta.
There are many much better fightings in the tier like Primeape and Hitmonlee, as well as Hitmonchan and the oddball Poliwrath, currently machoke isn't even NU, it's PUBL
You could use him but i don't see why you wouldn't use one of the above
If you're thinking of a curselax of some sorts, the hitmons have curse so...
I'd rank him C+ at best, probably C
Machoke does have a unique set of characteristics in 100 base Atk Cross Chop + EQ coverage for Weezing. The only other Fighting type with EQ is Poliwrath which has lower Atk and no great Fight STAB. However, in practice Machoke's Speed and defensive stats are too low for it to be a great Pokemon in the meta.
Ahh, I see! Machoke's speed and defensive stats are pretty low, huh. Most of the other fighting types are stronger speed and defense wise. Hmm. Good to know.
Haven't played since the tier shift, first impressions:
-Raichu is definitely a top mon, combination of Speed and coverage makes it scary. I personally find it hard not to use RestTalk because its really good at checking itself and its difficult to check it reliably otherwise without using Grass-types (which are kinda lame here). Rest also gives Raichu some protection against getting paralyzed, and having your Raichu paralyzed against Feraligatr or Poliwrath (or even Golduck) is potentially very bad.
-Feraligatr is extremely good due to its combination of bulk and coverage. 4 Atks + Spikes is incredibly annoying to switch into. Golduck is also remarkably annoying due to having a sleep move and a much stronger Hydro Pump - its Hydro reliably 2HKOes Raichu with Spikes down and its tanky enough to survive Thunder. Haven't seen Poliwrath yet but I imagine Belly Drum is a huge threat on a para-focused team, and it has the bulk to check Dugtrio just fine.
-Dugtrio is still awesome, has a more reliable check in Feraligatr but it's still the fastest mon in the tier and the best offensive Raichu check. Using Sudowoodo as a partner with it to bait and explode on Waters is pretty effective.
-Fearow is still dangerous enough to want to use a Normal resist, Pink Bow Double-Edges hurt.
-Hitmonlee is probably the best Spinner since it outspeeds Gastly, useful if you have trouble handling Spikes.
I almost feel the top Water-types (4 Atks/Curse Feraligatr, Hypnosis + 3 Atks Golduck, Drum Poliwrath) are bigger threats than Raichu, mostly because they all become terrifying when Raichu is paralyzed or killed and the options for Grass-types kind of suck and just give dangerous things like Weezing and Fearow free turns. Raichu also isn't THAT tanky and an errant crit can often spell its doom when trying to come in on one of the Waters.
Also to note:
Resttalk raichu can run hp ground as raichu stall wars happen most games, it does 41% at minimum
Resttalk feraligatr (my fav set) can instead run HP grass, as it checks itself and golduck better while having a better dugtrio matchup than HP electric
Been enjoying this new meta a lot. I agree with most what Feliburn already said, although i feel Gatr might already be worth looking at (not sure if that's too soon). At first I thought giving up a slot for Spikes (Pineco) was a waste but it definitely helps breaking down the top mons in the tier. You definitely want to have a Normal resist and something that takes on Ground- and Rock types cause after enough pressure, Rock Slide + Earthquake can be difficult to check. I like Graveler atm for the better Raichu matchup and its great offensive typing than say Sudowoodo. 2 mons I've been liking a lot so far are Xatu and Lickitung. Psychic STAB is very good in GSC NU and Xatu has great stats, typing and has some cool tools like Thief and Night Shade. Lickitung gets SD, Earthquake, amazing for a Normal-type, and its bulk serves as a blanket check to a plethora of mons. This is the team I've been using so far. Maybe sample-worthy but not sure if Gatr is gonna stay.
feraligatr is really good lol. given how evs work this gen it functions as a check to a lot of the annoying ground- and rock-types (ofc you have to watch out for a boom though) even with the 4 atks set, although ive personally enjoyed resttalk sets the most.
raichu is less good than i had anticipated, but that's probably because i run resttalk raichu on every team of mine so . i prefer surf > stoss because fuck ground-types trying to get cheeky on me, but i see the appeal in the latter.
curse weezing is cool on paper but has done nothing in any of my games ngl. its a fight resist though so it still is rly useful for checking primeape and friends.
grass types in this tier are eh. ive used tangela some and it was fine, and ive also seen some parasect and iirc sunflora? idk the main issue for grass-types this gen honestly is hp grass being ur strongest stab move... theyre nice for checking electrics and dugtrio tho so.
i think spikes are not very good. pineco is just not a great mon imo, although could be i need to mess around more with teammates. double phaze with like pineco + roar ninetales + roar gator sounds like itd work.
gastly is in fact not a haunter replacement.
it may just be me but i dont feel comfortable with a team that lacks multiple fighting resists. im paranoid af of hitmonlee and primeape lol. weezing + xatu is a cool defensive core that does a good job of checking them both.
https://pokepast.es/243663afdfe55097
yea this is poh's team with different sets lmao. we made the same original squad with diff sets and then he told me of a change he made (sudo > graveler) so i followed up. teams still have different sets ofc but yea.. as i said weezing + xatu is nice for covering the fighters in the tier. on paper team struggles with belly tap poliwrath, so could try roar > eq or whatever the other attacking move is that i have on gator lol.
I don't think Graveler necessarily has a better Raichu matchup because it gets OHKOed by Surf whereas Sudowoodo can take one, it is better against Surfless Raichus though. The main benefits I see Graveler having are a better Weezing MU (immune to Thunder and STAB EQ) and a stronger boom (it can KO Feraligatr at full HP unboosted whereas Sudowoodo misses it without a Curse boost).
I agree Xatu is pretty awesome. The only decent Psychic resist in this tier is itself so it has great damage output against most things and can get around some checks with things like SunnyBeam (trolls Raichu, ruins Waters and Rocks) or Night Shade (Shuckle).
I don't like Gastly at all compared to Haunter, being slower than Primeape and Hitmonlee hurts it too much as a Fighting check to make me want to use it. Best it can hope to do most games is Thief something and then blow up on something else. At least it's faster than Feraligatr.
Speaking of Feraligatr, I think the power of Raichu and the difficulty it has killing other Water-types (its raw SpA is not very good so its Hidden Power doesn't hurt much) keeps it from being broken, however I do think it's definitely a top-tier threat and its hard not to run it on most teams due to its bulk, the thing is a monster tank.
I don't think Curse is worth it on Weezing, it's plenty threatening enough just throwing out attacks. If you aren't sure what to do with that 4th slot (Sludge Bomb/Thunder/Boom are mandatory imo) Thief is potentially a good option for trolling other Weezings. Swiping Leftovers from the enemy Rock can also be nice for a Normal-type or Fearow.
*
. i prefer surf > stoss because fuck ground-types trying to get cheeky on me, but i see the appeal in the latter.