Doubles National Dex Doubles OU - Metagame Discussion - Eevium Z Banned!

[eragon]

rant incoming as I've had an epiphany/woke up to two of the dumbest replays I've ever seen in this tier (1,2) (speaking just for myself ofc)

I've been around this tier since the very beginning, from the first day Mega Gengar was legal, to the days of Genesect ohko'ing tapu fini with espeed, to the NDPL Zygarde meta, to the coaching idiocy just a few months ago. This has always been a very freewheeling tier with a special and unique identity of basically being "DOU's Greatest Hits", and preserving this identity is something that always needs to be kept in mind. From the way I see it, this philosophy has been the single biggest contributor to the state of the tier at any given time: the power level has always been extremely high between the megas, z-moves, mons that aren't legal in any other dou tier, and all the inherent degeneracy of SV's mons(and I think this is primarily a good thing).

However, despite having some really insane mons legal during this tier's life, I've never felt the tier was so uninteresting as it is now. Banning shifu (a really stupid mon that shouldn't be legal in any doubles metagame) has unfortunately messed things up and predictably exposed just how dumb a lot of the mons in this tier really are. Maybe it's just me talking here but I find this metagame dominated by 4 pokemon (Marshadow, Megagross, Zamazenta, and to a lesser extent, Jirachi) that almost certainly won't be legal in any other doubles format with the tools they have here to feel really stupid and unfair. These mons generally just outclass everything else, stat-checking the vast majority of legal mons- when I watch a replay I feel like my first thought (as a player well-versed in the metagame) shouldn't always universally be "why is this legal bruh".

More in-depth thoughts:

.

man. For a very long time stretching back to gen 8 I actually wanted to see how this mon would play in a DOU-level format. After seeing this thing legal for almost a year in this tier, I now regret that position more than any other meta take I've ever had playing mons. The other day I realized that this mon has been the biggest spoiler for the enjoyment of the tier for the majority of its history. It has too many stats to be as fast as it is, and was one of the two big coaching mons while that was legal, probably more unhealthily than zeraora imo (as zera always feels like a more balanced mon in general).
Now, as a result of the context of the metagame, this mon has found another route to causing me to log off the website: the generally physical-heavy metagame and absence of Shifu has led to the rise of IDBP Zama. This was the primary driver of me making this post, as this iron press set feels really dumb from the games I've seen- I don't think iron-press mons are supposed to simultaneously be damn near unkillable (with some variance depending on the matchup) and be the fastest thing in the metagame. I'd like to see this removed personally, but I think other things are likely a priority, as if more special attackers were actually viable I think this mon might be a bit more healthy (tera steel walls the majority of good special attackers that can hit it at the moment).

I really wish we didn't free this mon back at the start of the tier but realistically it's a good thing because now we have enough evidence to bar this mf from being legal in any current gen DOU tier as long as it learns coaching and body press. o7

.

This guy is a pretty fun hyper offensive mon in concept so I'm not upset that we've had this legal for so long but I think with the way the powerlevel has shaken out with the last few bans it might be almost time for this guy to go. This one's pretty simple: it just hits really really hard and with shadow sneak doing so much and hitting the entire tier with unresisted stab coverage (except zoroark-hisui) it's really difficult to outposition. The majority of my losses from laddering ladder tour were from various shadow sneak speedties between Marshadows where I didn't have any other options available to me. It's far from the worst offender on this list here, I def think there's bigger priorities, but we need to keep on this one: it's banned from SM and SS for a reason and realistically with the tier settling a bit in terms of powerlevel Marsh can't really be a player anymore.

.

This is a really solid mon but I don't realllllyyyy understand the hate it's gotten throughout the the tier. Follow Me is admittedly pretty stupid on 100/100/100 bulk but I think it's typing in this metagame is a bit outshadowed by a more broken mon and as a result suffers from having to deal with a lot of attackers that match up well into it typing wise. I'd honestly rather have wellspring on most teams at the moment for how valuable its typing is, but I have to concede that realistically if we get rid of a few things this mon is probably also dumb, I just don't quite see it on the same level of the other mons I'm discussing here. Should be looked at in the future, but at least for me it's very very far from the first priority and I think it's reasonably dealt with currently.

and now for the actual culprit I think needs immediate action:

.

What if you took the best mega in SM, gave it dynamic speed support, a variety of new partners that punish intimidate, and a 120 base power stab move (boosted by it's ability)? Yea. That's Mega Metagross. This behemoth almost entirely outclasses every other mega to the point I'd almost never run any of the others even on teams where they seem like they'd fit. The damage this mon does with heavy slam is really bad for this tier in terms of power level and centralization and I think we'd really see a lot of benefits if we just took it off the table. I don't think any of the other mons here are even close to how stupid this mon is, it trades favorably literally every time, threatens the strongest special attacker with bullet punch, forces torn to run a ridiculous amount of defense investment just to not get ohko'd by a neutral move, ohko's rilla with a pao switch-in, and 2hko's incin after intimidate. There's very little consistent counterplay to this mon as heavy slam will torch even resists for huge amounts when they try to switch in. We quickbanned terapagos for less. Please ban.

TLDR:
This tier is currently at a crossroads between the way it's been treated up until now and creating an actually playable format. Personally, I think we need to just get rid of the broken stuff once and for all and finish what we started with banning shifu. It's fun to play with broken stuff for a little bit but we're approaching the one-year anniversary of the tier and I don't think it's sustainable to keep Natdex Doubles as the safe space for DOU's historically banned mons.
IMO the next steps should probably be:
Ban metagross --> ban zama --> see what marsh/jirachi are like after

 

[Kin+ak (✧∇✧)]

I Do think ban mgross and zama At the same time would be better. I Dont see Jirachi nearly as broken as marsh, and imo Raging bolt is more concerning. Tera Fairy bolt is EVIL and I hope there's no redirection Because spread moves WONT be enough to kill it. Atm what REALLY breaks the tier is Zama and mgross.

 

[Test Bots]

rant incoming as I've had an epiphany/woke up to two of the dumbest replays I've ever seen in this tier (1,2) (speaking just for myself ofc)

I've been around this tier since the very beginning, from the first day Mega Gengar was legal, to the days of Genesect ohko'ing tapu fini with espeed, to the NDPL Zygarde meta, to the coaching idiocy just a few months ago. This has always been a very freewheeling tier with a special and unique identity of basically being "DOU's Greatest Hits", and preserving this identity is something that always needs to be kept in mind. From the way I see it, this philosophy has been the single biggest contributor to the state of the tier at any given time: the power level has always been extremely high between the megas, z-moves, mons that aren't legal in any other dou tier, and all the inherent degeneracy of SV's mons(and I think this is primarily a good thing).

However, despite having some really insane mons legal during this tier's life, I've never felt the tier was so uninteresting as it is now. Banning shifu (a really stupid mon that shouldn't be legal in any doubles metagame) has unfortunately messed things up and predictably exposed just how dumb a lot of the mons in this tier really are. Maybe it's just me talking here but I find this metagame dominated by 4 pokemon (Marshadow, Megagross, Zamazenta, and to a lesser extent, Jirachi) that almost certainly won't be legal in any other doubles format with the tools they have here to feel really stupid and unfair. These mons generally just outclass everything else, stat-checking the vast majority of legal mons- when I watch a replay I feel like my first thought (as a player well-versed in the metagame) shouldn't always universally be "why is this legal bruh".

More in-depth thoughts:

.

man. For a very long time stretching back to gen 8 I actually wanted to see how this mon would play in a DOU-level format. After seeing this thing legal for almost a year in this tier, I now regret that position more than any other meta take I've ever had playing mons. The other day I realized that this mon has been the biggest spoiler for the enjoyment of the tier for the majority of its history. It has too many stats to be as fast as it is, and was one of the two big coaching mons while that was legal, probably more unhealthily than zeraora imo (as zera always feels like a more balanced mon in general).
Now, as a result of the context of the metagame, this mon has found another route to causing me to log off the website: the generally physical-heavy metagame and absence of Shifu has led to the rise of IDBP Zama. This was the primary driver of me making this post, as this iron press set feels really dumb from the games I've seen- I don't think iron-press mons are supposed to simultaneously be damn near unkillable (with some variance depending on the matchup) and be the fastest thing in the metagame. I'd like to see this removed personally, but I think other things are likely a priority, as if more special attackers were actually viable I think this mon might be a bit more healthy (tera steel walls the majority of good special attackers that can hit it at the moment).

I really wish we didn't free this mon back at the start of the tier but realistically it's a good thing because now we have enough evidence to bar this mf from being legal in any current gen DOU tier as long as it learns coaching and body press. o7

.

This guy is a pretty fun hyper offensive mon in concept so I'm not upset that we've had this legal for so long but I think with the way the powerlevel has shaken out with the last few bans it might be almost time for this guy to go. This one's pretty simple: it just hits really really hard and with shadow sneak doing so much and hitting the entire tier with unresisted stab coverage (except zoroark-hisui) it's really difficult to outposition. The majority of my losses from laddering ladder tour were from various shadow sneak speedties between Marshadows where I didn't have any other options available to me. It's far from the worst offender on this list here, I def think there's bigger priorities, but we need to keep on this one: it's banned from SM and SS for a reason and realistically with the tier settling a bit in terms of powerlevel Marsh can't really be a player anymore.

.

This is a really solid mon but I don't realllllyyyy understand the hate it's gotten throughout the the tier. Follow Me is admittedly pretty stupid on 100/100/100 bulk but I think it's typing in this metagame is a bit outshadowed by a more broken mon and as a result suffers from having to deal with a lot of attackers that match up well into it typing wise. I'd honestly rather have wellspring on most teams at the moment for how valuable its typing is, but I have to concede that realistically if we get rid of a few things this mon is probably also dumb, I just don't quite see it on the same level of the other mons I'm discussing here. Should be looked at in the future, but at least for me it's very very far from the first priority and I think it's reasonably dealt with currently.

and now for the actual culprit I think needs immediate action:

.

What if you took the best mega in SM, gave it dynamic speed support, a variety of new partners that punish intimidate, and a 120 base power stab move (boosted by it's ability)? Yea. That's Mega Metagross. This behemoth almost entirely outclasses every other mega to the point I'd almost never run any of the others even on teams where they seem like they'd fit. The damage this mon does with heavy slam is really bad for this tier in terms of power level and centralization and I think we'd really see a lot of benefits if we just took it off the table. I don't think any of the other mons here are even close to how stupid this mon is, it trades favorably literally every time, threatens the strongest special attacker with bullet punch, forces torn to run a ridiculous amount of defense investment just to not get ohko'd by a neutral move, ohko's rilla with a pao switch-in, and 2hko's incin after intimidate. There's very little consistent counterplay to this mon as heavy slam will torch even resists for huge amounts when they try to switch in. We quickbanned terapagos for less. Please ban.

TLDR:
This tier is currently at a crossroads between the way it's been treated up until now and creating an actually playable format. Personally, I think we need to just get rid of the broken stuff once and for all and finish what we started with banning shifu. It's fun to play with broken stuff for a little bit but we're approaching the one-year anniversary of the tier and I don't think it's sustainable to keep Natdex Doubles as the safe space for DOU's historically banned mons.
IMO the next steps should probably be:
Ban metagross --> ban zama --> see what marsh/jirachi are like after

There's not much to add upon what Eragon already said about Gross and Zamazenta. As seen from the last round of NDWC, Gross won all matches except one with Kang. Gross makes team building somewhat limiting since it can even 2HKO mons that should beat it (ex. Zard can't switch in when Gross is on the field). It's a shame, really, because there is a wide range of Megas that could be used if it wasn't for Gross. Zamazenta, like Gross, has a perfect moveset. Assisted with Tera, Covert Cloak, and good stats, it got all it needs to be more than good in this meta.

Marshadow isn't a mon that I find to be controversial but healthy for the meta. I find setup spams or rather setup "race" to be unhealthy for any doubles meta. This view contrasts to players who love to setup spam and say that setting up should be rewarding, not punishing. I also believe that banning marshadow without proper suspect will give way for Kang and Jirachi to spiral out of control. If both Zamazenta and Marshadow is to be banned, there is no natural counter that is super effective against Kang besides maybe Pao and Kartana if it sees more usage. (That's probably one reason why Kang was banned in SM.)

Recently, I have been experimenting with Jirachi. From what I can tell, teams that has decent answers against Gross (so basically a good team) will naturally have at least two mons that can dent Jirachi; we have more than enough Fire types as well as mons with Ghost-Dark and Ground type moves. Of course, Jirachi can tera out of its weakness. At the same time, it is completely useless when it is Taunted. I also find Jirachi to be healthy for the meta because it gives an opportunity to counter an otherwise Tailwind dominated meta. I always find a metagame that has a wide range of team compositions to be a good thing.

Overall, I would not like to see Marshadow or Jirachi to be banned although I can see ban of Gross and Zamazenta to be incoming.

 

[sir jelloton]

I would like to share 2 replays with you all that reinforce my desire to ban Gross.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nationaldexdoubles-760696
In this game Bagel uses a set containing hammer arm and stomping tantrum as coverage moves on his gross set. this hits all of the pokemon some people claim gross has trouble breaking such as incineroar kingambit volcanion etc and while usually losing speed would be reason enough not to use this move, gross is so ridiculously bulky that it can easily take boosted hits, so the set is viable and gets a lot of value here

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...-2100020915-31sriv8v0itu1cn9r3zbbkimmofmq3qpw
This entire team is absolute villany shoutout to whoever built it and to mcbruh for popularizing this structure(SO FUN.) but lets hone in on this gross set. its a bulky iron defense set with body press. even though its non stab it's stats and ability still make the body press damage incredibily high, and its also unable to be poisoned(a weakness of the usual wincons on these structures) or tricked which made it hard for me to beat it here. its last move was heavy slam on this team, but say this was last move stored power to 1v1 zama? or last move bullet punch to still be able to beat fluttermane? or a cosmic power set to be a catch all into everything? this mon really could get away with it all.

If you wanted to take it a step further, metagross standard is a completely viable pokemon and has seen success in past metas. if you're usual metagross counterplay loses to a tera fairy from regular metagross for example then what? other users have stated the effectiveness of the typical usage of gross, heavy slam, pfangs/bpunch, stomping tantrum and protect, but there are a myriad of other viable sets that requiredifferent methods to defeat them that i assure you will rise to prominence if gross stays in this tier

Ladderers, Maybe the metagross you've been seeing/ playing with on ladder haven't been an issue for you because they have to play correctly to get use out of the monstorous heavy slam and most do not, but are you gonna wanna deal with it when they realize they can start using this mon to set up spam? do you really wanna deal with this in your ladder games AND leave those actively participating in tours in pain? do the right thing.

Ban Gross.

 

[Voltix]

Metagross-Mega

Wanted by some, loved and hated by many, finally this thing is gone; it will be missed... or not, whatever.

We can safely say that Metagross dominance has been absolute, there has been present in the majority of teams and games; and there were very few reasons to play another mega over it. All these factors led us to a metagame centered around MGross where we just tried to build around his main partners and counters (this is also true for zama I guess).

So...what now? I think we should expect two big things about this new meta

1. New Megas

No more Gross means more space for other megas, which results in an increase in the variety of teams played. Now, I might be wrong and this will become a Kangaskhan/Salamence in the 90% of teams, but I really think there are rooms for other megas to be viable, even others not shown here like Scizor or Swampert. These lasts, added to ZardY and M-Ttar could mean that we can see more weather teams, which could be cool.

This point its actually interesting as it is related to my next point.

2. Zamazenta

For many people, including myself, the doggo was more broken in some ways than MGross (although I undestand the desire of the council of removing MGross first, that was probably the best path).

In my opinion the Metagross meta was really beneficial for Zama, being able to set up on a lot of physical threats while also being able to boost those threats with howl. That duality offensive/defensive on the same mon being able to do two different things while being excelsive at both is, in my opinion, a bit too much to handle.
So here´s the thing, that was the old meta, I wanted to reset myself and had an open mind about this mon in a different meta. Will this meta had the tools to deal better with Zama? I feel positive about it.

The most likely rise of Megas like Salamence, Charizard Y and Gardevoir can be a huge blow for Zama since they had a very decent matchup against it, threatening with KOing it, or at least being able to force his tera Steel, something that can be good for someone´s game plan.

Also, the possible rise of other Pokemon that were missing because of his bad performance against Metagross, like Tapu Fini (for example), can be annoying for the dog.

However, while I can contemplate the possibility that Zama will not be that strong now, something that we all should do before rushing into another suspect, I personally feel like it´s gonna still be very very good, probably over the edge, thanks to his ability to adapt to the meta due to his wide movepool and the possibility to find other interesting sets and keep him being absurdly good.

I guess we will find out these nexts weeks.

Other Pokemon that benefict from the Mgross ban

Tapu Fini

I´m sorry but this Pokemon could not really held itself against the raw power of Mgross which made some of his sets like CM really useless. But now, I feel like it can be very very good against the next top tier Pokemon of the future meta.

It can check effectively things like Zygarde, Marshadow, Mega Mence, Volcanion and Chien Pao, while being able to deal with Zamazenta with maybe some defensive sets with Haze or NMadness. Overall I can see both CM and Scarf/Specs being useful.

Kyurem-Black Hail

I know, Kyub still has to deal with Zama. But, to be honest, Metagross was unbearable for it. After losing one of his main checks could be back. We could work with some situations like this
+1 252 Atk Teravolt Kyurem-Black Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. +1 252 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 225-270 (57.9 - 69.5%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Also when Gross gained Psyfangs, Veil was deleted from the scene (even if the last sets chose Bullet over Psyfangs), but now it has a chance to work again. Zama behind Veil looks terryfing tho...

I am very curious about Kyub, we will see if it returns to be the threat it was months ago.

Deoxys-Attack

This one could be huge or don´t matter at all. It wasn´t nice for Psyspam and Deoxys to had a Pokemon in the 90% of opposite teams that just had an auto-winning matchup against it with MGross and a secondary check like Rillaboom or Incineroar. While it was good on ladder (for obvious reasons) people were really afraid of loading a Deo Psyspam team in a tour game against an unbeatable Mgross matchup.

I think while before it was really easy to prepare this matchup, now it can get a bit trickier, and can make teambuilding a bit harder, we will see how our next point, Jirachi, will work here...

Next best Steel Type

Jirachi. An excellent Pokemon who had the problem that it share the same typing as MGross, it was very difficult to fit into a Mgross team without overlapping a lot of weakness. But now it looks like the favourite to become the best Steel Type and also the best support Pokemon of the tier. We will see if it doesn´t create a lot of broken cores with some dangerous set up mons like Zygarde or Kyub.

About Kingambit, I personally think it enjoyed the Mgross meta since it was one of his main answers. It will maybe disappear a bit with Zama and Marshadow being around, but now it could go back to its old Tera Fairy set and out some fight with it.

Flutter Mane

Personally I dont think this Pokemon gets better or worse with the Gross ban, but at least is not gonna be permamently threaten by Bullet Punch OHKOing or doing around 95%. I put it here because I am curious how is going to behave in the new meta since looks like it´s checking a lot of the new megas.

Mew

Probably will keep being not as good as in previous gens, but could be possible for it to be a bit better now? It didnt enjoy getting 2hko'ed by Heavy Slam and losing hard to Marshadow, while losing Coaching, but who knows... Maybe it can be a new counter of Zamazenta while spreading status, tailwinds and hazards everywhere, this is kinda of my personal bet.

----------------

Future looking bright with the path the tier has taken, we should probably take actions on some other stuff to make the tier really enjoyable but this was a nice first step, really looking forward to see how things develope.

These were my thought about the new meta, I could probably be wrong about a lot of things (if not all of them xd) but that part of making theories. Thanks for reading!

 

[Smudge]

The fourth metagame/tiering survey is open, please fill it out! It covers topics such as Zamazenta, Marshadow, and more!

Survey Link

This time, the survey is available in both English and Chinese, and is now hosted on the forums instead of google forms to make it more accessible to more players. Thank you to the ND Chinese Translation team for their help with this!

The survey will close in about a week on May 6th at 11:59 PM GMT -4.

Also, we recently celebrated the first anniversary of the tier on April 21st. Thank you to everyone who's participated thus far and let's make this another great year.

 

[Smudge]

Zamazenta has had a complex relationship with the National Dex Doubles metagame. Initially, we wanted National Dex Doubles to be relatively permissive, allowing anything that had been legal in DOU or National Dex. This distribution was more than a little lopsided -- the majority of new Pokemon were from DOU, but Zamazenta was an option we allowed due to its presence in National Dex. Zamazenta was not viewed as particularly powerful at the time, primarily finding use as a bulky support Pokemon. This perception was so dominant that many claimed that it had little to no use outside of Coaching. With the Coaching ban, which was largely caused by both Zamazenta and Zeraora, we saw an initial drop in the usage of Zamazenta.

However, this dog didn't sit for long, with clever players finding new ways to utilize its monstrous statline and the Urshifu-Rapid-Strike ban giving it a significant amount of breathing room in the tier. In the most recent iteration of the National Dex World Cup, we saw Iron Defense Body Press Zamazenta take the metagame by storm, topping the usage charts in the later rounds, showing that Zamazenta had incredible potential even beyond initially thought. This set made it incredibly difficult to break past Zamazenta, with its HP being healed back up by Leftovers or Grassy Terrain. The use of Iron Defense allows it to safely place EVs in HP or even Special Defense, making it incredibly difficult to remove, and its speed tier is high enough to outpace much of the metagame.

This recent innovation was not unnoticed by the National Dex Doubles userbase. In the latest survey, half of users marked it as 10/10 or a 9/10 when asked how problematic Zamazenta was to the overall metagame. The changes in how Zamazenta has been used has demonstrated that it is conclusively the issue, and not any specific moves that it may run. While Zamazenta was initially seen as underwhelming without Coaching, tournament games and have shown that it is clearly a top tier threat -- and survey results point to it being corrosive to the metagame.

Therefore, based on a combination public feedback, internal discussion and our own observations the council has decided that it is best to quickban Zamazenta from National Dex Doubles.

	big pichu	Smudge	eragon11145	Nido-Rus	Jello	Glimmer
Zamazenta	Ban	Ban	Ban	---	Ban	Ban

 

[Astro Nation Shoe]

I have seen alot of people complain about Deo-a but more specifically PsySpam so i will give my opinion here. I am going to try and keep this as short as possible. First up this is not CRITZING any tiering action made at all that could be relevant to what i am about to say!

Before the Zama ban, I felt as if the meta was at its peak when Coaching was prominent. The same teams appeared repeatedly, although with a bit more variety, but it was not enjoyable, at least on my end. With the Zama ban, a new threat emerged: Deoxys-A . Deoxys has been a top-level threat for a long time now and was even banned in regular DOU due to its "uncompetitiveness." Personally, I feel it has become the same now. One of the main things that stopped Deo-A before was the move Wide Guard, which was commonly seen on Zamazenta. This meant that Deo-A couldn't use Expanding Force and was forced to use Psycho Boost (pretty much mandatory) or a different attacking move. With Zama being pretty much the only relevant Wide Guard user outside of Pelipper, now there are still counters to Deo-A, mainly Rillaboom. As it's able to cancel out Psychic Terrain and make Deo-A weaker, Rillaboom (with AV) can tank 2 Psycho Boosts. However, this is where two specific Pokémon come into play: Indeedee and Tapu Lele . These two offer a constant cycle of Psychic Terrain, meaning that you could never break the Psychic Terrain, and with Deo-A commonly running the item Focus Sash , it makes it even harder to take down, not to mention its absurd SPA and ATK. I think PsySpam would be fine if it didn't have Deo-A, considering its absurd SPA + Spe and access to insanely strong moves + longevity in the Focus Sash makes it even harder to take down. Having a Pokémon like Mega Gardevoir as the main Expanding Force user (its the second strongest) is a lot more manageable with its lower speed. The only main way to counter double psyterrain that I have found is to use dual terrain, as it's able to cancel out the already existing Psychic Terrain (taking into consideration you are slower), or hazards + Prankster Tailwind (which you would need to position correctly).

I personally think this would be very benifical for the meta and would like for some tiering action to be taken or atleast looked into this. Remeber this is just my opinion.

 

[Test Bots]

The Best Match / Teams / Player of NDWC IV !!!

Thank you everyone for participating in the final poll of National Dex World Cup IV! For those aren't aware of our polls, for every round, the ND DOU community voted the week's best match and best pokemon team. This particular poll also asked who was the MVP of this tournament. Without further ado~


The Best Match of the Tournament:

(click the image for the match)

The match between zee and xqiht is the number one game of the tournament. I can't really say the match won due to popular vote, but probably more so since it was controversial. The majority of the ND DOU community already knew that Zamazenta was broken, and it was only a matter time that Zamazenta would bend the metagame to its wills.


The Best Teams of the Tournament:

We had a two way tie!

Glimmer's Team in Action
One of the teams is Glimmer 's Deo-S Pao Physical Offense. The team was used by Idyll to secure a win for Team Asia + Oceania. Deo-S is used as a hazard setter, and the team's priority attackers uses the hazards to gurantee quick KOs.

bagel's Team in Action
The other team to win the best team of the tournament is bagel 's Zygarde Setup. bagel used fallen out, but still useful support pokemon such as amoonguss and gothitelle to cripple the opponent.


The ND DOU MVP of the Tournament:

MVP

Ladies and gentlemen, the player who has a 7-1 record for this tournament (including the tiebreaker game) ...
Your MVP ... is none other than Voltix ! Congratulations!

 

[Smudge]

The VR has been updated! The entire council has voted, along with an expanded VR council of bagel, Iceberg77 and Voltix. Thanks to them for joining us!

Rises:
Deoxys-Attack: 3->2
Volcanion: 3->2
Mega Tyranitar: 4->3
Stakataka: 4->3
Tapu Lele: 4->3
Tapu Koko: 5->4
Celesteela: 5->4
Hoopa-Unbound: UR->5
Kingdra: UR->5
Mega Camerupt: UR->5
Scream Tail: UR->5

Drops:
Amoonguss: 3->4
Whimsicott: 3->4
Cresselia: 4->5
Ursaluna: 4->5
Zeraora: 4->5
Glastrier: 5->UR
Mega Manectric: 5->UR
Naganadel: 5->UR

Full Slate

 

[XurkitreeTheGreat]

mega salemence balance

Untitled 9 (pokepast.es)

(Xurk is used instead of eleki b/c of trick room and tail glow)

 

[zee]

context

I'm in huge favor of a Zygarde retest as the next point forward for the tier. Between the bans of Urshifu-R and Zamazenta, two Pokemon that had positive matchups into Zygarde, and the ban of Coaching, which allowed more Pokemon to contend with Zygarde via boosting, the metagame has vastly reduced in the amount of available checks to Zygarde (I stand by all these bans being correct btw, but just to say, this is why I'm calling for this now despite voting DNB during the first suspect). Between Coil and Dragon Dance, as well as a multitude of viable Tera types, Zygarde has way more room to pick and choose its counterplay than I think is healthy. I've seen the mon pop Tera Fire to block wisp and sponge strong Ice hits, Tera Normal for ignoring Spectral Thief and increasing ESpeed damage, etc.. This isn't a hard mon to get going either thanks to the numerous support options present within the tier (Jirachi, Rilla + Kang, Ogerpon, Gothitelle, just to name a few). The mon has been dominating games in derby so far, with several games just being guy with Zyg beats guy with no Zyg or the better supported one steamrolling.

Shadow Tag I could take or leave. Honestly I think Shadow Tag is kind of weak in the tier in a lot of spots, since the power level is so high that a lot of times you'd just be better off having two threats on the board, but Hypnosis does let Goth gamble on passive boards and there's certainly arguments for uncompetitiveness there.

I do not want to ban Marshadow. I enjoy its presence in the tier a fair amount. Its stat distribution is good but not incredible, sitting at 125 speed which is crept by Deoxys and 130s/135s. Close Combat has a good bit of resistances and Spectral Thief deals really pitiful damage at -1, and while offensively its type combination is very potent, it is also lacking defensively, making it imo pretty easy to either outspeed and KO, tank a hit and KO back, or force a trade at worst a lot of the time. Spectral Thief itself is also great for keeping all the boosting cheese options in this tier somewhat at bay. Not a broken checks broken argument but a great benefit to a mon that I don't agree is broken.

The same can be said for Jirachi, which I think is a net positive for the tier. You get effectively two flex slots after Follow Me and Iron Head, but the thing is nothing you can do there is particularly dangerous. Trick Room, Non priority Thunder Wave in a Fini tier, Life Dew, Stealth Rock, U-turn, Helping Hand, or just Protect, all great but not gamebreaking options. The argument basically boils down to Jirachi being an enabler for far too many strong set up strategies at once and it being much simpler to remove said enabler than ban setup sweepers one after the other. And I get it, the typing and bulk make Jirachi a very good option, easily the best for redirection in the tier, but I just can't see it as something so solid that Amoonguss, Ogerpon, Indeedee are fine and Jirachi is banworthy. It has very minimal offensive presence, since a base 100 speed mon without investment isn't really getting all too many chances to go for Iron Head cheese. I think it's just not a hard mon to deal with. Throw threats in its face and force it to tera and cut a resource off from the setup partner. And entirely honestly, I can't think of a gamebreaking partner that isn't Zygarde.

I do think I'd lean ban on Deoxys but like Shadow Tag I don't feel too strongly about it. ND DOU has Fini in the mix as an alternate Terrain which means a lot of teams should have some sort of terrain counterplay, Jirachi takes on Deoxys's attacks pretty well, Kangaskhan drops it with Shadow Claw while living Superpower and Tera Psychic Expanding Force, but in the same vain it is just a stupid good offensive presence that threatens more burst damage than anything else in the tier, and I think banning it simplifies building a lot.

I think Stak's just a good mon emerging as the culmination of the current meta progression, but we prob need more weeks of high level tournament gameplay before definitive opinions can be formed.

 

[ratpacker]

I am against a Zygarde retest and I would like to see a Clear Amulet suspect test where Clear Amulet is NOT legal if any action is to be taken.

To just discuss Zygarde, it gained three tools between generation 8 and NDDOU : Jirachi, Clear Amulet and Terastallization, which helped it become a top threat in the current meta. Jirachi prevents double targeting and Trick strategies from working and forces team composition based upon spread moves to threaten Zygarde or knocking out Jirachi in one hit through Z moves, and Tera helps it beat Fairy moves and Will-o-Wisp. Clear Amulet in general limits setup counterplay as it takes away some of the best tools used previously to beat setup Pokemon, namely Intimidate, Parting Shot and Snarl.
Now what can we do to remedy this situation ? Either ban Zygarde, which would be depriving the tier of an interesting Pokemon I believe, ban Jirachi the top redirector of the tier, ban Tera, but I think banning a generation mechanic takes too much away from the spirit of the game, or ban Clear Amulet.
I lean towards the last solution as it would give players better options to fight random setup Pokemon, to fight Zygarde and also to limit the snowball potential of Stakataka. Clear Amulet is by a tremendous margin the best item on it, and it uses Tera to its full potential to beat its checks, which are either Fake out users through Tera Ghost, or Will-o-Wisp Incineroar + Amoonguss by using Tera Fire Heat Crash

 

[sir jelloton]

I believe jirachi should be the main focus in regards to which mon we should be looking at for tiering action. It is absolutely way too much value out of one mon. It's the best redirector, but it can also be the best rocker, best enabler(healing) best tr denial(imprison), best tr setter, and the list is actually still going. It continues to find more ways to get value for it's team while still being better at doing those things than every other mon and I believe it ultimately makes the tier more uninteresting

 

[R8]

Speaking here as the National Dex leader in charge of NDOTs

To just discuss Zygarde, it gained three tools between generation 8 and NDDOU : Jirachi, Clear Amulet and Terastallization, which helped it become a top threat in the current meta. Jirachi prevents double targeting and Trick strategies from working and forces team composition based upon spread moves to threaten Zygarde or knocking out Jirachi in one hit through Z moves, and Tera helps it beat Fairy moves and Will-o-Wisp. Clear Amulet in general limits setup counterplay as it takes away some of the best tools used previously to beat setup Pokemon, namely Intimidate, Parting Shot and Snarl.
Now what can we do to remedy this situation ? Either ban Zygarde, which would be depriving the tier of an interesting Pokemon I believe, ban Jirachi the top redirector of the tier, ban Tera, but I think banning a generation mechanic takes too much away from the spirit of the game, or ban Clear Amulet.
I lean towards the last solution as it would give players better options to fight random setup Pokemon, to fight Zygarde and also to limit the snowball potential of Stakataka. Clear Amulet is by a tremendous margin the best item on it, and it uses Tera to its full potential to beat its checks, which are either Fake out users through Tera Ghost, or Will-o-Wisp Incineroar + Amoonguss by using Tera Fire Heat Crash

As it stands I do not believe a Clear Amulet ban is justified. It is different from Commander and Dark Void since those would be problematic on anything that would be able to viably use them, while Coaching is a move that had multiple users and multiple problematic receivers. You may compare Coaching to Light Clay in singles formats where screens proved to be a problem and enabled a strategy with multiple broken abusers and often more than one viable setter.

From my understanding, Clear Amulet only breaks like 3 mons at most which is not enough grounds to ban something. In addition to this I’d argue the justification to ban an item needs to be even more concrete/solid than to ban a move, because good items naturally tend to be good on a multiple good Pokemon and by extension might be part of what breaks some of them. Unless it is proven that Clear Amulet is inherently a problem on most things that viably abuse it, a Clear Amulet ban is off the table.

There is one other thing i need to address:
You might be wondering why I am getting involved in the first place, and what justifies me jumping on the thread without knocking any doors to talk about tiering policy. While i am fine with NDOT tiering to be more permissive with regard to non-Pokemon elements, i believe it makes sense to prioritise targeting Pokemon rather than the rest unless you can prove the non-Pokemon element in question is the problem. Part of the motive behind this is to reduce the number of different ways you have to tackle a tiering problem, as discussing tiering can already be very divisive by nature as is and having to consider multiple options on top of it every time an issue arise can ultimately slow down the tiering process or just completely make it dysfunctional as no one agree on what to do - this is also one of the reasons why complex bans are usually not entertained.

Either ban Zygarde, which would be depriving the tier of an interesting Pokemon I believe [...]

I assume this is probably not your entire reasoning, but i should still make clear this is not sufficient to justify a ban on Clear Amulet. A Pokemon being interesting or not is a subjective quality that doesn't have much place in tiering.

---
If there is any need of clarification or further discussion on this topic, feel free to ping me/pm me on discord (.r.8.). I do not intend to be inflexible on this topic, and if one believe this decision is ultimately harmful to nd dou/bad tiering/whatever else they can feel free to make a case for it and i will respond, however as things currently stand i believe this is the best course of actions for me to take.
If the requirements for a non-Pokemon element to be banned are unclear, i can look into the creation of a tiering framework thread for NDOTs at some point.

 

[Smudge]

It's survey time!

Survey Link

Responses will close on Sunday, July 14, 2024 12:00 AM -7 so be sure to fill it out ASAP!

 

[Smudge]

Per the (yet to be released) survey results, Zygarde is up for suspect testing. Read more about it in the NP Thread!

 

[eragon]

As somewhat of a continuation of the SV video I made a few days ago where I explored what a S-C tier would look like for that format, today I will be attempting to theorycraft a similar system for Natdex. As I discussed a few days ago both on forums and discord, I personally feel that the tier 1-5 system that DOU formats use is unoptimal as it lacks enough nuance to properly convey the various levels of "viability". Additionally, pretty much every other community on smogon (including both OU and VGC) uses an S-C tiering system, which I think slightly hurts the accessibility of said DOU formats. In addition, following the conclusion of pretty much every natdex game in derby (besides finals) it seemed like a great time to talk about the VR again!

lowkey died by the end of this but the first hour should be solid

My Personal VR, S-C tier style

S Tier


S Tier

Rillaboom
Zygarde


S- Tier

Flutter Mane
Jirachi

A Tier

A+ Tier
Mega Kangaskhan
Mega Salamence
Marshadow
Incineroar

A Tier

Chien-Pao
Stakataka
Tornadus
Tapu Fini
Raging Bolt


A- Tier
Mega Charizard Y
Volcanion
Mega Gardevoir
Glimmora
Chi-Yu

B Tier

B+ Tier

Porygon2
Mega Tyranitar
Kingambit
Gothitelle
Kyurem-Black

B Tier

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
Dracovish
Indeedee-Female
Tapu Lele
Heatran
Blastoise
Ogerpon Wellspring
Mega Camerupt
Ogerpon
Mew
Deoxys-Attack
Eevee


B- Tier
Zeraora
Kartana
Iron Hands
Celesteela
Mega Latias
Basculegion
Gouging Fire
Mega Scizor
Gholdengo
Alolan Ninetales
Volcarona
Kommo-o


C Tier

C+ Tier

Amoonguss
Zapdos
Entei
Diancie
Pelipper
Archaludon
Mega Venusaur
Mega Diancie
Landorus-Incarnate
Whimsicott


C Tier

Tapu Koko
Ogerpon-Cornerstone
Ogerpon-Hearthflame
Landorus-Therian
Farigiraf

C- Tier

Everything in Tier 5 rn that we didn't list, they're all usable but not great and probably not worth imo

 

[Sami]

As somewhat of a continuation of the SV video I made a few days ago where I explored what a S-C tier would look like for that format, today I will be attempting to theorycraft a similar system for Natdex. As I discussed a few days ago both on forums and discord, I personally feel that the tier 1-5 system that DOU formats use is unoptimal as it lacks enough nuance to properly convey the various levels of "viability". Additionally, pretty much every other community on smogon (including both OU and VGC) uses an S-C tiering system, which I think slightly hurts the accessibility of said DOU formats. In addition, following the conclusion of pretty much every natdex game in derby (besides finals) it seemed like a great time to talk about the VR again!

lowkey died by the end of this but the first hour should be solid

My Personal VR, S-C tier style

S Tier


S Tier

Rillaboom
Zygarde


S- Tier

Flutter Mane
Jirachi

A Tier

A+ Tier
Mega Kangaskhan
Mega Salamence
Marshadow
Incineroar

A Tier

Chien-Pao
Stakataka
Tornadus
Tapu Fini
Raging Bolt


A- Tier
Mega Charizard Y
Volcanion
Mega Gardevoir
Glimmora
Chi-Yu

B Tier

B+ Tier

Porygon2
Mega Tyranitar
Kingambit
Gothitelle
Kyurem-Black

B Tier

Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
Dracovish
Indeedee-Female
Tapu Lele
Heatran
Blastoise
Ogerpon Wellspring
Mega Camerupt
Ogerpon
Mew
Deoxys-Attack
Eevee


B- Tier
Zeraora
Kartana
Iron Hands
Celesteela
Mega Latias
Basculegion
Gouging Fire
Mega Scizor
Gholdengo
Alolan Ninetales
Volcarona
Kommo-o


C Tier

C+ Tier

Amoonguss
Zapdos
Entei
Diancie
Pelipper
Archaludon
Mega Venusaur
Mega Diancie
Landorus-Incarnate
Whimsicott


C Tier

Tapu Koko
Ogerpon-Cornerstone
Ogerpon-Hearthflame
Landorus-Therian
Farigiraf

C- Tier

Everything in Tier 5 rn that we didn't list, they're all usable but not great and probably not worth imo

Ngl I'd argue Kingambit and Mega Gardevoir should swap places

 

[Smudge]

​

Following further usage of Baton Pass Eevee and the council’s general opinions on the archetype, the council opted to conduct a vote on Eevium Z.
After some discussion, the council has voted 4-0 (with 2 abstains) to quickban Eevium Z. The decision to vote on Eevium Z rather than Eevee was based on the precedent of Eevium Z being banned in SM Doubles OU (rather than Eevee itself).

While it has never been quite at the pinnacle of usage, Baton Pass Eevee has existed in National Dex Doubles and been on the radar since the very beginning. Eevee commonly pairs with Mega Latias, as its access to Stored Power, Recover and Aura Sphere makes it the ideal recipient of a +2 omniboost. Eevee was also commonly paired with redirectors such as Follow Me Jirachi and Smeargle to guarantee usage of the Z Move. Most teams also have a secondary recipient for Baton Pass, often to help with the tougher matchups for the primary recipient.

While it is certainly possible to win against the Eeeveepass archetype, the uncompetitiveness of the archetype comes from its ability to greatly punish teams that do not account for it in the builder. Options like Haze, Whirlwind and Roar do exist in the metagame but are not particularly splashable, especially with the recent removal of Zygarde (whose existence made running these options more viable).

In the most recent NDDOU survey, support for tiering action on Eevium Z was very split. A majority of respondents showed little support for action, but a smaller but significant number of respondents placed Eevium Z on the highest end of the broken scale. While these results may not seem particularly strong in justifying a quickban, the Eevee archetype has continued to rack up wins in the two months since the survey (most recently in NDPL). The archetype’s heavy matchup variance exerts an unnecessary strain on team building in NDDOU that has potential to continue to negatively impact all levels of play. The council feels that Eevium Z’s low general score on the survey has more to do with its relatively uncommon usage than with a perceived lack of competitiveness.

	big pichu	Smudge	eragon11145	Nido-Rus	Jello	Glimmer
Eevium Z	Abstain	Ban	Ban	Abstain	Ban	Ban

 

[2017 Mahindra eSupro]

Akaru Kokuyo das asco

 

[Penter]

vr noms yay

->t1
This mon was great even with zygarde around and post-zygarde meta has only been more favorable to it. its great into sun, steel resist, checks a lot of common setup mon, while also an effective one itself. Has lots of sets it can potentially run and (similarly to flutter) can be evd for what ur team needs. imo bolt is as splashable as rilla and flutter and deserves t1.

-> t4?5?
idk what this is doin in t2 still. its reliant on cts bs half the time and there are better psyspam abusers. yes ive seen the calcs. it just sucks when ddouble terrain is so common and just doesnt feel worth the risk most of the time.

->1.5
not confident enough its t1 yet but it def feels like the scariest setup mon. with tera+redirection its so difficult to remove (unless crit lol). its biggest issue imo is how slow it is to setup. can 1v6 frail teams sometimes still.

->t3
mon feels outclassed at this point. its still a flutter switch tho and it has stats ig. just doesnt seem quite t2 to me.
also theres this +1 252+ SpA Omastar Meteor Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Volcanion: 432-510 (119 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[Glimmer]

Heya yall! It has definitely been a while since I did a post relating to vr and i have a lot of thoughts about the metagame so let's go in depth!

RISES ​

TIER 2 -> TIER 1
One of the best pokemon in the entire metagame due to sheer versatility and synergy with the top tiers. Water/Fairy is a great typing in and on itself, making it resistant to a whole bunch of attacks such as Marshadow's Close Combat, Volcanion's Steam Eruption, and Chien-Pao's Icicle Crash. On top of all of this, Tapu Fini has really really good stats, with some of the best bulk in the game, good Special Attack, and having the same speed as Rillaboom and Indeedee-F. Due to all of these qualities, Tapu Fini can run a variety of sets. There is no singular best way to run Tapu Fini, but there are 4 specific sets which I think work very well. Calm Mind Tapu Fini is one of the most used and most successful sets in the format, and probably also the best Tera abuser. The main way to deal with Tapu Fini has been strong super-effective attacks, whether it be Kartana's Leaf Blade, Rillaboom's Wood Hammer, or Raging Bolt's Thunderbolt. Tera completely throws that out of the window, giving Tapu Fini a new set of resistances. 99% of the time, Tapu Fini chooses a Tera type which is resistant to Grass, as to beat Rillaboom in a 1v1. My personal favorite Tera is Dragon, also gaining a resistance to Electric while not even being weak to Dragon due to Misty Terrain. It also helps into Ogerpon-Hearthflame due to resisting Ivy Cudgel. But Tera Steel and Tera Poison are also completely valid. With any one of these Teras, Calm Mind Tapu Fini can change the tides of the battle by beating its check and allowing teammates to thrive. Calm Mind has all of these qualities and if Calm Mind was the only Tapu Fini set, it would still be Tier 2. What makes it Tier 1 however is the fact that Tapu Fini has even more going for it. Choice Scarf can pick up kills on unsuspecting Chien-Pao, Mega Salamence, and Marshadow, Choice Specs is a great tool for SemiRoom teams as it deals a great bit of damage and provides utility in using Trick onto Rillaboom or Kartana to give them a Choice Specs, and also support sets which aren't seen as often but I think fit very nicely into some setup heavy teams. Tapu Fini is great alone, and its synergies makes it stand out even more. Jirachi is the best partner Calm Mind Tapu Fini could ask for as it beats the major threats to Tapu Fini's livelyhood. Iron Hands + Tapu Fini also proved to be a devastating combo, being spammed by eragon in NDPL. This combo has a lot of variety of sets and works flawlessly either way, having very little which can punish both pokemon at once. Choice Specs pairs very nicely with Stakataka and Mega Salamence, dishing out a lot of damage and beating the pesky Chien-Pao and Marshadow while Stakataka beats opposing Tapu Fini and Mega Salamence beats Rillaboom and the Ogerpon formes. Overall, Tapu Fini fits perfectly into the meta and is a true force of nature.

TIER 2 -> TIER 1
This is my golden child, I love Mega Salamence so much. Mega Salamence offers damage like no other while being really bulky, checking a lot of annoying things, providing speed control, and even being able to setup and win the game. MMence Double-Edge is one of the most terrifying attacks in the format, with a select few pokemon being able to tank it at face value. Neutral targets crumble or get into Hyper Voice range, while resists who arent too bulky take heavy damage and are able to be picked off by MMence's teammates. MMence just provides a lot between the Mixed Tailwind set and Dragon Dance. If you do not have a Stakataka or Mega Tyranitar, nothing can really take a +1 Return or Double-Edge from Mega Salamence. Couple this fact with Roost to keep itself topped up and that it can have Jirachi as a teammate, and Dragon Dance Mega Salamence becomes a very potent setup sweeper which is hard to stop and even if you do stop it it will leave serious dents on your team. This is moreso a personal pick than an objective pick unlike the Tapu Fini nomination, but I simply find Mega Salamence to be very very slappable and it always gets value whether it be through mashing its broken Aerilate boosted attacks or simply setting up Tailwind and forcing Rillaboom off the field.

TIER 3 -> TIER 2
Iron Hands is another versatile pokemon who synergizes well with the top tiers (specifically Tapu Fini). However most Iron Hands' lean more on the sheer bulk of the guy to win trades from strong neutral foes with the use of Assault Vest and Fake Out. With sheer bulk it can beat some of the strongest special attackers in the tier, even being able to live a Landorus-I Earth Power. Iron Hands can use its last moveslot to beat a lot of the things who are supposed to beat it. Ice Punch lets it OHKO Landorus-I and deal heavy damage to Landorus-T and Mega Salamence, Heavy Slam lets it take a cheeky kill onto Flutter Mane, and Volt Switch lets it beat Gothitelle and plays into the Fake Out + Pivotting core with Rillaboom, Incineroar, or Landorus-T, who are common pairings with Iron Hands. While Assault Vest is the best set of Hands, Swords Dance can be really potent. Mostly featured with Tapu Fini (usually choiced) to give Iron Hands the Misty Seed +1 Special Defense, Swords Dance Iron Hands can run away with games if not treated with respect. It is very hard to KO and if it gets going it is also hard to wall. Iron Hands also has a unique typing in Electric/Fighting which lets it have a really nice matchup into top meta threats such as Stakataka, Raging Bolt, Kingambit, and Chien-Pao. All these qualities makes Iron Hands carve out a very good place for itself in the meta.

TIER 3 -> TIER 2
This pokemon is simply too potent to ignore and let stay at Tier 3. Stakataka is the most self sufficient Trick Room user and abuser, while being near unwallable and very bulky. Gyro Ball is a nuke button into most of the mid-bulk neutrals, killing or doing severe damage. Rock Slide or Stone Edge can hit those pesky Fire-types which won't get knocked out by Gyro Ball, Stone Edge being very good for picking up the kill into Volcanion and Rock Slide giving a spread damage option for Stakataka to spam after it gets an attack boost. It also has good coverage for its checks, Heat Crash can deal severe damage to Jirachi and Amoonguss, High Horsepower hitting Raging Bolt and Iron Hands super effectively, and Body Press on Defense boosting sets being able to nuke Grassy Seed Kingambit, who would normally be walling Attack boosting Stakataka. But this is all standard stuff for Stakataka, it has always been able to do these things, so what makes it so good in ND you may ask. It is simple really, Clear Amulet and Tera. Clear Amulet lets it completely dodge the Intimidate cycling of Incineroar and Landorus-T and lets it keep the Attack boosts it accumulated. Tera lets it get out of the shitty defensive typing of Rock/Steel, making it very hard to kill post Tera. Tera Ghost also gives it a Fake Out immunity while Tera Fire gives it STAB on Heat Crash and an immunity to burns. All of these combined makes Stakataka one of the most fearsome breakers in the tier, being able to fit in a general majority of playstyles and being valuable on every team it is in.

TIER 3 -> TIER 2
Sun has proven to be one of the best archetypes in the format. With this recent success, I think the centerpiece of Sun teams should also rise to Tier 2. Mega Charizard Y, aside from setting up sun for the broken Protosynthesis mons, is also a good pokemon on its own right. Fire-type attacks from Zard consistently pack a punch, whether it be Heat Wave, Overheat, or Weather Ball. Zard also gets good utility and coverage moves to round out its kit. Being so good and also being the anchor of an archetype which some players consider the best I think makes Mega Charizard Y deserve Tier 2.

TIER 4 -> TIER 3
Grounds are so valuable right now as we have a shortage of them. Landorus-T provides in every aspect I want from a Ground-type and an Intimidate user. It has great utility in Stealth Rock and Taunt, good power with Stomping Tantrum from 145 Attack, pivoting with U-turn, and having good set variety. As the icing on the cake it is one of the only non-megas that can quite handily beat Marshadow. These qualities make me find myself using Landorus-T in quite a bit of teams and finding good success. Choice Scarf is my favorite set, getting the jump on Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane, and Mega Charizard Y, which makes the PhysSpam and Sun matchups so much more manageable for the team with Lando. Assault Vest is another favorite of mine, it just makes Lando so resilient into Raging Bolt which is really valuable. I have also seen lead Lando-T with Stealth Rock a bunch, using Lando's utility options which I also like. I think Landorus-T is a really valuable team piece in a miriad of team styles such as Sun, Sand, and SemiRoom.

TIER 4 -> TIER 3
On a similar note to Landorus-T, Ursaluna-BM also takes advantage of the lack of Ground-types in the meta, which boosts its viability as it is currently one of the best Ground-types in the tier. However, Bloodmoon is moreso used for its sheer offensive presence. Earth Power + Hyper Voice + Blood Moon is a deadly combo paired with Mind's Eye, leaving only niche pokemon like Celesteela resisting both STAB options. Pair this up with Life Orb or Normalium Z and you have a potent breaker. This offensive approach has proven to be good with Bloodmoon. However the main reason I want Bloodmoon to be promoted to Tier 3 is the newer innovation of Assault Vest sets. The Assault Vest propoganda is real, Bloodmoon deals good damage even without damage amp items and can still Tera to normal, and AV checks every special attacker out there and is also very good into Stakataka as Attack boosting variants dont have much way to break through it.

TIER 4 -> TIER 3
Trust me I am as surprised as you are for saying this but Entei truly feels incredible next to Chien-Pao. The main things setting Entei apart from other physical attackers are Inner Focus, Extreme Speed, Sacred Fire, and sheer set variety. I really like Howl currently, it acts like a Gouging Fire which can actually hit hard and has an Intimidate immunity. Aside from the Howl set, there is also Choice Band and Assault Vest, which are really good and are essential in PrioSpam. I really like this pokemon and rate it highly as its usecase in offense is very applicable.

TIER 5 -> TIER 4
Ursaluna is much more about pure damage and doesnt offer that much utility compared to his younger brother or Lando-T, but its viability still cannot be ignored. Ursaluna is a very strong breaker who shares the same STAB combo as Bloodmoon, but differently from Bloodmoon, Ursaluna is slower and therefore more effective in more Trick Room oriented teams. And even though Ursaluna is purely about damage, the sheer consistency and amount of damage it outputs makes it worthy of Tier 4.

TIER 5 -> TIER 4
I much prefer Iron Crown over Deoxys-A personally, the versatility Booster Energy gives and the actually existant defensive presence of Iron Crown makes it stand out. I think Iron Crown pairs very nicely with both Tapu Lele and Mega Gardevoir, as it is able to get rid of faster foes such as Marshadow and Chien-Pao before they get the chance to deal heavy damage to either of them. Iron Crown is also much more consistent than Deoxys-A as it doesn't rely on Psychic Terrain as much, having Tachyon Cutter as a decently strong STAB option.

DROPS ​

TIER 2 -> TIER 4
Deoxys-A is very potent as a PsySpam pokemon, yes, but it is also the least consistent one of them all. Deoxys-A heavily relies on Psychic Terrain to be up to have a consistent STAB option and be immune to priority moves which would otherwise destroy it. On top of this inconsistency, Deoxys-A also provides no defensive capabilities or utility of any kind that other Expanding Force users provide, making it largely a matchup fish into teams without Rillaboom or Choice Scarf Tapu Fini. It is a good matchup fish, but it is still a matchup fish.

TIER 1 -> TIER 2
Flutter Mane is consistently good, however outside of Sun teams I do not find it good enough to be Tier 1. Sun Flutter Mane is very strong and hard to defend against due to Protosynthesis: Speed and Choice Specs, but aside from that I find that Flutter Mane is not that oppressive or hard to deal with. Especially with Stakataka making a grand entrance into the meta and a lot of specially bulky pokemon existing, Flutter is not the best option. It is still a good option and probably the main reason Sun is one of the best archetypes, however.

TIER 3 -> TIER 4
Never been the biggest fan of Gholdengo honestly, I do not think it holds up at all against the other Tier 3s and higher tiers. It has a nice niche in that it is the best Nasty Plot user and is pretty hard for Balance teams to defend against and Choice Specs deals good damage, but the versatility and sheer strength are not there for me. That is why I think we should bump it down a tier.

TIER 3 -> TIER 4
I am quite possibly the biggest hater of Ogerpon-W in this format, but nowadays I find it to be quite okay. It is still the second best of the Ogerpon formes, but I think the gap between Hearthflame and the rest is quite big. Ogerpon-W just does not have that many great synergies or things it beats in this format, so it has to opt to specific sets. From testing for finals, I have found that Encore Wellspring is the only one which feels really good. The set variety isn't there for me, but Encore Wellspring being a stopgap to Iron Hands + Tapu Fini felt quite nice.

TIER 5 -> UR
I do not think these pokemon are good enough to rank. Mega Venusaur is very bad in that it needs too many moves to get things done. It needs Leech Seed to beat Calm Mind Tapu Fini, Giga Drain against Mega Tyranitar and Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, Sludge Bomb for Mega Gardevoir, Rillaboom, and Ogerpon formes, Earth Power for Jirachi, Kartana, and Stakataka, Protect to actually get value off of Leech Seed, and Synthesis to heal off hits adequately. Kommo-O suffers from "loses to Tapu Fini and Flutter Mane hard" syndrome and does not really have winning matchups in general, I think Dragonite is completely outclassed in PrioSpam by Entei and overlaps too much defensively with Mega Salamence and Rillaboom. Naganadel feels awkward as hell to use and never has enough power but is the best pokemon on this list, it could probably stay Tier 5.

NEW ​

TIER 4
After Nails talked about how Dracovish was parallel to Dracozolt in viability in SS, I went ahead and put some thought into it. While some more relevant Ground-types such as Ursaluna-BM and Landorus-T are really prevelant, they arent relevant enough to kill of Dracozolt. Plus, Dracozolt's Bolt Beak is super effective into Tapu Fini and Volcanion, which makes it deadly into some teams which could fend off Dracovish very easily. Copy pasting the SS set with the simple addition of Tera Electric made it very deadly and a powerful breaker.

TIER 4
Volcarona is already featured in a sample team and has proven to be really good. Volcarona has two sets which both need to be respected. The Tailwind Rage Powder set is very good role compression and helps Volcarona's team immensely while not sacrificing the attacking slot as Volcarona is inherently strong. The second set which I find really good is Quiver Dance with Tera Fairy Tera Blast. Fire + Fairy is walled by very little (only by Volcanion and Heatran to be exact) which makes Volcarona very annoying to face off against. After it gets +2 it can very easily take over games and needs to be respected.

TIER 5
Being featured in the same sand sample from Schister as Volcarona, Cosmic Power Metagross is devastating for some playstyles to deal with. It is very good into bulkier structures which cannot take Metagross down in a timely manner, letting it set up until it becomes unkillable. Tera Normal also makes it so that its Cosmic Power and Meteor Mash boosts cannot be stolen by Marshadow, making it very frustrating to deal with.

TIER 5
Incredible role compression with Fake Out + Follow Me. Pure Water-type redirector also pairs nicely with a lot of pokemon such as Kyurem-Black and the aforementioned Volcarona. It also has good bulk and can use Toxic to slowly chip down opponents like Rillaboom and Volcanion. Good pokemon and I have found myself considering and using it a few times, deserves a spot on the VR.

 

[lilpup800]

I've just gotten one of my accounts to top 5 and another to top 50 rotating between different teams. Open to trying more teams just wanted to give my thoughts on the meta and some issues I have with the banlist.

TIER 2 -> TIER 1
Probably the best mon in the format if I had to pick. Calm Mind Lefities is likely the best set, it's very hard to take out with it's 70/115/130 bulk, has a super solid typing, sets up terrain that prevents its allies from being slowed down by status while slowing down more oppressive terrains. Water/Fairy is easily a top 10 type combo, with 3 weaknesses, 6 resists, 1 immunity, and hitting 6 mono types super effective. Moonblast gives its middling 95 special attack a solid damage output unboosted and capable of taking OHKOs at +2 or +3. It takes awhile to set up, but it forces the opponent to find a way to take it out which is not an easy feat with it's bulk, a lot of the time you'll only set it up to consistently THKO most opponents while having a strong attacker next to it to pick and choose what attacks you'll deal with. The Calm Mind variant gets a ton of value out of a solid defensive tera which can give it free turns to set up or force mindgames. This goes without mentioning the whole range of sets Tapu Fini can use as an endgame sweeper with specs, support with scarf, or a z-crystal if immediate damage is a high priority. It's ability is great natural support for itself and for strong physical attacking allies who can sweep by preventing toxic, burn, or paralysis while providing the necessary spore coverage. Its problem of immediate damage output is largely fixed with a z-crystal or 1 turn of fake out and its muddy water accuracy is a choice given there's scald or the fact moonblast does solid damage even resisted. Being a natural psyspam counter helps a ton as well.

TIER 3 -> TIER 2
My first thought when starting this format was recognizing how protosynthesis mons now have a legitimate sun setter. Charizard-y is not tier 2 by itself, it's not in the best speed tier and it's relatively frail. It nukes almost everything with heat wave, flamethrower, and overheat as well as now has the option of scorching sands for coverage and to discourage switch-ins. Solar beam is also still an option, but I found scorching sands to be more useful for discouraging Heatran and other fire types than Solar Beam which can be disrupted and usually isn't necessary to beat Water types as you will/should always be running Raging Bolt next to it. Where Charizard-Y shines is in its partners, Flutter Mane traditionally struggles in that it's forced to stick to just one lane, outspeeding everything or dealing enough damage while still having decent enough bulk to survive hits. Proper sun support fixes this issue by giving Flutter Mane an item slot and a protosynthesis boost, sash is a bit overrated, but specs and fairium z are great picks. Raging Bolt gets to hold an assault vest or a magnet with the protosynthesis boost alongside tera can allow it OHKO a lot of uninvested neutral targets with priority thunderclaps while still having incredible bulk. These mons benefit immensely from sun but do not lose much momentum if sun is turned off. There's a couple other strong picks for sun like Ogerpon-H and Heatran who don't have a ton of overlap in weaknesses with Zard while still nuking opposing teams and providing strong support/bulk respectively. Chi-Yu is great if you're going the hyper offensive route, but I personally dislike its accuracy issues and how it perpetuates the frailty Zard-Y already has. There are some more niche and sun-reliant mons like Walking Wake and Roaring Moon but they aren't great unless they cover a specific team weakness. I think it’s very easy for newer players to get really attached to mons who benefit from the sun, but ultimately hold their teams back. Sun, when built right, is a top-tier archetype and being able to utilize a wide variety of type coverage and incredible stat spreads make it the most flexible weather.

TIER 4 -> TIER 2
The viability rankings sleep on this mon way too much, it's always been a powerful mon in every doubles format it's been featured in. Possessing a great typing, bulk, special attack, and a solid ability further strengthened with tera. What makes Heatran different in national dex is being able to run Eruption without the need to run a Quiet nature. This makes it very powerful on speed control teams, tailroom or specialized in either trick room or tailwind. Fast Eruption is used by Typhlosion(-H) as a powerful endgame sweeper that acts as a win-condition against weakened teams. Typhlosion has numerous issues, primarily in its flexibility and inability to function outside of this strategy, somewhat middling special attack for the format, poor bulk, etc. In sharp contrast, Heatran's speed tier lets it outspeed almost every unboosted threat in tailwind and underspeed in trick room(TR) while having the strongest Eruption of all non-mega pokemon, this is of course, not in absence of it's other incredibly useful qualities. Even without speed control, Eruption lets Heatran easily wallbreak teams reliant on TR. AV sets still do what Heatran does best, walling out mons without fighting or ground moves, a pivot to sun-boosted nukes, while checking/walling fairies, grasses, and steels with strong coverage.

TIER 2 -> TIER 1.5
Imo this is the best unbanned mega for teams. It's incredibly versatile and a solid pick into almost every matchup, it has the bulk, power, speed, and support to be good at whatever the team needs in that moment. In National Dex, scrappy has now been buffed to make it immune to intimidate for the first turn it mega evolves which is a very notable buff that makes it harder to play around. In NatDex, it also gets power-up-punch, which allows for the potent sweeps every mega is looking for. It's not the strongest sweeper, albeit is able to take out most mons with a +2 return/double edge, and can't take out bulkier mons super easily. Having a strong priority move helps keep it threatening and at least guarantees it will do meaningful damage before it goes down, but it's not the most overwhelming mega. It only has a weakness to CC which is very easy to deal with with the plethora of great fairies and intimidate users coupled with enough bulk to never be OHKO'd by any unboosted attack. What separates Kangaskhan from other megas is its ability to support teams by having the strongest viable Fake Out, which does meaningful chip damage, but also plays a crucial role in creating pins and setting up your biggest threats, while maintaining a threatening board state at all times. In National Dex there is no shortage of very powerful setup sweepers, the best imo is Tapu Fini who synergizes incredibly with Kangaskhan. Other setup sweepers include Kingambit, Raging Bolt, Ogerpon-H, Gholdengo, Flutter Mane, Kommo-o, etc. It's also just a strong way to set up speed control. Fake out pressure also becomes more powerful in conjunction with z-moves which can deal chip damage through protect or create lopsided situations where you can take an easy OHKO. The first sample team does the best job of showcasing how good Kangaskhan is, synergizing with the revolving door of fake out, eruption pins, intimidate pivoting, strong speed control that isn't offensively passive, and multiple setup sweepers. The only real issue is that this takes a mega slot and without skilled pivoting/setup it hits like a wet noodle at -1.

TIER 3 -> TIER 2
Great support mon just like Kangaskhan, with an AV it has the best stats in the game of any unrestricted mon while providing a ton of support and solid damage output. It takes virtually all unboosted super effective attacks and some boosted super effective attacks. Challenging to remove and with pivoting fake outs and a base 140 attack lets a team keep constant momentum throughout a game. In addition, it's a solid way to stall out trick room and hamper the momentum of opposing setup sweepers, being able to take almost any attack and temporarily nullify anything with Fake Out the next turn. I wouldn't pair this thing with Tapu Koko, but it's a great way to discourage others from using electric terrain-centric teams. I'd consider this for tier 1, but I'm not super confident.

TIER 2 -> TIER 1
With all the Z-Crystals, Mega Stones, and Annihilape ban there's not much to block intimidate. Incin still has all of its pivoting capabilities and doesn't have to deal with Urshifu. It has solid matchups with most of the top tiers barring Ttar, Ogerpon-W, and Iron Hands which it still slows down all of. It has to contend with Fini, Glimmora(if you can't burn its power herb), and Gambit if it has coverage, but given it provides a substantial way to slow down the two of the three best megas and resists Zard-Ys fire attacks it's rarely not useful.

TIER 4 -> TIER 3
TIER 4 -> TIER 3
These are both great and likely deserve to move up, Landorus-I fulfills the position of the immediately threatening wallbreaker who has a ton of utility on rain teams with sandsear storm that I really should be seeing more of. Sheer force earth power + sludge bomb is really difficult to deal with and gambling with no rain sandsear storm is viable, scarf or life orb work well for it. Landorus-T is probably best with a scarf or z-crystal, I'm not a huge believer in hazards, scarf intimidate pivoting to siphon opposing momentum is timeless and makes it a good revenge sweeper given it's faster than anything unboosted, tera blast flying is absurdly strong for its speed and remains one of the best offensive typings. Also run stomping tantrum, the days of EQ as your only ground stab are over.

I agree with Glimmer's point on Psyspam, Deoxys-A isn't a tier 2 mon(maybe 3 or 4) and Iron Crown is likely a good tier 4 mon. There's too many good terrain setters, too many great steels, darks, and special tanks that 1/3 to 1/2 of good teams will naturally end up countering the strategy without teambuilding for psyspam specifically. It's still a good endgame strategy as just an Indeedee + Psyspammer if you and isolate and remove it's counters, but their diversity makes it somewhat difficult to do reliably.

TIER 4 -> TIER 3
One exception I see to the psyspam problem is Gardevoir-Mega, as it is versatile enough to not rely on terrain with strong pixilate hyper voices. Dark types inherently become less effective ways to check psyspam if you get very strong spread fairy moves. Gardevoir already appreciated using it's middling speed tier for TR, which lent itself well to Amoonguss as it's support, in tandem with psychic terrain not only does it give Gardevoir powerful expanding forces, but removes electric and misty terrains to keep Amoonguss spore viable.

Drops:

TIER 2 -> TIER 3
Already mentioned, it doesn't work well without psychic terrain which presents a ton of issues for it when there's more than enough counters.

TIER 2 -> TIER 3
Volcanion isn't *bad,* but it's not spectacular. It ends up in an awkward middle ground where it really is looking to fulfill a very specific role on a team. It can function on both rain and sun teams, but doesn't do either the best. It can counter both of those teams at once, but the former isn't necessarily the strongest weather(by no means the worst either) and isn't the best sun counter with Raging Bolt being a staple while not dealing a ton of damage to either, mainly just resisting them. If you want an excellent bulky fire type attacker, a switch-in for fire moves or a fairy check, just use Heatran. If you want a bulky fire type pivot, use Incineroar. If you really need to switch-in on rain teams, there's AV Rillaboom and it will fire back with strong grassy glides and wood hammers. If that switch-in needs to be immune to water, there's Ogerpon-W which will also fire back with Wood Hammer and Leech Horn while providing follow me support. If you want a bulky special water type, Tapu Fini does that the best. It's really only there if you're committed to a specific terrain on your team, aren't using a rain team, and desperately need a strong water type.

TIER 3 -> TIER 4
This is the most "what's he doing up there? he might get hurt" on the list(otherwise really well made). Archaludon in most VGC formats is a big noob trap, it has super high stats, a great typing, great signature move, and two great abilities. The one exception to this is in regulation H, where the power level is a lot lower. In NatDex doubles the power level is basically as high as it could possibly be without there being restricteds running around. A lot of special attackers will naturally take out even AV sets due to how high their special attack is and even a good number of physical attacks are enough to THKO Archuludon before it gets running. Z-moves further add to the problem of being a dedicated wall. Archaludon being above Pelipper somewhat implies it's either the sole reason to run a rain team or that it's versatile enough it can be run without rain(it can't in this meta).

TIER 1 -> TIER 2
Nitpick, but this mon is not worthy of tier 1 imo. As mentioned before, fake out is super powerful in this format especially given access to u-turn and a ton of bulk. Changing terrain is also very powerful. It's just Rillaboom doesn't have the best matchup spread against the top tiers, it does fine enough against Flutter, Hands, Marshadow, OgerponW, and Deoxys and does well against Fini, Ttar, Tapu Lele, and rain! Sounds great until we look at it's bad matchups, Chien Pao, Heatran, Incin, Gambit, Salamence-M, Raging Bolt, Tornadus, Jirachi, Chi-Yu, Gholdengo, Kartana, Kyurem, Zard, OgerponH... It can choose to run high horsepower for a couple of those to have contestable matchups, but that weakens its strength as a pivot. In reg H Rillaboom was on paper the best mon in the format, but that didn't pan out largely because a lot of types beat it. It's great at support and checks water and ground types hard while dealing a ton of damage to neutral targets while maintaining pivot and terrain control, but it has a hard time being that top 2-3 mon when it can only really function as support in a lot of matchups. Don't get me wrong, amazing mon.

Other thoughts:
Not going to make a confident statement on these, as I would need to test them out more but,


Not the absolute best mega, top 3 probably, but I have trouble finding/making a team to make this truly oppressive. 122 power returns and 144 power double edges on one of the best offensive types is great coupled with great bulk and speed. Mixed sets tend to not take neutral ohkos and don’t have the best bulk. Setup oriented sets somewhat require support mons that are somewhat passive as having Incin AND Iron Hands makes for some stop gaps. Jirachi is a great follow me user that synergizes well with Mence, but lacks damage. Rillaboom is nice, but makes it harder to run Fini or vice versa. Seems a bit hurt by the Zygarde ban bc Ground + Flying coverage is great. Compromises need to be made somewhere which is fine, but not ideal. It's role is also somewhat competed for with Kyurem-B, you'd probably not run both even though they have different attacking types and they both are just really strong DD setup sweepers, except Kyurem trades some flexibility and solid typing for a free mega slot. Not saying it's worse than Kyurem-B by any means, but Mence's desire for a deep set of support is not an issue helped when there's a viable budget version that lets you keep your mega.


Not sure if this guy is worth the mega slot for most teams, sand is a good disruptive weather, but lacks great abusers. Excadrill is an honorable mention, but it's powercrept, which mostly leaves Dracovish who will deal less damage without Strong Jaw. Vish is still pretty good, but I'm not confident its good enough to justify a whole archetype. Knock off is a big buff for TTar-Mega and DD makes it a solid sweeper, it's just a poor typing on a mega that makes it hard to setup without a ton of support while not being a full enough archetype. Seems solid but I definitely have questions.


Every instinct I have tells me this mon is not tier 3, but at the same time there's next to no viable poison types and this is 6v6 so the only remaining option is misty terrain which has issues if glimmora comes with psychic/grassy terrain. Probably better to play this as a wallbreaker that will setup tspikes by being hard to take out rather than a dedicated hazards setter. Looks to have a good matchup against a lot of great mons too.


This thing seems super good with tera, seen it a lot on hard TR teams but they never seem super well built.


Felt underwhelming so far, it's easily intimidated and doesn't do a ton of damage to neutral targets regardless. Fake out immunity is very important, technician shadow sneak seems like a big deal but hasn't felt that way in practice. Down bad for fighting coverage cause Shifu is gone, I do wonder if Sneasler is worth trying now given the fact.

Thoughts on the bans:

I'm coming from a more heavy VGC experience, but a lot of bans seem really unwarranted. I understand a lot of them are designed with the idea of promoting less degenerate play or preventing a centralized meta like Eeveeium, Dark Void, Swagger, and Dozo(because it requires fairly specific counters). But again, some things don't make complete sense.


I'm one of those weird Urshifu enjoyers, but I totally empathize with why they might be banned and a lot of people think they break established rules too much.


The Annihilape ban seems super unnecessary, coaching seems like it would be really strong in a meta with so many overpowered physical sweepers(albeit it definitely isn’t the best coaching user), but given that's gone and that it won't recieve the coaching boosts; how is Annihilape broken? Rage Fist is great and all, but considering the power level is already so high I don't think it'll be taking a ton of attacks to sweep teams with the move. I wouldn't even say it's degenerate let alone good. If it's the scarf final gambit sets, there's already plenty of ways to set up trick room or force trades. If there's some crazy move it got from previous generations, keep me in the loop, but I don't think there is.


Mega Metagross and Gengar seem maybe a little centralizing, but not incredibly broken. Not sure how much the former was broken by itself being too good or it being too good alongside the super strong mythical psyspam mon which probably should've gone first if we were worried about degenerate strats. Centralization is kind of the name of the game with megas, Salamence, Kangaskhan, Gardevoir, and TTar would likely still be viable with those two running around. As is, there's only 4-5 megas reasonably viable megas and the order wouldn't shift as much. It’s mainly disappointing because this is the one metagame where we’d get to use them in a doubles context and we can’t.

Overall, I had a lot of fun playing this metagame and really enjoy the wide variety of options afforded to the player.

 

[lilpup800]

Have some updated thoughts after playing more and looking at underutilized options, there might be some minor changes from my previous list.

Tier 3 -> Tier 1
Yeah I just think this thing is really good, it tanks almost every hit possible, helps you setup pins or sweepers, OHKOs a wide amount of meta threats, acts as a TR sweeper/anti-TR buffer. This thing doesn't really have any bad matchups and, when it somehow does, provides a ton of support to it's allies.

Tier 2 -> Tier 1
Idk why this thing is legal, it's easily the best follow me user, almost completely invalidates TR because it can just perma-flinch the TR users while you have a wallbreaker/sweeper next to it or just be a normal support mon with incredible bulk and strong typing. Tapu Fini, Heatran, and Salamence are broken partners for this thing/vice versa by helping them stack boosts while redirecting, crippling threats with rng, and healing the sweepers/keeping max power eruption with life dew.

Tier 2 -> Tier 1.5
This is a nitpick, but this thing is basically the strength of a tier 1, its stats are that of a restricted(seriously compare this things stats to say Lunala, it's much closer than you'd think). But Raging Bolt has the issue of being awkward to slot into most teams. Sun always appreciates this thing sure, but balance usually likes Iron Hands more, Salamence teams don't like the second dragon, stacking Fini makes its dragon moves worse. It almost instantly wins the rain matchup, dominates against sun, beats Fini if it can get the jump on it, and just in general outstats most matchups.

Tier 2
This thing is very good and its damage output is much better than I thought. It's the premier fighting type and probably the best z-move user, being immune to Fake Out, having a signature z-move with extra power/solid offensive typing, and decent enough bulk to not need the sash most of the time for neutral hits. Ghost/Fighting has broken offensive synergy in general. The stats and a strong ghost stab with close combat + strong z-move would already be enough to make it one of the best options and the go-to fighting type, but the added ghost scizor bullet punch that used to dominate in the past plus the anti-sweeper tool in spectral thief stealing boosts gives this thing too much quality of life. I don't think it deserves Tier 1 just in that it probably only takes a kill and does some chip damage after and doesn't have that sweeping/setup potential the mons above it have, and its speed tier while excellent is slightly powercrept(partially offset with technician shadow sneak), and it hates intimidate but has to give up sash, a z move, or extra power with life orb for clear amulet, but maybe it should in the future be banned? Not urgent by any means but him and jirachi would be the highest considerations imo.

Tier UR -> Tier 3
Full disclaimer, I have not used this mon, but it is legal. With Annihilape's ban, this is the best final gambit user that can be used to enable TR, crazy setup, etc. It also still gets V-Create and can enable its allies with a free Wide Lens boost while maintaining a solid movepool. There's definitely a lot of potential here and I definitely think it should be on the map for players, I'm very open to moving this thing up or down but tier made sense to me given its potential.

Tier UR -> Tier 4
This mon should definitely be on the map. It has a few limitations, it can die more easily in a high power setting, but VGC has shown that can oftentimes help its viability with the right partners. It is generally a high-skill mon in how it needs to be used in a way that prevents it from being passive and having "all my friends are dead syndrome" without comprising its stats in a way that undermines its bulk. Last, people are not performing at a high enough skill level in this format to be abusing priority moves and fake out, so it's not getting the value out of its ability that it should at the moment. No reason Tsareena should be listed but Farig is not especially given Rain isn't all that.

Notes: Tier 4 and 5 from the non-mega list is unordered, F tier unordered on the mega list