Doubles National Dex Doubles OU - Metagame Discussion - Stakataka Banned!

[Smudge]

Art by the legendary Fangame10! Thank you!
Posted with approval from R8.

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Introduction​

National Dex continues to be a popular format due to retaining things that people consider extremely enjoyable from prior generations such as Megas, Z-Moves, and removed Pokemon. However, no Doubles format has been integrated into the National Dex scene -- until now. While this tier is in its infancy, we thought that it would be best to keep the banlist permissive since there are many options that the National Dex presents with regards to problem Pokemon, and many strong Pokemon have been powercrept.

Format Rules

This format is played 6v6, at level 100. Anything released is able to be used, except for the listed Pokemon, Abilities, and Items listed below.

Battles are to be played in the "National Dex Doubles" format, available in the teambuilder as of 2023-05-22.

Play Restrictions:

Endless Battle Clause: Players cannot intentionally prevent an opponent from being able to end the game without forfeiting.

Species Clause: Players cannot use two Pokemon with the same Pokedex number on the same team.

OHKO Clause: Players cannot use the moves Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, or Sheer Cold.

Evasion Moves Clause: Players cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize.

Gravity Sleep Clause: Sleep moves with below one hundred percent accuracy may not be used in conjunction with Gravity.

POKEMON RESTRICTIONS
Players can use all the Pokemon in the National Dex except the following Pokemon:

Annihilape
Arceus (all formes)
Calyrex-Ice
Calyrex-Shadow
Dialga
Eternatus
Genesect
Giratina
Giratina-Origin
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Koraidon
Kyogre
Kyurem-White
Lugia
Lunala
Magearna
Melmetal
Mewtwo
Miraidon
Necrozma-Dawn Wings
Necrozma-Dusk Mane
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Shedinja
Solgaleo
Stakataka
Urshifu-Single-Strike
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zacian
Zacian-Crowned
Zamazenta-Crowned
Zekrom
Zygarde-50%

Players cannot use the following abilities:

• Commander
• Power Construct
• Snow Cloak
• Sand Veil

Players cannot use the following items:

• Gengarite
• Metagrossite
• Eevium Z

Players cannot use the following moves:

• Coaching
• Dark Void
• Swagger

Sample Teams:

Samples are sorted by Mega Evolution. Typically, the teams listed first under each mega will be the easiest to use and are recommended for new players.

Mega Salamence
Mega Salamence is typically considered to be the strongest mega evolution in the tier, capable of fulfilling a variety of roles ranging from a tailwind setter, mixed attacker to setup sweeper. Common archetypes include hyperoffensive Chien-Pao teams, semiroom teams that use both tTailwind and Trick Room, and bulkier teams aimed at allowing Salamence many opportunities to click Dragon Dance.

Glimmer / Voltix Deo-S HO

https://pokepast.es/5ffc8e5284dfec5d

eragon's Mence Goodstuffs

https://pokepast.es/df5f75866aabdf76

Schister / Akaru Kokuyo Gothitelle + Setup Mence

https://pokepast.es/edf40c70f0d3686c

eragon's DD Mence

https://pokepast.es/16a1058e9f34eea4

Mega Charizard Y
Mega Charizard Y forms the backbone of sun, one of the strongest archetypes in the tier. Charizard commonly supports Protosynthesis Pokemon like Raging Bolt and Flutter Mane and pairs excellently with Stakataka, which offers an excellent Trick Room component and gives sun teams an extra dimension.

Schister's Hearthflame Sun

https://pokepast.es/165a94d08dc8508b

eragon's Gouging Fire Sun

https://pokepast.es/b10c3a9f470fdbe4

Mega Kangaskhan
While not having quite the same level of versatility as Mega Salamence, Mega Kangaskhan is capable of filling several different roles due to its access to fake out. Most Kangaskhan opt to run Seismic Toss to punish more passive teams, although some Kangaskhan opt to run Power-Up-Punch to set up.

eragon's Tapu Fini PUP Kang Balance

https://pokepast.es/455f00f89b3dbb56

Schister's Kangaskhan-Terrakion Offense

https://pokepast.es/cf9a5b3173526b21

Mega Gardevoir
Mega Gardevoir utilizes the strongest fairy damage in the tier with Pixilate Hyper Voice. This allows to both function as a Calm Mind win condition in addition to functioning as one of the strongest Expanding Force clickers on Psyspam, or as a Bulky Trick Room option for a variety of archetypes.

eragon's Gardevoir Rain

https://pokepast.es/ede9c356bfe94f5c


Mega Scizor
While a bit of more niche pick, Mega Scizor functions as a strong breaker on rain, where it reliably answers Flutter Mane and Rillaboom.

zee's Vish + MSciz Rain

https://pokepast.es/59454a31ccbbc4db

eragon's Basculegion Rain

https://pokepast.es/b89bbe95a348a218

Mega Tyranitar
Mega Tyranitar functions as a fairly strong anti-meta option, capable of annoying archetypes like sun and pairing with strong Sand Rush Pokemon like Dracovish and Dracozolt.

Schister's Sand Balance

https://pokepast.es/5448c22c0e57bf14

Mega Camerupt
Mega Camerupt is one of the strongest Full Room attackers in the tier, firing off powerful Heat Waves and Earth Powers. Mega Camerupt benefits from the strength of Trick Room setters like Stakataka and Sinistcha.

eragon's Mega Camerupt Fullroom

https://pokepast.es/3ee71059fab307c3

Mega Charizard X
Mega Charizard X functions as an extremely bulky fire type that spreads burns while still being able to OHKO Pokemon like Flutter Mane and Rillaboom with minimal attack investment thanks to Tough Claws. Rillaboom pairs excellently with it thanks to being able to turn off Misty Terrain for Will-o-Wisp and provide passive healing for Charizard.

eragon's Zard X Balance

https://pokepast.es/c8990b487c3bf84b

Mega Aerodactyl
Mega Aerodactyl is the fastest non-Prankster Tailwind in the tier.

eragon's Mega Aero Balance

https://pokepast.es/daf01c135bc033e2

Old Samples

shadekirby321's Xurkitree Semiroom

https://pokepast.es/6800e0233ae38f54

Stak Sun by EVERYONE (Glimmer's version)

https://pokepast.es/a1470851ed78f770

LogIce's Mega Gardevoir Psyspam

https://pokepast.es/c962ae6257a02531

eragon's Mega Camerupt Fullroom

https://pokepast.es/cf6f56241399dc5e

tyo and shadekirby321's Mega Aerodactyl + Xurkitree Semiroom

https://pokepast.es/d647a680da0808c5

Zygarde Setup by eragon11145
https://pokepast.es/74da2a9bfef542c0


Sun by zee
https://pokepast.es/644f83c262757552


Psyspam by eragon11145
https://pokepast.es/908b122205db0e15


Stakataka Semiroom by sir jelloton
https://pokepast.es/ba574d6eb3d65048


Archuladon Rain by bage1 Urshifu Banned
https://pokepast.es/dd211774c2a3f101


Entei Offense by eragon11145 Urshifu Banned
https://pokepast.es/7ac344a60e927cee


Gothitelle Semi-TR by Iceberg77
https://pokepast.es/4a561566d6a054af


Kyurem-Black Setup by zee Coaching Banned
https://pokepast.es/a976400f6bf111ea


Coaching Zamazenta + Zygarde by Iceberg77 Coaching Banned
https://pokepast.es/3c0375f326562c9a


Regieleki Rain v2 by glimmerrdust Outdated but legal
https://pokepast.es/caadbd6343bc4ecc
/////

Mega TTar + Zygarde by glimmerrdust Zygarde Banned
https://pokepast.es/5144b6759b01a83b
/////

Tailwind Sun Offense by qsns Outdated but legal
https://pokepast.es/39caebb4462e7c3b
/////

Coaching Zamazenta + CM Fini by YoBuddy Coaching + Annihilape Banned
https://pokepast.es/2ffa0dc3fa90e9ca
/////

Dondozo + Mega Mence by qsns Dondozo Banned
https://pokepast.es/3553b2b145256e13
/////

Dondozo + Genesect/Chien-Pao by qsns
https://pokepast.es/2dc98e8148e5b991 Dondozo + Genesect Banned
/////

Regieleki Rain by glimmerrdust Outdated but legal
https://pokepast.es/d5c97126b1696006
/////

Zard-Y Sun Offense by Nido-Rus Outdated but legal
https://pokepast.es/66bff22eaec55b1b
/////

Mega-TTar Sand + Genesect by smudgerox Genesect Banned
https://pokepast.es/798783f2a9fbdad1
/////

Tier Leaders:
Smudge
big pichu

Tier Council:
Smudge
big pichu
eragon11145
Nido-Rus
Glimmer
sir jelloton

 

[Smudge]

The viability rankings have moved! Check out the new thread here.

 

[AIRedzone]

LET'S GO smudgerox and big pichu!!!
Time to ban swagger pls and thx

 

[R8]

Apologies - there seems to be a huge misunderstanding: nddoubles got approval to get a forum tournament, but not for a thread yet as we want properly assess how much interest there is for this metagame.

Locking this for now, but worry not I'm sure you'll get approval for the thread eventually. If anyone has questions about this, feel free to pm me. My bad though, I'll blame myself for the miscommunication.

 

[R8]

for now

 

[rinagram]

Two things to address imo:

• Replace the melm sample with something else post-ban, either a similar hard tr or something common that isn’t there like a fini balance
• We should probably create a watchlist for mons potentially on the chopping block (ie Marshadow, Flutter Mane)

 

[Smudge]

Two things to address imo:

• Replace the melm sample with something else post-ban, either a similar hard tr or something common that isn’t there like a fini balance
• We should probably create a watchlist for mons potentially on the chopping block (ie Marshadow, Flutter Mane)

Yes, we will have more samples out by the time the tour starts. And I agree, one of the reserved posts will be used for “On The Radar” type stuff. Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Evie]

Heres a list of some cores ive been finding good and fun:



145 base attack Adaptability Close Combat hits insanely hard, especially with Chien Paos Sword of Ruin. Chien Pao also beats Zygarde and Landorus and can chip Marshadow and Mega Charizard Y into range of Bullet Punch and Close Combat. If you’re worried about Dondozo, Chien Pao has Haze (can also be used to reset Intimidate drops) and will always outspeed Dondozo. If you’re worried about Flutter Mane, Lucario has Bullet Punch. Lucario also resists Rillaboom’s Grassy Glide and anything faster than Lucario will die to Sucker Punch + Bullet Punch.



Both Mew and Mega Kangaskhan provide Fake Out support which is very strong in combination with Urshifu, as Urshifu ignores Protect, allowing you to always stop a pokemon from moving and hit it with a Choice Banded Wicked Blow. Mew provides extra support with Tailwind, Pollen Puff and Coaching. If you can get a +1 Attack and Defense Kangaskhan under Tailwind, its very hard to beat, as it has incredible physical bulk and cn be healed by Mew’s Pollen Puff. Banded +1 Urshifu clicks buttons and gets kills. However this core can struggle with Dondozo and Marshadow.

will update post as I try stuff out
(update glimmers vr to be in a more readable format btw)

 

[Evie]

Sorry for double post but wanted these to be separate. Decided to make a personal VR based on the one glimmer made but with a few additions and most importantly, sub tiers. Pokemon are not ordered within ranks. Let me know if you have any changes you think i should make, as this mainly comes from the decent amount of watching and playing i have done.

Letters version

S

Incineroar
Flutter Mane
Rillaboom
Tapu Fini

S-

Amoonguss
Mega Charizard Y
Chi-Yu
Ting-Lu

A+

Marshadow
Urshifu-Single-Strike
Genesect
Landorus-I
Chien-Pao
Mega Salamence

A

Dondozo
Tatsugiri
Mega Metagross
Zygarde
Mega Kanghaskan
Kartana
Whimsicott
Mega Lucario
Mew

A-

Mega Camerupt
Deoxys-Attack
Diancie
Mega Diancie
Great Tusk
Iron Bundle
Kyurem-Black
Politoed
Regieleki
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
Volcanion
Tornadus-I
Walking Wake
Jirachi
Landorus-T

B+

Mega Swampert
Kingdra
Galarian Moltres
Iron Hands
Porygon 2
Heatran
Naganadel
Annihilape
Indeedee-Female
Gothitelle
Celesteela
Stakataka

B

Smeargle
Roaring Moon
Tsareena
Zeraora
Zamazenta-Hero

B-

Thundurus-T
Dracovish
Mega Tyranitar
Mega Manectric
Spectrier
Wo-Chien
Mega Alakazam
Kommo-o

C+

Gholdengo
Tyranitar
Ferrothorn
Palafin
Iron Jugulis
Araquanid

tier 1-5 version

Tier 1

Incineroar
Flutter Mane
Rillaboom
Tapu Fini
Ting-Lu

Tier 2

Amoonguss
Mega Charizard Y
Chi-Yu
Urshifu-Single-Strike
Marshadow
Landorus-I

Tier 3

Genesect
Chien-Pao
Mega Salamence
Dondozo
Tatsugiri
Mega Metagross
Zygarde
Mega Kanghaskan
Kartana
Whimsicott
Mega Lucario
Mew
Politoed
Mega Camerupt
Tapu Koko

Tier 4

Deoxys-Attack
Diancie
Mega Diancie
Great Tusk
Iron Bundle
Kyurem-Black
Regieleki
Tapu Lele
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
Volcanion
Tornadus-I
Walking Wake
Jirachi
Landorus-T
Mega Swampert
Kingdra
Galarian Moltres
Iron Hands
Porygon 2
Heatran
Naganadel
Annihilape
Indeedee-Female
Gothitelle
Celesteela
Smeargle
Roaring Moon
Tsareena
Zeraora
Stakataka

Tier 5

Thundurus-T
Dracovish
Mega Tyranitar
Mega Manectric
Spectrier
Wo-Chien
Mega Alakazam
Kommo-o
Zamazenta-Hero
Gholdengo
Tyranitar
Ferrothorn
Palafin
Iron Jugulis
Araquanid

 

[rinagram]

my initial thoughts on the metagame look something like this, but i’d be glad to see it discussed
]

personal vr

Tier 1
Amoonguss
Flutter Mane
Incineroar
Rillaboom

Tier 2
Charizard (Mega Y)
Chi-Yu
Dondozo / Tatsugiri
Genesect
Kangaskhan (Mega)
Kartana
Landorus Incarnate
Landorus Therian
Marshadow
Metagross (Mega)
Mew
Salamence (Mega)
Tapu Fini
Ting-Lu
Urshifu (Single Strike)
Whimsicott


Tier 3
Annihilape
Camerupt (Mega)
Celesteela
Diancie
Diancie (Mega)
Great Tusk
Indeedee (F)
Iron Bundle
Iron Hands
Jirachi
Kingdra
Kyurem (Black)
Politoed
Tapu Koko
Tornadus (Incarnate)
Tyranitar
Tyranitar (Mega)
Urshifu (Rapid Strike)
Volcanion
Walking Wake
Zamazenta
Zygarde

Tier 4
Alakazamn (Mega)
Arctozolt
Blastoise
Chien-Pao
Dracovish
Excadrill
Indeedee (M)
Iron Moth
Lucario (Mega)
Ninetales (Alola)
Terrakion
Thundurus (Incarnate)
Thundurus (Therian)
Volcarona

 

[qsns]

Really enjoying this metagame! Going to post 2 teams I've done well with (click sprites for team) and the top 2 tiers of my VR.



This is a take on Cringe Sun that uses stupid abusers like Chi-Yu and Flutter Mane with Tailwind to bulldoze opponents. Order of special attackers usually goes Zard on lead to break -> Chi-Yu to do more breaking -> Flutter to clean, but Flutter can absolutely come in midgame. Covert Cloak Whimsicott is extremely illegal and pushes the teams offense to the next level with Helping Hand. Landorus-T does hazard stuff and switching in stuff, and is super important for pushing damage into bulky Fire resists like Incineroar and Tapu Fini with Tectonic Rage. Stakataka is a great glue mon that significantly improves the matchup into Trick Room and opposing Hyper Offense. Here is a replay of me winning a roomtour with a variation of the team before I settled on Stakataka, also against zee's take on a Cringe Sun team.



I think Dondozo + Tatsugiri gets powercrept out of being a full win condition. There are a ton of teams that have incidental answers to it, like Urshifu or Marshadow, or can chip it down with the increased power level of the tier. However, this doesn't stop the two from being great wallbreakers for powerful, fast hitters in the back. CB Tera Normal Genesect + Sword of Ruin puts up absolutely disgusting numbers and Genesect finds a lot of entry points on Pokemon like Ting-Lu and Rillaboom. Flutter Mane is your speed control and part of the cleanup crew, while Rilla does Rilla things like beating Fini and giving Dozo free Leftovers. I am 6-0 in tests with the team and it feels like a better direction to take Dozo than TSpikes stalling.

(tried to roughly order it)

Quick thoughts
- Flutter Mane is obscenely good and should be on the vast majority of teams. Even if you don't have any particular synergy like Sun or Chi-Yu, it's just the best speed control and cleanup mon in the format. Not sure if it's broken because I've run into too many teams that are just steamrolled by a Tera Fairy Dazzling Gleam.
- Incineroar is good and splashable but there's a decent amount of Intimidate counterplay and it gets worn down + rocks chipped very quickly. I find Rillaboom a lot better in the offensive metagame for creating pins with Grassy Glide.
- Mega Metagross puts up really really stupid numbers with Steel Roller. If you want a laugh just calc it vs random bulky things

 

[zee]

- Cringe Sun, zee version


I wandered into ND because smudge sent me an invite and of course I found my partner in crime, qsns, in the server so I knew we were about to be building some fire teams. The first team I made was really slow and fat and qsns WASHED me with some Zard stuff, which is how I got the inspiration for this. You see two fire and two grass and your first thought is that your Fire and Dragon types are going to have a field day, but between Great Tusk / Flutter Mane and the ungodly damage that comes from Tera Fire Sun HH Boosted Chi Yu or Grassy Terrain Kartana, you quickly find out that the type chart is just a suggestion. Team's not perfect but I think the setup is pretty good for Firespam.

Anyways after todays roomtour I have enough of an understanding to loosely order the top of a VR, so I present it to you:

<<Tier 1>>
Flutter Mane
Rillaboom

I think these two are in a league of their own and it's hard to build without at least one. I'm seeing Incineroar and Tapu Fini in tier 1/S in other lists, but personally I think they're really easy to overwhelm if done right and their passivity is their undoing. Flutter and Rilla are active, momentum grabbing Pokemon that can miraculously stand out amongst a sea of high BSTs and insane power creep.

<<Tier 2>>
Mega Charizard-Y
Mega Metagross
Mega Salamence

Not tiering megas separately or anything but just wanna comment on these three and then I'll be done with blurbs. Charizard is an insane damage dealer that enables Protosynthesis users, Chi-Yu, and, well, itself. It has a variety of moves it can viably run and the luxury to opt between a variety of EV spreads, from 4 HP to Max HP and every point of Speed and Special attack in between. Salamence is notable because it gets to drop Intimidate, is one of the bulkiest users of Tailwind, and stat + type checks a lot of the tier. Metagross stands out as a viable steel with excellent coverage, and I'd be remiss if I didn't shoutout the insanity that is Tough Claws Steel Roller

Chi-Yu
Dondozo
Incineroar
Genesect
Landorus-Therian
Tapu Fini
Tatsugiri
Ting-Lu
Urshifu
Whimsicott:

<<Tier 3>>
Amoonguss
Chien-Pao
Indeedee-F
Iron Bundle
Iron Hands
Kangaskhan-Mega
Kyurem-Black
Landorus
Lucario-Mega
Mew
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Volcanion
Zygarde


I'm probably missing like a dozen pokemon I'd fit in these tiers, but for now these are what I've seen and how I'd rank them.

 

[Veecy]

I played this format for the first time yesterday in a room tour, where I got second using Nidorus's sun team. I had anticipated going in that Charizard-Y would be very strong alongside Chi-Yu and the many Protosynthesis mons, but I was not prepared for the sheer level of dominance the sun style would have. I faced down several opposing sun teams, but more notably also non-sun teams which seemed rather well-equipped to deal with the style. Incineroar, Tapu Fini, and Tera-Fairy Ting-Lu all fell to some combination of Overheat, Heat Wave, Dazzling Gleam, and Tera-Water Hydro Steam, including one team which brought all three.
I won't pretend to be any kind of an expert on this metagame. But I have to be honest, the tournament left me feeling like sun was far too centralizing of a metagame force, to a point where it definitely turned me off from pursuing the metagame any further. Against non-sun opponents, it seemed there was nothing they could do to really stop my sweep. Against sun opponents, the matchup generally seemed to come down to who managed their Tailwind turns better. It would be easy to point fingers at Chi-Yu, Walking Wake, and Flutter Mane, but I think the real problem here is Charizard-Y. Though its allies do more of the sweeping, Charizard's sun is what enables them to move so fast and hit so hard. Removing Charizard-Y would still leave Torkoal (and Ninetales I guess), both of which lack the incredible support option that is Charizard's Tailwind, and both of which are also much less offensively threatening themselves. Banning Charizard-Y would still leave Sun a place in the metagame, but not in nearly the dominant capacity it has right now.
Again, I'm no expert in the metagame, but I thought that it might be valuable to share my experience as a Gen 7 DOU player who was turned away from pursuing ND DOU more or less entirely by one Pokémon.

 

[Glimmer]

Hi everyone! Happy to see this format finally getting the attention it deserved, and today I will be talking about the pokemon that are Good rank and above in my viable mons list I did early in the format (yes I will fully update it eventually, my vpn being stable is not under my control).

Very Good
Incineroar
Is still one of the best pivots in the entire tier and has one of the best typings into the tier. Its main downsides are being a Fire-type neutral to Fairy and Covert Cloak and Clear Amulet coming to be. But I do not think this holds Incineroar back from being one of the best mons in the tier.

Rillaboom
Rillaboom is still very much Rillaboom, even with the nerfed Grassy Glide BP. Rillaboom is still a core part of Terrain Wars and has a really cool typing into a lot of the meta, and being able to tera or use Z-Moves really boosts its already insane viability.

Tapu Fini
This may seem odd as after Swagger ban but support Tapu Fini sets still live on even with it banned. But that is not the main part of Tapu Fini anymore, it is Calm Mind with Tera. Making its previous weaknesses into resistances commonly against common mons like the aforementioned Rillaboom.

Good
Amoonguss
Redirection and Pollen Puff are insanely strong but being a Grass-type not resistant to Ground is a burden. Amoonguss tends to be fodder against more offensive teams but it does wonderfully into Balance teams, spamming Spore to force out stuff, healing allies and healing itself with Regenerator.

Annihilape
Very Tera hungry half consistent sweeper that needs support and does not like the offensive meta we are in. Still does Annihilape things either way.

Mega Camerupt
Best Trick Room abuser by far but can be outplayed easily with most of the meta mons. Mega Salamence especially gives it a tough time. Still a very strong breaker, those Sheer Force Heat Waves are nothing to ignore.

Celesteela
With its ever annoying Leech Seed set and Meteor Beam set, Celesteela can be threatening to a lot of teams. Even though it can be Tera hungry in this Fire-type infested meta it is still very much a good mon.

Mega Charizard Y
This mon is a backpain. Not only is it a good mon on its own, it also enables other sun abusers to the point of annoyance and distaste for the playstyle. Cannot express my hate for this mon with words. But I have to acknowledge the fact that this is a real threat.

Chi-Yu
Sun abuser and helper in one again. Sun is really eating well this format huh? Beads of Ruin helps both Charizard and Flutter Mane do explosive damage on top of it also firing off very strong Heat Waves.

Chien-Pao
Same old Chien-Pao as in SV, but it gained a new broken friend in Genesect! But then again it gained a few checks (Tapu Fini, Incineroar, Urshifu-RS) but this does not stop its supportive capabilities with Sword of Ruin.

Diancie
Good TR abuser and setter and switches into a bunch of stuff like Chi-Yu and Mega Charizard but I think power creep has caught onto Diancie. The hits are getting a bit too ridiculous for the pretty rock to eat consistently.

Dondozo
Dondozo is so much more handleable in this tier, to the extent that in Dondozo teams most of the value is on hazards, not Dondozo itself. But it is still a force to consider in builder and can screw over a bunch of teams if they do not thread lightly.

Dracovish
Best sand abuser by far. Even though I do not consider Choice Band Dracovish to be the set, Life Orb is still very much a threat especially with Tera Water. This combined with the fact that I think sand is very good right now makes Dracovish deserve a spot.

Flutter Mane
Well well well, Flutter Mane. How does it succeed on being broken now? Simple, Melmetal ban + good Drought mon. Flutter Mane is a very strong and fast pokemon that has a really good STAB combo, and utilises Sun and cranks its power up to 11. It is so fast and strong it can get away with running bulky sets and being even more of a nuicance. This is the only mon from "Good" tier that I considered on putting in "Very Good" for a reason.

Genesect
Genesect pulls off the same old things it has for generations, but now it gets STAB on its moves like Extreme Speed and Thunderbolt with the help of Tera. This makes Genesect a very good breaker and cleaner.

Glimmora
Hazard demand is ever increasing and Glimmora has a monopoly on the market. With its offensive capabilities and ability, Glimmora is a consistently competent hazard setter. Toxic Spikes are especially huge with setup like Annihilape and Dondozo.

Gothitelle
Trapping is good, Fake Out is good, Taunt is good, Trick Room is good. So Gothitelle is good. Its Psychic typing and it not being able to spam Hypnosis due to the pace of the meta makes it not tough to beat. Also is a kind of underexplored mon.

Great Tusk
Another one of suns nuclear bombs. Great Tusks main niche is sun though, its pretty much outclassed by both of the Landorus and Zygarde at pretty much everything else.

Heatran
Honestly not very high on Heatran. Heatran supposedly has good matchups into a lot of stuff like Sun and Rillaboom but it feels really underwhelming. One of the only mons in "Good" that can easily be ranked as "Niche".

Indeedee-Female
Indeedee-F is a core part of Terrain Wars, serving as the more defensively inclined Psychic Terrain mon, giving gateways to pokemon like Annihilape to setup. It also got Trick Room this generation which is a good addition to its kit.

Iron Bundle
Mostly does the same stuff it does in SV, but there is an actual Electric Terrain setter in the tier and it takes advantage of that greatly. But it has new checks in Rillaboom and Volcanion, so it is not as great as it is in SV.

Iron Hands
Another SV broken mon falling right? Wrong, Iron Hands manages to carve itself out a niche. Great bulk and power, unique typing, having access to moves like Fake Out and Swords Dance makes itself a very good pokemon on various teams, most commonly on Electric Terrain and Trick Room compositions.

Jirachi
Best redirection in the tier by far. It has an excellent typing and pairs up really well with the setup mons that are present in Zygarde, Annihilape, Urshifus, and Mega Salamence. Also has other very good moves like Stealth Rock, Encore, Trick Room, Thunder Wave.

Mega Kangaskhan
Another underexplored mon that I think has more potential than Gothitelle. It has access to Fake Out and its Seismic Toss can threaten a 2HKO on most mons in the tier.

Kartana
Kartana is definitely a pretty anti-meta pokemon in that most structures that are not Sun do not pack a consistent enough answer to Kartana. This is just a really valuable and powerful pokemon with access to Tailwind, which sets it apart from the other strong breakers.

Kyurem-Black
Both Assault Vest and Dragon Dance Kyurem-Black are really good especially after Melmetal ban. Assault Vest can take advantage of Tera to turn itself into a type like Electric or Water to make it even more unbearable to take down. The addition of Loaded Dice and Clear Amulet also make the Dragon Dance set very threatening. And that set benefits from Tera Electric too.

Landorus-Incarnate
With its really nice Speed tier, new Sandsear Storm, access to Taunt and Nasty Plot, Landorus-I is a threat and a half. With Tera Landorus is a killing machine. Sandsear Storm is great spread damage, Earth Power can be used for consistency, Sludge Bomb hits Rillaboom, Taunt prevents opposing Speed control, Substitute makes it immune to Fake Out. Landorus is a strong pokemon with many options.

Landorus-Therian
Landorus' Therian forme is less viable than its Incarnate counterpart, with less speed and damage options, but it is still very versatile and far from bad. Flyinium-Z, Groundium-Z, Assault Vest, Choice Scarf, even Choice Band paired with Chien-Pao are all threatening sets. Landorus Therian's Intimidate also makes it stand out from Landorus Incarnate, making it be able to take hits from Zygarde, Marshadow, Genesect etc.

Mega Lucario
A really strong Chien-Pao partner with a decent Speed tier and STAB Adaptability priority in Bullet Punch. This mon really hurts and not much really contests its damage when paired with Chien-Pao.

Mega Manectric
A fast intimidate pivot with a rare but good typing makes Mega Manectric find a solid place in the meta. Its Volt Switches threaten out a lot and it can fire off Snarls, Overheats, Hidden Power Ice to unsuspecting switch-ins like Bulky Flutter Mane, Rillaboom, Landorus, and Zygarde.

Marshadow
With one of the best offensive STAB combos in the game, a godly speed tier, and the ability to shut down any stat boosts with the click of a button, Marshadow is a threatening piece of the metagame. Although 120 attack can be lackluster at times and Marshadow can miss KOs, it is a great pokemon either way.

Mega Metagross
The best offensive mega by a large margin, with its access to Tough Claws STAB Steel Roller, coverage for Landorus-T, Incineroar, and Volcanion, and a fantastic typing. Mega Metagross is one of the strongest mons in the meta with really good bulk and speed, making it extra threatening.

Mew
Mew still achieves to be one of the most annoying and unpredictable mons in the entire tier while getting consistent value, whether it be with Fake Out, Tailwind, Hazards, Status, or even just slotting random coverage for teams weaknesses.

Naganadel
Naganadel is an okay fast Tailwind setter, with the ability to outspeed Mega Salamence and threaten a lot of pokemon like Rillaboom out. Heatran being not too great also makes this mon a pain to check.

Necrozma
Still by far one of the best Psychic Terrain abusers, with its deadly Meteor Beam and +1 Expanding Force, Necrozma is the best pick for PsySpam Trick Room especially since these teams like to run other megas (mainly Mega Camerupt).

Politoed
Best Rain setter, has access to important utility moves like Helping Hand, Haze, Icy Wind, and Encore. Its overall bulk makes it able to live a hit and get out with Eject Button safely, making it a reliable setter.

Porygon2
This bulky Trick Room setter finally gets to get rid of its Normal-typing. Both Tera Ghost and Tera Fairy are good sets and make Porygon2 even more unkillable. It is also the most consistent setter of Trick Room due to this bulk.

Regieleki
Being able to Tera has helped Regieleki a lot. Even though Tera Ice is weak it can still win some matchups, Tera Electric shreds everything thats not a Ground-type with ease. Running it on Electric Terrain makes Regieleki even more potent.

Mega Salamence
Mega Salamence is one of the best if not the best mega in the tier. With two of its sets being incredibly strong in their own rights. Tailwind Mega Salamence has incredible flexibility and can be fit on a lot of teams due to its unique defensive and offensive profile. And Dragon Dance is a powerful sweeper that is contrasted well with the redirectors of the tier, mainly Jirachi.

Smeargle
Even though Smeargle has awful stats, it makes up for it with its access to Decorate, Fake Out, Spore, Revival Blessing, and Moody. Even though Smeargle is not by any means a splashable mon, if you can slot it in, it will do its job.

Mega Swampert
The meta is quite hostile towards Mega Swampert, with Tapu Fini, Rillaboom, Mega Salamence out and about trying to ruin it. And although Swampert does take a hit from viability, it is by no means not good. It has very good power in combination with coverage for Rillaboom and Mega Salamence, so with enough support in Rain, Mega Swampert can still thrive.

Tapu Koko
Tapu Koko is purely a Electric Terrain setter. But do not count it off for being solely a setter, Tapu Koko sets up a very threatening archetype and can be threatening in its own right since Electric is such a good type.

Tapu Lele
The more offensively geared Psychic Terrain setter finds itself a place in more offensive archetypes, providing a lot of damage while still bringing the utility of Psychic Terrain.

Tatsugiri
Dondozo's "roommate" has the exact same issues Dondozo does, read that.

Ting-Lu
Ting-Lu does wonders into this more Special Attack oriented metagame. Its great typing and bulk complimented with the powerful Hazards and Ruination makes this wall not so passive and makes it get a lot of value.

Tornadus-Incarnate
Prankster Tailwind is valuable as ever. And with its newly added Bleakwind Storm and Covert Cloak, Tornadus-I made itself a good offensive Tailwind pick. Although it has less utility moves than Whimsicott, the typing and power make up for it.

Tsareena
With priority like Fake Out, Grassy Glide, Bullet Punch, Extreme Speed, and Sucker Punch being more popular than ever, Tsareena finds itself in a good spot. Although its typing competes with Rillaboom, teams that do not want Rillaboom can take advantage of the typing greatly.

Mega Tyranitar
Mega Tyranitar is a more offensive version of Ting-Lu, with a 164 Attack stat it can put Sun out of its misery with powerful Stone Edges and Low Kicks. Although Rock Dark is generally frowned upon as a typing, it does pretty good into this meta, resisting Dark, Fire, Flying, and Ghost is pretty huge.

Tyranitar
Basically worse Mega Tyranitar in every aspect, except you preserve the mega slot and give Tyranitar an item and the ability to Tera.

Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
Being the more defensively capable Urshifu, Urshifu-RS finds itself having a spot on Balance teams due to its solid bulk, incredible typing and power. Surging Strikes is critical on hitting Intimidate users and neither Urshifus power can be avoided with Protect. With their new access to Swords Dance, they can also be potent setup sweepers.

Urshifu-Single-Strike
Urshifu-SS is the more offensively inclined Urshifu, having a better secondary STAB and a better secondary move in Sucker Punch. Even though Fighting Dark dual typing with just okay bulk doesn't seem like it can pull off Swords Dance, with Focus Sash and redirection this Urshifu can also utilise Swords Dance.

Volcanion
Volcanion has a very good and unique typing paired with a really good ability for it in Water Absorb. This makes Volcanion a great check to pokemon like Iron Bundle and Walking Wake while keeping its offensive profile. It is a prime utiliser of Z-Moves and can run items like Leftovers, Safety Goggles, and Assault Vest.

Walking Wake
Another one of Sun's deadly weapons, Walking Wake is a power house with Sun boosted Hydro Steam and Draco Meteor. Few pokemon can actually switch into its attacks but these mons also happen to be near the top of the tier list.

Whimsicott
The more annoying Prankster Tailwind setter Whimsicott while being nowhere near as offensively threatening, its utility toolbox in Encore, Taunt, Fake Tears, and Helping Hand make it exert a lot of pressure.

Zamazenta
Zamazenta is a Coaching bot. But it is good at being a Coaching bot, with an incredible base Speed stat and bulk. Coaching is also just very important for a lot of mons like Zygarde, Genesect, Urshifu, and even Ting-Lu.

Zygarde
Zygarde is an incredible offensive pokemon that has a very strong spread STAB move in Thousand Arrows while being able to boost it with Tera. That is not all about Zygarde though, as Dragon Dance sets are also very potent with Tera and Clear Amulet.

Thoughts on the Metagame

Sun feels very frustrating as of right now, not only is it boosting the viability of already very good mons, it is also supported by very good mons that makes the archetype so oppressive in the first place. I fear this may devolve into Weather Wars in the future, as the best way I have found to combat Sun was running my own weather (mostly Sand as Tyranitar has a good matchup into most sun pokemon in general). This I feel is pretty unhealthy for the meta and even with ways to combat Sun, Sun always has a fighting chance due to its beneficiaries being so good even by themselves. Hyper Offense and Fat teams are also nearly completely invalidated by Sun, to the point where I have genuinely considered running Shadow Ball Blissey on Fat.

My Favourite Team



The goal behind this team when I was building this was getting a Balance to cteam against Sun. While it is also good against Sun, this team evolved to be way more viable than I anticipated and quickly grew on me. Tyranitar and Volcanion are both criminally underrated pokemon as of right now, I hope they get more attention in the future. Jirachi + Zygarde is a broken combo, Tornadus is way too under appreciated and Rillabooms need to run Tera Blast more often. That's all from me, if you read this till the end, have a good day (otherwise have a slightly worse than good day :3).

 

[bagel]

An absolutely massive, huge, enormous congratulations to bage1 on their inspiring win of the first double elimination livetour!

Thanks to everyone that joined, and bunnyy for getting everything going! I hope the tier continues having these as they are a great way to push meta development, and, most of all: they're fun! We only had 12 people join this one but I hope we can get bigger turnout for future livetours, especially with the Swiss Kickoff Tour starting soon.

Replays

Generally in order

volcaronya vs AIredzone
qsns vs Marinas Lab
Despacito87 vs bage1
Panurome vs eragon11145
Iceberg77 vs epic17x
Marinas Lab vs Despacito87
qsns vs bage1
AIredzone vs bage1
qsns vs Despacito87
ThesilvySilv vs Sunrose
bage1 vs epic17x
ThesilvySilv vs Despacito87
Panurome vs Iceberg77
AIredzone vs ThesilvySilv
Panurome vs Iceberg77
AIredzone vs Panurome
AIredzone vs epic17x
AIredzone vs bage1
AIredzone vs bage1

bunnyy has also put together a nice spreadsheet that includes all of the replays as well as usage and winrates for every pokemon! There's still not a lot of data to go off of, but each week the results from the livetour will be added and we'll be able to see some interesting trends and stats.

Winners
Rillaboom (9-8): Rillaboom made the transition to National Dex without losing a step, and has proven itself to be one of the most splashable and valuable mons in the tier once again. Most teams used it as a standard Fake Out pivot, threatening damage with Grassy Glide, but we did see some Choice Band Rillaboom paired with Chien-Pao from both qsns and bage1, who used it more as a breaker to deal massive damage and force pins.

Landorus-T (7-3): An oldgen titan, Lando-T is showing it can keep up with the new meta, offering near-unrivaled utility. It can both set and remove Hazards, neuter threatening attackers with Intimidate, and serve as a breaker with its massive offensive capabilities and ability to make use of several Z-Crystals such as Flyinium-, Groundium-, and Rockium-Z.

Kingambit (5-1): Its impressive record is carried by ThesilvySilv and AIredzone's solid runs, where on both teams it is used as a statstick that leverages its coveted Steel typing and strong priority in Sucker Punch to force positive damage trades.

+ Dondozo + Tatsugiri (3-1): The controversial pair was used just 4 times, but dropped only 1 game. Used by both qsns and bage1, they made use of the pair as a strong breaking combo that can each offer utility and defensive value on their own when not combined, as opposed to building around the combo as the sole win-condition paired with Toxic Spikes.

Losers
Whimsicott (5-8): I kid, I kid. 13 uses is a lot and shows that people think its viable and should be used. Just another note that there's not enough data to truly gain any super inciteful knowledge about the metagame. But it is fun to dunk on mons for going negative!

Notable Teams



AIredzone made their deep run with a couple teams, but qsns's Cringe Sun was the standout, as they never dropped a game with it. The team is stacked with fast, strong attackers such as Flutter Mane, Chi-Yu, and Mega Charizard-Y which can all punch massive wholes into opposing with speed support from Whimsicott's Prankster Tailwind, and damage boosts from Helping Hand. Kingambit and Landorus-T operate as glue mons, patching up the defensive weaknesses of the fast and fragile offensive core, while also not being any slouches in the damage department themselves. Landorus also serves the all important role of hazard control, otherwise the team can potentially be exploited by Stealth Rocks.


The aforementioned Choice Band Rillaboom is used here to compliment other physical partners for Chien-Pao such as Urshifu-R and Genesect. Landorus-T and Glimmora set and remove hazards, chipping opposing mons into range of the strong physical priority attacks that the rest of the team is filled with. Flyinium-Z Lando-T showed its value in game by wiping the opposing Rillaboom off the board, opening up the rest of the team as they no longer needed to fear its disruption and priority damage.

Observations

Chien-Pao offense seems strong, as the tier is plentiful with strong physical attackers and priority spammers to take advantage of its deadly Beads of Ruin ability. I could potentially see the rise of Psyspam teams to try and counteract this, but the plethora of terrains makes these teams hard to pilot. Another form of counterplay could be teams that put on even more pressure and force trades with the often frail pokemon that make up these sorts of frameworks. Alternatively, maybe the meta shifts to even more bulk so teams can afford to soak up hits easier.

Sun is here and here to stay. The sun setter is good and the sun abusers are good. Flutter Mane is perhaps the premier mon in the format after the Melmetal ban, dealing obscene damage even while investing heavily in its defenses. Chi-Yu and Great Tusk are the other common abusers, which are both extremely threatening mons in their own right. So many of the top Pokemon synergize with Sun it can feel like natural conclusion to the format at times- Rillaboom threatens Rocks and Waters that could otherwise withstand strong fire attacks, Landorus-T deals with hazards that scare Fire types, Chien-Pao boosts already strong attackers to a new level, etc. I don't even think a Charizard-Y ban would solve the issue, as Sun probably wouldn't miss a step if forced to run Torkoal. A strong archetype for sure and I look forward to see how it evolves to deal with rising counterplay such as Mega Tyranitar and AV Glimmora.

Dondozo and Tatsugiri is a strong combination (shocker, I know). The pair is finding more success as a complementary offensive threat rather than a dedicated win condition. The ability to be flexible with the pair and allow them to function along with the rest of the team is really where they gain their strength. The threat that your opponent could always just decide to switch in Tatsugiri forces so many mind games of whether to deal with Dondozo or its partner. Personally, I think there is counterplay available such as Haze, Marshadow, strong special attackers such Flutter Mane, and Rillaboom to force a tera. I also want to see what new counterplay the community develops to deal with the combination.


I really didn't expect to enjoy the tier as much as I have been, so thanks to everyone for making it happen, and I look forward to next weeks livetour!

 

[Smudge]

Samples have been updated! Thank you to glimmerrdust , qsns, and YoBuddy.

 

[bagel]

It's been close to 2 weeks since I've started to play the tier so I thought I'd share my personal VRish + some individual pokemon spotlights.

Tiers organized alphabetically (hopefully). Bloated because it's still murky early meta

Tier 1
Flutter Mane
Rillaboom

Tier 2
Amoonguss
Annihilape
Mega Charizard Y
Chien-Pao
+ Dondozo + Tatsugiri
Genesect
Glimmora
Gothitelle
Incineroar
Mega Kangaskhan
Landorus-Therian
Mega Metagross
Mega Salamence
Tapu Fini
Volcanion
Whimsicott
Zygarde

Tier 3

Chi-Yu
Diancie
Deoxys-Attack
Gholdengo
Great Tusk
Iron Bundle
Iron Hands
Jirachi
Kartana
Kingambit
Landorus-Incarnate
Marshadow
Mew
Porygon2
Scream Tail
Stakataka
Tapu Koko
Tapu Lele
Ting-Lu
Tornadus-Incarnate
Mega Tyranitar
Tyranitar
Palafin
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
Urshifu-Single-Strike
Mega Venusaur
Walking Wake
Zamazenta

Tier "Stuff I've seen a decent amount but don't think is tier 1-3"

Mega Abomasnow
Mega Alakazam
Mega Camerupt
Mega Diancie
Dracovish
Kyurem-Black
Alolan Ninetales
Politoed
Pelipper
Regieleki
Mega Swampert

Tier "Stuff I haven't seen/used much (or at all) but think seem interesting"

Armarouge
Azumarill
Blastoise
Mega Blastoise
Celesteela
Dragapult
Dragonite
Dracozolt
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Mega Gardevoir
Garganacl
Grimmsnarl
Mega Gyarados
Hoopa-Unbound
Indeedee-Female
Iron Jugulis
Iron Moth
Klefki
Mega Manectric
Maushold
Metagross:
Meowscarada
Naganadel
Necrozma
Nihilego
Pheromosa
Roaring Moon
Rotom-Wash
Mega Scizor
Sylveon
Togekiss
Tsareena
Torkoal
Volcarona
Zapdos
Zeraora

I think it's clear Flutter Mane is by far and away the best mon in the tier right now. It has such strong breaking power that it can afford to invest heavily in its bulk to beat the most straightforward counterplay in priority:

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Flutter Mane: 278-330 (88.5 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0+ SpA Choice Specs Flutter Mane Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 338-402 (112.2 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I just went with the most common bulky Flutter Mane spread being used, but it can easily afford to invest more into defense, and Flutter Manes should be investing more than 0 evs into special attack. This, along with being naturally immune to Fake Out allow it to exert a massive amount of pressure even in neutral board positions. Flutter Mane is also super easy to support as it synergizes extremely well with other good pokemon such as Rillaboom, Mega-Charizard Y, Whimiscott, and Chi-Yu. I think a pokemon that has the ability to 2HKO the entire tier definitely should be looked at. Personally I think sun is probably not broken if Flutter gets banned, but who can really predict how the meta would shake out.

On the other hand I view Rillaboom as a very healthy meta presence (partly because it has the ability to threaten Flutter Mane better than anything else in the tier aside from some niche options). With so many high powered threats, consistent disruption and defensive utility is really appreciated to help slow down the tier a bit. I say all of this but my favorite way to use Rillaboom has been as a partner for Chien-Pao with a Choice Band instead of the standard Assult Vest.

Dondozo + Tatsugiri is another strong threat that doesn't like seeing Rillaboom, as Dozo is usually forced to tera out of its natural water type and Grassy Terrain means running Earthquake is unviable. I've talked a good amount how I think the pairing isn't broken at the moment, but I do admit I think a close eye should be kept on them. Personally I don't see much wrong with pokemon such as Tapu Fini/Volcanion/Palafin being "forced" to run Haze, as there are plenty of other setup pokemon in the format such as Annihilape, Zygarde, and Kyurem-B. What seperates DozoTats from Flutter Mane for me is the amount of support each need to be successful, as well as rewarding skill in the builder. DozoTats + 4 isn't always going to work, but Flutter Mane can be slapped on any team of 5 looking for a 6th and offer value every game. DozoTats also has a lot of room in the builder to innovate, while Flutter is just a straight up broken fast damage dealer.

Genesect might be the most flexible mon in the tier. Its incredibly easy to throw a Choice Band on it and spam Extreme Speed + U-turn next to Chien Pao, and Choice Scarf is similarly useful in picking off weakened foes while being not quite as threatening. However I've also had sucess with both Shift Gear and Assult Vest sets in testing. Shift Gear is able to take advantage of the incredible offensive pressure it generates upon entering the board to boost and become even scarier. I've been using Clear Amulet on these sets to bypass the plethora of Intimdate mons in the meta right now, but Life Orb might also work. Assult Vest sets leverage its great typing and trade incredibly well with most of the tier. Access to defensive Tera really helps out both of these sets, as completely flipping a matchup for even one turn can totally change the tide of a game.

I feel like the early metagame has been disrespecting Amoonguss quite a bit. So many team's only Spore counterplay is a grass type like Whimsicott or Rillaboom, which can't threaten Amoonguss back. Tapu Fini teams often rely soley on Fini to keep Amoonguss from putting everything to sleep, which can be expoited by Amoonguss' teammates to stretch Fini thin. Even when it can't spore; Rage Powder, Pollen Puff, and its great bulk can keep it from being a dead mon on a team. Aborbing Toxic-Spikes is an added bonus, as many teams just fold to them otherwise.

Speaking of Toxic Spikes, Glimmora has been one of my favorite pokemon to use so far. I've generally opted for bulkier Assult Vest sets for the defensive utility. Even without much attack investment, Glimmora trades well as its natural Special Attack is so great (stronger than Hydreigon!) and its natural typing + ability is strong into the meta. Physical attackers are generally reluctant to touch it and set Toxic Spikes due to how devasting they can be and the Assult Vest lets is shrug off even Super Effective special attacks. A consistent hazard remover is nice for both pivot-heavy balance teams and frail offensive teams, and the potential to poison both opponents + break sashes keeps a turn spent clicking Mortal Spin from being a momentum sap. There are plenty other viable rocks setters, so I personally haven't felt like I have missed out on anything by opting for the Assult Vest over something like a Focus Sash or Sitrus Berry.

A pokemon I'm suprised hasn't been spammed is Annihilape. Its not as strong as in SV DOU, but still incredibly threatening with the right support. Instead of the all in on Ape teams you'd see in SV DOU, I think Annihilape is best off next to other strong threats that appreciate the urgency opponents often feel like they need to respond to Annihilape with. In turn, Ape likes the attention strong attackers grab in order to find time to set up and become more threatening. Defiant is an amazing ability in this metagame with many teams running 2 intimidate mons, which makes it a great partner for other physical attackers like Mega Metagross, Mega Salamence, etc. The tier has a ton of redirection options, and Annihilape can adjust its set according to the support you give it, whether that be with a Misty Seed next to Heal Pulse Tapu Fini, or a faster set with Tailwind support from something like Beat Up Whimsicott. Often times just 1 bulk up is enough to basically end the game and give space for the other threats on your team to clean up.

That's all for now, I can't wait for 75% of the stuff I've written here to become laughable takes in 2 months, but for now I hope this can be helpful/interesting to someone. I've been really enjoying the tier in spite of my expectations, and I look forward to see what new strategies pop up and how the metagame develops.

 

[ratpacker]

Since I'm dropping out of kickoff, here are some teams i made for it :

Annihilape balance

Heatran speed EVs are to outspeed a -1 speed Mega-Metagross

E-terrain offense

Incineroar lives Close Combat from -1 Life Orb Marshadow

Scarf Landorus Sand

Flutter Mane lives Bullet Punch from Mega-Metagross, Tyranitar outspeeds Landorus in Tailwind, Dracovish outspeeds Pheromosa in Sand.

Mega-Metagross Double Terrain

 

[Smudge]

The tier has grown a lot in the last month and I'd like to thank everyone for their participation! With that in mind, we've added two new council members to help us further improve the tier as more tiering action is required; please give your warm welcome to zee and qsns!

In other news, we should be doing a viability ranking vote this week, and the teambuilding competition is now open! It features Mega Tyranitar this week, feel free to come participate.

I'll also be posting my thoughts on the metagame so far soon, just been very busy with the end of the school semester.

 

[Smudge]

We now have a proper viability rankings! It's updated on post #2, and you can see each council member's vote here. We hope that this will be helpful to current and new players of the tier alike. Thanks to glimmerrdust for helping with the image version!

We elected to not show the UR mons and keep it down to 4 tiers in the interest of keeping the list as slim as possible while still including things that are reasonably successful and getting usage.

If you don't see something you feel should be on the list, feel free to make a case for it with replays and an explanation and we'll vote on it on the next batch, probably in a couple weeks after some more rounds of kickoff have been played.

 

[Glimmer]

Since I was the one who made the TierMaker of the Viability Rankings as I am not a sane person, here are my thoughts of the meta and how I rank the mons!First off, let us start with the differences between my list and the official VR.


I have no actual idea how Rillaboom did not make it onto Tier 1. It exerts so much pressure with Fake Out, Grassy Surge + Grassy Glide, and Tera, that I think it is one of the only Pokemon in the tier that can contest the number 1 slot. The set variety also is not that bad, Assault Vest which is the best set and has a lot of coverage options, Choice Band which deals a lot of damage when paired with Chien-Pao while keeping its defensive utility, and Taunt which can be ran with Sitrus Berry or Grassium-Z to shut down Amoonguss, Stealth Rock, and speed control. Rillaboom's valuable Grass-typing also lets it switch into a lot of threats like Zygarde, both Landorus (provided Therian is not carrying Flyinium-Z), Iron Bundle, Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, and most importantly Calm Mind Tapu Fini.


While still a top Pokemon, I do not think Genesect provides enough value for a team to warrant Tier 1. The set variety is there, but a lot of the time Genesect is Tera hungry for damage or defensive purposes. But that is not to write off Genesect as an okay Pokemon. Genesect is still very much an offensive beast and has decent defensive utility between its pivoting and the rare Steel-typing.


Both Landorus have a similar case. Landorus Incarnate is actually the lesser of the two right now in my opinion, but it is still very good, 101 is a really good speed tier getting a jump on base 100s and everything below (Chi-Yu, Genesect, Urshifus, Tapu Lele). And because it gained Sandsear Storm it can now do spread damage getting rid of one of its only weaknesses in SS. But there are more checks to Lando-I in this format, Salamence-Mega, Charizard-Mega-Y, and the actually good Landorus-Therian. So while at it let's talk about Therian too. Landorus-Therian sacrifices the good speed tier of Incarnate for one of the best abilities in the game and more power. Now you might ask "Why is the arguably UR mon in SS all of a sudden Tier 2 Miss Glimmer?" well it got Stomping Tantrum. And Z-Moves too I suppose, which Landorus-T is the best abuser of. Landorus-T while not being bulkier than Incarnate, has a way better defensive profile due to not having to go Max Speed EVs and having access to Intimidate, which lets it check Marshadow, Zygarde, Genesect, and both Tyranitar. Landorus-T is also one of the best users of Stealth Rock, which is essential in most playstyles if you are not running Hyper Offense.


I feel like when this VR was being voted on, people weren't running Bulky Modest Tornadus. And a bulkier and stronger set on Tornadus does it wonders, letting it survive hits from the Urshifus, Marshadow, and Flutter Mane. This lets Tornadus click its main moves in Tailwind and Bleakwind Storm way easier, making it in my opinion the second best Tailwind setter in the tier.


With the drop off of Incineroar and the abundance of Stealth Rock, there are few actual checks to Kartana. On top of being a really strong Pokemon, it can remove its checks with a Z-Move and also set up Tailwind with its good speed tier. Kartana also pairs up well with Chien-Pao, as Chien-Pao boosts Kartana's already monstrous damage output and threatens out Flying-types that mean to check Kartana. If the team already has a Tailwind setter, Kartana can opt for a Substitute set to be immune to Intimidate and Fake Out, which are the primary ways of holding off Kartana as it needs to Protect on a Fake Out due to its miserable bulk especially on the special side.


Follow Me and Steel-typing are really valuable in this meta (as mentioned with Genesect) and combining this with Jirachi's absurd bulk and last move options I think Jirachi deserves Tier 2. Jirachi pairs up well with almost all set-up Pokemon, ranging from Annihilape to Zygarde, its typing covers a lot of common weaknesses of set-up sweepers, such as Ice, Dragon, Fairy, and Psychic. Jirachi is also a great counter to almost all kinds of Rillaboom and Tapu Fini, especially with Encore as last move. Jirachi can also run Thunder Wave if paired with a non speed boosting set-up sweeper such as Annihilape, giving it the jump on a lot of Pokemon such as Chien-Pao. Thunder Wave also lets Jirachi function more on its own with Serene Grace Iron Head. Jirachi can also slot in Stealth Rock and is a decent user of it.


Psychic Terrain is insanely underrated, blocking priority for physically frail Pokemon such as Flutter Mane is crucial. Indeedee-F has good utility in Follow Me, Trick Room, and Heal Pulse; while Tapu Lele is a very strong attacker with access to Taunt. While Tapu Lele does compete with Flutter Mane in the Offensive Fairy role, I think they can form a nasty combo when paired together. And while Indeedee-F can be compared to Jirachi, I think Psychic Surge and being immune to Ghost-types makes it reasonable to run Indeedee.


While Rapid Strike might have fallen off when compared to its presence in SS, I do not think you can count off Urshifu-R as Tier 4, as a lot of teams rely on Rillaboom, Tornadus, and Volcanion to check Urshifu-R. And most of the time Urshifu has the power to blows through these checks with ease given the proper support. Water Bear also has a better defensive profile than its Dark counterpart, possessing a unique typing of Water/Fighting which checks the likes of Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, and Genesect.

Yeah that is my general thoughts about the VR as of right now, and as I made my list in order I will also talk about my top 5 Pokemon (they are actually the top six Pokemon since I cannot for the life of me decide a proper order).

#1/#2
Easily the best offensive Pokemon in the entire tier. Ghost/Fairy typing is really hard to check and with a lot of more Pokemon to pair it with in National Dex (Mega Charizard Y, Both Landorus, Marshadow) it is a really good threat. With the recent surge of Bulky Specs Flutter Mane the mon has become even harder to check.
#1/#2
Already mentioned above but to summarise checks a lot of stuff provides utility with Fake Out and U-turn and pressures almost everything using its priority Grassy Glide and strong Wood Hammer.
#3/#4
The best Tailwind setter with immense power coupled with good bulk and Intimidate before Mega Evolving makes Salamence in my opinion the best Mega. It is very hard to check and provides a lot of value with its fast Tailwinds. It also can check a lot of stuff like Rillaboom, Volcanion, Genesect, and Landorus-I.
#3/#4
It is Incineroar, you and I both know what makes it good. With Fake Out + Parting Shot + Intimidate, Incineroar is easily the best Pokemon when it comes to pivoting. Fire/Dark typing is pretty good into the meta, and it can always Tera out of its weaknesses. The only things pulling Incineroar out of Tier 1 right now are its Stealth Rock weakness and Fairy neutrality while taking up the space of a Fire-type.
#5/#6
With a unique typing complemented by Water Absorb and really good bulk and offenses, Volcanion is easily one of the most splashable Water-types. Checking the likes of Mega Charizard Y, Chi-Yu, and Flutter Mane with ease, Volcanion's defensive profile is really good, and offensively is checked by few other Pokemon that can actually hurt it back. Volcanion can also easily slot in Haze to deal with Dondozo.
#5/#6
As mentioned before, Genesect is a unique offensive Pokemon with a good defensive profile to back it up, abusing Tera to its absolute limit (while still being pretty reliant on it) with Tera Normal Extreme Speed. Assault Vest, Shift Gear, and Choice Band sets are all really good.

 

[qsns]

The council held a vote for Genesect, Flutter Mane, Commander, Urshifu-Single-Strike, and Mega Charizard Y.

As a result, Commander and Genesect are now banned from the tier.

	smudgerox	big pichu	eragon11145	qsns	Spurrific	YoBuddy	zee	RESULTS
Genesect	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	DNB	Ban	Ban
Flutter Mane	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB
Commander	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	DNB	Ban	Ban	Ban
Urshifu	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB
ZardY	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB	DNB

Genesect's Tera Normal CB Extreme Speeds are terrifying. With Download and Sword of Ruin also available to boost its damage output, Genesect is able to reach ridiculous heights such as OHKOing Max HP Tapu Fini. Even without numerous multipliers, Extreme Speed threatens many offensive Pokemon for an OHKO through opposing speed control. Though Intimidate, Tera Ghost and Psychic Terrain seem like reasonable counterplay to this, U-Turn is a very powerful STAB option that gets its user additional chip damage for Extreme Speed later and immediate momentum.

Commander is an extremely warping ability that demands immediate counterplay or risking an immediate loss. Though it exists (Marshadow, Haze, Encore Whimsicott), they are all either very specific team options or vulnerable to Dondozo's numerous options to weasel out of it (mostly Terastallization). This ability does not encourage healthy gameplay and teambuilding.

We're keeping tabs on other things voted on here as well.

Tagging Kris Marty to implement, thank you!

 

[big pichu]

The Council held a vote on Urshifu-Single-Strike
Six members voted to ban (one member abstained), leading to an unanimous ban on Urshifu-Single-Strike.

	smudgerox	big pichu	eragon11145	qsns	Spurrific	YoBuddy	zee	RESULTS
Urshifu	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	Ban	--	Ban

As a result, Urshifu-Single-Strike is now banned from National Dex Doubles.

The always crit power of Wicked Blow alongside the ability Unseen Fist allow Urshifu to ignore Protect and Intimidate, completely negating two of the traditional methods of counterplay to offensive threats in doubles. Additionally, while Urshifu's speed means that it's relatively reliant on speed control, access to Sucker Punch means that it can remove threats with priority, even without speed control. Dark and Fighting also provide excellent STAB options with few resists, and restricting teambuilding and making it difficult to safely switch into Urshifu. This is unhealthy for the metagame, and was detrimental enough to result in a ban.

Tagging Kris Marty to implement, thank you!

 

[Smudge]

Haven't actually written a meta post yet, so here we go.

I'm not a super verbose writer, so this will be pretty brief per mon.

These aren't representative of the council's thoughts.
It's mostly observations based on conversations in the Discord and in this thread.

Things I'm personally keeping an eye on for a potential vote/suspect somewhere down the line if they become a problem

Annihilape

I genuinely hate this mon. I don't like using it because it feels dirty, but I'm surprised people don't use it more. It's generally just ridiculously hard to remove between the bulk up set or the ratpacker (?) innovation of the AV set which seems wild as well. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of it in the future, especially in top cut where people will probably be pulling out all the stops especially with the recent ban and new mons.

Zamazenta

Probably the biggest stat stick in the tier, I don't really think it's super broken but the speed tier is wild and it's quite fat. Some people have complained about it, so it's on my personal radar. Large pool of support moves and very solid damage output.

Urshifu-Rapid

Wouldn't be surprised to see this be abused a lot next, even as a drop in replacement to teams that used the Dark variant. It does similar things, same issue with Tera boosting the damage output to the next level, just water is a slightly worse offensive type.

Things that I think get better after the Dark Urshifu Ban

Jirachi
One of the few mons that was able to simply delete it is just gone now, leaving that to Chi-Yu which isn't used nearly as much, at least from what I've seen. Seems to me like its redirection can be a lot more potent.

Kingambit

Probably the second best sucker punch user next to Chien-Pao now that Shifu is gone. I don't think it gets MASSIVELY better, but definitely a good chunk. Try it out! Way better move pool than in reg SVDOU too.

New Stuff

Basculegion

we do a little last respects clicking
Seems like an amazing late game cleaner, or just something to come in and chunk things early. Either way is fine. Wouldn't be surprised me if it was deemed broken down the line, but I feel like Rilla keeps it in check pretty well most of the time and forces you to burn your Tera.

Ursaluna

The Cocaine Bear itself. Most of the discussion about this monster will go on in the NP thread for SVDOU, and considering how Dark Urshifu's ban there influenced discourse on it in this tier, I expect it to do the same in a similar fashion here, though I think we definitely have a decent bit more counterplay, so it's probably a bit more borderline. Once again, Rilla probably saving the day on some account.

I don't need to say much about what it does, it has insane stabs, coverage, bulk and kills things.

--

I'm very excited to see our tier in the upcoming Doubles Derby, and hope to see our active players starting in that tier!

I'm also intending for us to get a viability rankings update out within the next week or so, so please look forward to that.

 

[Smudge]

double post lol

I totally forgot to update the banlist in the OP, so it's updated now. Sorry about that.