National Dex NatDex Ubers: Chien-Pao Balance - [Peaked Top 3 in Ladder, 1821 Elo]

[Bobsican]

Proof of top 3

Hello everybody! As I have been experimenting with unusual stuff for the metagame, I have consistently gotten success for the most part with the team I've experimented with for months, without further to add, let's begin.

Click here for the team!
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This team may seem unusual as half of its members aren't even tiered as Ubers, but that's because it is! Sometimes just what a team may lack resides outside what someone may be customized to.

The basic idea of using Chien-Pao even if there used to be a time where it was compared to Flutter Mane of all things in viability was thanks to no one else than adem, and from there I have experimented a lot with it. You may wonder why the Pokepaste names it as "Chien-Pao Balance 5", and that's because previously I made 4 previous variations of this team regarding the team slots that have Ditto and Blissey in the overall best version, namely combinations of Ditto (which stayed in the final version), Primal Groudon, Mega Venusaur, Garganacl, Arceus-Ground, and Arceus-Fairy.

All of these were decent to cover some flaws of the team, but were overall a bit more inconsistent, now, with the introduction done, I'd like to explain the role of each team member in the seemingly conclusive version:

Giratina-O:

Standard moveset that lets it act as a sturdy check to common metagame threats such as Primal Groudon, Arceus-Ground, and Arceus. Phazing with Dragon Tail lets it disrupt common setup sweepers such as Zygarde, and with prediction some stuff that would normally force it out such as Necrozma-DM and Mega Salamence, as well as further spreading status with Eternatus's Toxic Spikes and limit the reliability of opposing Alomomola's Wish passing. Shadow Sneak provides a safety net to safely dispatch Deoxys-A and worn down stuff such as Marshadow, Ultra Necrozma, and more rarely Zacian-C. Tera Poison grants a far more neutral defensive typing to more easily remove entry hazards on stuff that would apply offensive pressure otherwise such as Eternatus and Yveltal.

Alomomola:

Thanks to the combined research of bumboclaat and R8, Alomomola's surprisingly high physical bulk combined with its longevity with Regenerator and pivoting let it providea rather unusual role in the metagame as a defensive pivot that can also double as a cleric with Wish. While it may do little on its own, Tera Grass does let it wall Zygarde without Dragon STAB even at +6 Atk, in fact it's a surprisingly good check to it regardless as it's often easy to get statused by opposing spreaders such as Ho-Oh and defensive Arceus-Dark, Regenerator makes most chip damage from bad poisoning or burns nearly irrelevant, with the status also making it immune to Glare to remain as a status absorber and a consistent pivot for the rest of the game. Rocky Helmet may also seem a bit unusual, but it lets Alomomola minimize its passivity by punishing physical attackers almost for free as Regenerator mitigates potential chip damage taken, sometimes KOing a worn down sweeper, plus it's funny to see Triple Axel Pheromosa just lose half of its health when trying to hit Eternatus or Giratina-O.

Ditto:

The most standard Ditto set, while I don't have much to explain on the set as Tera Ghost allows it to minimize mindgames regarding Extreme Speed from Arceus and Deoxys-A, with Hidden Power Ice being a very situational thing to make use of it when copied from a Marshadow to hit common Dragon-types in the tier, I can comment on *why* it's on the team, and the answer is mainly to have an extremely consistent Zacian-C answer, namely as Alomomola nearly always can safely pivot it in while also wearing it down to put it in KO range even if Zacian-C Terastallizes, plus with the high variety the ladder gives, the scouting utility Ditto gives is appreciated. It also actively discourages setup sweepers such as Ultra Necrozma, Primal Groudon, Arceus, and Eternatus from getting greedy as I play safe by pivoting on them with either Alomomola or Blissey, and eases the stall matchup by having practically infinite PP thanks to Imposter.

Blissey:

First things first, I'm often asked on why this is on the team instead of Chansey, and why I'm using a pink blob outside of hard stall. The answer lies in Teleport + Heavy-Duty Boots being a good way to gain momentum, it's nearly impossible to break past the pink blob as is on the special side as is, in fact it often gets worn down more from entry hazards from foes such as Ferrothorn and support Arceus formes, which is why Heavy-Duty Boots shine more here. In any case, Seismic Toss lets Blissey wear down stuff in general even if it gets Taunt'd, and Toxic puts special setup sweepers such as Primal Kyogre and Terastallized Eternatus on a timer, limiting their capability to setup, and easing the way for Chien-Pao to wallbreak. Blissey and Alomomola make a rather potent pivoting core, the few Pokemon that can consistently break it (Mega Mewtwo Y, Yveltal, Deoxys-A, Rayquaza, and the random Solar Beam Primal Groudon counterteams) are handled well by the rest of the team for the most part. Tera Dark lets Blissey be immune to Psystrike and Psyshock from Mega Mewtwo Y and Lunala, proving crucial when soft-checking Psyspam teams.

Eternatus:

While this is a standard set (in fact developed by me), here it compresses as a backup check to Primal Kyogre, Ho-Oh, most Calm Mind Arceus formes, and Marshadow, and more relevantly checks Yveltal with Knock Off and base/Tera Fairy'd Zygarde. Toxic Spikes is relevant utility as against hyper offense the chances to more directly spread poisoning to support Chien-Pao to potentially sweep are limited, add to that some teams in the tier skipping the act of running hazard control in a team and the offensive pressure it gives to opposing Eternatus (the only viable Poison-type in the tier (excluding Tera'd stuff)) as Dragon is weak to itself, and you have a formidable partner that rounds up the defensive infrastructure of the team. Tera Fairy lets it ocassionally better check Primal Kyogre and Yveltal.

Chien-Pao:

Finally, here we have the star of the team, thanks to Sword of Ruin, Chien-Pao hits about as hard as Marshadow, except it's way faster and doesn't have to worry about accuracy issues, letting it act as a rather scary wallbreaker/stallbreaker:

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 228-270 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 214-254 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 282-332 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 266-314 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 181-214 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Spinner vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Similarly to Marshadow, no singular type combination resists both of its STAB options, which is relevant as this means that Terastallizing isn't going to save anything long term from the cat. As its allies don't often desire particularly to Terastallize, but more notably no type is immune to Dark or Ice, letting it make progress regardless of the attack chosen, and the secondary effect of Crunch has shown to be useful to overwhelm checks such as Arceus-Fairy and Dondozo.

Chien-Pao can often rely on having Tera Dark up its deck to remove its weakness to Stealth Rock and perform nuclear levels of damage without requiring setup, allowing it to abuse the pivoting Alomomola or Blissey provide to blow holes on the opposing team. Even as is, its typing also lets it actually come into Psychic-types with some prediction, something Marshadow can't do either, and resists Sucker Punch from Yveltal and itself, as well as Shadow Sneak from Marshadow and Giratina-O. Chien-Pao is also a good way to lure a wasted Terastallizing from the other team in hopes of removing it, so sometimes I make mind-games in terms of having Chien-Pao in a favorable position, then switch to an ally that should wall what the opponent may plan to use, expecting them to Terastallize, this works surprisingly often, and when it doesn't work I still get momentum to either hinder the opposing Pokemon with a status condition to let Chien-Pao potentially brute force past it regardless late-game, or bring in another Pokemon depending on the context.

Checks
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No team is invulnerable, and so I'm going to list what the team can often struggle with:

Zygarde:

Variants of this Pokemon with Substitute, Coil, and Dragon STAB can be difficult for the team to handle as there's nothing to properly answer it, while Tera Fairy Eternatus can check base and Tera Fairy Zygarde, the team has no proper way to play around specially defensive Tera Water variants, Leftovers also offset the chip damage laid by a Substitute, and the best bet is to try to overwhelm it with Chien-Pao, although that only works if I manage to scout it beforehand with Ditto, which isn't something I do often in fear of Glare. On retrospective this kind of sets are probably a counterteam to some degree as the combination of traits is rather specific and non-standard.

Ferrothorn:

The team lacks a way to safely dispatch it, especially not without being hindered from stuff like Thunder Wave, Knock Off or Leech Seed, Ditto does act as a sort of soft-check by being immune to Leech Seed upon copying the foe and provides Spikes to discourage the opposing team from switching as well, and Giratina-O can literally force it out of the field with Dragon Tail at the cost of a ton of chip, but it's still rather dire. I'm aware that this could be mitigated by either fitting Fire coverage on Eternatus, or replacing Sucker Punch with Sacred Sword on Chien-Pao, but doing that comes with the opportunity cost of Eternatus no longer pressuring itself to ease preserving Toxic Spikes, or Chien-Pao being unable to OHKO Necrozma-DM after a Dragon Dance (Ditto discourages it from just using Dragon Dance further).

Garganacl:

Similar to Ferrothorn, Garganacl is annoying with Salt Cure, and as it's slower than Alomomola, it's difficult for me to safely bring in something without being potetially constantly worn down by that move, it also counters my Giratina-O, and checks Chien-Pao if it reveals Tera Fairy. While Eternatus does give a chance against it, I'm still obligated to deal with the Stealth Rock and Salt Cure laid by it, and the incoming momentum sink as it switches out to something that can potentially overwhelm the team if played right.

Smeargle:

This one may be weird to mention, but as nothing in the team is immune to Nuzzle or carries Substitute, Smeargle can consistently hinder something then lay Sticky Web to hinder Chien-Pao from sweeping past the usually frail teams that rely on it, especially teams that also carry Gholdengo to prevent Giratina-O from removing it with Defog.

Kingambit:

Kingambit resists both of Chien-Pao's STAB options and overall walls the entire team, except Ditto if it carries Fighting coverage, the lack of reliable recovery does make the matchup possible to play around, but on teams that support it with Alomomola, it can be rather difficult to make progress. Refer back to the last bit of Ferrothorn for the opportunity costs to minimize the negatives to play against it. Kingambit is a very niche option in the metagame regardless, so it shouldn't be usually a concern.

Replays

Click me!

GGs to everybody here! These showcase the team in action.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2165111008-ap6ypq0qaofank8rbrk9f8aqnwzfvaupw
Against hyper offense by R8

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2165016717-e54ahwvqeithvq6sqnf4hxfppxypu8gpw
Against balance by lemoncell0

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2164628095-d3epr29iy0gj9mm9qpnk9jff27pcsuvpw
Unknown user, but this does showcase Alomomola checking Zygarde.

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It sure was nice to see what the metagame has to offer with this rather thought-out team, thanks for reading and I appreciate any comments.

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[Sami]

Not gonna lie, this looks like a Semi-Stall team at first glance, but congrats on reaching Top 3 on ladder!

Just a small nitpick though, how does this team not struggle against Choice Band Rayquaza defensively? There's no Stealth Rock to punish it, and apart from trying to PP Stall it with a fully healthy Alomomola, nothing wants to come into Tera Flying Dragon Ascent. Same logic applies to Mega Salamence (especially if its the rare Substitute variant) or even Arceus-Flying which Ditto can't beat. For this reason I'd personally go Tera Steel Giratina-O to at least have a somewhat decent answer to these guys, while improving the Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground matchup, although this does to worse into Eruption Primal Groudon, but that can be offensively dealt with by Chien Pao since it has much lower defenses.

 

[Sami]

Additionally, wouldn't the first EV spread (the one with 228+ attack) be better for Shadow Sneak Giratina-O since the defensive spread doesn't always 2HKO MMY and Ultra Necrozma?

 

[Bobsican]

Not gonna lie, this looks like a Semi-Stall team at first glance, but congrats on reaching Top 3 on ladder!

Just a small nitpick though, how does this team not struggle against Choice Band Rayquaza defensively? There's no Stealth Rock to punish it, and apart from trying to PP Stall it with a fully healthy Alomomola, nothing wants to come into Tera Flying Dragon Ascent. Same logic applies to Mega Salamence (especially if its the rare Substitute variant) or even Arceus-Flying which Ditto can't beat. For this reason I'd personally go Tera Steel Giratina-O to at least have a somewhat decent answer to these guys, while improving the Dragon Dance Arceus-Ground matchup, although this does to worse into Eruption Primal Groudon, but that can be offensively dealt with by Chien Pao since it has much lower defenses.

Both Rayquaza and Salamence are forced out by Chien-Pao, so it becomes a case of carefully trading with the other team if Alomomola gets overwhelmed (to safely bring it into the field), so it's not that much of an issue from my experience, Ditto also acts as further backup against these wallbreakers.

Arceus-Flying typically runs CM sets, meaning that Chien-Pao can consistently outspeed and OHKO it once it enters the field, which is something trivially done by Blissey, unless Arceus-Flying carries Taunt, in which case things do get a bit more uncomfortable, in such cases I try to wear it down with either Blissey or Eternatus and try to predict a Recover to bring Chien-Pao into the field.

Additionally, wouldn't the first EV spread (the one with 228+ attack) be better for Shadow Sneak Giratina-O since the defensive spread doesn't always 2HKO MMY and Ultra Necrozma?

Well, as mentioned, the intent is more so to finish them off, and in particular ease the matchup against Deoxys-A. 228 EVs + Adamant also consumes a ton of EVs, investing into Defense lets Giratina-O act as a check to M-Salamence, which as you've said can be a concern for the team at times

Regarding Tera Steel, that does seem like a good way to improve the team, but at the same time it's difficult to scout Primal Groudon, and even with Tera Dark, Chien-Pao can't OHKO it regardless, so it's a case of trading some negatives for positives, and considering Eruption Primal Groudon is more common than Substitute Mega Salamence, I don't think this change would be particularly worthwhile for general play.

However, the above does make me notice that Tera Electric provides the best of both worlds in exchange for remaining vulnerable to poisoning and Zacian-C, which may be worth exploring, thanks for the feedback!

 

[bumboclaat]

Thanks for the shoutout, but R8 really should get most of the credit for Alomomola. I recall mentioning Tera Grass Alomomola at some point, though I don't recall if it was for this team or if it was talking about Alo in a different context or more generally. It is a great mon and I doubt I was the only person who wanted to use Alo + Giratina-O post Xerneas ban. I'm glad you've posted this RMT and would suggest posting it in the Bazaar at some point with this writeup so it can have increased visibility.

I do quite like this team, though I've only faced an older version when testing a team for NDUbers Open. I think I faced the Garganacl version, but I don't have a replay of that. I don't know how it would fare against the current version though that game was close and really could have gone either way. I'd definitely describe this team more as a semistall than a fat balance. That is a good thing as I havn't seen a semistall I've liked since Koraidon was banned.

While I don't think the team members need to change, there is a fair about of flexibility in how to go about using these six. You could definitely change some sets up and it'd change some of the matchups it has. They wouldn't necessarily make the team better, but it would allow for options.

Giratina-O:

Standard moveset that lets it act as a sturdy check to common metagame threats such as Primal Groudon, Arceus-Ground, and Arceus. Phazing with Dragon Tail lets it disrupt common setup sweepers such as Zygarde, and with prediction some stuff that would normally force it out such as Necrozma-DM and Mega Salamence, as well as further spreading status with Eternatus's Toxic Spikes and limit the reliability of opposing Alomomola's Wish passing. Shadow Sneak provides a safety net to safely dispatch Deoxys-A and worn down stuff such as Marshadow, Ultra Necrozma, and more rarely Zacian-C. Tera Poison grants a far more neutral defensive typing to more easily remove entry hazards on stuff that would apply offensive pressure otherwise such as Eternatus and Yveltal.

Giratina-O is the mon which has the most flexibility here as I think it could benefit from an alternate status move. I'm not generally a fan of Thunder Wave or Wisp on physical sets but I do think they can fit here. The special set with either of these two does more or less shut down every Zygarde set in conjunction with the rest of the team. I do think Thunder Wave on this or Blissey could be good. Even on the physical set, Wisp or Thunder Wave is nice to catch Zacian-C on the switch which can be incredibly dangerous to this team if it isn't on HO. You do have more than enough avenues to poison something otherwise. Thunder Wave would also help with wallbreaker Eternatus which this team doesn't love facing.

Thanks to the combined research of bumboclaat and R8, Alomomola's surprisingly high physical bulk combined with its longevity with Regenerator and pivoting let it providea rather unusual role in the metagame as a defensive pivot that can also double as a cleric with Wish. While it may do little on its own, Tera Grass does let it wall Zygarde without Dragon STAB even at +6 Atk, in fact it's a surprisingly good check to it regardless as it's often easy to get statused by opposing spreaders such as Ho-Oh and defensive Arceus-Dark, Regenerator makes most chip damage from bad poisoning or burns nearly irrelevant, with the status also making it immune to Glare to remain as a status absorber and a consistent pivot for the rest of the game. Rocky Helmet may also seem a bit unusual, but it lets Alomomola minimize its passivity by punishing physical attackers almost for free as Regenerator mitigates potential chip damage taken, sometimes KOing a worn down sweeper, plus it's funny to see Triple Axel Pheromosa just lose half of its health when trying to hit Eternatus or Giratina-O.

I've mentioned this on discord, but I do think boots alo works a lot better on this team. The helmet chip is nice, but I just see Alo getting worn down too easily by entry hazards and stray special attacks to make the helmet worthwhile even if it does provide some nice benefits. This team definitely needs phys def Alo because of how weak it is to Zacian-C.

Ditto:

The most standard Ditto set, while I don't have much to explain on the set as Tera Ghost allows it to minimize mindgames regarding Extreme Speed from Arceus and Deoxys-A, with Hidden Power Ice being a very situational thing to make use of it when copied from a Marshadow to hit common Dragon-types in the tier, I can comment on *why* it's on the team, and the answer is mainly to have an extremely consistent Zacian-C answer, namely as Alomomola nearly always can safely pivot it in while also wearing it down to put it in KO range even if Zacian-C Terastallizes, plus with the high variety the ladder gives, the scouting utility Ditto gives is appreciated. It also actively discourages setup sweepers such as Ultra Necrozma, Primal Groudon, Arceus, and Eternatus from getting greedy as I play safe by pivoting on them with either Alomomola or Blissey, and eases the stall matchup by having practically infinite PP thanks to Imposter.

I do wonder if Tera Normal is better to eliminate Shadow Sneak games from Marshadow in a Ditto endgame + a boost to Extremespeed in the Ekiller matchup as you can bait the tera by switching to and sacing something, probably Alomomola. Ditto's tera is flexible and should just be whatever works best for its team. It is a great mon and fits this team like a glove.

Blissey:

First things first, I'm often asked on why this is on the team instead of Chansey, and why I'm using a pink blob outside of hard stall. The answer lies in Teleport + Heavy-Duty Boots being a good way to gain momentum, it's nearly impossible to break past the pink blob as is on the special side as is, in fact it often gets worn down more from entry hazards from foes such as Ferrothorn and support Arceus formes, which is why Heavy-Duty Boots shine more here. In any case, Seismic Toss lets Blissey wear down stuff in general even if it gets Taunt'd, and Toxic puts special setup sweepers such as Primal Kyogre and Terastallized Eternatus on a timer, limiting their capability to setup, and easing the way for Chien-Pao to wallbreak. Blissey and Alomomola make a rather potent pivoting core, the few Pokemon that can consistently break it (Mega Mewtwo Y, Yveltal, Deoxys-A, Rayquaza, and the random Solar Beam Primal Groudon counterteams are handled well by the rest of the team for the most part. Tera Dark lets Blissey be immune to Psystrike and Psyshock from Mega Mewtwo Y and Lunala, proving crucial when soft-checking Psyspam teams.

I'm wondering how games against defensive Primal Kyogre have gone? It seems like a well played defensive Primal Kyogre can really cause a lot of issues because it can tank a Tera Dark Crunch and OHKO Chien-Pao with Scald if needed. I'm not sure Tera Grass is worthwhile as Tera Dark does shore up the Psyspam matchup which this team would struggle with otherwise. Even if it takes a Tera Dark Crunch a health Primal Kyogre should find the turns at some point to Rest.

Eternatus:

While this is a standard set (in fact developed by me), here it compresses as a backup check to Primal Kyogre, Ho-Oh, most Calm Mind Arceus formes, and Marshadow, and more relevantly checks Yveltal with Knock Off and base/Tera Fairy'd Zygarde. Toxic Spikes is relevant utility as against hyper offense the chances to more directly spread poisoning to support Chien-Pao to potentially sweep are limited, add to that some teams in the tier skipping the act of running hazard control in a team and the offensive pressure it gives to opposing Eternatus (the only viable Poison-type in the tier (excluding Tera'd stuff)) as Dragon is weak to itself, and you have a formidable partner that rounds up the defensive infrastructure of the team. Tera Fairy lets it ocassionally better check Primal Kyogre and Yveltal.

I don't think anything really needs to be changed here. The stuff about Tera Fairy is pretty valid and Ditto + Physdef Alomomola should cover Zacian-C well enough that Tera Water isn't needed. Fairy is nice for Taunt CM Arceus-Dark if needed as well. I do wonder if it is worthwhile adding a few points of speed to outspeed Chi-Yu? I doubt it, but food for thought.

Chien-Pao:

Finally, here we have the star of the team, thanks to Sword of Ruin, Chien-Pao hits about as hard as Marshadow, except it's way faster and doesn't have to worry about accuracy issues, letting it act as a rather scary wallbreaker/stallbreaker:

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 228-270 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 214-254 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 282-332 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 266-314 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 181-214 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Spinner vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Similarly to Marshadow, no singular type combination resists both of its STAB options, which is relevant as this means that Terastallizing isn't going to save anything long term from the cat. As its allies don't often desire particularly to Terastallize, but more notably no type is immune to Dark or Ice, letting it make progress regardless of the attack chosen, and the secondary effect of Crunch has shown to be useful to overwhelm checks such as Arceus-Fairy and Dondozo.

One thing I'd highlight that Chien-Pao has over Marshadow, which this team really appreciates, is patching up an otherwise poor wallbreaker Eternatus matchup. It is hard to switch into and you know I'm a bigger fan of Sacred Sword than Sucker Punch. That being said, Sucker Punch does fit this team a bit better. Fwiw, I don't really think that the Arceus-Fairy calc for either of them is super relevant. At least in my experience both playing and building, Bold Arceus-Fairy should often be Tera Water Wisp for Zacian-C. If it isn't it should be CM. Either way, Marshadow is definitely a bit favoured here as Tera Ghost lets it live even +1 uninvested Judgment. Neither really break it, though Marshadow does have a better matchup.

When I think about the two I tend to about their matchups into various styles as a whole and how their choice lock is punished. Personally, the main advantage Chien-Pao has is the Eternatus and stall matchup. Having to rely on Sucker Punch as much as it does against HO makes it very risky as it presents a lot of opportunities for free boosts or switches if they're respecting Ditto.

One big thing Marshadow does have over Chien-Pao, is a more generally solid matchup into Tera Fairy CM Arceus formes which this team does struggle with if they are running Taunt. One of the nice things about Marshadow is not having to play those Sucker Punch mindgames. It can bait the tera in a similar way to Chien-Pao on Ekiller and then not have to play guessing games. I do think Chien Pao fits a bit better on this team. There are definitely reasons to use Chien-Pao over Marshadow or it wouldn't be ranked B- (rising at least to B next slate). Having Ditto to help v HO helps Chien-Pao a lot.

Zygarde:

Variants of this Pokemon with Substitute, Coil, and Dragon STAB can be difficult for the team to handle as there's nothing to properly answer it, while Tera Fairy Eternatus can check base and Tera Fairy Zygarde, the team has no proper way to play around specially defensive Tera Water variants, Leftovers also offset the chip damage laid by a Substitute, and the best bet is to try to overwhelm it with Chien-Pao, although that only works if I manage to scout it beforehand with Ditto, which isn't something I do often in fear of Glare. On retrospective this kind of sets are probably a counterteam to some degree as the combination of traits is rather specific and non-standard.

I'm assuming that running Dragon STAB is definitely counterteaming unless it is 09-10a running the DD Zygarde that he alone loves. Our replay that I linked earlier is the last time I played on the ladder so I don't know what Zygarde has been running. I know myself and a few people in the Open have been running Dragon Dance Zygarde a fair bit and R8 has talked about how great Tera Water SpD is for a year now. Some stuff I'm sure is counterteaming, but not all of it. If I wanted to counterteam this I definitely wouldn't rely on Zygarde to do so. Any set is going to be decent, but there are way better ways to counterteam (Tera Poison Zygarde is also pretty good v this) than Zygarde.

Ferrothorn:

The team lacks a way to safely dispatch it, especially not without being hindered from stuff like Thunder Wave, Knock Off or Leech Seed, Ditto does act as a sort of soft-check by being immune to Leech Seed upon copying the foe and provides Spikes to discourage the opposing team from switching as well, and Giratina-O can literally force it out of the field with Dragon Tail at the cost of a ton of chip, but it's still rather dire. I'm aware that this could be mitigated by either fitting Fire coverage on Eternatus, or replacing Sucker Punch with Sacred Sword on Chien-Pao, but doing that comes with the opportunity cost of Eternatus no longer pressuring itself to ease preserving Toxic Spikes, or Chien-Pao being unable to OHKO Necrozma-DM after a Dragon Dance (Ditto discourages it from just using Dragon Dance further).

Garganacl:

Similar to Ferrothorn, Garganacl is annoying with Salt Cure, and as it's slower than Alomomola, it's difficult for me to safely bring in something without being potetially constantly worn down by that move, it also counters my Giratina-O, and checks Chien-Pao if it reveals Tera Fairy. While Eternatus does give a chance against it, I'm still obligated to deal with the Stealth Rock and Salt Cure laid by it, and the incoming momentum sink as it switches out to something that can potentially overwhelm the team if played right.

Grouping these two together because Garganacl is not commonly seen without Ferrothorn. Is speedy Dragon Dance Necrozma-DM a thing on the ladder nowadays? Its always been pretty uncommon there. I guess against Ferrothorn-Garganacl teams you can try and get Ditto to absorb a Knock Off and Tera Ghost at some point if Garg is setup?

One thing I think that is worth bringing up is that if the team has issues with Ferrothorn-Garganacl it may be worth considering how it does against other semi-stall fat balances. Ferrothorn-Garganacl is still being developed and I am near certain that those team structures will be much better optimized in a couple of months.

Is this indicative of larger issues this team may have with fatter balances? A common link between all the mons you've mentioned as ones you've had trouble with is the inability of Chien-Pao to beat them and their inability to be handled via Ditto. While I don't really factor in Chien-Pao much when building balance (that may change at some point) I do factor in to what degree Ditto can countersweep as whatever mons I'm using to handle fat.


I do really like this team and I hope what I've written doesn't deflect from that. Great job with it!

 

[lemoncell0]

A fun team that I believe I've lost to every single time I've faced it lol, congrats on hitting top three.

 

[Pigbeeef]

Proof of top 3

View attachment 650684

Hello everybody! As I have been experimenting with unusual stuff for the metagame, I have consistently gotten success for the most part with the team I've experimented with for months, without further to add, let's begin.

Click here for the team!
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This team may seem unusual as half of its members aren't even tiered as Ubers, but that's because it is! Sometimes just what a team may lack resides outside what someone may be customized to.

The basic idea of using Chien-Pao even if there used to be a time where it was compared to Flutter Mane of all things in viability was thanks to no one else than adem, and from there I have experimented a lot with it. You may wonder why the Pokepaste names it as "Chien-Pao Balance 5", and that's because previously I made 4 previous variations of this team regarding the team slots that have Ditto and Blissey in the overall best version, namely combinations of Ditto (which stayed in the final version), Primal Groudon, Mega Venusaur, Garganacl, Arceus-Ground, and Arceus-Fairy.

All of these were decent to cover some flaws of the team, but were overall a bit more inconsistent, now, with the introduction done, I'd like to explain the role of each team member in the seemingly conclusive version:

Giratina-O:

Standard moveset that lets it act as a sturdy check to common metagame threats such as Primal Groudon, Arceus-Ground, and Arceus. Phazing with Dragon Tail lets it disrupt common setup sweepers such as Zygarde, and with prediction some stuff that would normally force it out such as Necrozma-DM and Mega Salamence, as well as further spreading status with Eternatus's Toxic Spikes and limit the reliability of opposing Alomomola's Wish passing. Shadow Sneak provides a safety net to safely dispatch Deoxys-A and worn down stuff such as Marshadow, Ultra Necrozma, and more rarely Zacian-C. Tera Poison grants a far more neutral defensive typing to more easily remove entry hazards on stuff that would apply offensive pressure otherwise such as Eternatus and Yveltal.

Alomomola:

Thanks to the combined research of bumboclaat and R8, Alomomola's surprisingly high physical bulk combined with its longevity with Regenerator and pivoting let it providea rather unusual role in the metagame as a defensive pivot that can also double as a cleric with Wish. While it may do little on its own, Tera Grass does let it wall Zygarde without Dragon STAB even at +6 Atk, in fact it's a surprisingly good check to it regardless as it's often easy to get statused by opposing spreaders such as Ho-Oh and defensive Arceus-Dark, Regenerator makes most chip damage from bad poisoning or burns nearly irrelevant, with the status also making it immune to Glare to remain as a status absorber and a consistent pivot for the rest of the game. Rocky Helmet may also seem a bit unusual, but it lets Alomomola minimize its passivity by punishing physical attackers almost for free as Regenerator mitigates potential chip damage taken, sometimes KOing a worn down sweeper, plus it's funny to see Triple Axel Pheromosa just lose half of its health when trying to hit Eternatus or Giratina-O.

Ditto:

The most standard Ditto set, while I don't have much to explain on the set as Tera Ghost allows it to minimize mindgames regarding Extreme Speed from Arceus and Deoxys-A, with Hidden Power Ice being a very situational thing to make use of it when copied from a Marshadow to hit common Dragon-types in the tier, I can comment on *why* it's on the team, and the answer is mainly to have an extremely consistent Zacian-C answer, namely as Alomomola nearly always can safely pivot it in while also wearing it down to put it in KO range even if Zacian-C Terastallizes, plus with the high variety the ladder gives, the scouting utility Ditto gives is appreciated. It also actively discourages setup sweepers such as Ultra Necrozma, Primal Groudon, Arceus, and Eternatus from getting greedy as I play safe by pivoting on them with either Alomomola or Blissey, and eases the stall matchup by having practically infinite PP thanks to Imposter.

Blissey:

First things first, I'm often asked on why this is on the team instead of Chansey, and why I'm using a pink blob outside of hard stall. The answer lies in Teleport + Heavy-Duty Boots being a good way to gain momentum, it's nearly impossible to break past the pink blob as is on the special side as is, in fact it often gets worn down more from entry hazards from foes such as Ferrothorn and support Arceus formes, which is why Heavy-Duty Boots shine more here. In any case, Seismic Toss lets Blissey wear down stuff in general even if it gets Taunt'd, and Toxic puts special setup sweepers such as Primal Kyogre and Terastallized Eternatus on a timer, limiting their capability to setup, and easing the way for Chien-Pao to wallbreak. Blissey and Alomomola make a rather potent pivoting core, the few Pokemon that can consistently break it (Mega Mewtwo Y, Yveltal, Deoxys-A, Rayquaza, and the random Solar Beam Primal Groudon counterteams are handled well by the rest of the team for the most part. Tera Dark lets Blissey be immune to Psystrike and Psyshock from Mega Mewtwo Y and Lunala, proving crucial when soft-checking Psyspam teams.

Eternatus:

While this is a standard set (in fact developed by me), here it compresses as a backup check to Primal Kyogre, Ho-Oh, most Calm Mind Arceus formes, and Marshadow, and more relevantly checks Yveltal with Knock Off and base/Tera Fairy'd Zygarde. Toxic Spikes is relevant utility as against hyper offense the chances to more directly spread poisoning to support Chien-Pao to potentially sweep are limited, add to that some teams in the tier skipping the act of running hazard control in a team and the offensive pressure it gives to opposing Eternatus (the only viable Poison-type in the tier (excluding Tera'd stuff)) as Dragon is weak to itself, and you have a formidable partner that rounds up the defensive infrastructure of the team. Tera Fairy lets it ocassionally better check Primal Kyogre and Yveltal.

Chien-Pao:

Finally, here we have the star of the team, thanks to Sword of Ruin, Chien-Pao hits about as hard as Marshadow, except it's way faster and doesn't have to worry about accuracy issues, letting it act as a rather scary wallbreaker/stallbreaker:

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 228-270 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 37.9% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 214-254 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 282-332 (67.9 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 266-314 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 181-214 (40.8 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Ice Spinner vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 171-202 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Similarly to Marshadow, no singular type combination resists both of its STAB options, which is relevant as this means that Terastallizing isn't going to save anything long term from the cat. As its allies don't often desire particularly to Terastallize, but more notably no type is immune to Dark or Ice, letting it make progress regardless of the attack chosen, and the secondary effect of Crunch has shown to be useful to overwhelm checks such as Arceus-Fairy and Dondozo.

Chien-Pao can often rely on having Tera Dark up its deck to remove its weakness to Stealth Rock and perform nuclear levels of damage without requiring setup, allowing it to abuse the pivoting Alomomola or Blissey provide to blow holes on the opposing team. Even as is, its typing also lets it actually come into Psychic-types with some prediction, something Marshadow can't do either, and resists Sucker Punch from Yveltal and itself, as well as Shadow Sneak from Marshadow and Giratina-O. Chien-Pao is also a good way to lure a wasted Terastallizing from the other team in hopes of removing it, so sometimes I make mind-games in terms of having Chien-Pao in a favorable position, then switch to an ally that should wall what the opponent may plan to use, expecting them to Terastallize, this works surprisingly often, and when it doesn't work I still get momentum to either hinder the opposing Pokemon with a status condition to let Chien-Pao potentially brute force past it regardless late-game, or bring in another Pokemon depending on the context.

Checks
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No team is invulnerable, and so I'm going to list what the team can often struggle with:

Zygarde:

Variants of this Pokemon with Substitute, Coil, and Dragon STAB can be difficult for the team to handle as there's nothing to properly answer it, while Tera Fairy Eternatus can check base and Tera Fairy Zygarde, the team has no proper way to play around specially defensive Tera Water variants, Leftovers also offset the chip damage laid by a Substitute, and the best bet is to try to overwhelm it with Chien-Pao, although that only works if I manage to scout it beforehand with Ditto, which isn't something I do often in fear of Glare. On retrospective this kind of sets are probably a counterteam to some degree as the combination of traits is rather specific and non-standard.

Ferrothorn:

The team lacks a way to safely dispatch it, especially not without being hindered from stuff like Thunder Wave, Knock Off or Leech Seed, Ditto does act as a sort of soft-check by being immune to Leech Seed upon copying the foe and provides Spikes to discourage the opposing team from switching as well, and Giratina-O can literally force it out of the field with Dragon Tail at the cost of a ton of chip, but it's still rather dire. I'm aware that this could be mitigated by either fitting Fire coverage on Eternatus, or replacing Sucker Punch with Sacred Sword on Chien-Pao, but doing that comes with the opportunity cost of Eternatus no longer pressuring itself to ease preserving Toxic Spikes, or Chien-Pao being unable to OHKO Necrozma-DM after a Dragon Dance (Ditto discourages it from just using Dragon Dance further).

Garganacl:

Similar to Ferrothorn, Garganacl is annoying with Salt Cure, and as it's slower than Alomomola, it's difficult for me to safely bring in something without being potetially constantly worn down by that move, it also counters my Giratina-O, and checks Chien-Pao if it reveals Tera Fairy. While Eternatus does give a chance against it, I'm still obligated to deal with the Stealth Rock and Salt Cure laid by it, and the incoming momentum sink as it switches out to something that can potentially overwhelm the team if played right.

Smeargle:

This one may be weird to mention, but as nothing in the team is immune to Nuzzle or carries Substitute, Smeargle can consistently hinder something then lay Sticky Web to hinder Chien-Pao from sweeping past the usually frail teams that rely on it, especially teams that also carry Gholdengo to prevent Giratina-O from removing it with Defog.

Kingambit:

Kingambit resists both of Chien-Pao's STAB options and overall walls the entire team, except Ditto if it carries Fighting coverage, the lack of reliable recovery does make the matchup possible to play around, but on teams that support it with Alomomola, it can be rather difficult to make progress. Refer back to the last bit of Ferrothorn for the opportunity costs to minimize the negatives to play against it. Kingambit is a very niche option in the metagame regardless, so it shouldn't be usually a concern.

Replays

Click me!

GGs to everybody here! These showcase the team in action.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2165111008-ap6ypq0qaofank8rbrk9f8aqnwzfvaupw
Against hyper offense by R8

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2165016717-e54ahwvqeithvq6sqnf4hxfppxypu8gpw
Against balance by lemoncell0

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-2164628095-d3epr29iy0gj9mm9qpnk9jff27pcsuvpw
Unknown user, but this does showcase Alomomola checking Zygarde.

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It sure was nice to see what the metagame has to offer with this rather thought-out team, thanks for reading and I appreciate any comments.

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MINISPRITES FTW, BLISSEY AND ALO FTW< CB CHEEM PAO FTW!!!