Resource National Dex Ubers Viability Rankings [Update #9 at post 313!]

New update! :blobwizard:

:Basculegion: B- -> B
:Blissey: B- -> B
:Chi-Yu: C+ -> B-
:Landorus-Therian: C -> C+

:arceus-ground: A+ -> A
:arceus-water: A- -> B+
:gothitelle: A- -> B+
:salamence-Mega: A- -> B+
:Rayquaza: A- -> B+
:ditto: B+ -> B
:diancie-Mega: B -> B-
:Arceus-Ghost: B- -> C+
:Mewtwo-Mega-Y:B- -> C+
:Palkia-Origin: B -> C+
:Shuckle: C+ -> C
:Zekrom: C+ -> C
:Arceus-steel: C -> C-
:Cresselia: C -> C-
:Flutter Mane: C -> C-
:Iron-Treads: C -> C-
:Melmetal: C -> C-
:Arceus-Dragon: C- -> D
:Dialga: C -> D
:venusaur-mega: C -> UR

If you have any question (or spot any mistake), feel free to send me a message or contact Bobsican on Discord . Full slate here.
 
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So with NDPL and NDFL in the rear view mirror the time has come for another VR update! Figuring out how to appropriately weigh how these results should impact the VR has been a bit of a struggle. Personally I believe that offense was quite over represented in NDP/FL. Consequently, I do not think that some Pokemon such as Zacian-C and Arceus are quite as powerful as their results indicate (they are still very good). There is afterall a small sample size, and Zacian-C in particular has had a few wins due to dodging attacks which would KO. As usual, everything is ordered within subranks although most stuff in the lower C ranks is quite flexible. Also, these are my personal opinions, not those of the VR council.

S1:groudon-primal: |
S2:zygarde-complete:
S3:eternatus: | :ho-oh:
S4 :arceus-dark:(dark):marshadow:
S4:yveltal:|

A1:kyogre-primal::zacian-crowned::arceus-fairy:(fairy)
A2:giratina-origin: |
A3:necrozma-dusk-mane:
A4:arceus:(normal):arceus-ground:(ground)|:alomomola:
A5:ditto::necrozma-ultra::lunala:
A6:deoxys-attack::gothitelle:

B1:rayquaza::ferrothorn::chien-pao::deoxys-speed::salamence-mega:
B2:calyrex-ice:|:garganacl::smeargle:
B3:glimmora:
B4:diancie-mega::arceus-water:(water):basculegion::blissey:|
B5:chi-yu::pheromosa::chansey::dondozo::giratina:
B6:kyurem-black:|

C1:tapu-lele::arceus-ghost:(ghost):shuckle::arceus-grass:(grass):arceus-flying:(flying)
C2:mewtwo-mega-y::palkia-origin:|:zekrom::arceus-rock:(rock)
C3:tyranitar-mega::landorus-therian::grimmsnarl::hatterene::arceus-steel:(steel)|
C4|:ribombee::kingambit::venusaur-mega::heatran:
C5:dialga::iron-treads::flutter-mane::cresselia::melmetal::mewtwo:
UR:gholdengo::arceus-dragon::ursaluna-bloodmoon:


S+

:pmd/groudon-primal: I still think Primal Groudon deserves to stand alone in S+. During the last slate although I wasn't quite sold, there was a pretty strong argument for getting rid of S+ entirely. At that time fat balances were picking up a lot of steam which could reasonably drop Primal Groudon and it was nowhere to be seen on most HO teams. Personally the main reason to have an S+ ranking is if not using a mon will generally make your team worse. This was a pretty reasonable stance a couple of months ago, and still is, but is much harder to argue for currently. Primal Groudon is seeing use on HO again and the fatter balances that can drop Primal Groudon have dropped off a bit. Furthermore, Arceus formes generally running little to no physical bulk is a boon for defensive sets especially as they can afford a few evs to 2HKO with Precipice Blades.

S

:pmd/zygarde: I've been mulling over whether Zygarde is S+ material recently. In game it certainly is, but ultimately it isn't a your team is worse if you drop this mon scenario. Despite being one of maybe 3 mons holding the metagame together, it is quite droppable. It should still probably be on close to, if not a majority of teams, but that is a far cry from Primal Groudon which should have >75% usage. Zygarde is immensely splashable, but it isn't something every team needs. Coil sets, whether Glare or Dragon Tail, Tera Water or Tera Fairy, Phys or SpD hold the metagame together defensively due to at least soft checking most mons that don't run Taunt. However Taunt user(s) are on almost every team courtesy of Yveltal and Arceus formes, but are not happy switching into Glare. SpD sets are also easier to build around than they've ever been, but I generally think that an Impish nature with some def EVs are better than Calm sets.

Dragon Dance sets are AG worthy in a vacuum. However, that does come with the cost of banning Zygarde as a whole and while somewhat splashable, mindlessly putting Dragon Dance Zygarde on a team is not likely going to end well. If it doesn't get that free turn it is heavily limited in what it can do and missing out on the defensive utility of Coil Zygarde cannot be understated. While DD Zygarde may be immensely difficult to answer defensively, the opportunity costs are pretty high and it is a mon that does often require some risk and skill to position and setup.

We've seen a pretty big increase in both Tera Fairy and Dragon Tail on Coil Zygarde which had seen dwindling usage until recently. Tera Fairy helps a ton with Dragon Dance Zygarde, but does have some signficantly worse important matchups against some key threats which need to be accounted for by teammates. Last slate I thought Zygarde was slightly better than Eternatus, but thought they were close enough. The rise and frankly stupidity of Dragon Dance Zygarde firmly cements it above Eternatus for now. Counterplay to Dragon Dance Zygarde exists, but consistently handling it without making the team much worse into the rest of the metagame is tough. Entro and Bob definitely made me feel less crazy about spending some time thinking about whether or not Zygarde is S+ or not.

:pmd/eternatus: My feelings towards Eternatus are kind of jumbled. Adem's FSG debut with the Eternatus theorem is coming soon and it would be best if she elaborated on that. To start with, I've always felt that Eternatus is slightly overrated and overused. It is arguably the most splashable mon in the tier (more than Primal Groudon) and that is a signficant reason for its placing rather than the strength of any indvidual set. In terms of metagame trends, Eternatus has established itself a common mon, if not a staple on HO at this point due to its ability to absorb Toxic Spikes.

This is a pretty signficant issue for defensive sets which heavily rely on Toxic Spikes to alleviate an otherwise poor matchup into most offensive teams. I'm already of the belief that defensive Eternatus sets are overrated to begin with as balance teams generally can play around Toxic and Toxic Spikes relatively easily even without their own Eternatus. Offensive Ho-Oh sets have continued to rise in use which defensive Eternatus really does not like as defensive Ho-Oh is often an entry point to make progress. Add that onto struggling with offensive Eternatus sets, Dragon Dance Zygarde, Calm Mind Arceus formes and defensive Eternatus struggles with consistently executing its game plan relative to previous metagames. The struggles that defensive sets are having unfortunately more than balance out the rise of offensive sets to the point where I heavily considered voting S-.


S-

:pmd/ho-oh: Offensive Ho-Oh, particularly with Tera Flying (provided it is accompanied with appropriate anti-offense tools) or Grass is something I think is a bit slept on and 248 HP / 16 Def survives +1 Wild Charge so that is nice. Offensive Ho-Oh is fairly flexible, but is going to want Defog on most teams. The last moveslot, tera type, and EVs are pretty flexible depending on what the team needs (anywhere from 0 to 196 Speed works). It is sort of a flex spot, but recently I've been staying away from Earthquake more often than not. The damage is pretty disappointing without Tera Ground and dipping into Ho-Oh's deep utility movepool. Flame Charge with various levels of speed investment to outspeed anything from slower Arceus formes to Chien-Pao is usable imo. Defensive sets are still geat, but a bit boring and exploitable if just paired with a bunch of fat shit that has trouble forcing progress. I just find defensive Ho-Oh a bit boring to use currently despite it still being good, there are still a lot of good teams that rely on its defensive capabilities where offensive Ho-Oh doesn't quite cut it, especially on the physical side.

:pmd/marshadow: As a whole things havn't changed much for it. Offensive structures are rising in popularity and viability which Marshadow loves facing whilst being common on them itself. The one thing it doesn't love is the rise of Dragon Dance Zygarde. Dragon Dance Zygarde doesn't switch in unless Marshadow is locked into Shadow Sneak, but can use it as setup fodder. I'm still low on non Choice Band sets, but they do have their place on various teams. Choice Band Marshadow is good into pretty much everything that isn't stall or Psyspam. I still find it funny that Marshadow is more annoyed by Arceus-Dark than Arceus-Fairy.

:pmd/yveltal: Sometimes I feel that this should drop to A+, but then I remember the resources that go into handling Yveltal both in the builder and in game. It is still an absolute pain to handle defensively and only moderately less so offensively. Life Orb is still far and away the best set, but I'm a lot higher on Choice Scarf these days that I ever have been. Choice Scarf Yveltal sucks, but it is also the GOAT. That role compression is invaluable to a lot of teams that struggle against offense. Sticky Web is the strongest HO playstyle at the moment and it is so good into that and Foul Play hits hard enough into most mons it isn't targeting. Defensive sets are just kind of alright, but I'm not a huge fan. I still don't like Yveltal as a primary Ultra Necrozma check. People should try Tera Flying and Poison on Life Orb sets more and Tera Fire is pretty nice on Webs. Yveltal ultimately still is an incredibly flexible mon that can fit on just about any playstyle and imo has a decent argument to move up to S. S+++ on Webs.

:pmd/arceus-dark: I want to say nothing much has changed, but there has been a slight uptick in Foul Play sets, especially alongside Dragon Dance Zygarde. I'm a much bigger fan of these structures than the Coil Zygarde + defensive Arceus-Dark structures that some people used to use that would get blown up by almost every special attacker. As with last slate, this vote is primarily due to Calm Mind sets. Only really needing to deal with Ultra Necrozma and Yveltal against HO results in a much better matchup in game against HO than on paper. Throughout the last sixish months I've found myself increasingly factoring in how a mon deals with Calm Mind Arceus-Dark. I think that this is a big reason we've seen a surge in Tera Dragon on Meteor Beam Eternatus compared to the old standard of Tera Fire as it allows Eternatus to beat it. Although it isn't the sole reason, it is also a factor in why I've gravitated more towards offensive Ho-Oh. Arceus-Dark doesn't centralize the metagame around itself in the same vein as its S rank compatriots, but is just as good. The only reason it isn't S rank is the Arceus tax as Arceus-Fairy does give it legitimate competition.

A+

:pmd/kyogre-primal: I voted for Primal Kyogre S- last slate and this time it is a bit tougher. Defensive sets are still very good, but definitely have a rougher time with the continued popularity of Garganacl, Ferrothorn, but particularly Alomomola structures. It still decimates stall, but has to work slightly harder against fat teams. Offensive sets are in an odd place as the metagame is slightly more offensive than last slate which isn't good for it, but it also fits incredibly well onto many of these offensive teams as well. I do rate defensive sets slightly higher than last slate as I think I overrated the issues it has with Alomomola structures. It isn't an ideal matchup, but it isn't deadweight. I did initially have Primal Kyogre as S-, but after a bit more thought A+is probably more accurate.


:pmd/zacian-crowned: Before NDP/FL I'd planned to vote Zacian-C down to A. I still hold that sentiment, albeit loosely. During these tournaments people were spamming the ever loving daylights out of offense beyond reason. Consequently, Zacian-C had a stellar showing that oversells its capabilities. It is an excellent mon, but I don't think that it is nearly as strong as its results indicate. Having spent way too much time watching every game, a lot of Zacian-C wins were purely a result of luck due to dodging attacks or getting low rolls. Still, to some degree, data is data and people are creating an environment where Zacian-C is able to see a lot more success than it should means something.

If people are going to spam Zacian-C weak teams that makes Zacian-C better to some degree. I don't agree, but a S- rank is fine imo. There are valid reasons to have it higher than I do. Personally, it is a bit of a wierd middle ground because when building Zacian-C it has a lot of 4MSS, but when playing against it every option has to be respected. Zacian-C may be the best speed control we have, but I hate it as speed control. It feels so damn exploitable as we have a lot of shit that boosts past it and blows it up. Furthermore, it doesn't have great matchups with Marshadow and Choice Scarf Yveltal, the other two main speed control options. It does beat Marshadow easily 1v1, but has a rough time doing a ton while remaining out of Shadow Sneak range. Pheromosa and Deoxys-A becoming a bit more common also are not things Zacian-C loves, particularly the former as it can always Tera Fighting and OHKO in a pinch. I also consider the Substitute set that has been popping up here and there fringe at best. It will work in a Bo1, but is stupidly inconsistent. Zacian-C already wants more moves than it can fit and greeding with Substitute is highly punishing v almost anything that isn't HO.


:pmd/arceus-fairy: It still has a polarizing matchup spread of either goobing or getting goobed by the top mons, but the latter isn't much of an issue in practise. This is largely due to Taunt as even though Arceus-Fairy isn't really doing much to Ho-Oh or Primal Groudon, it still prevents them from attempting to make progress and is quite nice for catching Eternatus or Necrozma-DM on the switch. The main issue that I've run into with Arceus-Fairy strucutures is Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM which is difficult to play around at +1 until the fourth move has been revealed. Primal Groudon can take +1 Earthquake, but outside of that any switchin is risky. Stealth Rock Taunt sets remain excellent and Calm Mind Taunt is quite good, but I'm surprised to not have seen a ton of Calm Mind Wisp. Feels like something that should be seen at least sometimes. I don't vibe with Wisp on support sets though. I'm not sure if I would even if it was 100% accurate. Bold is still really bad if you are not running it with Zacian-C. 68 Def is enough to be a decent soft check to Marshadow and you can actually outspeed Yveltal.

:pmd/giratina-origin: I don't find that there has been a ton of experimenting with Giratina-O and if someone thinks it should drop to A I'm not going to disagree much. It is between A and A+ for me. The structures Giratina-O fits on are pretty good, but offensive structures that don't use it are pretty good right now and those have all developed since Giratina-O rose to A+. I'm willing to give it some time and even though it wasn't used that much in NDP/FL that could be a quirk of small sample size. It isn't wholly dependent on Alomomola and plenty of good Giratina-O BOs exist without it and I that is good enough for me now. I'm not sure when the next slate will be, but I could easily see myself voting Giratina-O to A. It is still good, just seems to have slowed down slightly. Physical sets are still ass. I only recall one instance where a team actually appreciated what physical Tina-O brought to the table.

A

:pmd/necrozma-dusk-mane: I struggled a bit with this one because Necrozma-DM has an A+ ceiling, but ultimately its splashability holds it back a bit too much. Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM is a really damn good wallbreaker and Smash still does very good damage even if not boosted, but it does want more support or attention in the builder compared to the A+ mons. This is due to it being a more generalized 'goodmon' than absolutely bludgeoning structures. I hold similar sentiments towards Giratina-O, but I value its ability to enable various mons / structures more. Defensive Necrozma-DM is still mediocre on a good day.

:pmd/arceus: A+ was and still is a bit crazy to me. Last slate I spent a while mulling over whether Arceus should drop to A- and instead it rose. I didn't feel at the time that Arceus was worse, but the increased competition from Arceus-Ground was a pretty big factor given that Arceus doesn't fit on much outside of HO. Ultimately, Arceus was out of place with the mons I had in A- so I voted A. I do still feel this way, but offense has done enough to demonstrate its strength for Arceus to justify an A ranking. It is also clearly, to me at least, a step above everything below it.

That being said, Arceus has a ton of issues as no matter what it runs it is still missing out on quite a bit, at least for traditional sets. The wallbreaking sets that have been gaining popularity in recent months are great at what they do, but have a lower ceiling and require more team support. Currently Arceus really wants Tera Normal for the damage boost against a lot of stuff, but without Tera Normal it is quite frustrated by Dragon Dance Zygarde as even +2 LO doesn't OHKO and it takes enough that setting up again can be difficult, especially with hazards up. It doesn't require a ton of chip, but Dragon Dance Zygarde also isn't needed for much else on HO so it will often be at full. However, it also wants Tera Ghost for other Arceus, Ditto, Marshadow, and Zacian-C. This extends to its moves as well as it really appreciates having Taunt against bulkier teams to allow itself to find esier setup opportunites.

:pmd/arceus-ground: Everything except for Dragon Dance and the ocassional Taunt Toxic set are mid as hell. Dragon Dance is pretty good on offensive structures, but not nearly enough to justify its current A+ ranking. Before NDPL I'd have had Arceus-Ground at B+, but I am a fan of Dragon Dance on offense. It ultimately boils down to Arceus-Ground not providing what you want out of an Arceus forme defensively or offensively. Primal Groudon is a great target, but beyond that stuff like defensive Necrozma-DM and other Ground-weak mons are not nearly common enough to justify this. A huge part of what makes Primal Groudon balanced is how easy it is for most teams to handle it without needing Arceus-Ground. It isn't so much Arceus-Ground is horrible as it is hard to justify giving up the Arceus slot for. Ended up moving this from A- -> A because I'm probably being a hater and it is legitmitately decent. I'll see whether having some faith in Arceus-Ground burns me as the tournament progresses.

A-

:pmd/alomomola: I intially had Alomomola at A, but after thinking about it for a while A- is definitely more appropriate. They are still great, but some of the stuff Alomomola structures struggle with have seen a bit of an uptick, notably webs. I'm not really sure if it is a direct response to the rise of Alomomola structures, but various sets/mons that harass them have also been getting more common such as Deoxys-A, Tera Dragon Meteor Beam Eternatus, and especially Dragon Dance Zygarde. Alomomola is still a fantastic pivot and enabler, but seems to have settled into its place in the metagame rather than continuing to rise. It is still a reel good fish. Please stop using Zacian-C with it. Mola structures already tend to struggle with webs and a -1 Zacian-C is not a huge threat.

:pmd/necrozma-ultra: I'm not sure what there is to say about Ultra Necrozma that I or others have not already. It is obscenely threatening, but also doesn't have a great way to get past its counterplay. Arceus-Dark, Yveltal, and Marshadow are all elite and common mons, yet alone other softer checks such as Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy which leads to it being a bit too inconsistent for an A level threat in my experience. The Stealth Rock set is pretty decent, but is and should be uncommon. That almost kept it in A for me, but ultimately Ultra Necrozma is ranked on its Dragon Dance set which I consider A-. Chi-Yu and Arceus-Ground proving to be legitimate competition for Ultra Necrozma when it doesn't really fit outside of HO except for the SR set is a bit rough.

That being said, I can easily see myself voting it back to A in the future. I also would be quite happy if Ultra Necrozma was banned despite dropping it a subrank as I've grown increasingly irritated at the restrictions it places in the teambuilder. Very few other mons are able to punish a lack of hard checks in the way Ultra Necrozma does.

:pmd/ditto: Zacian-C trending more towards Behemoth Blade is great for Ditto as Play Rough does help self improof a fair amount. I would have thought more voters would see Ditto as an A- mon given the offensive environment we find ourselves in. It is not a good Dragon Dance Zygarde check. The window where Dragon Dance Zygarde is in revenge killing range is far too narrow. Great against most other HO stuff and stall as always though.

:pmd/deoxys-attack: Great mon when used by good players instead of myself. The lead set has been popping up here and there a bit more often which is great to see. It is a lot more annoying than Deoxys-S given that it can actually threaten things even if Deoxys-S is much better in that role. Guessing the coverage/tera is a headache. It will always have Psycho Boost / Low Kick, but figuring out the last two is a pain. It is hard to see Deoxys-A moving up a subrank in the future largely due to the opportunity cost of getting a turn wrong.

:pmd/lunala: The last couple of slates I've had Lunala close to or rounding out A-, but Emoxu9 in particular has shown that Meteor Beam Lunala has a real niche beyond Psyspsam and others have been experimenting with it as well. I don't think it is a staple of HO, but is surprisingly decent on the with a some flexibility between the last moveslot and tera type. Choice Specs is still a ruthless wallbreaker that quites appreciate the resistance to making Timid Arceus formes standard. Until that change happens I don't see myself dropping it to B+.

It isn't as though Arceus-Dark, Marshadow, and Yveltal can really get much better than they are at the moment. So this ranking isn't a result of an incredibly favourable environment. Lunala's drawbacks still exist and probably hold it back from ever getting any higher than A- though. I'm still not really a fan of defensive sets. I get the appeal, but I think most teams have better options when lookng to fill this role. Getting ruined to the degree it does where the only non-blob cleric cannot fit alongside it is rough. It is also a tera hog that isn't even consistent.

:pmd/gothitelle: Still stupid. Still very underused. HO and the style of offences used by Skimmy are not great for it. On that plus it having near zero use is justification for B+, but not something I'd agree with. Although offense is quite good, I don't think it is dominant enough to drop Gothitelle given how good it tends to be against everything else. I can't speak for anyone else, but Gothitelle is a significant reason why my teams have trended more offensive than in past metagames. If you are not running offense Gothitelle is often going to be able to remove an incredibly important defensive pillar on your team.

B+

:pmd/rayquaza: Unlike Mega Salamence I do still have enough faith in Rayquaza to keep it A-. I might still have Rayquaza A-, but its gone from borderline A last slate to borderline B+ this one. The biggest reason for me is that Alomomola structures actually do a decent job at limiting it due to Protect running through Dragon Ascent PP quite quickly. Garganacl is also a factor. Having some relatively common structures is definitely an issue for a mon whos biggest selling point is being an unwallable wallbreaker. It is still a very good wallbreaker, but is a bit less consistent than it used to be. Dragon Dance sets on HO are still not used nearly enough though. Choice Band doesn't love the more offensive environment we are in currently, but Dragon Dance being pretty good on offense does somewhat balance this out.

:pmd/ferrothorn: It is still really good so only one use across NDP/FL was very surprising. Ferrothorn is never going to be a high use mon as its splashability is what keeps it here instead of the A ranks in the first place. It is one of those mons that tends to be a lot better in game than on paper due to its ability to force progress between Spikes, Knock Off, and Leech Seed. I'm also a much bigger fan of Tera Grass than Tera Water as it shores up matchups that Ferrothorn should be decent against, but can struggle with such as defensive Primal Kyogre and Dragon Dance Zygarde. It rarely teras anyways so having that is quite nice. Ferrothorn plays a pretty big role in allowing a lot of fatter balance teams to exist in the first place due to its role compression. Funnily enough it isn't a horrible soft check to Ultra Necrozma. I understand an argument for B, but I still have faith in the durian.

:pmd/salamence-mega: Mega Salamence did actually have a great win rate of 80%, but was only used five times. I'm really not a fan of using winrates generally, especially with such a small sample size, but it is something at least. Mega Salamence is something that I've gone out of my way to build around a fair bit recently to give a fair shake and the results have left me a bit disappointed. Maybe it is one of those mons that is way better against me than in my hands.

Ultimately, the metagame is more condusive to Mega Salamence teams than it has been in a very long time and it is still a bit frustrating to build with. On top of this, it still doesn't really see much use. Mega Salamence is a decent mon, but at a certain point a Mega Salamence type of mon should have more of a metagame presence than it has for the last while.

:pmd/deoxys-speed: Nothing has really changed. Still the best HO lead, still faces a decent amount of competition from Glimmora. Unfortunately for Deoxys-S, the surge in offense has largely been teams without a dedicated lead. Otherwise it would be A-, although if someone still thinks it is that is fine by me. I'm a little lower on offense in general than most people.

:pmd/chien-pao: It still does the same things it has been doing for a while, but the teams it fits on are taken advantage of a little bit more plus it does not exactly love the rise of Dragon Dance Zygarde given it is OHKOed by +1 Tera Ground Thousand Arrows. Chien-Pao is definitely still B+ imo, but closer to B than the borderline A- it was last slate.

If things continue this way dropping to B is a possibility. However, Chien-Pao has pretty firmly solidified its niche in the metagame. The issue is that it is never going to be a splashable mon due to the frailty and Stealth Rock weakness. Due to relying extensively on support rather than being self sufficient, Chien-Pao's viability is subject to some level of fluctuation depending on how good the teams it can fit on are. Regardless, it seems like a pretty safe bet that Chien-Pao will spend the rest of the generation somewhere in the B ranks. Where exactly that happens to be is yet to be seen.

:pmd/calyrex-ice: Is Calyrex-I the last mon without a PMD sprite? Either way not really much has changed. It is still probably the best trader in the tier and enables a lot of unique structures due to being the only non stall cleric. It still is capable of trading 1v1 with pretty much anything if tera hasn't been exhausted due to the natural bulk which is quite nice. Tera Fairy is something that has grown on me quite a bit due to It blanket checks Arceus formes while turning the tables on its typical counterplay. If someone were to make an argument that its lack of splashability limits it to B I can understand that. I just wish more people would use it in the way which justifies its ranking as opposed to Trick Room. The current environment is offensive enough that OTR isn't a total throw, but the amount of resources it requires to still be meh v anything other than offense in the late-game is a bit much for me.

B

:pmd/smeargle: Honestly, fuck this thing. It is the epitome of bullshit and always seems to have whatever four moves screw you over. Moody just adds onto this. The saving grace is that Perish Song is being close to mandatory given how easily Dragon Dance Zygarde just 6-0s otherwise. Webs have gotten a bit better and Smeargle has shown itself to be the premier webs setter for a while now so it rises.

:pmd/garganacl: Last slate it was on the verge of B+. It is still a good mon and a signficant reason to run fat balance instead of stall. Salt Cure is a broken move and its matchup against the defoggers means it will probably always have some niche. I'm a bit lower on it now than I was then as Garganacl thrives in a more balanced metagame as opposed to the offensive one we find ourselves in.

:pmd/glimmora: Nothing has really changed. Still annoying to most Ho-Oh structures and a lot of Giratina-O structures lacking Alomomola. It is still much closer to a sidegrade than a downgrade to Deoxys-S even if Deoxys-S is still a bit better.

:pmd/diancie-mega: As with Glimmora nothing has really changed. Great into HO while still being annoying for BO/Balance even if 4MSS is a thing. I'm not really sure what the future holds for it. I don't really see Mega Diancie rising to B+, but staying at B or dropping to B- seem equally possible. Its niche is valuable enough that it is hard to see Mega Diancie dropping to the C ranks. It is a decent if unflashy mon. The bulk really holds it back from being a lot better as it doesn't switchin well to mons it beats 1v1 such as Ho-Oh and Yveltal.

:pmd/arceus-water: As time has progressed I've transitioned from an Arceus-Water believer to hater. It feels somewhat underexplored, but we are well past the point where theorymonning can be used to justify ranks. It comes down to Arceus-Water often struggling to justify the level of support it requires in the builder. This results in it being a paper tiger of sorts. It isn't even Primal Groudon blanking Judgment, but the difficulty in running mono Judgment sets. They end up having 4MSS or require a level of support more akin to a C rank mon. Arceus-Water is more underwhelming or mediocre than straight up bad.

:pmd/basculegion: Fishy fish is still fishy. A rise to B could be justified due to Ekiller being dropped more often these days on offense for Arceus-Ground. However, that is somewhat negated by Zacian-C rising up as well. I'm not a HO player and really don't feel like spending time I don't currently have spending a dozen hours on the ladder to get 15-20 good games to truly confirm if it should rise. It has been picking up some use on the ladder so I have at least played against it a fair bit recently. Sure Arceus-Dark is as good as its ever been, but overwhelming it consistently to enable Basculegion is not a monumental task. If it was Basculegion would be C/C-.

:pmd/blissey: Initially had this in B- and changed my vote to B. Just vibes I guess. Definitely more potential than results, but I do feel that the semistall stuff Bob has been up to with Teleport Blissey has a lot of room for optimisation.

B-

:pmd/chi-yu: Chi-Yu hasn't really changed, but Webs have gotten a bit better so it gets a rise. This is due to webs as a whole more than Chi-Yu specifically. It is very good on webs, but isn't close to mandatory. Unless Chi-Yu somehow falls off I'll likely have it a subrank below the best webs setter for the rest of the generation.

:pmd/chansey::pmd/dondozo::pmd/giratina: Stall hasn't changed. It is still a mediocre matchup fish. You either beat it or you don't. I've been thinking about it a little bit more and if you're very high on the sorts of offenses that have sprung up during NDP/FL a rise to B can be justified. A lot of those teams simply do not break stall with any consistency.



:pmd/pheromosa: Pheromosa finds itself in a favourable metagame as the whole pivot + fastest viable mon + strong coverage gameplan works pretty well at the moment. Being an actual decent offensive check to Dragon Dance Zygarde that is unbothered by Substitute (Triple Axel accuracy willing), outspeeding and one tapping Zacian-C with Tera Fighting Low Kick, and forcing Eternatus to Tera (they're pretty much all Tera Dragon on HO atm which is even better) is some nice offensive role compression.

:pmd/kyurem-black: Absolutely screwing over Dragon Dance Zygarde keeps it in B- for me (mutes Adem shrieking in the background). It is still a very good breaker/ sweeper into a lot of balances and BO. It does have some flexibility as it only truly needs Fusion Bolt + Icicle Spear and has enough options at its disposal to provide some degree of flexibility. Even then I can see a case for C+ as it does not exactly love Zacian-C trending upwards.

C+

:pmd/tapu-lele: Psyspam has not changed all. Tapu Lele is the representative of the playstyle. Despite not really seeing any development since its introduction, Psyspam does find itself in a favourable environment at the moment. I'm not sure it deserves to rise to B-, but Psyspam being around the same level as stall doesn't feel outlandish tbh. If everyone is going to spam offense, here is a great antioffense style that unlike Trick Room has good matchups outside of HO.

:pmd/arceus-ghost: Arceus-Ghost isn't bad, but its inconsistency with the opportunity cost does knock it down from B- for me this time. Locking yourself out of Arceus/Arceus-Ground/Ultra Necrozma is a massive ask for HO squads which relegates it to a niche option on the playstyle. In addition to that the ubiquity of Arceus Dark, Marshadow, and Yveltal lend to consistency issues. Maybe C is a better rank?

:pmd/arceus-grass: I've always quite liked Arceus-Grass. This metagame makes any Grass-type worth considering due to the defensive characteristics. Yeah it has a lot of issues, but it is also in C+. Having an Arceus forme that actually handles Dragon Dance Zygarde without conciously is really damn nice. I'd say Arceus-Water but that uninvested Judgment doesn't even OHKO after Tera Ground. Grass is a polarizing type, but those positives are way higher than the negatives. Compressing a Zygarde + Primal Kyogre counter is always going to have value in this metagame.

:pmd/arceus-flying: Calm Mind is a decent wincon if you build around it. At the end of the day, it forces certain structures and the Arceus tax is a hefty price. It is good, but realistically you're using this because you want to. Fortunately for Arceus-Flying, it is good enough to justify doing so.

:pmd/mewtwo-mega-y: It isn't quite as much of a paper tiger as Palkia-O, but MMY is going to run into at least one, if not multiple roadblocks on nearly any team that isn't stall. Without Focus Blast it isn't good against stall. It had a good showing in NDP/FL, but it is a small sample size and one of those wins was a Grass Knot MMY that loaded into stall. I want MMY to be good, but its lack of initial power when it is this frail and has such a horrible defensive and only an ok offensive typing holds it back so much. Oh yeah, I don't Psychic is a bad offensive typing in this tier. It isn't near the top or anything, but we don't have any real defensive Steel-types. Pretty much everytime I try and build around MMY I'm left increasingly disappointed. Zacian-C, Marshadow, Ekiller, Arceus-Dark are obvious issues, but even stuff like Arceus or offensive Eternatus if it is willing to burn tera are pretty good into it. Those rare games where MMY goes off half makes up for it though. MMY can be fun to use, but it is a slog to build with.

:pmd/palkia-origin: The house always wins and Palkia-O has been gambling for too long. It has too many deadweight matchups while not being consistent enough in its good ones. It is kind of shocking that Palkia-O was A- not that long ago when you look at it now. At least Flutter Mane has the excuse of Koraidon being banned.

:pmd/shuckle: Don't really have much to say that I have not said above or in the metagame discussion post. Shuckle isn't bad, but has difficulty justifying use over Smeargle. Given that maybe C+ is a bit high.

C

:pmd/arceus-rock: Cool antimeta mon. Should not be seen often, but it is always cool when it is. It appreciates Ho-Oh shifting towards offensive sets and Arceus-Rock would rather deal with Earthquakes than Toxic.

:pmd/arceus-steel: Niche Arceus forme. I'd just like to see a bit more of it. I have not run into a single Arceus-Steel team since the last slate other than one I made, but didn't end up using for NDPL. If the same trend continues I'll probably vote it to C-/D in the future.

:pmd/zekrom: Zekrom at C is me having some faith. It is a breaker that locks you out of Ultra Necrozma and is inherently inconsistent due to requiring it to time that Devastating Drake perfectly. It is viable, but I also wouldn't be bothered if it dropped to D.

:pmd/tyranitar-mega: C+ was jumping the gun. Mega Tyranitar stall is ok, but outside of one team Adem showed me before NDPL I havn't really seen any any Mega Tyranitar teams that I liked. I don't even remember what the team was, but remember thinking eh it could work. If someone makes a decent Mega Tyranitar team it can rise back up. Until then it is fine in C as Mega Tyranitar stall is one of the best punishes to bad/lazy teambuilding. I'm not really sure why, but a lot of teams lean wayy too heavily on LO Yveltal for fat/stall and Mega Tyranitar stall eats these teams for breakfast.

:pmd/landorus-therian: It has usable role compression but the bulk really does let it down. The typing + Intimidate really make you forget that this has the same bulk as Marshadow until Overheat rudely reminds you. Lando is just sort of whatever. It has its place as a mon that will probably pop up once or twice a tournament and be a servicable pivot for a BO team.

:pmd/grimmsnarl: Intially I wanted to rise this to C+. After a bit more time to think about it, that stems from being pleasantly surprised that Grimmsnarl wasn't complete dogshit when a couple of people wanted some screens teams during NDP/FL. It isn't a bad screener, but screens also are not great. Grimmsnarl still has trouble justifying itself over Deoxys-S as it really really wants all of Taunt, Parting Shot, Spirit Break, and to a lesser extent Thunder Wave with only two slots. Pivoting is great, but you want Spirit Break to actually threaten the Dark-types you can't pivot against, but the Prankster Taunt is also invaluable. The more I think about it, Grimmsnarl was more of a shiny new toy as I have not used it much since whenever the last time I wanted to confirm it really was as dogshit as it seemed.

:pmd/hatterene: Trick Room is a bad, mostly skilless strategy, but it is viable. Furthermore, the offensive environment does make it slightly better and Hatterene is mandatory on Trick Room. Every other mon has a case to be excluded except Hatterene.

C-

:pmd/ribombee: With webs trending upwards a bit maybe Ribombee deserves a rise to C. Webs lead that screws over Webs leads while Shield Dust ensures it will always have 2 turns to do stuff v Ho-Oh is pretty nice. The movepool is shockingly deep, but at the same time Ribombee could easily find itself UR.

:pmd/kingambit: I guess I'm one of the few believers. When I look at the C/C- ranks Kingambit kinda feels like it slots in. It isn't a great mon, but it does have a place on a couple of fat teams as an endgame wincon. It is something I'd probably use and recommend before pretty much anything in C- and some stuff in C.

:pmd/venusaur-mega: Coil Zygarde + Primal Kyogre check is still pretty valuable. It loses 1v1 to Dragon Dance Zygarde, but I'm still something of a believer. At the same time I wouldn't be surprised to see it UR at some point in the future.

:pmd/heatran: It doesn't love offensive Ho-Oh becoming more common, but it is still beyond a nuisance to defensive Overheat Primal Groudon + defensive Ho-Oh structures. Those are still common enough to justify a ranking imo, but I'm not sure they will be in the future.

:pmd/dialga: I'd be fine if Dialga dropped to D. Asked Dialga's biggest defender why it shouldn't be and yeah I guess Specs is usable. It is safe until 2025. That Sami is willing to load mons like Darmanitan-G and Cyclizar instead of building around Dialga says a lot though.

:pmd/iron-treads: I've never liked this mon. A HO lead that beats most other HO leads and importantly has a good matchup into Deoxys-S is definitely a niche. I'm fine with Iron Treads being UR, but when I look at the company it keeps C- is fine. It has its niche and that niche has some value.

:pmd/flutter-mane: I'm sure Sami will be happy to have helped boost Flutter Mane a bit rather than get Galarian Darmanitan ranked. I still think this mon is terrible, but it being worse than Trick Room feels kind of wrong. It may genuinely be though. I would be far from surprised if Flutter Mane falls to D by the end of the generation, but floating somewhere near the bottom of the VR seems more likely.

:pmd/cresselia: Should always be seen with Melmetal and can be justified on non-Melmetal Trick Room. It is difficult to do so imo, but people do.

:pmd/melmetal: Melmetal does appreciate metagame trends to where I can see why someone would opt for it over Calyrex-I for the first time in a long time. This is mainly Zygarde shifting over to Dragon Dance sets which Melmetal deletes and the subsequent increase in Tera Fairy Coil Zygarde largely as a response to that which Melmetal also deletes. Trick Room is still bad and Melmetal is still bad, but slightly less bad than it used to be.

:pmd/mewtwo: Rocky Helmet is used on Mega Tyranitar stall. LO is somewhere between mediocre and bad. These take a while to write and I don't always remember to edit everything, but as of this writing 3 votes are in and all are C- so it has a good chance of being ranked. That will certainly make some people happy. Can't really say I have much of a vested interest in this one and I don't find its absence on the VR egregious. I've spent more time thinking and building around mons such as Fezandipiti, Wo-Chien, and Ludicolo.

UR/D/Abstain

:pmd/gholdengo: The Emoxu9 v Bobsican game showed what it can do v fat even if Gholdengo should not have been on that team. It is a great punish into some fat structures, but I'm pretty skeptical that it is worthwhile ranking. A lot of that niche requires defensive Ho-Oh to be common and offensive sets have been seeing more use for quite a while now. I initially had Gholdengo at C-, but after talking a little bit with Neon changed to UR. Sure Gholdengo may have that niche, but that has been of questionable value for a while. The passive teams it shreds have gone from uncommon to rare over the last few months. Dragon Dance Zygarde plays a role, but there are a lot of other things they don't like.

:pmd/arceus-dragon: It is a primal check that still has trouble with the primals. I've played and watched a lot of NDUbers at this point and probably saw more Arceus-Dragon watching USM in UPL than I have in this tier since I started playing.

:pmd/ursaluna-bloodmoon: Kinda feels like there is something there. At the same time I have not really been impressed enough when I've run into it recently to rank it. It is more annoying than good on Trick Room and Trick Room is bad so that isn't enough to rank it. I don't feel strongly enough to vote it to D at this time. The set R8 was talking about was Tera Poison Shucca Berry if someone wants to work on that.

:pmd/cyclizar: I kind of get it. I'm just not really sure I believe in it. Abstain felt the way to go as I'm not sure if it is usable, but bad cheese or just UR. Shed Tail + 121 Speed at a bare minimum give it some degree of potential. I'm just not really sure how I feel about it. Its mostly been discussed in the context of passing a boost to Lunala to take advantage of Shadow Shield, but Smeargle running Perish Song for Dragon Dance Zygarde already leaves me a bit iffy.

:groudon-primal:

Defensive: S+
Jank Defensive: S
SD Utility: S-/A+
Double Dance: A
Eruption: A-/B+
RP 2/3A: B/B-
Offensive Support: B-

:zygarde-complete:

Dragon Dance (Tera Ground): S/S+
Coil (Tera Water + Glare): S
Coil (Tera Fairy + Dragon Tail) : S-
Coil (Tera Water + Dragon Tail): S-
Coil (Tera Fairy +Glare): S-/A+
Coil (SpD): A/A-
Trapper: B-

:eternatus:

Wallbreaker: S/S-
Defensive: A/A+
Meteor Beam (Tera Dragon): A/A-
Shucca: B
Choice Specs: B-
Dragonium-Z: C+
LO + 3A: C

:ho-oh:

Offensive (Flame Charge / WW / T Wave): S-/A+
Defensive (Tera Grass WW): A+/S-
Defensive (Brave Bird): A/A+
Offensive (EQ): A
Defensive (Tera Dark): B+
Defensive (Tera Fairy): B
Offensive (Fogless): C+

:marshadow:


Choice Band (STAB): S-
Choice Band (Coverage): A-
Bulk Up: B+
AoA: B-/C+

:arceus-dark:

Calm Mind (Taunt): S-
Calm Mind (Refresh): A-
Jank Calm Mind: A-
Defensive: B+

:yveltal:
Life Orb: S-
Scarf: A+
Defensive: A/A-

:kyogre-primal:

Offensive: A+
Defensive: A+

:arceus-fairy:
CM + Taunt: A+
Taunt + SR: A+/A
Taunt + Wisp: A/A-
CM + Refresh: A-/B+
CM + Coverage: B+/A-
Bold Nature: C

:zacian-crowned:

Tera Ground PR: A+
Tera Fighting PR: A+
Tera Fighting Blade: A+
Tera Ground Blade: A
Jank: A-

:giratina-origin:

Special (T Wave): A+
Special (No Twave): A/A-
Physical (Toxic): B
Physical (No Toxic): B-/C+
Fogless: C/C-

:necrozma-dusk-mane:

Dragon Dance: A
OTR: B-/C+
Defensive: C

:alomomola:

Mixed Def: A-
Phys Def: C+

:arceus:
SD: A/A-
DD Tera Normal: B+
Normalium-Z: B/B+
Trick Room: C

:ditto:
Tera Ghost: A-
Tera Normal: A-/B+
Tera Fairy: C
Tera Dark: C

:rayquaza:
Choice Band: A-/B+
Dragon Dance: B+

:lunala:
Choice Specs: A-
Meteor Beam: B/B+
Calm Mind: C+
Defensive: C/C-

:necrozma-ultra:
Dragon Dance: A-
Lead SR: B+/B
Swords Dance: C+
Calm Mind: C+/C

:deoxys-attack:
Life Orb: A-
Lead: B/B-
Meteor Beam: C+

:gothitelle:
Tera Water: A-
Tera Fairy: A-
Tera Ghost: B/B+
Substitute: C

:salamence-mega:
DE + EQ: A-
DE + Facade: A-/B+
Return + EQ: B
DE + Refresh: B

:arceus-ground:
Dragon Dance: A-/A
Calm Mind: B/B-
Defensive: C+

:ferrothorn:
SpD: B+
Phys Def: C

:chien-pao:
Choice Band: B+

:Deoxys-speed:
Hstack: B+
Screens: C+

:calyrex-ice:
Choice Band: B+
OTR: C/C+
Full TR: C/C-

:garganacl:
IDBP: B
Stealth Rock: B/B-


:arceus-water:
Offensive CM: B
CM + Refresh: B-/C+
Defensive CM: C+/C
Utility: C
 
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Now I'll try my best to explain the notable changes in the VR, as I'm sure this kind of stuff is nice to read for those that merely lurk the metagame:

Raises

:blissey:Blissey: Has found a niche over :chansey:Chansey outside stall teams thanks to being a solid Heavy-Duty Boots pivot with Teleport, filling a unusual niche as a specially defensive pivot, and can even make a defensive core with :alomomola:Alomomola and :giratina-origin:Giratina-O to handle a good portion of the metagame.

:landorus-therian:Landorus-T: :Zacian-crowned:Zacian-C has been getting more concerns lately, so with one of its main niches being a reliable check to that foe, a slight raise is also arguable.

:chi-yu:Chi-Yu: Is a menace under Sticky Web and has seen use in NDPL, so it has shown the performance to be argued for better use.

:basculegion:Basculegion-M: The viability of Sticky Web teams has been rising a bit and thus also raises a bit.

Drops

:arceus-ground:Arceus-Ground: While good, it faces heavy competition with other Arceus formes, and from :necrozma-ultra:Ultra Necrozma as a Z-Move user, defensive sets have also been on a decline.

:arceus-water:Arceus-Water: Also faces competition with other Arceus formes, as well as :alomomola:Alomomola and :kyogre-primal:Primal Kyogre also being alternatives for the roles this'd do.

:gothitelle:Gothitelle: The metagame is leaning a bit more on the offensive direction, and as a result it doesn't shine as much as before.

:salamence-mega::rayquaza:M-Salamence, Rayquaza: Their minimal defensive utility in practice often result in these two requiring more support than stuff in the A- rank.

:ditto:Ditto: :Zygarde:Zygarde with Substitute has been fairly common in the metagame lately, reducing :ditto:Ditto's overall effectiveness in the metagame sufficiently to be reflected with a rank drop.

:diancie-mega::shuckle::iron treads:M-Diancie, Shuckle, Iron Treads: :Smeargle:Smeargle has been bringing competition to the other leads in the metagame, especially as it can play around Magic Bounce with any of Stone Axe, Ceaseless Edge, Mortal Spin, and Nuzzle. Recently there's also been a trend on sets with Perish Song to prevent it from being setup fodder, and as a result other lead alternatives have been on a decline.

:arceus-ghost:Arceus-Ghost: Is mostly a worse :Arceus:Arceus outside the niche of having a Ghost Z-Crystal to overwhelm checks like :necrozma-dusk-mane:Necrozma-DM and :giratina-origin:Giratina-O, but Extreme Speed becoming much weaker with the inability to have STAB on it or Tera on top of it makes it really situational, especially with the competition for a Z-Move slot or an Arceus slot for a team.

:palkia-origin:Palkia-O: All the moves it wants to run have unreliable accuracy and keeps being surprisingly inconsistent, and if it goes for more reliable attacks then its damage output is too terrible to justify its niche as a Dragon-type wallbreaker that can break past :ho-oh:Ho-Oh, it's lack of performance of note overall results on another rank drop.

:mewtwo-mega-y:M-Mewtwo Y: Loss of physical bulk and a pure Psychic typing results on a fast wallbreaker that's weak to priority, has next to no defensive utility, and struggles at doing its own niche by the inability to run all the coverage and setup it wants, resulting in a Pokemon that's often difficult to justify on a team, especially with the wide variety of Psychic-types in the metagame that compete with it.

:zekrom:Zekrom: Keeps being hard to justify over :necrozma-ultra:Ultra Necrozma, and the raise of :zygarde:Zygarde does no favors to it.

:Arceus-steel:Arceus-Steel: Has some defensive merits, but it's still on thin ice as it's a defensive Pokemon vulnerable to a good portion of the tier, including :groudon-primal:Primal Groudon, :kyogre-primal:Primal Kyogre, :zacian-crowned:Zacian-C, :ho-oh:Ho-Oh, :zygarde:Zygarde, and so on.

:cresselia::melmetal:Cresselia, Melmetal: Trick Room teams have been expanding their options, and these two are no longer nearly mandatory to such team structures.

:flutter mane:Flutter Mane: Has the bare niche of being a fast wallbreaker that can't be KOed by Extreme Speed from :Arceus:Arceus or :rayquaza:Rayquaza, and has seen minimal use in some tournaments lately, but is still hard to justify over :marshadow:Marshadow, :lunala:Lunala, and :chien-pao:Chien-Pao.

:arceus-dragon:Arceus-Dragon: Was only ranked out of having the theoretical niche of checking both primals while also holding a good offensive typing, but between the ton of Dragon-types in the metagame and Arceus formes giving it competition, such niche never really materialized and was ultimately sent to D rank.

:dialga:Dialga: Its sole niche was being a Dragon-type wallbreaker with Trick, allowing it to have a better matchup against more defensive teams, but its ironically terrible defensive typing for the metagame, holding neither of the relevant resists for Dragon or Steel, but most of their weaknesses, low Speed, lacking offensive typing, and the wide competition Dragon-type wise, it was ultimately too situational.

:venusaur-mega:M-Venusaur: Has seen next to no usage in recent months, which has put the previous niches it had stated in the previous VR slate into question, leading to its unranking.
 
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:sv/fezandipiti:
UR -> B-
1733830536251.png

This was in August, time really flies

Alright so since LBN used Fezandipiti last round of the tournament there is a replay so I can make a nom. Bob also used it the previous round, but it didn't really do much and is a very different set so it is best that he discusses that. The team lost, but Fez had a really good showing and part of this was the team (Defensive Arceus-Dark + Coil Zyg) and also not utilizing Deoxys-A at all. Since Fez is UR, a replay is required and that at least shows its potential. In discord someone earlier today asked why a few people were on the Fez train and I ended up writing a thesis that I'll just copy and paste here.

Investment
Tera
Reason
Outcome
248 HP / 12+ SpD
None
AD_4nXdN5punGVOgtNLhj_ES39P_G1NOAY_nXC7sll8HFmkGSij6O80O2yqnoNy6veYeUMnPXTTbYoe04T1veOTqst2Pef0k31hcxhhlNdLUq1lEv_-UFc1qDZ7OMx-NbLaQs-rL_OOmYHplQuoKPSMFun91lFY
252+ SpA Origin Pulse 2HKOes after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 20+ SpD
Any
AD_4nXeoW29mis0x9Gfkh_CCn8UisP8oO53VeHNBY6jrdg8fEX9r3lBUdLR_e8R73jg_04HTOSGL_DylunS8m-r1CqsRsGNyxD1B9-z1y6gJnnbivYEfAcAVzbNAw3ce7ycp9UlTzzlkNFsi3dd_5hUk4bN1k2PZ
AD_4nXf286j6stt1l1g5TiBRr00_xfJGsEfzAph_2uVMMuU1ZQVWS0VAamJ7FbcT2oKlKy_NNQ3O6F3sJpa10k71QHnA9qFPyYEbq6f7gxh0Z8FAwGutqfIK-KNMdRcgfEaPcomntwUsumZ17t-AmOEeiYOSmtlJ
Survives Psycho Boost after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 36 SpD
None
AD_4nXeKA8lxFu8Glp8p76YI6UWOD47APSvcahOFwNYNuPOoI4eHUh3TPwa1tRrHUQEvmmjrJTU6EUxPH1BgvsaRVdPyt3XD59IAx3ZA-UH4OCfLaqFy833YpZH6G3V0lMooG0Fes62BqKfb9Ts_CSxzkCiKUPSu
AD_4nXc9arw-dWbwkunojEMV_vfYm3cJLLDIvzINwsQhvrOmaZue5GuMtcMr8MIuEI53fB_lBVSc3HhDsE7M0wWEFPgOTpJ_xH-IWpsDtWZXVAN5Lv2-Wx8eCxoQ3F6FVDP9D1qlcrK4_dtA27-9vt95nuuom9dn
AD_4nXdFCWppmIKp_KfoCRmhzY_djwP6PGAejWdXlOCD0Gc3rHHWUn_-7a2ah6hePW-zWMoSExK-9RbAkYKNlmZHeBUHcBveCgXrK_0VsPpfjdRlNAxbjOP8kehT_0WByW5Duu8JxDgS014wadiJgPX1XntMWNLq
Neutral 252 SpA Judgment 3HKOes after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 68 SpD
None
AD_4nXeKA8lxFu8Glp8p76YI6UWOD47APSvcahOFwNYNuPOoI4eHUh3TPwa1tRrHUQEvmmjrJTU6EUxPH1BgvsaRVdPyt3XD59IAx3ZA-UH4OCfLaqFy833YpZH6G3V0lMooG0Fes62BqKfb9Ts_CSxzkCiKUPSu
AD_4nXc9arw-dWbwkunojEMV_vfYm3cJLLDIvzINwsQhvrOmaZue5GuMtcMr8MIuEI53fB_lBVSc3HhDsE7M0wWEFPgOTpJ_xH-IWpsDtWZXVAN5Lv2-Wx8eCxoQ3F6FVDP9D1qlcrK4_dtA27-9vt95nuuom9dn
AD_4nXdFCWppmIKp_KfoCRmhzY_djwP6PGAejWdXlOCD0Gc3rHHWUn_-7a2ah6hePW-zWMoSExK-9RbAkYKNlmZHeBUHcBveCgXrK_0VsPpfjdRlNAxbjOP8kehT_0WByW5Duu8JxDgS014wadiJgPX1XntMWNLq
Neutral 0 SpA Judgment 4HKOes
248 HP / 72+ SpD
None
AD_4nXdGWRMtzLRg5D712lzUENV2ES_1F7pdXEhz4bmBW6z_M12eAWwNQJckNfraTfPEv4qWtPguRkA6loaWWo2pEyMZ4sLutuu_FhuxwFSQampNUrP1utTzEuFPMj0iSE6wV9XH1lS8lHxuozDdhM_RCPF6YnsB
+1 252 SpA Sludge Bomb 3HKOes
248 HP / 68 SpD
None
AD_4nXf6pQzekEVqZ1V6dMbtY8z5ETzvYrrQDHy2J4niduTNSfKKTKeq-sKW8VTzsSPkS02AN5uSNi-hwqL-yCMblKyqDvOGxLbxTsAyArMA92uCrzjpaEQ-m7_lqpv_kpTYwXv7_GLi1_F0XezvEdDMqsnuxlmD
130 BP Hex 3HKOes
248 HP / 72+ SpD
None
AD_4nXcp4bW5afbIT_qPhayBEl-YCeaG9lf5SUt2EcoQcw4pW_cMejMnagVoAj0SAJCQo2maI9DJbsxutSutiNHsFDkWRStyA4UQ2ltZLQo5OdCWY8dJoCu4lJZw0w1FcJG6t29EXSIID1Q-PL35CNw_dnqdlNc
0 SpA Sludge Bomb 5HKOes
248 HP / 72+ SpD
None
AD_4nXfYaoXjClf733TI6gKeDuYM-b4-OWyzcSKEwKFNfj5UYigLXi-9sTWO_LsgbExg6KcCA5X51inq_4iaNy-qgy_gh8_ozL7cQOY02D1B91hzSiibSukgc8tGrTJ-hnAOsPQ-3LJX78LXkvx_OHJyhA2bKmpz
Survives 2 0 SpA Overheats
248 HP / 96+ SpD
None
AD_4nXeKA8lxFu8Glp8p76YI6UWOD47APSvcahOFwNYNuPOoI4eHUh3TPwa1tRrHUQEvmmjrJTU6EUxPH1BgvsaRVdPyt3XD59IAx3ZA-UH4OCfLaqFy833YpZH6G3V0lMooG0Fes62BqKfb9Ts_CSxzkCiKUPSu
AD_4nXc9arw-dWbwkunojEMV_vfYm3cJLLDIvzINwsQhvrOmaZue5GuMtcMr8MIuEI53fB_lBVSc3HhDsE7M0wWEFPgOTpJ_xH-IWpsDtWZXVAN5Lv2-Wx8eCxoQ3F6FVDP9D1qlcrK4_dtA27-9vt95nuuom9dn
AD_4nXdFCWppmIKp_KfoCRmhzY_djwP6PGAejWdXlOCD0Gc3rHHWUn_-7a2ah6hePW-zWMoSExK-9RbAkYKNlmZHeBUHcBveCgXrK_0VsPpfjdRlNAxbjOP8kehT_0WByW5Duu8JxDgS014wadiJgPX1XntMWNLq
Neutral 0 SpA Judgment 4HKOes after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 100+ SpD
None
AD_4nXfIvFBkvOa8TxbktOO9B6805rfyamqtvpkTl8n_-ESv5P8q5LBrE7GcIwFYggFYXss8OSWDznznqVXbzkZMgxOxavQwEaClgSzIsNQVEId1gRPzqBn9QkNTpSc_38ixDgyjill--trr4yMfzx9dNIqj1GE_
Scald 3HKOes after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 100+ SpD
None
AD_4nXfQHgAEbt8hGO4caR73x65h6O74Q0Ho4zK9V4zDv2Py0IOAYDwb9Fn-zwhFR8zVGhlQs0KB5UbxIBT1zZhOhqIZk3q3aJJzE-S2VQeJNed9UOt8M_L_sVgPdv70_z_fQBR07z56nbypnGYD4X5bwM4DNE9h
130 BP 8+ Hex 3HKOes after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 156+ SpD
None
AD_4nXeKA8lxFu8Glp8p76YI6UWOD47APSvcahOFwNYNuPOoI4eHUh3TPwa1tRrHUQEvmmjrJTU6EUxPH1BgvsaRVdPyt3XD59IAx3ZA-UH4OCfLaqFy833YpZH6G3V0lMooG0Fes62BqKfb9Ts_CSxzkCiKUPSu
AD_4nXc9arw-dWbwkunojEMV_vfYm3cJLLDIvzINwsQhvrOmaZue5GuMtcMr8MIuEI53fB_lBVSc3HhDsE7M0wWEFPgOTpJ_xH-IWpsDtWZXVAN5Lv2-Wx8eCxoQ3F6FVDP9D1qlcrK4_dtA27-9vt95nuuom9dn
AD_4nXdFCWppmIKp_KfoCRmhzY_djwP6PGAejWdXlOCD0Gc3rHHWUn_-7a2ah6hePW-zWMoSExK-9RbAkYKNlmZHeBUHcBveCgXrK_0VsPpfjdRlNAxbjOP8kehT_0WByW5Duu8JxDgS014wadiJgPX1XntMWNLq
Neutral +1 0 SpA Judgment 3HKOes after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 212+ SpD
None
AD_4nXeoW29mis0x9Gfkh_CCn8UisP8oO53VeHNBY6jrdg8fEX9r3lBUdLR_e8R73jg_04HTOSGL_DylunS8m-r1CqsRsGNyxD1B9-z1y6gJnnbivYEfAcAVzbNAw3ce7ycp9UlTzzlkNFsi3dd_5hUk4bN1k2PZ
AD_4nXf286j6stt1l1g5TiBRr00_xfJGsEfzAph_2uVMMuU1ZQVWS0VAamJ7FbcT2oKlKy_NNQ3O6F3sJpa10k71QHnA9qFPyYEbq6f7gxh0Z8FAwGutqfIK-KNMdRcgfEaPcomntwUsumZ17t-AmOEeiYOSmtlJ
Survives -2 252 SpA Psycho Boost after Stealth Rock + 1 Layer of Spikes
248 HP / 216+ SpD
None
AD_4nXfIvFBkvOa8TxbktOO9B6805rfyamqtvpkTl8n_-ESv5P8q5LBrE7GcIwFYggFYXss8OSWDznznqVXbzkZMgxOxavQwEaClgSzIsNQVEId1gRPzqBn9QkNTpSc_38ixDgyjill--trr4yMfzx9dNIqj1GE_
Survives 252+ SpA Origin Pulse after Stealth Rock + 1 layer of Spikes
248 HP / 240+ SpD
None
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Oblivion Wing 4HKOes
248 HP / 248+ SpD
None
AD_4nXeKA8lxFu8Glp8p76YI6UWOD47APSvcahOFwNYNuPOoI4eHUh3TPwa1tRrHUQEvmmjrJTU6EUxPH1BgvsaRVdPyt3XD59IAx3ZA-UH4OCfLaqFy833YpZH6G3V0lMooG0Fes62BqKfb9Ts_CSxzkCiKUPSu
AD_4nXc9arw-dWbwkunojEMV_vfYm3cJLLDIvzINwsQhvrOmaZue5GuMtcMr8MIuEI53fB_lBVSc3HhDsE7M0wWEFPgOTpJ_xH-IWpsDtWZXVAN5Lv2-Wx8eCxoQ3F6FVDP9D1qlcrK4_dtA27-9vt95nuuom9dn
AD_4nXdFCWppmIKp_KfoCRmhzY_djwP6PGAejWdXlOCD0Gc3rHHWUn_-7a2ah6hePW-zWMoSExK-9RbAkYKNlmZHeBUHcBveCgXrK_0VsPpfjdRlNAxbjOP8kehT_0WByW5Duu8JxDgS014wadiJgPX1XntMWNLq
Neutral 0 SpA Judgment 5HKOes


Can’t speak for anyone else, but at least Bob, Adem, and myself are Fez believers. It’d probably be better if Bob elaborated on his own views as he has been using a different set (Play Rough + Toxic) to Adem and I (Moonblast + Acid Spray). Bob certainly has his reasons for preferring that set, but I’m not sure what they are and I don’t fully understand the vision. So speaking for myself since Adem and I have run slightly different EV spreads and a different tera type and as I don’t think Adem has shared her team publicly I don’t intend to, but we ended up with very similar structures.

The best mon to compare Fez to is Ferrothorn imo. Why is Ferrothorn B+ with some votes for A- in the last couple of slates despite use that is close to what you’d expect from a C/C+ rank level mon? For all its flaws, Grass is a fantastic defensive type in this tier due to the Water + Ground resist. Its had a solid niche in every Ubers tier because checking Kyogre or Primal Kyogre is incredibly difficult and it is capable of doing this + a very solid support/utility movepool. This is really valuable for the bulkier balance it tends to find itself on as they tend to struggle a fair bit with Primal Kyogre. Leech Seed is functionally unblockable + Spikes force progress. Power Whip hits hard enough into what it needs to. Yeah it gets cooked by a lot of stuff, but the defensive role compression Ferrothorn provides makes handling those mons easier.

It isn’t a full apple to apples comparison, but Fezandipiti does have similar vibes. It has really good role compression without suffering from the passivity that limits otherwise potentially good mons. It has quite good special bulk, a fair bit more than Ferro (88/125 v 74/116) really compliments its defensive profile. A Dragon immunity and a Dark/Fairy resistance is fantastic in this metagame, especially given that these are primarily coming from special attackers.

That is the primary attraction, but there are some other benefits which are more situational or just nice to have. The 4x resist is situationally nice for Marshadow locked into Low Kick or to slow pivot against Play Rough / Close Combat Zacian-C. A Toxic Spikes absorber which has no qualms about switching into Eternatus is a more consistent and practical benefit. At this point, this is still theorymon and even if something has a lot of things going for it, they don’t matter all that much if it struggles to leverage them in-game.

An example of this that comes to mind is defensive Lunala. Boots means it can consistently have Shadow Shield active and on paper it should at least see sporadic use with its kit as a Defogger or Phaser. A 4x Ghost and Dark weakness is really rough for a slow defensive mon in a metagame ruled by Marshadow, Arceus-Dark, and Yveltal. Tera certainly solves this, but defensive Lunala is stuck between a rock and a hard place as Tera Fairy is great for these mons + Giratina-O, but still leaves Lunala vulnerable to the ubiquitous Toxic. Tera Poison or Steel obviously solves that, but means Lunala no longer checks Primal Groudon or Zygarde, le raison d'être to use it. This has relegated defensive Lunala to a fringe viable set due to requiring a lot of support in the builder to reach its full potential. Furthermore, even after all this investment in the builder, defensive Lunala often requires a lot of skill and precision to effectively use in battle. There is a reason why Entrocefalo is the only person who has brought it to a tournament this year.

So lets get back to Fez after that detour. Despite this rambling, I have not really said much beyond it has a decent defensive profile and special bulk. The best place to start is looking at what niche/roles Fezandipiti fills by defining this. Fezandipiti is primarily aiming to be a special wall which directly handles many mons that tend to give bulkier balance teams a lot of trouble due to avoiding the trappings of passivity courtesy of reliable recovery and its typing while U-turn making it a surprisingly effective pivot.

Although not a trailblazer, 99 Speed is near perfect and is crucial in making Fez an effective pivot. Uninvested Fez sits as 234 Speed which outpaces the omnipresent 216 Speed at which much of the defensive metagame sits. Due to the low investment, many mons will invest a few EVs in Speed to creep Paralyzed Zacian-C. Hitting 234 Speed means that Fez is likely to outpace these mons as the highest realistic application is Primal Groudon hitting 229 Speed for -1 342 Speed Arceus formes or Giratina-O creeping uninvested Zygarde. As Fez cannot 1v1 any of these mons, it still provides value via Toxic Chain procs as it U-Turns into a teammate which can while still reaping the benefits of being a slow pivot.

Toxic is the strongest status condition and non-HO teams nearly always have one, if not multiple Toxic users. However, the ability to passively spread Toxic and pivot is not nearly enough to justify a placement on a team. Over the last serval months nearly every set that has risen to prominence punishes this style of play – so Fez needs to more. Defensive Steel-types may not be real, but Tera Poison is. No matter what Fez does, it is always going to matchup poorly into HO, so it needs to be pulling its weight against other playstyles. This is not a death sentence as Pokémon such as Alomomola or Gothitelle have notoriously poor matchups into HO but retain valuable niches in spite of this.

Fezandipiti isn’t healing up teammates or uncompetitively removing core defensive pieces, so what is it bringing to the table? Well there are a fair few mons and sets that have skyrocketed to the forefront of the metagame since Xerneas was banned in large part due to their blend of offensive and defensive utility. This makes them particularly potent against the bulkier balance teams that Fezandipiti is vying for a slot on. Fortunately for Fez, it completely shuts them down with Moonblast + Acid Spray.

This is le raison d'être and where all those positive traits come together to create something that is not just a funny shitmon amongst Ubers, but legitimately viable. For me, part of the initial allure of Fez is how it utterly stonewalls Taunt Calm Mind Arceus-Dark/Fairy. Its stellar special bulk and resistances means that it is utterly unfazed by the Taunt which shuts down otherwise fine counterplay. Switching to a Toxic absorber such as Ho-Oh or Eternatus just lets Fez U-Turn on out and in the case of Ho-Oh, get two chances to proc Toxic Chain and leave it at –2 SpD as it gets on out.

Although Arceus-Dark and Fairy commonly run Tera Poison, this is not much of a concern as Deoxys-A is a great partner and forces a lose-lose situation. They are never breaking through Fez anyways, but now they are easy picking for Deoxys-A. Although not the intended target, Tera Grass also enables Fez to do the same against Calm Mind Arceus-Ground/Water. If this was all Fez could do, I would not glaze it nearly to extent I have. This would probably be enough to get it ranked anyways, but I’m not putting in this amount of time and energy for a C- mon. So what else is it good for?

Well the last major set that has seen a glow-up is wallbreaker Eternatus. Fez easily switches in and 1v1s as +1 Fire Blast tops out at 38%. Between Moonblast having a 50% chance to nullify any boosts and Eternatus’s inaccurate moves Fez fairly reliably beats it. It can also just not bother with any of this and U-Turn out to Deoxys-A which OHKOes with Psycho Boost even after Tera or safely bring in Ho-Oh to phase if that is used.

While Fez easily breaks defensive Eternatus, it handles the Tera Dragon Meteor Beam sets that have become staples on HO in a similar manner. Just as, if not more importantly for the HO matchup, it easily 1v1s the obscenely oppressive LO Yveltal. While Yveltal can Tera Fire to win the trade, this heavily favours the Fez user as Yveltal is still likely to be statused and left at low HP even if it avoids a Moonblast drop. Given that these tend to be the two biggest struggles for bulkier balance teams against HO, relieving this pressure from the rest of the defensive core is invaluable.

The elephant in the room is Dragon Dance Zygarde. Its best matchup tends to be slower paced balance teams against which it can often find the turn it needs to spiral out of control. However, because Fez effortlessly handles Coil Zygarde’s most common counterplay in Taunt Arceus formes, it is very easy to slot Tera Fairy onto that and you have the blanket physical wall which easily switches into most of the stuff that threatens Fez. Deoxys-A also comes in useful once again as it outspeeds and OHKOes it after Dragon Dance in a pinch if the opportunity presents itself.

Notably, this does leave blind spots to Zacian-C and Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM. The former is not much of a concern as Primal Groudon + the Defogger should able to handle that. Deoxys-A also does after tera (GOAT partner). Necrozma-DM is a bit more of an issue, but it is still reasonably manageable. Primal Groudon will handle it, Deoxys-A revenges it, and your Defogger will soft check it with Tera.

As I’ve written this I’ve become progressively enamoured by Fez. Not only does it need what it needs to reliably, its consistent and does not require Tera to do so. Not needing to Tera to do any of this means that the rest of the team can be quite flexible in how they address the threats in front of them. Oh, and it is a defensive mon which isn’t trapped by Gothitelle which is always nice.

The main thing with Fez I’m unsure about is its tera type. I have Tera Grass and the defence investment lets it survive Double Dance Primal Groudon’s Precipice Blades, but that was mostly because it has a few EVs. Tera Grass is pretty nice defensively, but it isn’t as though that calc really matters. It is also nice against Arceus-Ground/Water and offensive Primal Kyogre since Fez can stomach a +1 Ice Beam despite not wanting to switch-in. It also lets it 1v1 Coil Zygarde pretty easily. This is all stuff that is quite nice in theory, but Fez’s niche is absolutely carried by its base typing, so this isn’t something it wants to be doing. As with any mon that doesn’t need tera, Tera Dark is probably worth considering for Ultra Necrozma.

In July when I first started exploring Fez I thought its potential was C, C+ at best. I’ve been pheasantly surprised the more I’ve experimented with it and honestly B- or even B doesn’t seem outlandish. I initially compared it to Ferrothorn, but Garganacl seems more apt when it comes to how it plays in game. Fez is probably too specific to ever grace B+, but it feels as though there is a lot of untapped potential. Arceus-Grass + Fez is definitely something I need to build. 2K words is enough yapping about a mon that is currently UR.
 
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A new VR slate is on the horizon so submit your nominations in the next week if you want them to be considered! There is no guarantee that they will be considered for this slate. Also Bobsican recently added rank descriptions which can be found in the OP.

Discussion points

:arceus-dark:Last slate voters were split between A+ and S- so there was no change. What are your thoughts?

:arceus-fairy:Does competition from Arceus-Dark and the stress it puts on its teammates to handle DD Necrozma-DM and find Ultra Necrozma counterplay elsewhere limiting Arceus-Fairy's splashabilty for it to maintain A+?

:giratina-origin: Giratina-O has unfortnately had a rough showing in the past few tournaments. A large reason for its rise to A+ initially was due to Alomomola structures in addition to its traditional place on bulky offense. Are these structures currently strong enough for Giratina-O to maintain its current A+ ranking or is it more at home in A?

:smeargle: Last slate voters were split between B and B- so no change occured. What do you think?

:groudon-primal::zygarde-complete::Eternatus: Over the last two slates both Zygarde and Eternatus received a few votes for S+. This has lead to some broader discussion on whether or not one or both of these two deserve to join Primal Groudon. What do you think?

Edit: Did this on mobile and didn't notice the Arceus-Fairy / Giratina-O sections were unfinished.
 
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:mew::sv/mew::mew:Mew: UR -> C-

Okay, this may sound ridiculous, especially as there's :mewtwo-mega-y:Mega Mewtwo Y and a ton of other Psychic-types as I've noted in a recently released article more than bringing it competition. What makes Mew stick out from other Psychic-types (in particular :gothitelle:Gothitelle) is its decent Speed tier letting it compress as a :zygarde:Zygarde and :smeargle:Smeargle check by fitting a sufficiently fast Substitute, which also helps it to block status and phazing, as its role I'm proposing for it is not an outclassed setup sweeper or a gimmicky lead that'd probably be done better by :glimmora:Glimmora or even :garchomp:Garchomp, but instead a Imposter+Transform trapper, letting it force foes to spam Struggle then faint while also retaining use afterwards depending on what it transformed into, and by extension also acting as a setup check when it comes to slower foes, overall being a stallbreaker that retains use against offense.

My latest replay with it in a tourmanent shows its use well.

Also, regarding Play Rough + Toxic :fezandipiti:Fezandipiti, after using it for a while, I've noticed that it's really worse than the more standard Acid Spray + Moonblast variant, especially as thanks to Moonblast's slightly higher BP, PP, and most foes it wants to hit with that leaning defensively more on the physical side, resulting on that being a netically better move even skipping Acid Spray letting it overwhelm Calm Mind Arceus formes, especially as its lack of contact also eases the matchup against foes like :ferrothorn:Ferrothorn. Toxic ensuring a bad poisoning inducement is situationally nice, but it's rather difficult to justify over the more reliable standard combination for the before-mentioned reasons for its broader use with almost minimal loss out of Toxic Chain.
 
Eternatus S -> S+
This thing just does it all. In my opinion, at least half of all hyper offense teams should use it. It is fantastic on both bulky offense and balance. It is even solid on stall. It is incredibly splash able and very powerful. In my eyes, it is easily the second best pokemon in the tier, and worthy of S+.
 
Alright, now to propose something that will somehow be harder to convince people of than that Eternatus is S+.


Necrozma-Ultra A -> A+

A lot of people have been saying that it should drop instead of rise, and I can see why. However, I feel like it is much better than people give it credit for. A lot of people just see it as the offensive powerhouse that it is, and so the rise of Arceus-Dark seems like it would nullify it on any team that has it. However, what not enough people talk about that I find is arguably more important than its offensive capabilities is its defensive ones. Having NDM as a base is obviously ridiculous, but what pushes it over the top is its ability to Ultra Burst. This essentially allows it to terastalize without needing to burn tera. In order to offensively check Ultra Necrozma reliably, you have to be able to OHKO both forms with one attack, which is very rare. Its essentially the principle behind terastalization, but unlike tera, Ultra Necrozma is free to do it whenever at no cost to its teammates. This makes it incredibly hard to play against, as unless you are one of the few things that reliably offensively or defensively checks it, you are forced into a 50/50. And while having something in the back that defensively checks it helps, all that means is that you either lose momentum and have to switch out, or have to risk losing your active pokemon. Even just the threat of Ultra Necrozma can put you in a great position. For example, you can send it in on something that fails to check it, and then switch to Marshadow since you know they will switch to Arceus-Dark. Now they have to switch out against Marshadow, made even harder by the fact that switching to Arceus Dark is obviously not an option. I think Ultra Necrozma is at least A+ material.
 
Eternatus S -> S+
This thing just does it all. In my opinion, at least half of all hyper offense teams should use it. It is fantastic on both bulky offense and balance. It is even solid on stall. It is incredibly splash able and very powerful. In my eyes, it is easily the second best pokemon in the tier, and worthy of S+.
Personally I'd have it at #3, but it is very difficult to justify it any lower than that. It comes down to how you view Eternatus's splashability compared the necessary roles that Zygarde compresses defensively. Over the past few months I'd say there have been certain points where one could make an argument for Yveltal or Ho-Oh in that #3 slot over one of Zygarde or Eternatus, but that is much harder to do currently. I still think Ho-Oh is on par with Eternatus due to how much the defensive sets have fallen off, but even as Ho-Oh's biggest stan I can't say I'd rank it higher than Eternatus and definitely wouldn't rank it over Zygarde.

Alright, now to propose something that will somehow be harder to convince people of than that Eternatus is S+.


Necrozma-Ultra A -> A+

A lot of people have been saying that it should drop instead of rise, and I can see why.
Honestly Eternatus being S+ isn't something that would receive much pushback. I doubt either Eternatus or Zygarde will end up in S+, but they will likely get at least a few votes each. I'm one of the people that think Ultra Necrozma should probably (not 100% sure atm) drop to A-, but figured it would be better to post here than one liners on discord.

However, I feel like it is much better than people give it credit for.
I don't think anyone has an aversion to giving Ultra Necrozma credit. Much of the reason I think it is more at home in A- is that it is so scary it forces its counterplay onto teams, but does not have the means to meaningfully threaten it. This leads to a lot of reliance on support which is more in tune with A- rank even if it unquestionably does have the offensive presence of an A+ Pokémon.

However, what not enough people talk about that I find is arguably more important than its offensive capabilities is its defensive ones. Having NDM as a base is obviously ridiculous, but what pushes it over the top is its ability to Ultra Burst. This essentially allows it to terastalize without needing to burn tera. In order to offensively check Ultra Necrozma reliably, you have to be able to OHKO both forms with one attack, which is very rare. Its essentially the principle behind terastalization, but unlike tera, Ultra Necrozma is free to do it whenever at no cost to its teammates.
I don't think people overlook this at all and this plays a signficant reason in why it is so threatening. Against balance and bulky offense teams Ultra Necrozma will almost always have a setup opportunity in Primal Groudon because of this. Yes, the ability to OHKO both formes in one attack isn't something the one real Pokémon that can, Marshadow, can still be outsped even if the faster sets have fallen off. Arceus-Dark technically can, but even 252 HP / 252 Spe feels a bit frail at times so 92 SpA to allow Arceus-Dark to OHKO at +1 is not worth it. Realistically though, I'd say any variant of Arceus-Dark does the job well enough as +1 Earthquake doesn't 2HKO.

Not requiring terastallization is definitely a reason for why Ultra Necrozma is so strong, but in recent times taking up the Z-crystal on HO has proven to be something of an opportunity cost as Arceus-Ground, Chi-Yu, and to a lesser extent Ekiller have all proven themselves to be strong competition. If anything, there is an argument for Chi-Yu being better than Ultra Necrozma on Sticky Webs teams as it is a better wallbreaker and stallbreaker at the cost of being a worse sweeper.

This makes it incredibly hard to play against, as unless you are one of the few things that reliably offensively or defensively checks it, you are forced into a 50/50. And while having something in the back that defensively checks it helps, all that means is that you either lose momentum and have to switch out, or have to risk losing your active pokemon.
The Pokémon things I'd consider to be reliable checks to Ultra Necrozma are Marshadow and Arceus-Dark. This is because they do not rely on certain conditions to properly check Ultra Necrozma. I do think most people would consider Yveltal reliable counterplay, but its reliance on Tera and/or Sucker Punch mind games makes it unreliable in my eyes. Ultra Necrozma is such a threat that there is not much of a 50/50. If you're not relying on what is traditionally considered reliable counterplay the course of action is often to force it to Ultra Burst then use whatever Tera Dark mon you have. Yes, this isn't an ideal method of handling something, but given that Ultra Necrozma (at least the threatening sets) are HO exclusive this is part and parcel of playing against HO and not unique to Ultra Necrozma. The same applies to Pokémon such as Ekiller, Zacian-C as well. If anything it applies to them to an even larger degree.

Even just the threat of Ultra Necrozma can put you in a great position. For example, you can send it in on something that fails to check it, and then switch to Marshadow since you know they will switch to Arceus-Dark. Now they have to switch out against Marshadow, made even harder by the fact that switching to Arceus Dark is obviously not an option.
I'm not exactly sure how low in the VR you'd have to go for this to stop applying, but it is very low. Anything even in B- is going to likely force switches if positioned well and that is something that can be taken advantage of. As an aside, one of the biggest reasons I'm wholly against Ultra Necrozma in A+ is its near complete inability to fit on anything outside of HO. There is the Stealth Rock set that sees use once in a blue moon on BO but that is kind of it.

Being exclusive to one style isn't necessarily a dealbreaker, but as a Pokémon rises up through the ranks the ability fit on more playstyles and archetypes becomes increasingly important. A Pokémon can still be A+ without being immensely splashable if it makes up for it. In Ultra Necrozma's case HO would have be heads and shoulders above every other playstyle and Ultra Necrozma would have be nigh mandatory on just about every single HO archetype. HO isn't that strong at the moment and Ultra Necrozma is facing more competition than it ever has for a slot. I expect and won't be unhappy when Ultra Necrozma likely retains its A rank spot, but I view it as the best mon in A- at the moment. For what it is worth, these same reasons are why I am baffled that Arceus not only made it to A+, but remained there after a slate.


:groudon-primal: S+ -> S

I don't deny the fact that :eternatus: and :zygarde-complete: are on par with :groudon-primal:. In fact, Eternatus deserves a higher ranking than :groudon-primal:

However, personally, I think it's more reasonable to lower :groudon-primal: to S rather than raising :eternatus: to S+.
The discussion point was whether the gap had closed enough for them to move up. Primial Groudon is still unquestionably the best Pokémon in the tier imo, but the gap has closed somewhat. If you do think the gap is close enough than all three being S rank is quite reasonable. Personally, my S+/S would be Groudon>Zygarde>>Eternatus/Ho-Oh>Yveltal with Ho-Oh being borderline S/S-. Would you mind expanding on your thoughts about Primal Groudon/Zygarde/Eternatus and S+/S? I don't think there is anything wrong with your view, but I am interested in how you arrived at it.
 
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:groudon-primal: Primal Groudon
S+->S

:groudon-primal: Primal Groudon's exceptional role compression and its ability to check a significant portion of the tier are undoubtedly impressive. These unique strengths make it understandable why many players rank this Pokémon in the S+ tier.

However, a notable number of players still refrain from using :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon due to its overburdened roles and unreliable move accuracy

Overburdened Roles​

:groudon-primal:Primal Groudon's "exceptional role compression" ironically leads to the problem of overburdened roles.

Balance teams often rely heavily on :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon to handle major threats like :kyogre-primal: Primal Kyogre or :zacian-crowned: Zacian.
However, if :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon is taken down, even with alternative plans in place, the match often ends in a 6-0 loss.

This is especially problematic for :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon, which cannot use :heavy-duty-boots: Heavy-Duty Boots and lacks reliable recovery options, making it difficult to sustain its performance under such pressure.


Accuracy Issues​

The accuracy of its moves is one of the main reasons many players choose not to use :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon. Its key moves, Overheat and Precipice Blades, are notoriously unreliable and difficult to trust.

Among the top-tier Pokémon, :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon is one of the few whose primary STAB moves suffer from significant accuracy issues. (While Pokémon like :kyogre-primal: Primal Kyogre or :marshadow: Marshadow might face similar problems with certain sets, these are not universal concerns.)

This issue is closely tied to the previously mentioned role overload. For a Pokémon burdened with excessive responsibilities, losing a turn due to an accuracy failure is a critical flaw that can jeopardize the stability of the entire team.



In the 10-year history of :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon, the issues mentioned above have remained unresolved and continue to be a persistent weakness. Team :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon might argue, "Role overload is a problem every Pokémon faces, and accuracy is merely a minor inconvenience."

While role overload could be argued to be something that can be overcome through team building or skill (though I belong to the faction that believes it has crossed the deadline), personally, I find it hard to accept a Pokémon with accuracy issues holding an S+ rank.
 
Thanks for expanding on your thoughts! It is always great to see why people think what they do. I do get where you are coming from, but ultimately disagree with your reasoning.
However, a notable number of players still refrain from using :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon due to its overburdened roles and unreliable move accuracy
Would you mind expanding on this? There are certainly players who do not frequently use Primal Groudon. Bobsican is one that comes to mind...I think he actively attempts to make teams without it, though he can correct me if I am wrong. However, Bob still acknowledges the immense holes that need to be filled when dropping Primal Groudon. Consequently, he often limits himself to the type of structures that he both enjoys using and can afford to drop Primal Groudon. This tends to be incredibly fat balances or semistalls which are incredibly limited structurally due to the scarce number of options to fill Primal Groudon's roles and the constraints imposed by these Pokemon's flaws. I.e. Blissey to counter offensive Primal Kyogre and physically defensive Rocky Helmet Alomomola as Zacian-C counterplay so it can Flip Turn out to something like Ditto to revenge kill.

The point isn't to do some sort of analysis on Bob's semistalls, but to use them as an example of what dropping Primal Groudon generally means outside of hyper offense. The roles it fills are things every team needs and Primal Groudon compresses them into one mon which allows for more variation throughout the rest of the team. Primal Groudon doesn't do these things perfectly, but with additional soft counterplay teams should generally be fine.

Dropping some of the notable players names would be fantastic. I definitely believe that a good player can have lots of success without using Primal Groudon with the caveat that they primarily enjoy and use playstyles where Primal Groudon either is not needed or is not a good fit. Primal Groudon obviously does not fit on stall, but at the same time stall is not very good for a myriad of reasons and using Primal Groudon is not among them.

The biggest reason imo that Primal Groudon could drop to S is that not only is that it not required on hyper offense, it ranges from decentish to bad on most HO archetypes. HO is a good, but not dominant playstyle. While HO may not be my cup of tea, a player who near exclusively uses HO is not going to have a lot of use for Primal Groudon. A player such as 0.5Mirror, and to a lesser extent, Emoxu9 who builds most of their teams, comes to mind. Regardless, Primal Groudon regularly floating around 70-80% use in tournament and still getting 50% use on ladder which is generally bad and overrun by HO and stall which don't use it anyways makes me question the validity of this statement.

Overburdened Roles​

:groudon-primal:Primal Groudon's "exceptional role compression" ironically leads to the problem of overburdened roles.

Balance teams often rely heavily on :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon to handle major threats like :kyogre-primal: Primal Kyogre or :zacian-crowned: Zacian.
However, if :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon is taken down, even with alternative plans in place, the match often ends in a 6-0 loss.

This is especially problematic for :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon, which cannot use :heavy-duty-boots: Heavy-Duty Boots and lacks reliable recovery options, making it difficult to sustain its performance under such pressure.
This is a very narrow-minded of looking at Primal Groudon's role and why it is considered S+ imo. Does Primal Groudon have flaws? Absolutely, its lack of recovery and item restriction as you’ve pointed out are flaws. I’d add its serviceable, but middling special bulk to that. These flaws are relatively minor and a huge part of what keeps Primal Groudon balanced rather than AG material.

I’m not really sure how Primal Groudon hard checking Primal Kyogre and Zacian-C as opposed to countering them is a flaw when it is an extremely good check. Part of what makes these two such great Pokémon is their efficacy in dismantling much of the defensive and offensive portions of the metagame. Both Primal Kyogre and Zacian-C have a fairly limited pool of checks, yet alone Pokémon which are solid checks to both.

Not only can Primal Groudon do this, it is far from passive due to its solid utility / support movepool and high powered STABs. Primal Groudon isn’t switching into either endlessly, but is more than sufficient as a stopgap. Zacian-C is forced into Tera Blast Ground if it wants to get past Primal Groudon consistently as +3 Tera Fighting Close Combat only has a low roll to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Zacian-C would really prefer to run Tera Fighting as the other primary target, defensive Necrozma-DM, only exists on the fringes of the metagame.

This means that simply fitting a ground-immune Zacian-C check alongside Primal Groudon sufficiently contains Zacian-C. Because Primal Groudon does not tera, Pokémon such as Ho-Oh or Giratina-O can and either cripple or remove Zacian-C. Primal Groudon not being able to tera suck for it personally, but it would likely be banned if it still could, and its absence would make the tier far worse without a handful of bans.

This ability to unconditionally blanket check Zacian-C isn’t really something that teams have access to outside of stall as even Tera Blast Ground Zacian-C does need a Swords Dance or a fair bit of chip to OHKO defensive Primal Groudon. Obviously other checks to exist, but they are far more exploitable such as Tera Water Zygarde or require Zacian-C to be running specific moves such as Ditto or have already popped tera such as Deoxys-A. Furthermore, a lot of the options for checking Zacian-C can’t safely switch-in and are not very splashable. Even though Tera Water Zygarde survives any +3 attack, any chip, even Stealth Rock puts it in range and putting some Speed EVs to outpace paralyzed Zacian-C means it has to be at full. That is also assuming Zygarde is using Glare and not Dragon Tail. Primal Groudon allowing Zygarde to choose whether or not it wants to deal with Zacian-C, making it a significantly more effective physical wall as the option is always there if needed rather than being forced into it.

Handling Primal Kyogre on balance or bulky offense is quite different to checking Zacian-C as it is not difficult to offensively check, but this comes with the distinction of being nightmarish to check defensively. This is due most Primal Kyogre checks only being able check either the defensive or offensive set. Even Ferrothorn, the gold standard of Kyogre counterplay, is not a full defensive Primal Kyogre counter as Scald burns and Power Whip’s miss chance means Primal Kyogre has decent odds to eventually break through. The Blobs to technically counter Primal Kyogre, but teammates only need to absorb a few Seismic Tosses and Confides for it to break through.

Although I wouldn’t consider Primal Groudon a great wallbreaker Primal Kyogre answer, it is serviceable and far better and less restrictive than anything that would replace it. Simply cutting off the weather is often enough. Despite wallbreaker Primal Kyogre being an immense offensive threat, it is somewhat difficult to get onto the field and is quite squishy as even uninvested Precipice Blades OHKOes after two rounds of Stealth Rock. If its weather is cut off, other formes of defensive counterplay such as Calm Mind Arceus formes are far more consistent as they can setup on Primal Kyogre as opposed to waiting for an Origin Pulse miss which may never come.

Against the offensive teams wallbreaker Primal Kyogre is usually found on a softer check is often enough as the more offensive Pokémon part of balance and bulky offense structures such as Marshadow, Rayquaza, and Zacian-C all OHKO it. Even if both of Primal Kyogre and Zacian-C show up, as is common on HO, especially on Sticky Web teams, Primal Groudon being good into both Pokémon with just Precipice Blades allows for Primal Groudon to handle one to enable the rest of the team to play around the other significantly more easily.

Due to only needing 248 HP / 68+ Def / 40 SpD and Precipice Blades to perform this role consistently, Primal Groudon is left with a lot of flexibility in both its EV spread and moveslot to mould them to best support its team. For example, 140+ Def removes the roll for +3 Tera Fighting Close Combat to OHKO after Spike while also better checking Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM – a surprisingly slept on threat. Maybe you want to 2HKO defensive Primal Kyogre or Calm Mind Arceus formes after Stealth Rock – slap on 60 or 72 Attack EVs while 60 SpA OHKOes Life Orb Yveltal after a round of Life Orb chip with Overheat.

Primal Groudon is also far and away the best Stealth Rock setter in the tier while also being a serviceable Spikes setter as it can beat every hazard removal option in the tier long-term. Giratina-O will succumb to Toxic while Giratina will be forced to rest eventually. If you want a phasing option on hazard stacking teams you can use Dragon Tail or Roar.

This flexibility is what makes Primal Groudon S+ and what makes it so difficult for Pokémon to join it there and difficult to drop a subrank. This is also just scratching the surface as it is only covering the defensive set and doesn’t get into things such as its relationship with Eternatus and Marshadow. The defensive set may be the most common, but other sets are viable even if most of them outside of Utility SD are somewhat niche.

If you’re trying to get Primal Groudon to do everything it will get overwhelmed as you say. However, in nearly every matchup it will probably do something and that something is likely to be incredibly valuable. The only Pokémon that really comes close to providing this amalgamation of consistent offensive / defensive value both in the teambuilder and in game is Zygarde. Even then, this is between both of its sets as Coil lacks the ability to exert immediate offensive pressure while Dragon Dance has little in the way of defensive utility. There was a strong argument for Eternatus during the summer, but since then the decline of defensive sets outside of stall is a serious issue for its overall viability despite becoming a staple on hyper offense.

Accuracy Issues​

The accuracy of its moves is one of the main reasons many players choose not to use :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon. Its key moves, Overheat and Precipice Blades, are notoriously unreliable and difficult to trust.

Among the top-tier Pokémon, :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon is one of the few whose primary STAB moves suffer from significant accuracy issues. (While Pokémon like :kyogre-primal: Primal Kyogre or :marshadow: Marshadow might face similar problems with certain sets, these are not universal concerns.)

This issue is closely tied to the previously mentioned role overload. For a Pokémon burdened with excessive responsibilities, losing a turn due to an accuracy failure is a critical flaw that can jeopardize the stability of the entire team.



In the 10-year history of :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon, the issues mentioned above have remained unresolved and continue to be a persistent weakness. Team :groudon-primal: Primal Groudon might argue, "Role overload is a problem every Pokémon faces, and accuracy is merely a minor inconvenience."

While role overload could be argued to be something that can be overcome through team building or skill (though I belong to the faction that believes it has crossed the deadline), personally, I find it hard to accept a Pokémon with accuracy issues holding an S+ rank.
This bit is going to be a lot shorter. We have all lost games due to moves missing. If a move isn’t 100% accurate at some point it can and will screw you over at some point. Case in point, I lost my NDBD Week 1 game largely due to Sacred Fire missing T1 which in conjunction with a T2 paralysis allowed for 3 layers of Spikes to go up. This allowed a Double Dance Primal Groudon to OHKO my Coil Zygarde which it would have phased it. That Primal Groudon would go on to sweep while not missing a single Precipice Blades. Shit happens. While misses may be infuriating at the time, it generally balances out in the long run.

It isn’t as though Primal Groudon is having to chose between Precipice Blades and some mediocre move with perfect accuracy such as Magnitude or Dig. Earthquake is right there and has the gold standard for a good move for as long as Pokémon has existed.

So why doesn’t it see any significant level of use in high level play? Earthquake, great as it is, misses out on a shocking number of damage thresholds that Precipice Blades hits. Yes that 85% accuracy (or 90% in the case of Overheat) will screw you over from time to time. However, running Earthquake results in losing far more games due as a 0% chance to KO the target is far worse than the 15% chance to miss.

If these moves were Focus Blast levels of accurate I would agree, but 85% or 90% is a far cry from 70%. I’m not sure where my threshold would be for where it is reasonable to take this into account, but it would be lower than 85% or 90% accurate. For comparison, Toxic, which is at worst, probably the fourth best move in this tier, is 90% accurate which doesn’t face nearly the same criticisms.

What I find surprising is how Primal Groudon is seemingly uniquely criticised for the inaccuracy of its moves when the majority of Pokémon in NDUbers regularly rely on moves with imperfect accuracy. Quite a few of these are as if not more impactful than Primal Groudon missing a move. You’ve mentioned Primal Kyogre and Marshadow, when using a Water-type attack into a Primal Groudon switch-in is functionally the same as missing. Likewise Marshadow missing a Poltergeist is incredibly relevant when it happens given the progress it forces in conjunction with Marshadow’s pitiful bulk which likely means it is getting OHKOed.

It isn’t as though this is limited to these Pokémon either. Eternatus, which you rate more highly than Primal Groudon, is just as if not more reliant on Meteor Beam hitting. Eternatus’s current S-rank placement is mostly carried by its offensive sets which are wholly reliant on Meteor Beam hitting as a miss enables its main target in Ho-Oh to either phase or cripple it with Thunder Wave. Without Meteor Beam I’m sceptical Eternatus would even be an A+ Pokémon.

Eternatus is a case where players have accepted that a slight accuracy trade off is well worth the power boost. Not with Meteor Beam, but its Fire-type coverage of choice on these sets. Namely, Eternatus cannot OHKO Zacian-C with +1 Flamethrower without the assistance of Tera Fire which locks it out of the otherwise superior Tera Dragon or Tera Fairy. Even if you want to use Tera Fire, Fire Blast is preferred as you can just use the Tera and OHKO Zacian-C without a boost. Hell even with Zygarde I’ve lost games due to missing a Dragon Tail against Extreme Killer Arceus which enabled it to setup and clean a chipped team.

‘Team Primal Groudon’ doesn’t refuse to acknowledge or handwave away the things you’ve brought up. ‘Team Primal Groudon’ doesn’t see these points as significant enough to penalize it for. No tier is required to have an S+ rank and it would be horrible precedent to do so. It should be given out with caution and extends beyond simply being the Pokémon in the metagame. Everyone has their own opinion what exactly constitutes S+, but a minimum standard of ‘your team is likely worse if you are not using this Pokémon’ is universal. Primal Groudon does have flaws, but they are so minimal and easily covered that this tends to happen naturally without even considering them throughout the teambuilding process. A Pokémon does not have to be GSC Snorlax to be S+ just like an Pokémon does not have to ORAS Mega Rayquaza or SV Calyrex-S levels of broken to be AG.
 
Another VR update!

:zygarde-complete:Zygarde-C: S -> S+
:arceus-dark:Arceus-Dark: A+ -> S-

:Ditto:Ditto: B -> B+
:chi-yu:Chi-Yu: B- -> B
:diancie-mega:Mega Diancie: B- -> B
:Smeargle:Smeargle: B- -> B+
:landorus-therian:Landorus-T: C+ -> B-
:kyurem-black:Kyurem-B: C+ -> B-

:Arceus-Rock:Arceus-Rock: C- -> C+
:ribombee:Ribombee: C- -> C

:Fezandipiti:Fezandipiti: UR -> B
:darmanitan-galar:Galarian Darmanitan: D -> C-
:mewtwo:Mewtwo: D -> C-
:venusaur-mega:Mega Venusaur: UR -> C-
:Kingambit:Kingambit: UR -> C-

:giratina-origin:Giratina-O: A+ -> A

:arceus-water:Arceus-Water: B+ -> B
:Garganacl:Garganacl: B -> B-
:basculegion:Basculegion-M: B -> B-
:blissey:Blissey: B -> B-

:arceus-ghost:Arceus-Ghost: C+ -> C
:tyranitar-mega:Mega Tyranitar: C+ -> C
:palkia-origin:Palkia-O: C+ -> C

:arceus-steel:Arceus-Steel: C- -> D
:heatran:Heatran: C- -> UR
:iron treads:Iron Treads: C- -> UR
:ursaluna-bloodmoon:Ursaluna-BM: C- -> D
:dialga:Dialga: C -> D

For any questions or mistakes found, feel free to DM me or entrocefalo. Full slate here.

Some may notice that there was some controversy within the voting for Pokemon like :wobbuffet:Wobbuffet, :arceus:Arceus and :arceus-water:Arceus-Water, do you think these could rise? Is there anything else that may fit another VR rank instead? Feel free to discuss.
 
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As per usual, these opinions are my own and not the VR council's. Below is my slate which is ordered within subranks outside of D/UR. The set VR goes down to B rank. Normally I'd have a little bit here about some metagame stuff, but I've yapped so much I'm concerned about the character limit. I'll probably talk about that in the metagame discussion thread sometime in the next few weeks, likely after NDBD. I'll edit this over the next few days as I'm sure there are a lot of grammar issues and the yapping can be made more concise.

tl;dr Suspect Shadow Tag. Suspect Ultra Necrozma. Ekiller in A+ is nuts. Fezandipiti is the GOAT.

S+: :groudon-primal::zygarde-complete:
S: :ho-oh:
S-::eternatus::yveltal::marshadow::arceus-dark:

A+: :kyogre-primal::zacian-crowned:
A: :arceus-fairy::necrozma-dusk-mane::arceus::giratina-origin:
A-:arceus-ground::necrozma-ultra::lunala::deoxys-attack::ditto::alomomola:

B+: :rayquaza::smeargle::ferrothorn::deoxys-speed::gothitelle::chien-pao::calyrex-ice:
B: :salamence-mega::chi-yu::fezandipiti::glimmora:
B-: :garganacl::diancie-mega::basculegion::pheromosa::kyurem-black::blissey::chansey::dondozo::giratina::landorus-therian:

C+: :arceus-water::arceus-grass::mewtwo-mega-y::tapu-lele::arceus-rock:
C: :arceus-flying::arceus-ghost::palkia-origin::shuckle::tyranitar-mega::ribombee::hatterene::grimmsnarl:
C-: :kingambit::venusaur-mega::zekrom::cresselia::melmetal::darmanitan-galar::mewtwo::wobbuffet:
UR/D: :heatran::arceus-steel::iron-treads::gholdengo::ursaluna-bloodmoon:

S+

:pmd/groudon-primal:Its Primal Groudon. What is there to say that has not been said? Lately I’ve been partial to 140+ Def on defensive Primal Groudon to remove the roll against Zacian-C after a Spike as I’ve found that Primal Groudon does not really need 192 SpD. Sure surviving a Deoxys-A Psycho Boost after Stealth Rock is nice, but realistically when is this ever going to be relevant? 40 SpD is my minimum benchmark for defensive Primal Kyogre and beyond that depends on whether Primal Groudon needs EVs elsewhere. Fortunately, it doesn’t often so it can be reasonably specially bulky. Another thing I’ve quite liked is 16 Spe EVs to outspeed Paralyzed Eternatus and 12 Spe does the same for Zacian-C if you’re not running Overheat. This is the last blurb I’ve written and I’m tired and yapped way too much. Primal Groudon is the true gatekeeper for S+ rather than the ranking definitions we’ve recently made. Even if a Pokémon, in this case Zygarde, fits under the definition of S+, it still feels weird to see it next to Primal Groudon. This would also be the case for Eternatus if it received the votes. Maybe we should just make a Primal Groudon tier?

:pmd/zygarde:
I was really on the fence about whether Zygarde should be S+ for a few reasons. The first is what constitutes S+? Zygarde does fit the ranking descriptions we made recently, but it does feel a bit awkward for it to share a rank with Primal Groudon. Zygarde is amazing, but Primal Groudon is better.

Primal Groudon is S+ in large part due to the immense defensive role compression it provides both in the teambuilder and in game. This is something that Zygarde shares. The defensive roles filled by the various permutations of Coil sets is not something that can be replaced in a single slot, arguably even multiple. Purely from a defensive perspective, Zygarde fills multiple invaluable roles with the most important being an actual switch-in to Marshadow and Primal Groudon. There is also Tera Fairy Zygarde being the only splashable defensive counterplay to Dragon Dance Zygarde.

Speaking of, Dragon Dance Zygarde is borderline unhealthy. There was a very good case to suspect it in the summer, but I think we’ve learned how to both build and play around it, but it is a demon. It flips the counterplay on most of Coil Zygarde’s counterplay, but requires a decent amount of skill and/or risk to reach its full potential as simply taking a hit while setting up often hamstrings it. Dragon Dance Zygarde is difficult to fit outside of offensive structures due to forgoing nearly all defensive utility. It can take a hit from most things, but not more than that. It really does not have all that much that it can safely setup on and is not great against HO outside of the lead slot.

The biggest argument against S+ is that Zygarde, amazing as it is, is not something that most teams are worse for if they drop it. It is a demon on screens, but otherwise does not fit on HO. It is decent on fat structures, but also not a necessity. Imo Zygarde should probably be on somewhere between 50%ish of teams which is a good deal less than Primal Groudon and Eternatus. However, it keeps the tier playable and for most bulky offense and balance its absence is felt to the nearly same degree as Primal Groudon. Its major flaw is being deadweight into stall, but given how easy stall is to beat this is damn minimal. Despite using Zygarde on probably 85% of my teams, I’m still somewhat on the fence over whether it is S+ or not, but figured I’d give the nod. The tier would be unplayable without Zygarde. The only other Pokémon I can say that about is Ho-Oh.

S

:pmd/ho-oh:I was quite surprised that Bob was the only other voter to put Ho-Oh in S. While defensive Ho-Oh may be in a bit of a rough patch, unlike Eternatus it is being replaced by offensive Ho-Oh rather than a different Pokémon. I’m not sure how we as a playerbase overlooked offensive Ho-Oh for such a long time. It reminds me of Calm Mind Arceus-Dark in that it still checks 90% of the same things, but is significantly less passive. Offensive Ho-Oh has even overtaken Giratina-O as my preferred hazard removal on bulky offense. It is a Pokémon that should be seriously considered on any team outside of hyper offense. It soft-checks nearly everything, but the one big thing it does not check well is Zacian-C. I do think this is manageable and well worth the cost of admission. Defensive Ho-Oh still has a place on some teams, but it is difficult to compensate for its inclination for passivity. It just turns into setup fodder for a lot of scary Pokémon. It doesn’t matter if you endlessly wall something if you can’t actually do anything back.
S-

:pmd/eternatus: Eternatus to S- is big. It feels weird. Offensive Eternatus is better than ever, but Eternatus has always been more than the sum of its sets. Its defensive sets have always made up a huge portion of its viability as they seemingly soft checked most of the metagame in some capacity and Toxic Spikes are strong generally, but especially so against hyper offense. This made what was often for all intents and purposes, otherwise a dead slot still able to contribute.

Eternatus has the reputation of being able to slot into just about any team. I’ve always felt that this sidestepped the far more important question of is Eternatus good on every team? I’ve long held the opinion that a lot of people rely on Eternatus as a crutch rather than include it because it is a good fit. It is rarely bad, but these days more frequently than ever it isn’t all that good on a lot of teams. I’d consider it near mandatory on stall as stall teams that drop Eternatus are worse than those that include it even if they are viable. Eternatus has even cemented itself as a staple on hyper offense teams due to absorbing Toxic Spikes and the ability to break through Calm Mind Arceus formes with Tera Dragon. Although this is great offensive Eternatus, it is bad for Eternatus as a whole given the degree to which defensive sets rely on Toxic Spikes.

This isn’t the only issue defensive sets face. They are stuck between a rock and a hard place as they’re never both fast and bulky enough. When running defensive Eternatus I prefer Heavy-Duty Boots with enough Speed for Marshadow. This provides a better matchup into Sticky Web teams as it can trade with Yveltal and outspeeding Marshadow is always nice. However, it now can’t switch-in to Marshadow. Sacrificing Speed for bulk doesn’t really change much as Marshadow can just Tera Ghost and still 2HKO. Now you also have the issue of being setup fodder for Taunt Calm Mind Arceus formes that don’t even need to pop Tera. They are also an annoyance for wallbreaker Eternatus as they are EVd to use it as setup fodder.

Defensive Eternatus reminds me a lot of Arceus-Ground in that it doesn’t matter if you can do a million things if you’re unable to do any of them well. Yes Eternatus might be great on the extreme playstyles, but it has had a lot of stumbles on everything in between. This is the main reason why I’m dropping it. Eternatus as a whole currently has too many flaws for S rank. It is still an excellent Pokémon, but it is no longer something you can just slap on a team without any consequences. I do like the more offensively inclined Toxic Spike sets, usually running Dragonium-Z. I also would not be surprised to find myself ranking Eternatus S rank in the very next slate. Eternatus is the definition of flexibility and I’m sure some small adaptation is just waiting to be discovered.

:pmd/yveltal: I do think there is a case to be made for Yveltal rising to S. Life Orb sets have warped the metagame around themselves while having just enough flexibility to shore up some otherwise problematic matchups. At this point it is the only mandatory Pokémon on Sticky Webs teams and is so effective at keeping those webs around that it has received some calls for a suspect. Life Orb Yveltal already has a minimal amount of defensive counterplay, but that shrinks even further when webs are up and it is likely the fastest Pokémon on the field. Pokémon has been around for nearly 30 years. There have been nine generations which have given us over a thousand Pokémon. The best one at removing webs against Yveltal is Choice Scarf Yveltal. The second best should not be Icy Wind Fezandipiti.

Life Orb Yveltal warping the metagame around itself has ironically made it harder to fit outside of hyper offense as these teams need to be able to handle Yveltal themselves defensively and it is hard easier to do so when it is not assisted by Sticky Web. Tera Fire has become the standard on Webs, but Tera Flying and Poison are my favourite personally. It hits hard enough to not need Tera Dark unless you’re relying on Sucker Punch. Choice Scarf sets are great if you need the exact role compression it provides, but garbage otherwise. Defensive is pretty decent as well, but I’m not the biggest fan personally.

:pmd/marshadow:Marshadow is the healthy kind of broken. It is a high skill high reward Pokémon where it has just enough bulk to afford an occasional screw up. If your team does not have a Zygarde or you’re not running stall you probably are not going to be happy to see a Choice Band Marshadow at preview. It is the perfect offensive role compression, at least with a Choice Band as Bulk Up is just ok and AoA is mid. Funnily enough the one HO mon it hates is Chi-Yu because that fish is on a diet so it takes a Low Kick. Marshadow is also a huge reason why Arceus-Ground has been seeing a lot of success on HO. Marshadow is the GOAT when used by someone who is good at battling unlike myself.

:pmd/arceus-dark: I am ecstatic that Arceus-Dark is finally getting the recognition it deserves and breaking into the S ranks. It has been there for quite some time imo, but I’m glad that opinion has become more commonplace. Arceus-Dark, to borrow a phrase from Blunder, is ‘literally Arceus.’ If you are building anything other than hyper offense Arceus-Dark will be an important part of the teambuilding process.

Either the team has Arceus-Dark, or you have to figure out how to replace the role compression Arceus-Dark provides. There is being the sole unconditional defensive check to Ultra Necrozma. Yveltal is a farce since it relies on Tera and/or Sucker Punch and gets deleted if it switches into Stone Edge. Arceus-Dark on the other hand is 3hkoed by +1 Earthquake with just 252 HP. You probably want to find another Ghost resist so that Marshadow has to consider which move it is going to click. You also have to figure out how to address whatever offensive shortcomings of the Calm Mind Arceus forme that is replacing it since all of the alternatives have pretty significant issues and so forth.

It should be clear, but this is the Calm Mind set. The defensive set is, in my opinion, garbage on most teams outside of stall. Garbage would be putting it kindly because of how many people seem to like combining defensive Arceus-Dark with Coil Zygarde when all this does is make two otherwise excellent Pokémon look horrible due how easily they are overwhelmed by the same wallbreakers. I’m not a fan of defensive Arceus-Dark outside of stall, but one of the reasons to use it is as a physical wall alongside Dragon Dance Zygarde. Both can be offensive, one can be offensive, but if both are defensive the team is likely too passive.

A+

:pmd/kyogre-primal: Pokémon and sets come and go, but the eternal constant seems to be my slate starting with Primal Kyogre at S-/A+. A player’s opinion on Primal Kyogre seems to serve as a barometer for what playstyle they prefer. Everyone acknowledges that Primal Kyogre is great, but opinions start to diverge when discussing exactly how good Primal Kyogre is and whether it is oppressive.

If you prefer offense, Primal Kyogre is just a nice tool in the toolbox. It is a great Pokémon, especially on Sticky Web teams, and on offense in general. It might be annoying a times, but offensively checking Primal Kyogre has never been much of a hassle.

However, if you prefer balance or bulkier playstyles…Primal Kyogre is nothing short of a demon. Offensive sets are so powerful that they make you forget that Water is kind of a shitty STAB in this tier while defensive Primal Kyogre outlasts most of its supposed counterplay as even Ferrothorn struggles without Tera Grass due to Scald burns. Thankfully, the set tends to be fairly obvious, making it easy to gameplan at team preview.

This doesn’t make dealing with Primal Kyogre any more pleasant, but it is at least manageable. I find it funny how overlooked Primal Kyogre tends to be as its been spending the entire generation sitting at the top of A+. Every other highly ranked Pokémon receives a fair amount of discussion, but Primal Kyogre is just sitting there doing its thing. It is a shame because I think Primal Kyogre is one of the more interesting Pokémon in the tier thanks to a near unparalleled ability to force progress and the synergies it has with most of the other top Pokémon.

:pmd/zacian-crowned: I’m still lower on Zacian-C than most, but recently have come to something of a crossroads. Zacian-C’s biggest strength is its matchup against offense due to its speed, power, and reliance to priority. It is good against offense without a boost and deadly with one. However, Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground has shown itself to very good on these same structures and its matchup against Zacian-C compared to Ekiller is a significant reason why. Chi-Yu on Sticky Web teams is another such Pokémon.

Instead of running offenses which have better matchups against Zacian-C, people seem to just ignore it and attempt to outplay or prevent it from doing anything via momentum or offensive pressure. In my opinion this has lead to Zacian-C’s tournament success significantly overrepresenting its viability. At the same time, if people are going to continue to load Zacian-C weak teams and Zacian-C’s claim to an S- rank is far more legitimate. This is the same logic I used to justify keeping stall at B- despite personally viewing it as a C+ level playstyle. I’m content with that for lower rankings, but less so when evaluating the top of the metagame.

What gives me pause is that outside of the offense matchup Zacian-C is as bad as it has ever been. Zacian-C has always been deadweight against stall, but I find it to be worse than ever on and against balance / bulky offense. It isn’t difficult to fit Zacian-C on bulky offense, but I’ve felt it is immensely difficult to fit on balance for quite some time.

Zacian-C unquestionably commands respect in the teambuilder of an S rank Pokémon. The main issue is that doing so doesn’t really force balance and bulky offense teams into making uncomfortable decisions in the builder. I’ve long preached that Primal Groudon + a Ground-immune Zacian-C check is more than sufficient so long as the rest of the team isn’t absurdly weak to Zacian-C.

The problem Zacian-C faces is that most balance and bulky offense teams would already naturally have this counterplay even if it didn’t exist. I suppose defensive Yveltal would be used more, but Primal Groudon + Giratina-O with access to tera is going to suffice most of the time. This isn’t to say that Zacian-C is deadweight into these teams, it isn’t, but the Intrepid Sword nerf makes utilizing Zacian-C effectively difficult in game even ignoring being brought in prematurely via phasing.

To further compound the issue, Zacian-C is incredibly reliant on its Speed which is problematic when Sticky Webs is the best style of HO and not easy to remove without specific Pokémon or sets. If you’re running Zacian-C you need to be able to near guarantee the ability to remove webs so your anti-offense Pokémon can well…do its job of being an anti-offense Pokémon. This places a lot of burden compared to Choice Band Marshadow which still has its powerful Shadow Sneak or Life Orb Yveltal with its Sticky Web immunity.

I guess the main point is that I view Zacian-C as a Pokémon that is far more effective on paper than in practise. It is often incredibly reliant on its teammates to facilitate its success, more than a S- rank should be. If everything goes to plan things are swell, if they don’t you’re relying on a Pokémon that has trouble consistently performing the duties it is assigned and Zacian-C is often assigned with a lot. Despite this criticism, Zacian-C is an excellent Pokémon, but its flaws lead me to viewing it as an A+ one rather than S/S-.

A

:pmd/arceus-fairy: Arceus-Fairy’s biggest sin is not being Arceus-Dark. Arceus-Fairy is a very good Pokémon, but being at best a shaky soft check to Ultra Necrozma is really rough. Recently Tera Dark has felt like something that works on paper while failing miserably in practise as Ultra Necrozma can just well…not Ultra Burst. Taunt may prevent it from boosting, but Arceus-Fairy also isn’t doing much back while you’ve popped your tera which is not a good trade. Taunt Wisp does solve this, but only works on support sets which will lose to Yveltal which is mostly Tera Fire on HO these days in large part due to stuffing defensive Arceus-Fairy and defensive Ho-Oh. This also ignores that every Arceus-Fairy set would rather run something other than Tera Dark.

It isn’t as though Tera Dark Arceus-Fairy is the only option for Ultra Necrozma counterplay. Choice Band Marshadow fits nicely onto Arceus-Fairy structures while Yveltal works. The issue is that that Ultra Necrozma heavily limits both the variety and creativity of Arceus-Fairy structures. A lot of the time it is far easier to just use Calm Mind Arceus-Dark and make a decent team with nearly any Pokémon in those last slots. The other major gripe I have with Arceus-Fairy is how difficult it is to build an Arceus-Fairy structure that handles Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM well. Choice Band Marshadow covers that as well (it is S- for a reason), but the whole limited viable structures thing comes into play.

Outside of Ultra Necrozma, the issues that Arceus-Fairy has are all relatively easy to account for with the rest of the team. The most annoying is probably Ho-Oh, but that is pretty manageable in the grand scheme of things. It feels odd to spend the Arceus-Fairy section talking mostly about another Pokémon, but that is the reason I’m low on Arceus-Fairy at the moment and believe it is no longer deserving of A+.

Arceus-Fairy is still an excellent Pokémon with lots of reasons to use it over Arceus-Dark, but locking yourself out of the singular solid defensive counterplay to Ultra Necrozma is pretty significant. If Arceus-Dark was not a S- level Pokémon I’d probably have voted Arceus-Fairy to A-. It generally fits better on bulkier stuff while having a less exploitable defensive typing even if it is worse offensively. I like Arceus-Fairy a lot, but unless Ultra Necrozma is banned or becomes simply a decent Pokémon on HO, I can’t see it as an A+ Pokémon going forward.


:pmd/necrozma-dusk-mane: Defensive Necrozma-DM shows why it is fringe viable every time it rears its head. Dragon Dance on the other hand…I’m in a perpetual state of amazement at how little use this gets. I’d go as far to say it is one of the scariest Pokémon for balance and some bulky offense teams to see at preview if they are not running Coil Tera Water Zygarde. Outside of that the only Pokémon that is comfortable trading is Overheat Primal Groudon. It doesn’t exactly want to take a +1 Earthquake, but can in a pinch.

However, this goes both ways as Necrozma-DM doesn’t enter the field easily given that most of the top Pokémon will either blow it up or cripple it with status as it isn’t very bulky. The main thing holding Necrozma-DM back is being outsped by Marshadow at +1 and it needs every bit of Attack investment to secure OHKOs, so a Jolly nature is out the window. Maybe if it could outpace Zacian-C at +1 a Jolly nature would be more justifiable.

Although it has its flaws, Necrozma-DM is one of those mons that is pretty likely to provide something of value in nearly every matchup due to its power. Searing Sunraze Smash will still OHKO Zacian-C and does the same to Ekiller after some slight chip. At +1 it outspeeds and OHKOes Arceus formes and Coil Zygarde. The main choice is deciding whether to run Photon Geyser or Stone Edge. I’m personally a fan of Photon Geyser unless the team is stupidly Ho-Oh weak as Psychic is frankly a decent offensive typing with widespread neutral coverage in this tier. This is especially true on Necrozma-DM given its main targets to remove with Searing Sunraze Smash are the Dark-types. We don’t really have defensive steels and the one we do have, Ferrothorn, doesn’t take boosted Earthquakes well and can be used as setup fodder. OTR is neat, but niche. It is great if you load into HO and Trick Room especially, but kind of flops outside of that.

:pmd/arceus: I had Ekiller in A- until a last-minute change to back to A. My logic was based on Arceus-Ground being proper competition. Ekiller is a Pokémon which has not demonstrated any ability to fit outside of hyper offense structures with the exception of teams looking to fish. Personally, I find it very hard to justify a Pokémon which is only good on a single playstyle ranking higher than A.

However, hyper offense is good as opposed to dominant while Ekiller has transitioned from mandatory to a staple. Ekiller is certainly a reason why HO is good, but many successful HO teams have been dropping Ekiller as of late. Consequently, I find it baffling that Ekiller is not only A+, but has remained there for multiple slates now. If hyper offense was beyond dominant and Ekiller was considered mandatory on hyper offense I’d happily make an exception.

Due to this I felt A- was appropriate as it recognized Ekiller’s staple, but not mandatory status on hyper offense structures. However, after thinking about it a bit more I realized that the SD Double-Edge sets make Ekiller an A rank mon. They’re pretty good right now due to their ability to bypass Zygarde while appreciating Ho-Oh switching to offensive sets. I was on the fence about A and A- anyways so I don’t have regrets. However, A+ is still crazy to me and a standout among an otherwise excellent slate.

:pmd/giratina-origin:Before Alomomola became a thing I never liked Giratina-O all that much. It is a good Pokémon, but I find that micromanaging its HP is often more trouble than it is worth. This is compounded by Giratina-O having an incredibly polarizing matchup spread. It is similar vibes wise to Arceus-Fairy in that its good matchups are incredibly important and not that easy to fit counterplay otherwise. Zygarde may be a Primal Groudon counter, but outside of Zygarde and Giratina-O, not much switches safely into.

The issue with Giratina-O is that it kind of loses quite badly to nearly everything else and is incredibly reliant on tera to be the truly disruptive force it is supposed to be. Without Alomomola this is only exacerbated due to a lack of recovery and Giratina-O Alomomola structures are in a bit of a rough spot currently. They are still good, but the Sticky Web issue is one that I’m not sure can be solved while these structures also tend to have issues with strong wallbreakers and a near crippling weakness to Dragon Dance Zygarde. I’ve never like building Giratina-O teams all that much as the precision required piloting them often results in unneeded stress and I’m not about that life. One of the few positive things I can say about Giratina-O is how well it facilitates Dragon Dance Zygarde due to the issues it tends to present with even defensive Primal Groudon. Entro voted for Giratina-O to A- and thinking about it more I kind of agree. It has been a while since I’ve built a Giratina-O team I’ve liked. It is a good, but quite flawed Pokémon.

A-

:pmd/arceus-ground: How the mighty have fallen. Arceus-Ground is on the upswing, but it is just that - an upswing, not a rebound. Arceus-Ground has proven itself to be a decent option on offensive structures where its defensive shortcomings don't matter. Even then, it is more of a decent alternative to Ekiller rather than an upgrade. It is better against offense and worse against balance while both thud into stall. I don't think Arceus-Ground is extinct outside of offensive structures as Fezandipiti does solve many of its issues, but this is still theorymon rather than something proven at this point. I've been an Arceus-Ground hater, but I've never felt as justified as I have in the last few months. Arceus-Ground isn't bad, but it rarely feels good either which is a problem.


:pmd/necrozma-ultra: As mentioned earlier in the thread, I think Ultra Necrozma is an A- Pokémon despite thinking it should be banned. At least in a vacuum Ultra Necrozma is an A+ Pokémon due to the obscene threat it poses. There is a dearth of consistent soft counterplay which in turn promotes Ultra Necrozma’s hard counterplay in Arceus-Dark, Marshadow, and Yveltal. I don’t personally consider Yveltal to be amazing Ultra Necrozma counterplay due to a reliance on Terastallization and/or Sucker Punch, but most people do.

The issue is that Ultra Necrozma has little to no means of bypassing this counterplay. Doing means running a much worse set against nearly everything else in Swords Dance + X-Scissor and even then, that isn’t guaranteed to bypass Arceus-Dark and there is nothing it can do against Marshadow. Sure, one could run this set, but they can also use Zacian-C which is likely on the team anyways and beats said counterplay.

This is compounded by Ultra Necrozma being a poor fit on nearly everything outside of HO. The Stealth Rock set exists and is decent on BO, but uncommon and nowhere near as good. The primary issue I have with Ultra Necrozma is that the alternatives have proven themselves to be quite good whether that is Chi-Yu or Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground. Consequently, you’re left with a Pokémon that for all intents and purposes is HO exclusive and at this point not even mandatory on HO. When a Pokémon is limited to a single playstyle it is incredibly hard to justify anything above A. In my opinion, even A rank is contingent on being essentially mandatory on that single playstyle, so A+ was never happening. Given the consistency of the viable alternatives, A- is more fitting even if it is the scariest Pokémon in my A- rank.

:pmd/lunala: Nothing has really changed when it comes to Lunala. Last slate Entro voted it to A and I think that is fair even if I am not there myself at the moment. Lunala rising to A would be based on how well it slots into HO. Lunala is currently an undroppable member on Pyspam teams as it is often what is able to break through the Dark-types for something else to sweep or clean up. During NDPL Emoxu9 debuted a Sticky Web team featuring Lunala + Chi-Yu. This is a fantastic team and will likely become a sample and Lunala is a significant reason why it works well. That being said, I’d like to see Lunala solidify itself a bit more on HO before it rises to A. I don’t think it is far off, but currently it is more of a fun option that is decent than one that springs to the front of your mind. Choice Specs set remain an absolute demon with no safe switch-ins while not always being deadweight against HO and carries Lunala to A- by itself. I don’t like defensive or Calm Mind sets much at all, but they are at least viable. Although I do think Lunala is close to being A rank, I would not be surprised if it never gets there.

:pmd/deoxys-attack: It would be an A rank mon if it always had the right coverage and tera type but it doesn't. It is hard to see Deoxys-A either rising or falling throughout much of the generation. It has its niche and is quite high-risk high-reward. It keeps fat honest which is pretty nice. There just isn't that much to say about Deoxys-A as it either goobs or is goobed itself. I do think it is a bit easier to fit than it used to be. The lead set is still heavily slept on.

:pmd/ditto: I've been continually surprised by how low my fellow voters and the rest of the NDUbers community is on Ditto for quite a while now. I'm lower on HO than most, but the most dominant archetype of HO currently is webs, which is what Ditto does the best into. Furthermore, Zacian-C running Bethemoth Blade over Play Rough and Eternatus opting for Tera Dragon on HO instead of Tera Fire is only good news for Ditto. It isn't all that hard to throw on a team that covers the setup threats it cannot beat.

:pmd/alomomola: Alomomola is hanging onto the A ranks by a thread. While Alomomola teams may have a very good matchup spread, but development has stagnated somewhat recently. Despite a decent matchup spread, there are two big glaring holes in sticky webs and Dragon Dance Zygarde. I'm not entirely sure if these are solvable issues, at least with the current structures. Maybe they are if Alomomola partners with Yveltal or Ho-Oh instead of Giratina-O. I do think Alomomola is still a great Pokémon, but without some new development its best days may be behind it.



B+

:pmd/rayquaza: I really was not sure where to put Rayquaza as both B+ and A- make sense to me. I do think it is pretty likely I'll vote Rayquaza back to A- in the next couple of slates, but right now it suffers from consistency issues. Choice Band is a nutty breaker, but the constraints of 8 Dragon Ascent PP is definitely felt a lot of the time. Alomomola structures being on the decline is a good thing for Rayquaza as they are somewhat capable of stalling it out. Life Orb sets are really good, but still a bit niche and not enough to move the needle for me. Imo Rayquaza had a bit of a stumble in the second half of last year and is now on the upswing. If this slate was a little later I think I'd vote A-, but time will tell. The VR is updated every few months and I don't think having Rayquaza in B+ is egregious.

:pmd/smeargle: This might be the Pokémon I hate the most in the metagame. Sure it should be Sticky Web / Nuzzle / Mortal Spin / Perish Song, but it doesn't have to be. The degree to which one can be rewarded for greeding with Smeargle while remaining unpunished is way too damn high. One of the things I love about Dragon Dance Zygarde is its ability to punish this greed as without Perish Song it can easily 6-0 a lot of webs teams. That being said, Webs are the strongest HO currently and this annoying little fuck is one of the main reasons why. Shuckle may be a slightly more consistent Sticky Web setter, but this rarely comes into play as most Taunt users fail to reliably shut Smeargle down. Often times preventing Sticky Web is not worth getting your Yveltal or Arceus forme paralyzed/poisoned as Smeargle can just switch out and find an opportunity to get the webs up later.

:pmd/ferrothorn: A lot of people seem to be a low on the durian at the moment, but I think it is the best it has been in a while. I would not be shocked to see it in A- at some point this year, but that would require results it doesn't currently have. It benefits from the developments in HO such as Arceus increasingly dropping Earthquake for Taunt or Double-Edge and Arceus-Ground becoming a lot more common. Given that HO is always what Ferrothorn has struggled with, providing more value in that matchup is always good. Also more people should try Tera Grass.

:pmd/deoxys-speed: After a few slates in B+ I intially voted Deoxys-S to A-. I then realized that having Deoxys-S in A- made no sense given I think Sticky Webs is the best HO archetype. Given that, one of the two had to move a subrank and I'm not sure Webs are strong enough at the moment to rise to A- so I moved Deoxys-S down.

:pmd/gothitelle: Initially I still had Gothitelle at A-, but it is too hard to justify that currently. I'd perfer Shadow Tag was banned so that I would not have to write about Gothitelle again. It traps so much of the defensive metagame, but at least Fezandipiti is a newcomer it can't trap. I like going all in on the stall matchup and running Tera Ghost. Trapping both Dondozo and Chansey really opens up what it can support. We should ban Shadow Tag, but I've come to accept that this is likely not happening.


:pmd/calyrex-ice: Calyrex-I somehow hasn't really changed in quite a long time. It is the epitome of a 'cool' B+ Pokémon. It doesn't fit on a ton of teams, but those teams tend to be pretty decent and Calyrex-I is what makes them click. There are not all that many games where Calyrex-I provides no value as its bulk lets it take a hit from most things. The only mon that I'd consider good that is comfortable switching into Glacial Lance is defensive Primal Kyogre. Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM can, but is still 2HKOed. Calyrex-I's reliance on decent hazard control is what keeps it in B+ as its ability to trade is severely compromised if Stealth Rock is up. There are just a lot of little nice things that Calyrex-I brings to a team that I like that make up for the support it mandates.

:pmd/chien-pao: Sadly, I had to spend a while thinking about whether Chien-Pao should drop. This isn't because Chien-Pao is any worse itself, but the structures it fits best (Alo teams) have been on a slight decline. Alo teams generally tend to have pretty big issues with Sticky Webs and Dragon Dance Zygarde. Chien-Pao, as a fast and frail mon suffers from this a lot as it is forced to increasingly rely on priority. Ice Shard is decent, but falls short of the damage you'd expect surprisingly often even with Tera Ice. Sucker Punch is a move I consider inherently unreliable, but even more so on a Choice locked Pokémon. There is also the Zacian-C issue which is exacerbated by Chien-Pao's lack of defensive utility as Chien-Pao revenging something on HO is going to mean dealing with a +3 Zacian-C. Sure, this is something every team needs to be able to do, but Chien-Pao's proclivity into forcing one to do so with such frequency can cause a lot of strain in game and in the builder. Chien-Pao seems like a great Dragon Dance Zygarde check, but is outsped and OHKOed at +1 and is frustratingly limited at how inconsistent it is at revenging it. Between Tera Ground, Substitute, and healing after transforming, Chien-Pao is not a reliable Dragon Dance Zygarde check. It definitely can check at times, but isn't self sufficient in doing so.

B

:pmd/salamence-mega: Initially I had Mega Salamence in B+ and was considering even A-. On paper at least, Mega Salamence apreciates the metagame trending towards a more offensive approach as this means it has more opportunities than ever to get in and break or sweep. Unfortunately, a lot of the trends that have resulted in a frailer metagame are things that Mega Salamence doesn't appreciate. For example, Eternatus becoming a staple on HO is not only increased competition for Mega Salamence, but also a Pokémon that outspeeds and OHKOes it while defensive sets have been running Speed for Marshadow. Support Arceus formes have shifted towards more specially defensive spreads, but they've also gotten faster with a shift towards 341 Speed. Additionally, the shift in the Arceus formes itself isn't great as Arceus-Ground has fallen out of favour and has been replaced with Arceus-Dark and Fairy. Even switching into Arceus-Dark isn't something Mega Salamence can safely do as Judgment 2HKOes.

The issue I have with Mega Salamence isn't that it is a bad Pokémon. It is far from it, but I've had immense struggles fitting Mega Salamence on good teams. Ultimately, I find it runs into a few too many roadblocks in the builder and in game. It has pretty minimal defensive utility and less setup opportunities than ever which is an issue given that it has good, but not great speed. This is compounded by losing to most things that are faster than it. There is also figuring out exactly what moves you want to run as no matter which three one opts for there are a lot of gaps. Personally I prefer Double Edge + Facade, but you want Earthquake for Zacian-C, Roost for longevity, and Return/Frustration is still nice. This results in consistency issues which is the biggest of the issues a Pokémon can have. It seems like no matter how I build with Mega Salamence I'm left unsatisfied with the final result.

:pmd/chi-yu: Chi-Yu is moving up because Smeargle is moving up. It should always be a subrank below the highest ranked webs setter imo. Webs have been the strongest HO archetype for a hot minute now and Chi-Yu is arguably the best abuser. Entro said it best: Chi-Yu!! On a more serious note, Chi-Yu is the strongest Sticky Webs abuser and provides these teams with a proper stallbreaker (as long as it can enter the field safely). This is a massive upgrade compared to Swords Dance Ultra Necrozma which comes with the cost of being signficantly worse into everything else. In comparison, Chi-Yu is still a very good breaker against balance and bulky offense structures. Having a good Marshadow and Ditto matchup is also a boon. Chi-Yu might be the best webs abuser in the metagame depending on whether one views Yveltal as a webs absuer or maintainer.

:pmd/glimmora: Glimmora is still annoying as hell and has enough of a presence despite middling tournament results for some time now to retain its B rank imo. Glimmora does what it needs to do courtesy of its good matchup with common hazard removal. Giratina-O doesn't hate taking it on if it has Thunder Wave. As it tends to thud into HO anyways, preventing hazards from the suicide lead while maintaining a sac and potentially having enough HP to do something later is often nice. Ho-Oh is obviously a good matchup. I am generally a fan of Mud Shot over a second entry hazard as the utility it provides facilitates easier setup opportunities for its teammates while preventing Eternatus from using it as setup fodder.

:pmd/fezandipiti: The bird is the word. Intitially I thought Fezandipiti would be some C rank shitter. The more I use it the more I think this mon is as Jumpheart said: 'The saviour of NDUbers.' Slower balances have been on the decline for quite some time and Fezandipiti breathes life in them as it is a full on Yveltal counter. Unlike the other Yveltal 'counters' of Calm Mind Arceus-Dark and Arceus-Fairy, Fezandipiti doesn't care if Yveltal uses Tera Fire or if Sticky Webs are up. One of the great things about Fezandipiti is how easy it makes removing webs due to Icy Wind.

At the time of my initial nomination Icy Wind was largely a this is a kinda cool niche option. Since then, Icy Wind has become the default for me alongside Acid Spray. The utility against offense is amazing as it allows Fezandipiti to support more midrange wallbreakers on both sides of the attacking spectrum. Moonblast is definitely nice for allowing Fezandipiti to 1v1 more Pokémon, but at the same time, these Pokémon are going to Tera Poison / Steel if they are looking to stay in against Fezandipiti anyways. Really the only Pokémon I’d say is wholly unbothered by Fezandipiti is Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM. Even something like Chansey is wasting some Seismic Tosses while the Toxic damage eats into its limited Soft-boileds.

The sheer variety of Pokémon Fezandipiti is capable of supporting while also acting as a blanket check to most of the special attacking metagame makes it an easy B rank for me. I do think Fezandipiti has B+, maybe even A- potential, but currently that is theorymon. The main thing it needs to do to breach those ranks which grant ‘core metagame’ status is prove that it works on bulky offense in addition to balance. I do think that is possible, but I want to see proof before rising it further as UR -> B is quite a jump. Fezandipiti does have a few moves that have not really been explored with Charm having the most potential imo. I’m also not sure why it doesn’t get Toxic Spikes.

:pmd/diancie-mega: Mega Diancie is a massive pain for a lot of teams early-game still but is so damn hard to fit. In a vacuum Mega Diancie is B+. It is an amazing antilead into HO in general while usually claiming important damage against something if not 1.5 KOs v balance and bulky offense structures. The ability to actually fit or desire to run Mega Diancie holds it back at least one subrank.


B-

:pmd/basculegion: If I could ban it tomorrow I would. The problem is Basculegion isn't good enough to merit doing so. It is cheese, but good cheese. It isn't that hard for its teammates to overload its counters. I'd ban it because it is Last Respects is just a bullshit move and uninteractive. Basculegion is a simple Pokémon so there isn't really much to say. Last slate I changed my vote to B from B- at the last minute. After thinking about it for a while...Yes this mon is stupid and I'd like Last Respects banned, but it also has had pretty poor results in tournament for a while now so B- it is.

:pmd/garganacl: Last slate I voted B, but was split between B/B-. Garganacl itself has not changed in the slightest, but im unsure whether the bulkier teams Garganacl anchors have taken a slight stumble or remain the same. I do think bulkier balance teams are slightly stronger, but Garganacl is a just a good mon on them rather than a reason for this. The credit for that mostly goes to Fezandipiti, Tera Fairy Dragon Tail Zygarde, and Deoxys-A proving it can fit on said structures as the fast immediately threatening mon.

Regardless, Garganacl has a lot of traits that make it one of my favourite lower ranked mons to build around as it is incredibly honest. It reminds me a lot of Arceus-Fairy in that despite losing to a lot of the top tier mons, it has really good matchups against most of the scariest ones for the playstyles it tends to fit on to make up for this. Garganacl does do this, but is reliant on how it is built. Stealth Rock is certainly viable, but imo setup sets with either Curse / Iron Defense and 248 HP / 72+ Def / 188 SpD or is the way to go imo. 100/130/90 defences with Recover is the bulk you'd expect from a defensive presence in Ubers so Garganacl is quite flexible in terms of its spreads while still being able to wall a shocking number of mons. Garganacl may be a great user of Terastallization, but it is too much of a tera hog for how splashable it is to rise to B+ without further exploration and/or sustained tournament results. I definitely build more with Garganacl than a lot of mons ranked higher than it despite rarely bringing it to tournament matches.

I realized that I've after so much time building with Garganacl and the frustrations that ensued make Garganacl B- in my eyes. Garganacl in a vacuum is excellent, but it is way too difficult to build with to remain in B. Both Tera Fairy and Tera Water Garganacl are amazing and excell at walling some very difficult to wall Pokemon depending on which you chose such as Dragon Dance Zygarde, Marshadow, and Zacian-C. The issue stems from wanting both of these teras and well you can't. The issue is that no matter which tera one opts for there are still a lot of gaps in Garganacl's defensive profile and those gaps often necessitate tera on something else which leads to Garganacl being immensely frustrating to build with for a B rank Pokemon. Is Garganacl good? Yes. Can you slap it on stuff? No. It isn't as specific as C+ stuff so B- it is for me despite Garganacl being really good.

:pmd/pheromosa: Pheromosa is still quite underrated imo. Pheromosa loves the rise of offensive Ho-Oh given that it is 2HKOed by Triple Axel. Being a U-Turn bot isn't a big issue if you have good mons to U-Turn into. It is heavily underexplored on bulky offense imo and fits pretty well onto those teams. If you're running fat + a fast offensive mon Marshadow or Deoxys-A are better fits though. That Speed tier will always be useful, especially with Extreme Speed being a rarity on Deoxys-A.

:pmd/kyurem-black: It is a bit odd how much respect I have for Kyurem-B despite never using it as I don't use much HO. It is the balance shredder that Palkia-O wishes it was. The rise of Dragon Dance Zygarde keeps it B- for me as Kyruem-B does not care about substitute as Icicle Spear still OHKOes after Tera Ground. Adem is right about a lot of things, but she is wrong about Kyruem-B being a complete shitter. It has enough issues that C+ is reasonable, but is strong and dangerous enough after a single DD whilst being usable on spikestack, screens, and webs to offset its flaws.

:pmd/blissey: I voted Blissey B last slate, but I think that was slightly overrating it. I don't currently think that the semistalls it fits on are good enough to have it a whole subrank above the stall trio. It is fine on stall, even if it is a downgrade to Chansey, but I think the semistall structures tend to have too many consistency issues (i.e. DD Zygarde) atm to have Blissey in B. It is decent on and integral to those teams though. Given that people refuse to use the broken Gothitelle, its niche on stall is kind of theoretical. Consequently, C+ makes sense as well.

:pmd/chansey::pmd/dondozo::pmd/giratina: Stall is still stall. It has enough winning matchups to be B-, but not higher imo. If hyper offense becomes absolutely dominant it would probably rise given how many HO teams cannot break stall. Stall struggles immensely outside of some HO and do nothing fat balances to be higher than B- or B imo. As stall is inherently limited and pretty dependent on teams ignoring it in the builder, those decide where I rank it. Currently enough teams ignore it despite minor changes that would completely flip the stall matchup for it to remain B- imo.


:pmd/landorus-therian: Initially the blurb was talking about how Landorus-T perfectly encapsulated what a C+ Pokémon is supposed to be. However, after thinking about it more I decided to move it to B-, albeit at the bottom. Landorus-T is the type of mon that props up a few times per tournament and does its job as a utility pivot while checking Zacian-C fairly consistently. I do have some reservations about B-, but I do feel Landorus-T has demonstrated that it can succeed in this role consistently enough on enough different teams to get the benefit of the doubt. It isn’t a Pokémon that should show up all that often, but performs amicably when it does.

C+

:pmd/arceus-grass: I've been wondering if I like Arceus-Grass and that is blinding me a bit so I've built a few teams with it and it is really good. The flaws of Grass-type Pokémon are really overstated, but in this case it comes with the issue of struggling to defensively handle some of the Pokémon you generally want to from the Arceus slot. Taking up the Arceus slot is really the biggest limitation that Arceus-Grass has and what makes it so difficult to fit outside of BO. It is the only Arceus forme I'd be comfortable calling a full on Zygarde counter. That plus its ability to counter Primal Kyogre is fantastic while also not letting in Primal Groudon for free. 144 BP Grass Knot is dopamine.

The issue is kind of everything else. It pairs incredibly well with Zacian-C as that at least offensively covers Yveltal, Eternatus, and kind of blanket checks opposing Arceus formes. There is the Ho-Oh problem, but that is a solvable issue. Arceus-Grass is also really nice on fatter balances that would otherwise have issues with Dragon Dance Zygarde as well, freeing up Zygarde from Tera Fairy or providing the ability to use something else entirely. It pairs incredibly well with Fezandipiti. Recover 3A is the best set, but CM 2A is more fun.

:pmd/arceus-water: With each passing day my disdain for Arceus-Water increases. This is quite different from when I started playing NDUbers and it was my favourite Arceus forme. It feels like no matter what set Arceus-Water uses it is so damn reliant on other Pokémon to do most of the heavy lifting. It isn't even being unable to touch Primal Groudon, but how Water is low key a steaming pile of shit of an offensive type in this tier. Primal Kyogre makes it work because of how obscenely powerful it is - even with defensive sets. I like Arceus-Water more than Arceus-Ground, but that is damning with faint praise because I've always disliked Arceus-Ground and nowadays it doesn't fit on the teamstyles I like at all. I don't think I'll end up rating it much lower than this, but what a fall from grace.

:pmd/mewtwo-mega-y: The best current example of how win rates can be deceiving. It had a 70% win rate in the Beers & Buds tourney, but lowish use and didn't even enter the field in half of the games. The 4MSS would be less of a problem if it wasn't deleted by every form of priority. It still absolutely cleaves through some balances and a breaker that eviscerates Eternatus will always have some value in this metagame. It still has games where it goes crazy, but more often than not it trades for something and dies.

:pmd/tapu-lele: Psyspam has not changed. It was brought a fair amount in the Beers & Buds tournament, but that didn't do much to change my mind. Tapu Lele has a decent chance to rise to B- at some point imo if the meta changes to where Psyspam has more winning matchups. Given how linear and restrictive Pyspam structures are, their viability lives and dies by their matchup spread.

:pmd/arceus-rock: Arceus-Rock is still doing that cool antimeta Arceus forme shitmon thing that is actually legit. It definitely appreciates more bulky offense teams leaning towards offensive Ho-Oh at the moment than Giratina-O. As with any Arceus forme, the opportunity cost is the biggest thing holding it back rather than innate issues with the Pokémon itself.

C

:pmd/arceus-flying:
I don't think Calm Mind Arceus-Flying has gotten worse, but at some points you need results somewhere and it is nowhere to be seen in tournaments. Even on ladder where people are comfortable to run seemingly every flavour of dogshit this does not get used. I don't really get why. I'm not sure if Arceus-Flying was even brought to a single tournament game in 2024. Regardless of what it can do, that is a large enough sample size to push it down a subrank until someone does something with it. It doesn't help that the competition for a Calm Mind Arceus forme is as high as it has ever been.

:pmd/arceus-ghost: I really want to rank Arceus-Ghost higher, but just can't as the metagame just gets harsher for it as the Yveltal, Marshadow, and Arceus-Dark increase their stranglehold. Arceus-Ground continuing to prove its worth on hyper offense teams is just another roadblock. It is a really cool mon, but it is really hard to justify on paper and often thuds in game as well. Coil Zygarde opting for Dragon Tail more often these days does not help things either.


:pmd/palkia-origin: I can't be bothered to copy and paste what I wrote last slate as nothing has really changed. It is still a paper tiger.

:pmd/shuckle: Keeping it above Ribombee because Encore + momentum from Final Gambit is pretty good. It also has enough results in tournaments to justify it even if I like Ribombee more. Webs are great at the moment, but this isn't due to Shuckle. Their strength comes from Smeargle and Shuckle is just there as an honest webs setter that is a bit better against fatter teams where its bulk can give it the opporunity to set up webs a second time more easily. It still feels a bit odd having Shuckle here because I can't remember the last time I recommended that someone should use it despite being fine in vacuum. Personally, I like Ribombee a lot more as an alternative Sticky Web setter, but Shuckle is a better setter overall.

:pmd/ribombee: Voting to rise Ribombee to C because of how strong webs are currently. That makes the whole webs lead that prevents other webs leads from setting webs more valuable. Its decent movepool makes it quite annoying to dispatch without much damage and Shield Dust is quite nice for always getting two turns to stuff v Ho-Oh unlike Smeargle.

:pmd/hatterene: I'm glad last slate Hatterene finally rose a subrank above Melmetal and Cresselia. This is just because it reflects that Hatterene is mandatory on Trick Room and the other two are not. Trick Room is still bad, but at least Hatterene has received recognition. This is a case where usage stats are not everything. Trick Room had an excellent win rate in Beers & Buds, but a lot of it was Emoxu9 loading Trick Room into HO and getting absolutely free wins. Emoxu9 is arguably the strongest NDUbers player at the moment, but I'd like to see Trick Room perform better against matchups where it isn't essentially 100-0 before it rises.

:pmd/grimmsnarl: Screens are ass but Grimmsnarl is a decentish setter at least. It suffers so much from 4MSS as it wants both Spirit Break and Parting Shot in addition to Thunder Wave at times. Screens are viable enough to keep it ranked, but not by much.

C-
:pmd/tyranitar-mega:
I voted Mega Tyranitar to C last time because I have not seen it on much of anything decent outside of the one stall team. That team is also somewhat dated at this point, though still viable and is more of a downgrade to standard stall than a sidegrade. It is a great punish to lazy teambuilding which overly relies on LO Yveltal for the stall matchup. This applies to the Chi-Yu structures as well, but I do think that Chi-Yu can use Mega Tyranitar as an entry point once it is forced to rest and get down to business. Personally, I do think Mega Tyranitar is still fairly underveloped as I see some sort of niche outside of stall with Pursuit + Knock on a fatter build, but results matter. At this point the metagame has been around long enough that results matter and despite Mega Tyranitar having C+ potential personally, it needs some results.

:pmd/kingambit: I still think Kingambit is a decent, if niche endgame mon on fat. It would be so much better if it was slightly faster. Having to run Jolly to outspeed uninvested 90s screws it over so much. The power loss is really felt, but

:pmd/venusaur-mega: I'm still a believer even if things have not really changed for Mega Venusaur. Mega Venusaur's Grass-typing does help a lot as it is able to compress a Coil Zygarde + Primal Kyogre counter, but the poison typing means it isn't as consistent as it should be against Dragon Dance Zygarde. Some people have compared it to Fezandipiti, but their roles don't really overlap outside of absorbing Toxic Spikes. Mega Venusaur's viability is borderline for me, but I'm willing to give it some more time. Coil Zygarde becoming more popular due to Tera Fairy countering Dragan Dance sets is good for Mega Venusaur. I do think it will always have a place in the metagame due to the role compression it provides, but I'm not sure if that translates to always having a spot on VR.

:pmd/zekrom: Zekrom is a hard mon for me to rank. It has not shown the ability to slot anywhere outside of hyper offense structures and even there it is niche. It is a good stallbreaker and servicable wallbreaker, but it is the consistency issues which give me pause. There is not much room for error when both of its STABs have common immunities and if Primal Groudon isn't chipped it will be locked into Outrage to dispatch it. The Speed is also a pretty big issue when it has to choose between power and outrunning Zacian-C, which already gives the HO structures it fits on issues. If everything goes perfectly Zekrom it is probably a C+ level mon, but rarely is this the case. It might be consistent against stall, but stall being mediocre makes that niche less valuable. Especially when Zekrom has to compete against Kyruem-B which is still decent against stall, but much more threatening against Balance and BO while having more flexibility in its moveslot and access to tera.

:pmd/cresselia: Don't have anything new to say about this. Trick Room is still bad, but it is nearly required if using Melmetal and usable outside of that.

:pmd/melmetal: Good mon on a bad archetype. Trick Room is used way too much given it is barely viable. This applies to tournaments as well. You want both Melmetal and Calyrex-I, but can't fit both since they're so tera reliant. I'm a bigger fan of Calyrex-I on full Trick Room since the archetype already goobs HO and I value being better against bulky offense and balance. Calyrex-I also means Lunala can be fit which is better against the Pokémon Trick Room teams have trouble with.



:pmd/mewtwo: Mewtwo is viable trash. The LO NP stuff is barely viable and has a million issues, but frankly so does everything else in C-. It has a miniscule niche on stall, but I'm not sure how legitmate that is currently. All in all it has the barest minimum of stuff to cross the threshold for C- for me, but could very return to D next slate. It getting the use it does on ladder, even at the top has always been baffling.

:pmd/wobbuffet: I've still only seen Wobbuffet used by Bob. I'm not really much of a believer, but Shadow Tag is broken enough for me to have some faith in Wobb. It is probably a C/C+ mon if someone is willing to put the time in to properly explore and build with it. That won't be me. I'd much rather we ban Shadow Tag. I'll likely vote UR next slate.

UR / D
:pmd/ursaluna-bloodmoon: This was intially ranked due to a Shucca Berry Tera Poison set R8 brought to the trios tournament early last year. Since then it hasn't seen a single use in tournament despite a pretty large sample size. Nearly everything else has in the Beers & Buds tournament itself with the exceptions mostly being lower ranked Arceus formes. Even then, these have seen some use in other tournaments

:pmd/heatran: Intially I had voted for Heatran to be C-/UR and changed that to C- then changed it again to UR. Heatrans niche is reliant on defensive Overheat Primal Groudon + defensive Ho-Oh cores being quite popular. It does have decent matchups into some other Pokémon such as Eternatus, but its viability is predicated on Primal Groudon and Ho-Oh being unable to touch it and break its Air Balloon. The primary issue is that Ho-Oh has largely shifted towards offensive sets and even if Heatran can still beat Ho-Oh, having the Air Balloon broken means it cannot switch into Primal Groudon. This core was common enough until recently for Heatran to eke out a sliver of viability, but defensive Ho-Oh has nearly vanished from the metagame outside of stall which uses Brave Bird anyways.

:pmd/iron-treads: In all honesty I did not realize Iron Treads was still ranked. Apparently I voted to keep it ranked last slate as well which I don't remember doing. The anti-HO HO lead is cool and all, but it is just too niche even if it is viable. I feel Iron Treads is outclassed by Excadrill due to getting Stealth Rocks up against Trick Room. Trick Room may be bad, but people use it enough for that niche to have some value. With Mega Salamence nowhere to be seen it becomes harder to justify not using Mega Diancie to do the same stuff Iron Treads is used for.

:pmd/arceus-steel: I'm surprised that somehow this lasted longer on the VR than Arceus-Dragon. A Toxic immunity is nice, but beyond that...it doesn't really bring much to the table that other Arceus formes can't. A Toxic immunity is nice, but when Primal Groudon is the main Pokémon running it, that is an issue. Mono Steel is pretty poor defensive typing imo as it results in either being weak or neutral to most of the top threats. If you are going to run a niche Arceus forme I struggle to see why Arceus-Steel is the one you would go with.

:groudon-primal:
Defensive: S+
Jank Defensive S/S+
SD Utility: A+ / S-
Double Dance: A-
Rock Polish 3A: B/B+
AoA: B-

:zygarde-complete:
Coil: S/S+
Coil (SpD): S
Dragon Dance: S-

:eternatus:
Wallbreaker: A+
Meteor Beam: A
Offensive T Spikes: A-
Defensive: B+/B
Choice Specs: B
LO + 3A: B-

:ho-oh:
Offensive: S
Defensive: A

:yveltal:
Life Orb: S-
Defensive: A/A+
Choice Scarf: B+

:marshadow:
Choice Band: S-
Bulk Up: B+
AoA: C+

:Arceus-dark:
Calm Mind: S-
Defensive: B

:kyogre-primal:
Offensive: A+
Defensive: A+
Jank: A+

:zacian-crowned:
Blade + CC: A+
PR + CC: A
PR + TB Ground: A-
Blade + TB Ground: B+
Jank: B+

:Arceus-Fairy:
Taunt Calm Mind: A
Support: A-
CM + Wisp: A-/B+
CM + 2A: B/B+

:giratina-origin:
Special - A
Physical - C+

:necrozma-dusk-mane:
Dragon Dance: A/A+
Defensive: C-

:arceus-ground:
Dragon Dance: A-
Calm Mind: B-
Support: C+

:arceus:
Standard: A/A-
Double-Edge: A-

:necrozma-ultra:
Dragon Dance: A-
Stealth Rock: B

:lunala:
Choice Specs: A-
Meteor Beam: B/B+
Defensive: C-

:deoxys-attack:
Life Orb: A-
Lead: B
Meteor Beam: C+

:ditto:
Choice Scarf: A-

:alomomola:
Mixed Def: A-
Phys Def: B-

:deoxys-speed:
Hazards Lead: B+
Screens Lead: C+

:gothitelle:
Trapper: B+

:rayquaza:
Choice Band: B+ / A-
Dragon Dance: B+/B

:ferrothorn:
SpD: B+
Physdef: C

:smeargle:
Lead: B+

:chien-pao:
Choice Band: B+

:calyrex-ice:
Choice Band: B+
OTR: B-
Full Trick Room: C

:salamence-mega:
DD: B

:chi-yu:
Dark-Z: B/B+

:fezandipiti:
Disruptive Pivot: B

:glimmora:
Lead: B
 
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Turns out leaving notes while I make ranks is helpful for figuring out why I put stuff!!!

This is going to be nowhere near as long or as in-depth as bumboclaat. If we held to his standards, no one would ever post here again.


:sv/zygarde-complete:

I hate this thing. hate hate hate hate hate

Yes, this is the best Primal Groudon check on the market, and Tera Zygarde manages to convincingly check almost everything. A literal godsend for teambuilding much in the manner of Primal Groudon.

That said my vote to S+ is really off the value of how much I hate it. I don't like using it, I hate seeing it, and most of all, I hate prepping for it.

The coil sets are fine. What isn't is dragon dance. It's so boring: it clicks dragon dance, it clicks tera ground (if needed), and then it sweeps. Phasing? Nah, that's what Dragon Tail's for. Killing it? Good luck if it's already transformed. Statusing it? lol it clicked substitute.

This one set has forced Tera Fairy Coil Zygarde onto so many teams and is imo the single biggest driver of why Defensive Ho-Oh is losing regard and why I didn't vote Ho-Oh to S-rank.

This, along with the other S-ranks to lesser but very present degrees, is a major driver of matchup inconsistency in the tier. Most consistent zygarde countermeasures are only useful vs it and are practically dead slots outside of zyg itself with few exceptions (Primal Kyogre is a good example, usually), and this is yet another thing that easily wins vs anything passive (read: defensive Ho-Oh)

If I were on council earlier, I would have supported a suspect on this, and I still do now, meta be damned. I'd be much happier with this gone.

:sv/yveltal:

I voted this to S. Seems the others didn't agree.

Its Speed tier remains the #1 reason why support arcs can't viably run non-Speed-boosting natures, and its ability to dunk on most defensive counterplay with its LO set combined with the viability of Scarf makes the presence of this mon inescapable both in the builder and in game.

If you need more evidence, may I point you toward:

:sv/fezandipiti:

to B

Seriously, why is this in B????? And why is it so good?!

Pivoting, checking Yveltal (and to a lesser degree Tauntceus), and effortless status spreading combined with a surprisingly effective support movepool make this easy to slot onto teams with a deceptive amount of customizability.

Strange times.


:sv/groudon-primal:

I also would like for this to be given the special Primal Groudon rank. bumboclaat already said everything I had written down for it.
 
This is going to be nowhere near as long or as in-depth as @bumboclaat. If we held to his standards, no one would ever post here again.
Thanks! They're fun to write, but the yapping doesn't take place over the course of day. I usually chip away at these posts over the course of a few weeks. According to my sandbox I started it on January 2, but there were two periods of a week or so where I didn't make any progress on it. Progress ebbs and flows, but it mostly happens on days where I have a decent bit of time and the concentration to get quite a bit done. It usually takes 3-4 sessions of a few hours. I enjoy doing it and it is a lot more enjoyable than most of the stuff I have to write for work. I did something similar before being put on the council, but one of the most important things council members can do is interact with the public, especially when it comes to VR slates. On the surface all of our slates might look somwhat similar, but we often arrive at our conclusions through different reasonings which makes these differences more than superficial. It also helps people looking to get into the metagame quite a bit as knowing why a Pokémon is where it is helps so much more than simply seeing how viable it is.

I hate this thing. hate hate hate hate hate

Yes, this is the best Primal Groudon check on the market, and Tera Zygarde manages to convincingly check almost everything. A literal godsend for teambuilding much in the manner of Primal Groudon.

That said my vote to S+ is really off the value of how much I hate it. I don't like using it, I hate seeing it, and most of all, I hate prepping for it.

The coil sets are fine. What isn't is dragon dance. It's so boring: it clicks dragon dance, it clicks tera ground (if needed), and then it sweeps. Phasing? Nah, that's what Dragon Tail's for. Killing it? Good luck if it's already transformed. Statusing it? lol it clicked substitute.

This one set has forced Tera Fairy Coil Zygarde onto so many teams and is imo the single biggest driver of why Defensive Ho-Oh is losing regard and why I didn't vote Ho-Oh to S-rank.

This, along with the other S-ranks to lesser but very present degrees, is a major driver of matchup inconsistency in the tier. Most consistent zygarde countermeasures are only useful vs it and are practically dead slots outside of zyg itself with few exceptions (Primal Kyogre is a good example, usually), and this is yet another thing that easily wins vs anything passive (read: defensive Ho-Oh)

If I were on council earlier, I would have supported a suspect on this, and I still do now, meta be damned. I'd be much happier with this gone.

Personally I think it is the most visible driver for why defensive Ho-Oh has fallen off a fair bit. I think this would have happened even if Zygarde did not exist, but seeing it use defensive Ho-Oh as a means to setup sticks in your memory more. Even before Dragon Dance Zygarde became popular Taunt Calm Mind Arceus formes and wallbreaker Eternatus had cemented themselves as metagame staples. Tera Fire Life Orb Yveltal on Sticky Web had become quite popular on ladder even if it would take a bit more time to reach tournament play. All of these punish defensive Ho-Oh as harshly as Dragon Dance Zygarde. This is to say I think the shift to offensive Ho-Oh would have happened at some point regardless, even if Zygarde did accelerate it.

Also, speaking of offensive Ho-Oh, I think people tend to overlook just how good of a Dragon Dance Zygarde check it is. The current spread of Tera Grass 248 HP / 176+ Atk / 16 Def / 56 SpD / 12 Spe is perfectly EVd to decently check Dragon Dance Zygarde. This was wholly unintentional and I didn't realize it until Squeeby pointed it out the other week. If Zygarde opts to Tera Ground Sacred Fire will always break the Substitute, even after transformation. Additionally with Tera Grass Ho-Oh avoids the 3HKO from +3 Tera Ground Thousand Arrows. I wouldn't rely on offensive Ho-Oh as the sole Dragon Dance Zygarde check, but it does a shockingly good job. This is a lot better than the interaction defensive Ho-Oh has with Coil Zygarde as it doesn't beat it directly, but phasing it to force it to get the 3ish Coils it needs is more than enough.

I'm wondering what Pokémon you're alluding to that only beats Zygarde while being a dead slot against everything else? Tera Fairy Garganacl comes to mind, but that has uses outside of Zygarde. I guess Mega Venusaur? Is there anything you are alluding to that is ranked decently? If it is some C rank shitter, yeah those are C rank because they often just do 1/2 things well and little else. It isn't as though we are seeing Infiltrator Pokémon see use solely as a means to disrupt Dragon Dance Zygarde. The closest is Smeargle running Perish Song which is something I like because I hate that thing.

Last slate I voted to suspect Zygarde, but that was only because I was tired of some people moaning about it (they were mostly moaning about the Coil set). Next time I'll vote not to suspect it because that is really stupid reasoning. Quite a ways down the road I think maybe it could be suspected, but Coil Zygarde holding the metagame together will always leave me hesitant about banning Zygarde. At a minimum I don't see myself voting for a Zygarde suspect until after an Ultra Necrozma and Zacian-C suspect.

I voted this to S. Seems the others didn't agree.
I thought about voting Yveltal to S, but the biggest thing holding me back was Eternatus which I voted to S-. I think Yveltal may be around the same level of viability as Eternatus, but I'm not at a point where I'd place it above Eternatus. I think Yveltal in S would be fine even if I'm not there personally. It is borderline S/S- at worst anyways.

:sv/fezandipiti:

to B

Seriously, why is this in B????? And why is it so good?!
Yveltal is certainly a factor. As for why it is so good, it is a bit of all of its traits. Great typing for this metagame, good special bulk that with the typing allows it to counter most special attackers, and a broken ability. All of this combines to facilitate the factor that I think is the key to Fezandipiti's success: it is a defensive Pokémon that doesn't care about Taunt. Taunt is what makes the pool of Yveltal and Calm Mind Arceus checks so limited. Locking defensive counterplay out of the ability to status, phase, or heal goes a long way. Even without Icy Wind Yveltal and Arceus formes can't beat Fezandipiti, but with Icy Wind it can pivot out to defensive checks which now outspeed these Pokémon while being able to Roost itself. It is so good because almost everything it does creates progress which can't be denied.

Your comments on the slate regarding Zacian-C were pretty interesting and it would be great if you could elaborate on them publicly. Also why Ekiller is deserving of A+ is something I'd personally be interested in.


To add onto Bob's comment about there being disagreements on how to rank certain Pokémon. There were a few I think were worth highlighting.

:zygarde-complete: Despite this ending up in S+ it was never a sure thing as most S+ voters were unsure with a couple of voters changing their votes throughout the slate. What do y'all think about Zygarde? Does it deserve to share a rank with Primal Groudon or have we overshot?

:zacian-crowned: Zacian-C ended up with 2 S, 2 S-, and 2 A+ votes. Everyone agrees that it is one of the best Pokémon in the metagame, but there there were differing camps on where exactly the dog stands amongst the top echelon. What do you think about Zacian-C?

:arceus-ground: Although not evenly split, Arceus-Ground received votes ranging from A+ to A-. There is a pretty big difference between A+ and A- so where do you stand on Arceus-Ground. Has it had a minor stumble or is it washed (A- is still good, but this is Arceus-Ground)? Why?

:arceus-water: Arceus-Water had the biggest variation in votes of any Pokémon ranging from B+ to C+. Where do you stand on Arceus-Water?
 
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