Announcement National Dex UU Suspect 2: Lucha Lucha (Hawlucha Suspect)

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N_Mareanie

N_Mareanie

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:SS/Hawlucha:

Hey everyone, the NatDex UU tiering council has decided to suspect test Hawlucha!

Suspect Test Reasoning

Hawlucha was one of the latest unbanned Pokémon alongside many others. Since then, it has already made its presence within the tier more than known to any player. Its good STAB combination, Flying + Fighting, allows it to hit nearly the entire tier for at least neutral damage (outside of Aegislash). This, alongside its boosting move in Swords Dance, makes finding defensive counterplay incredibly difficult. The ability Unburden supported with its natural high speed tier allows it to outspeed the entire tier after Unburden has been activated, meaning no offensive counterplay exists outside of priority. However, due to the boost the Terrain-seeds give, most common one being Grassy Seed giving +1 Defense, even priority doesn't do the trick unless Hawlucha is severely weakened.

It's not like Hawlucha lacks setup opportunities either. It can easily abuse common Pokemon like Krookodile, defensive Scizor, Weavile locked into a Dark move, or Tapu Bulu. This means Hawlucha can easily find setup opportunities in most games if played correctly, especially if you factor in the Defense boost it gets from activating the Terrain-seed.

However, Hawlucha does still have counterplay. Most defensive Psychics, such as Slowking, Mew and Reuniclus, can live a hit from full and threaten a KO. However, it's almost near impossible to keep these Pokémon at full health throughout the entirety of a game. Aegislash is a good check, but Taunt being a common 4th move on Hawlucha means Aegislash gets forced into its Sword-form quite easily and does not act as a great check any longer due to the fragile nature of this forme.

Suspect Test Information
  • **This is new to National Dex UU suspect tests** Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 76 with at least 40 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 76 GXE, down to a minimum of 20 games at a GXE of 80. Also, needing more than 40 games to reach 76 GXE will suffice.
  • GXEminimum games
    7640
    76.239
    76.438
    76.637
    76.836
    7735
    77.234
    77.433
    77.632
    77.831
    7830
    78.229
    78.428
    78.627
    78.826
    7925
    79.224
    79.423
    79.622
    79.821
    8020
  • You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NDUUL. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NDUUL N_Mareanie.
  • You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
  • If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. Manipulating voting requisites ranges from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
  • The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Hawlucha, will be allowed on the National Dex UU ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
  • This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until December the 15th at 11:59 PM GMT+1.
 
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Suspect Test Rules
  • You are required to make sure that whatever you are arguing for is in-line with the Tiering Policy Framework. If what you're arguing for isn't, there's a very high chance that your post will be deleted.
  • No uninformed one liners or posts;
  • No discussion on other potential suspect tests;
  • No discussion on the suspect test process.
  • Your posts are expected to be respectful, please do not insult anyone.
  • If you fail to follow these rules, you may be infracted without any prior warning.
If there are any questions, feel free to PM myself or Cold Apple Soda . If there are any questions about the moderation of this thread, you should feel free to PM the moderation team.
 
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ok sure i have never done one of these so warning its going to be bad

:ss/hawlucha:
ok so this mon is an absolute nightmare to face unless you are using curse brave bird skarmory or something like that, and tell me how the fuck are you fitting that thing in offense. it doesnt need to run any speed investment to outspeed almost the entire meta after unburden, meaning that it can just run max HP and with the +1 defense from grassy seed it can easiliy take most priority moves, so its impossible to outspeed and nearly impossible to revenge kill. the only real way to revenge it is by having it drop its own defenses with close combat or somehow chip it into range.

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 158-188 (44 - 52.3%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 136-162 (37.8 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

even if you are running a more defensive team with bulky mons, hawlucha can still mess you up and sweep with minor chip, since u cant whirlwind it out because of taunt, meaning that mons like hippowdon and non brave bird skarmory are just setup fodder. also, even if you have a curse brave bird skarmory (probably the best check in the tier) u can still lose the 1v1 vs lucha, since it sd's on the switch, and can easily take a brave bird and sd again and OHKO you thanks to brave bird recoil putting skarm out of sturdy. the same can happen if lucha taunts as you try to curse up. so yeah, the most consistent counter in the tier needs to win a 50/50 to actually beat lucha. how fun.

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +1 248 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 182-216 (50.6 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+4 252+ Atk Hawlucha Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 289-342 (86.5 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

now lets talk about aegislash, its inmune to cc, resists acrobatics, and can fit on more offensive teams, so why not-

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 116-137 (44.4 - 52.4%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO

ouch. and thats shield form so you are getting 2hkod unless ur KS. and even if u are KS, its another 50/50 because it can just sd in front of you as you KS. also unlike skarmory you have no reliable recovery outside of leftovers if you even are that set, and you are not killing hawlucha unless you are specs, and even then its a roll

252+ SpA Choice Specs Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 331-390 (92.2 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

and even then, you would still lose to psyseed lucha (which isnt nearly as good admitedly since u have to use unmon indeede, but its still an option), and specs aegi isnt common in the first place in my experience.

the conclusion is that you have to use multiple checs to hawlucha in a single team (aegi/skarm+sciz/weav to be sure you dont lose to it), meaning that building becomes extremely restricted, since you are forced to use 2 out of the very limited pool of lucha checks on every team, and keep them healthy enough to take on lucha in the endgame. I think its obvious by this point, but i will be voting BAN

(will edit if i find mistakes in this post btw)
 
Sadly I was too busy IRL to make a post or get reqs and voting appears to have started now but I'll make a post anyways. I don't want to rehash what I said in the UU Meta thread but equally I don't want this to be an empty post.

So basically, I realised only after the suspect started that this thing with taunt behind screens 1v1s every check it has, except for exceedingly janky stuff like max def Mental Herb Aegislash. Light Screen gets rid of the reason to run Spdef Seed Hawlucha as it achieves the same effect (while also surviving Future Sight from Slowking), while Reflect + Taunt lets it 1v1 Skarmory, Reuni and all the other otherwise solid checks to it, which was a very short list to begin with.

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha through Reflect: 91-108 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 50.8% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha through Reflect: 91-108 (30.6 - 36.3%) -- 50.8% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hawlucha through Light Screen: 186-220 (62.6 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Slowking Future Sight vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hawlucha through Light Screen: 186-220 (51.6 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Body Slam vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha through Reflect: 102-120 (28.3 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Body Slam vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha through Reflect: 102-120 (34.3 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Oh, and guess what? It's not like it loses to the other common checks either, because screens just let it outbulk all of them and Taunt lets it negate the status of whatever's trying to check it anyways. The one exception to this is PDef Body Slam Mega Altaria but you only have a 30% chance to not autolose and lucha eats anyways.

In short, besides the newly dropped Regieleki with scarf (which sounds like the definition of dogshit in literally every other MU) and exceedingly niche or otherwise unviable sets there are no reliable checks to this thing with Taunt behind screens. Your only hope is sweeping their team before it sweeps yours. Honestly we should have QBd this thing but hindsight is 20/20.

EDIT: and before anyone brings up nonsense like Grimmsnarl being the issue, first of all Hawlucha's easily banworthy even without screens and second of all Hawlucha is literally the only mon besides maybe Z Victini that's broken with screens support, and Grimm was more than fine pre unban wave. Evidently, Grimmsnarl is not the issue here, Hawlucha is.
 
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