ORAS Ubers My attempt at an Ubers/fun pvp team

[MaChew94]

So, I made an OU team a few weeks back, and loved testing it and trialing it so much I made it on my copy of ORAS (I finished the team today). However, most of my pals and random people don't know/don't care about the smogon tiers (I didn't mean to generalise "most people", i just can't rely on them to stick to the tier list, and would be severely outmatched playing my OU team against a primal Kyogre - I have counters, but that's not the point!)

So, I decided to make a "fun pvp team", one that I can use with pals and random pvp battles and keep up with the variety of poke's I'll be facing. Thing is, most of the "fun" poke'mon I wanted to include were in the Uber tier list of Smogon, and so I had to add that tag when I entered this team onto Showdown! Therefore, this team is a blend of a legit attempt at an Uber team, and also an attempt of making my dream team - one that doesn't adhere to tiers but can if needs must. Also, note that although this is primarily a fun team to use against friends, I want the most out of these poke'mon and so I would appreciate feedback on moves/Evs/Items - you know the drill.

So. The team. Initially I wanted to build it around a Mega Lucario - I fell in love with his graphics from Gen 3 and was real excited when he got his mega form (and was not disappointed!) Most of the poke'mon on the team are there to cover the weaknesses of lucario, and to let him shine.

Lucario @ Lucarionite
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch

So the attack and speed are obviously to get his sweep done as quickly and effectively as possible. I'm unsure about the moves - I want this guy to sweep due to the high number of xerneas' and other fairies patrolling ubers, so I might need a swords dance somewhere there. If I had to I'd remove the drain punch; ice punch gives me too much coverage to give up, and the STAB 240 CC and 80 priority bullet punch are too valuable. Thoughts?

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Punch
- Stone Edge

Ah, the friendly neighborhood pseudo-lead, rock setter fiery dinosaur of destruction. The SpDef EV's are there to tank a primal Kyogre, with a 3HKO ice beam, allowing him to (with his large defence stat) shrug off damage, setting the rocks, while also using the monstrous 504 attack stat to his advantage; STAB EQ and Fire punch, stone edge for Ho-oh/talonflame. It can 2Hko a kyogre too. This is to cover the first weakness of Lucario - fire. The 4 speed EV's are there to outspeed a fellow defensive Groudon, and EQ him down.

Greninja @ life orb
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
- Scald

The ridiculously speedy frog covers the second weakness of Lucario (and the first) - fire. Standard EV's to maximise the damage output. U-Turn for scouting; this turns my greninja into a scouting lead when there's a clear reason not to use Groudon, or just for a safe start to scope out moves. Dark Pulse to hit annoying Giratinas, Deoxies (dyoxys?), lugias and mewtwos, also turning it into dark and protecting itself against the psychic attacks. Forcing a switch, I can predict with a U-turn (also super effective against those types) and mess up their play. Ice beam for the dragons patrolling Uber and to check ground a bit better. Scald over hydro pump for reliability and burn chance.

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
- Me First
- U-turn

The last weakness of Lucario is fighting, and with the huge popularity of mega blaziken and aegislash in Uber, this guy checks them all with style. Outspeeding and hitting neutral damage on the likes of Rayqauza, Mewtwo and Groudon with Brave Bird is interesting, though I have to pay special care to the stone edge on the latter. The choice band U-turn can deal serious damage to psychic types and save my poke, allowing me to say switch in my Xerneas to a neutral damage psychic attack and begin the sweep. Not too much to say about this guy except he's done me well in OU and deserves a special place on my team.

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 Def / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon

Right, might as well get it over with. I feel really dirty using this combo, but since I needed a fairy sweeper, and I'll be restarting my X for the Lucario, I might as well soft reset for Xerneas too. So, Power herb (for those who don't know) allows me to set Geomancy up in one turn. I've toyed with the EVs and settled upon defence, because the first move I'll be using is Geomancy; giving me boosted Sp. Def, Sp. Att, Speed and Defence. This means it can survive a fully invested Rayqauze EQ with around 60% health remaining, tanking the extremespeed and beginning the sweep. I killed 5 poke's with this guy alone in my last showdown game; it's a disgusting combo. Standard moves; T-bolt over thunder since it's my only electric attack, and Flash cannon for bigger fairy pressure, like another xerneas after sweep (since no doubt that Xerneas will be speed invested).

Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 60 Atk / 200 Def
Impish Nature
- Defog
- Bullet Punch
- X-Scissor
- Roost

Finally, the one I'm not sure about. I wanted a defogger, and might consider Lugia instead, but I wanted a physical tank (I think Lugia can be a physical wall - 130 base defence I believe). Still, the STAB bullet punch again serves me well, and a STAB X-scissor works well where I can hit it. The main function of this poke was for Defog, so if there's a better poke then please tell me - this is the one I'm willing to drop, as it brings a bigger fire weakness to the team, making my Greninja work overtime to douse the fire.

So. The team. Many thanks for reading; hopefully the pictures helped break up the monotony. Really I'm just looking for guidance on the choices I've made for this team. t checks many prevalent threats, most of which I've included.

Since this team is mainly for actual pvp and for friends, not showdown, there will be many instances of legendaries being used; thus, they have been included in the checks and I've taken special care to include counters to said pokes.

I had a lot of fun making the team and writing the thread. Hopefully you can give me some guidance with it, and a replacement defogger; unless Scizor is fine and fits the team - I can live with that too.

TL/DR; looking for guidance on choices I've made for the team.

DISCLAIMER: Apologies for spelling mistakes I've missed; it's late and there are so many red lines due to Poke names that I can't see them all, and apologies if the pictures are too large; it's my first attempt at adding them. If they are, can anyone suggest a site where I can obtain thumbnails instead?

Thanks y'all!
- MaChew94

 

[letterman4]

Replacing Scizor, you can use an Arceus, Girantina, or one of the Lati twins to defog. Arceus can make up for a weakness in your team. Girantina helps Talonflame against Fighting types. Latios can add a powerful Draco Meteor bomb into your team, but Latias is bulkier. Since Groundon can set up StealthRock, you might want to use a Spinner instead, namely Fortress, Excadrill, Cloyster, and Tentacruel.

 

[MaChew94]

Yeah, the lati twins were something I was looking at. Well, since the defog will kill my SR, as you said, would you recommend running fortress as a lead and using spikes as well as spin? I could keep SR on Groudon I suppose, but there is less pressure to use that then? So if I ran a Sturdy Sp.Def and Def Fortress? That could work! However, with that and my Lucario, my team is 6x team to fire, is that something that's manageable since the fast paced and huge power shift of the uber metagame? I just have to watch for those Reshirams and Kyurem-Ws I suppose. I already have a hp/atk adamant mold breaker excadrill for my OU team, but it's slow, and again falls into "weak to fire" party, and it's EQ is completely outclassed by Groundon's.

Since then the only steel STABS on my team is the flash cannon Xerneas and bullet punch Lucario, would you recommend running a different steel move on Lucario? And add swords dance? The team is built around keeping the pressure off Xerneas and Lucario, so Lucario needs to be able to set and sweep too; can you recommend a Lucario build?

Thanks for the comments; this was really the only poke I was unsure about, and the possible changes to the Lucario set.

 

[Dilwar]

Since this isn't a serious team dedicated to actually use in the Ubers tier, I will not suggest changing of mons and/or identify threats to your team. However, like you asked, there are optimizations that could be done to your sets.

Lucario: yes, you should take out Drain Punch. Recovery is nice and all but on a frail mon like Lucario it does not mean much, he is better off simply KOing things with high power moves, and often you will be KOd by the next check your opp sends out regardless of where your health is at. Your can replace this with Iron Tail, an unreliable but strong secondary STAB, or simply go the Swords Dance route. EVs and nature are fine.

Primal Groudon: the set is fine but the EV spread can be better. Running at least 12EVs in Speed is good to outspeed Diancie before it megas, which is clutch on non-Protect Diancie. You don't really need 252SpDef EVs, but rather 176SpDef, which still allows you to check Xerneas and Kyogre reliably. You can dump the rest into Speed or HP for mixed bulk.

Greninja: seems like a standard OU set with the exception of U-Turn. I personally prefer Hydro over Scald because Greninja needs all the power it can get for crucial KOs, because chances are if it's not KOing, it's being KOd back due to terrible bulk. U-Turn is never bad but you can replace that to cover any threats if you feel like.
In my opinion, the Greninja set that covers most targets is Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Low Kick, Gunk Shot with 40Atk, 216SpA, 252Spe, Naive. Low Kick still covers things like Heatran, T-Tar and a few others that water move would hit. The benefit though is that it beats Empoleon and hits more targets. Gunk Shot is for Fairies like Azumarill, Sylveon, Clefable, which can be OHKOd with 40Atk EVs and a Life Orb. It is needed to beat things that previously checked Greninja. Ice Beam is always good and Dark Pulse rounds it off, Dark STAB is really hard to resist.

Talonflame: I don't think you will ever use Me First. The set is good otherwise but Me First is never useful. Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Sleep Talk or Tailwind are better options. It may seem odd to be locked into such moves, but the point is to catch off its usual checks off-guard, such as burning a Tyranitar or Toxic-ing a Hippowdon. Sleep Talk is good to absorb status and Tailwind is good when you're dying the next turn anyway, so slower mons with higher power can put in work.

Xerneas: Flash Cannon is terrible. Moonblast hits other Fairies harder. Here are the numbers:

Flash Cannon: 80BP x 2(super effective) = 160

Moonblast: 95BP x 1.5(STAB) x 1.33(Fairy Aura) = 189.

Thunder is also better over Thunderbolt, the accuracy is eh but Thunderbolt is too weak to muscle past the likes of Lugia, Ho-oh and bulkier P-Ogre. You need at least 44 Spe, to outspeed Scarf Genesect at +2, and then you can run 28Def to give Genesect the SpA boost instead of Atk boost so its Iron Head or Espeed does less damage. The rest can be put into HP for overall mixed bulk.

Scizor: Bug Bite after Technician hits harder than X-Scissor, with the added benefit of removing berries. There is no reason to use X-Scissor.

 

[MaChew94]

Wow man, thanks for in depth analysis. As I said I'm really new to the Uber tier and are unsure of the numbers/threats, more so than I would be with OU.

Lucario - I'm considering using Swords dance tbh to give it a chance to set up. I like the idea of iron-tail, and I can always use my STAB bullet punch if i miss and it gets sticky. How about an uninvested flash cannon? I know I'm not investing anything into Spatk but the base 145 from the mega should let it hit pretty hard. That's all dependent though on if the fairies of Uber run Defence or Sp Defence primarily.

I really like U-Turn on Greninja, because it allows me to run it first as a lead, and switch out of trouble if i need to. Though, if I'm using a spin ferrothorn lead, and scrapping my Scizor, I don't really need that much utility, so I'm open to changing the set up. I did read upon the addition of low kick for the T-Tar checks, but with my scald (possibly hydro) i'm already hitting them with ridiculous water damage. The azumarill's are checked by my luacrio, but I suppose a back up fairy check wouldn't hurt.

Groudon - Would you run HP and the new invested Sp. Def? That removes any investment on Groudon's attack, but I suppose it's high enough base to still do damage? Is it a more reliable set at the cost of some attack? I like the idea of going extra bulky,with perhaps 252 hp/176 sp.def and the rest in speed? or possibly the 12 speed and the rest in attack. So many choices! :(

Talonflame - the tailwind could be a good asset to allow my slower Xerneas to set up a bit quicker - a faster geomancy means a faster win. The EV's I don't understand though; I'm unsure what you mean about the genescent getting SpA instead of Attack? Could you enlighten me on this? Will change the set - what would you run instead of flash cannon? perhaps focus blast?

Scizor - Well I'm considering scrapping this for a defensive Ferrothorn lead, for spikes rather than Defog. However (and I put this question to the original poster) that gives my team a big weakness to fire - a Kyurem-W can rip through those mons. Is this an issue, or is uber too fast paced for things like this perhaps?

I'll look into the changes you've posted, and test them out, but I really need some guidance on the Genescent thing, and how YOU would build Groudon based on the changes you posted above.

Again, huge thanks, you put a lot of time into this rate, it's much appreciated :)

EDIT: just had a flick through the team posted in your sig, and noticed it's largely Hp and defence oriented, with only your Arceus as a "sweeper" set. In this common in ubers? I'm fairly used to 3 or 4 sweepers on a team and a a few defensive mons; is this due to the large power spikes of the legendaries dominating the tier?

 

[Dilwar]

I wouldn't run Flash Cannon on that Lucario, it's not worth it. You can just go Swords Dance if you don't like Iron Tail's accuracy. Even if the Fairies run PhysDef, an invested physical move will hit them harder than an uninvested, negative nature special move anyway.

The Attack on Groudon is good since you want it to be offensive. The remaining EVs can be put in HP, but you can put them in Speed if you really want to speed creep. On an offensive Primal Groudon, I personally run 104 HP / 252+ Atk / 96SpDef / rest in Speed. The one in my team is a support Primal Groudon, it's more dedicated to take hits rather than be offensive, which is why it's not running attack EVs.

As for the Genesect thing, Genesect's ability is called Download. The way it works is, on switch-in, Genesect's Attack or Special Attack is raised depending on the other Pokemon's lower Defense. So, if you have a lower Special Defense, it gets a Special Attack boost, and vice versa. By running 28 Defense EVs, you make Xerneas's physical defense higher than its special defense, this means Genesect gets the special attack boost on switch in. This is the more desired outcome since Genesect likes to run physical moves. By not giving it an Attack boost, you take less damage from its Iron Head etc. And yes, Focus Blast is what I would run, it's arguably Xerneas's best coverage move this gen.

Removing Scizor leaves you with no hazard removal, which is pretty eh on a team running Talonflame. If you want to go Ferro though, the fire weakness isn't too bad. You still have Xerneas and Lucario to deal with Kyu-W.

As for you edit question, my team is a balanced team. I actually have 2 "sweepers" in Xerneas and Arceus, and 2 powerhouses in Kyogre and Ho-oh. Defensive Salamence and P-Don are the things glueing the team together.

"I'm fairly used to 3 or 4 sweepers on a team and a a few defensive mons; is this due to the large power spikes of the legendaries dominating the tier?"

Some teams, otherwise known as Hyper Offense actually use 5 set up sweepers and a dedicated hazard lead.

3 or 4 set up sweepers with some defensive mons is usually referred to as balance, I believe this is the archtype you are most familiar with.

Then there are stall teams, with 6 defensive Pokemon.

 

[MaChew94]

Lucario - I think a mega, +2 invested 80 base move is enough anyway; it effectively turns a priority move into a more powerful iron head on a similar typed poke, like excadrill. My problem now is, this is the first time I've used a sweeper with a boost move; before, I've relied on choice items and priority to clutch kills - My T-flame is an example of this. I'm finding it hard to judge when it's safe to set up, especially on someone so frail,what with all the coverage moves mons can get these days. Still, I prefer the idea of a boost move over iron tail - my B punch has enough damage.

Groudon - I agree with the EV's you've posted; the 252 attack still lets me reach that milestone of 504, while retaining enough sp. def and hp to make Kyogre's Ice beam a 3HKO, and giving me enough speed to outrun the checks, and similarly invested Groudons - is this poke'mon for real? (it's base stats are incredible!) It also deals with an enemy Geo-Xern really well; taking around 70% HP from a resisted moonblast (which is no joke) and retaliating with a hugely invested EQ - hopefully not too many Xern's run a defensive build like mine.

Xerneas - I like the idea of investing heavily into defence; it really catches people off guard, and so I was wondering if a 252 sp.atk, 60 speed, 120 def and the rest into HP would be viable; with the sp.def boost of Geomancy, this gives me the boost over Genesect like you said, allows me to tank hits and set up, and then remain bulky while performing the famous sweep. I can also switch into it more comfortably then, knowing it can take a hit or two.

I'm considering the Ferrothorn lead; a defensive spikes and spinner is great for this team, and doesn't harm the SR from my Groudon either! I'm also considering keeping the Greninja set as it is; it performs great against the Gren set you mentioned; I believe the most common set - i.e. I oustpeed the Gren, U-turn (and deal around 75% health) then switch into something that resists the gunk shot. I'm toying with it though, but I like the idea of a speed pivot.

I was also considering the removal of Luc and adding a Dialga instead; resisting moonblast gives me a Xerneas and a Giratina check; the latter stalled me out last game, prompting me to swap Rock slide on P-don to ghost claw; however this is untested and was a last minute change. Thoughts? With regards to the Dialga, i'm going to leave my Luc in the team, but Dia is something I'll consider for my next team - it gives me huge fairy pressure, which from a dragon is something i find amusingly ironic.


As for the types of teams; Hyper offence sounds super squishy but also stacks of fun - I suppose you'd run a lead like Azelf with T-wave, light screen, reflect. Or perhaps a baton-passer? and then 5 sweepers? I mean, you can get ridiculous damage down but you can't take a hit with anything - I'd feel really wary switching anything in.

As before, many thanks for the comments; you're really helping me out, and I appreciate it :)

 

[Dilwar]

Lucario - I think a mega, +2 invested 80 base move is enough anyway; it effectively turns a priority move into a more powerful iron head on a similar typed poke, like excadrill. My problem now is, this is the first time I've used a sweeper with a boost move; before, I've relied on choice items and priority to clutch kills - My T-flame is an example of this. I'm finding it hard to judge when it's safe to set up, especially on someone so frail,what with all the coverage moves mons can get these days. Still, I prefer the idea of a boost move over iron tail - my B punch has enough damage.

Groudon - I agree with the EV's you've posted; the 252 attack still lets me reach that milestone of 504, while retaining enough sp. def and hp to make Kyogre's Ice beam a 3HKO, and giving me enough speed to outrun the checks, and similarly invested Groudons - is this poke'mon for real? (it's base stats are incredible!) It also deals with an enemy Geo-Xern really well; taking around 70% HP from a resisted moonblast (which is no joke) and retaliating with a hugely invested EQ - hopefully not too many Xern's run a defensive build like mine.

Xerneas - I like the idea of investing heavily into defence; it really catches people off guard, and so I was wondering if a 252 sp.atk, 60 speed, 120 def and the rest into HP would be viable; with the sp.def boost of Geomancy, this gives me the boost over Genesect like you said, allows me to tank hits and set up, and then remain bulky while performing the famous sweep. I can also switch into it more comfortably then, knowing it can take a hit or two.

I'm considering the Ferrothorn lead; a defensive spikes and spinner is great for this team, and doesn't harm the SR from my Groudon either! I'm also considering keeping the Greninja set as it is; it performs great against the Gren set you mentioned; I believe the most common set - i.e. I oustpeed the Gren, U-turn (and deal around 75% health) then switch into something that resists the gunk shot. I'm toying with it though, but I like the idea of a speed pivot.

I was also considering the removal of Luc and adding a Dialga instead; resisting moonblast gives me a Xerneas and a Giratina check; the latter stalled me out last game, prompting me to swap Rock slide on P-don to ghost claw; however this is untested and was a last minute change. Thoughts? With regards to the Dialga, i'm going to leave my Luc in the team, but Dia is something I'll consider for my next team - it gives me huge fairy pressure, which from a dragon is something i find amusingly ironic.


As for the types of teams; Hyper offence sounds super squishy but also stacks of fun - I suppose you'd run a lead like Azelf with T-wave, light screen, reflect. Or perhaps a baton-passer? and then 5 sweepers? I mean, you can get ridiculous damage down but you can't take a hit with anything - I'd feel really wary switching anything in.

As before, many thanks for the comments; you're really helping me out, and I appreciate it :)

I like that Xerneas spread since it lets you live a +2 Extremespeed from Life Orb Arceus after Stealth Rock, allowing you to act as a check to it or even set up on it. Your Greninja set is fine, I was just suggesting alternate options, and the set I posted is what I feel works best in general play, but you can keep the set if you feel most comfortable with it.

Dialga doesn't resist Moonblast, as he is part Dragon type, making it take neutral damage. It does pressure Fairies though, and yes it can check Giratina. I would however not run Shadow Claw at all on Groudon. If anything, run Dragon Claw, not only does it hit harder, but it gives you coverage against things like Latios and Latias, as well as hitting a lot of Dragons that resist its dual-STAB. Again, remember just because it is super effective, doesn't mean it's doing good damage. Shadow Claw is actually pitifully weak, being non-STAB and all.

Super effective Shadow Claw: 70BP x 2 = 140

STAB Earthquake = 100 x 1.5 = 150

Lastly, I feel your view on Hyper Offense comes from inexperience. It is not always about leading dual-screens, it's rarely that in fact, and just because it's called Hyper Offense, doesn't mean everything on the team is "squishy" or can't take a hit. The standard HO team in Ubers actually has a good amount of bulky Pokemon.

Here is what is known as "bog-standard HO" in Ubers: lead Deo-S (rocks, spikes, taunt, filler), darkrai, geoxern, ekiller, rpolish or double dance p-don, mega salamence / mega gengar.

As standard as it maybe, it's actually a pretty solid team, and as you can see the only frail Pokemon there is Darkrai. It has a good record in tournament play and is good to use on the ladder, I personally peaked with it.

 

[MaChew94]

Groudon - the Dragon claw over S. Claw also hits Giratina harder, which is the main reason for the check (d'oh!).

I'm hyped to test the EV spreads though - it's interesting to see so many different stats being put into the poke'mon for various checks; the balanced teams that I'm used to in OU have very bog-standard Evs. Perhaps I'll try a HO team (isn't Mega Gengar frail? It's fast, sure, but it can't really take a hit, can it? Perhaps it's about resistances rather than the hp and defences of pokes that I'm not used to).

One last thing; how do you know that my Xern spread will survive something so specific as a +2 extremespeed (and by +2 do you mean boosted or priority)? Is it just down to experience? It's a skill I'd really like to develop - I'd like to help teams rather than just lurk the forums! Is it a case of learning off a master? :P

Regardless, thanks for your help chap! :)

EDIT:

Without wanting to flood this topic with long posts, I felt it might be interesting and useful to post my new team, newly invested and with changes highlighted:

Lucario @ Lucarionite
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Ice Punch

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 96 SpD / 58 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Punch
- Dragon Claw

Greninja
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
- Hydro Pump

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
- Tailwind (opted for this over things like WoW and toxic (my forr has toxic) and this should help my sweeper mons set up.
- U-turn

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 76 HP / 120 Def / 252 SpA / 60 Spe ( higher HP stat than P-Don D: )
Modest Nature
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon - Forgot to change this; will change it F-blast.

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Protect
- Toxic

Whole new poke; i now have 3 very different leads; spikes tank Forr, SR attack P-Don and Fast U-Turn froggy. Sp. Def because it's Defence is already through the roof - this helps me tank mixed attacks - items and moves for stalling and healing - possibly refereshing sturdy if I take more damage/more healing.

So, with your changes on board, that's my new team :) Feel a lot more confident with this; it seems to check a lot more mons and woks together as a good unit :) massive thanks as per, sir.

 

[Dilwar]

Groudon - the Dragon claw over S. Claw also hits Giratina harder, which is the main reason for the check (d'oh!).

I'm hyped to test the EV spreads though - it's interesting to see so many different stats being put into the poke'mon for various checks; the balanced teams that I'm used to in OU have very bog-standard Evs. Perhaps I'll try a HO team (isn't Mega Gengar frail? It's fast, sure, but it can't really take a hit, can it? Perhaps it's about resistances rather than the hp and defences of pokes that I'm not used to).

One last thing; how do you know that my Xern spread will survive something so specific as a +2 extremespeed (and by +2 do you mean boosted or priority)? Is it just down to experience? It's a skill I'd really like to develop - I'd like to help teams rather than just lurk the forums! Is it a case of learning off a master? :P

Regardless, thanks for your help chap! :)

EDIT:

Without wanting to flood this topic with long posts, I felt it might be interesting and useful to post my new team, newly invested and with changes highlighted:

Lucario @ Lucarionite
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Ice Punch

Groudon @ Red Orb
Ability: Drought
EVs: 104 HP / 252 Atk / 96 SpD / 58 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stealth Rock
- Fire Punch
- Dragon Claw

Greninja
Ability: Protean
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Ice Beam
- U-turn
- Hydro Pump

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Brave Bird
- Tailwind (opted for this over things like WoW and toxic (my forr has toxic) and this should help my sweeper mons set up.
- U-turn

Xerneas @ Power Herb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 76 HP / 120 Def / 252 SpA / 60 Spe ( higher HP stat than P-Don D: )
Modest Nature
- Geomancy
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt
- Flash Cannon - Forgot to change this; will change it F-blast.

Forretress @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Protect
- Toxic

Whole new poke; i now have 3 very different leads; spikes tank Forr, SR attack P-Don and Fast U-Turn froggy. Sp. Def because it's Defence is already through the roof - this helps me tank mixed attacks - items and moves for stalling and healing - possibly refereshing sturdy if I take more damage/more healing.

So, with your changes on board, that's my new team :) Feel a lot more confident with this; it seems to check a lot more mons and woks together as a good unit :) massive thanks as per, sir.

Mega Gengar is frail yeah but the rest aren't, I forgot to rule him out. By +2 I mean boosted, as in it gets a Swords Dance up. As for the calc, play the game long enough and you just memorise the damage numbers, or you can estimate very closely. The calc I use to EV and know what attack will do what damage is from this: https://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/

The new teams looks nice but I'd change Forretress. A Custap Berry is the best item it can hold now. What that berry does is when you are below 25%, you get priority on that turn. This goes really well in tandem with its Sturdy ability.

Forretress @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Explosion
- Toxic Spikes
- Rapid Spin

This is the set I like to use, taken from an RMT by Steelphoenix. Gyro Ball anti-leads Magic Bouncers like Diancie, and pretty much always hits at max BP due to its low Speed. Explosion is good when you are in Custap range to get a nice amount of damage, but more importantly prevent your opp from Defogging or Rapid Spinning. Rapid Spin is there to remove hazards but you can remove that with an extra hazard if you want, while Toxic Spikes is the hazard I use, but Spikes would probably be better for your team. The EVs and nature minimizes Speed for max Gyro damage, and you still get to go first when at Custap range of course. Max Attack for max damage and the 120HP with 136SpDef lives any 2 hits from Deo-A, Mega Diancie etc.

 

[MaChew94]

I really wanted my forre to be defensive, and not a suicide lead though. I'll try your idea and see what happens.

With regards to the damage calculations, I'll check the site, but also play more; do you play more OU or Uber, just out of interest.

What I've found in the 10 or 11 (and only lost 1 of those) games is that my Mega Lucario hardly sweeps. My Geo-Xern usually does the work for me; is this something to worry about, or perhaps it's a case of not fidning the right team? I suppose with 2 boost poke'mon and various checks and counters I can flexibly sweep.

 

[letterman4]

I guess Lucario and Xerneas are options of sweeping. If Xerneas can't sweep, Lucario does and vice versa. Don't remove Lucario!

 

[MaChew94]

I guess Lucario and Xerneas are options of sweeping. If Xerneas can't sweep, Lucario does and vice versa. Don't remove Lucario!

That's what I was thinking, it's just a shame that I haven't used it so much yet and it's what the team was built around :( I'm not giving up though, he's staying. I'm adamant (see what I did there?)

EDIT:

Last post, I promise. So, I decided to actually really try my mega luc, and switched him into a toxic spiking greninja. Fairly happy with my match-up i swords danced, and when enemy gren aerial aced me i Ice punched him. Then, my luc proceeded to OHKO the Groudon AND Kyogre with a close combat, and cleaned up a OHKO on a genesect too, before bullet punching the doexys down, and ultimately facing Xerneas.

Now, I'm happy I can OHKO P-don and P-kyo with the same move, and outspeed them both. That's mad. However, a +2 bullet punch only did 87% Of xern's health (without being defensed trained; i asked the fella). Because it had taken damage previous, he ultimately died against the final poke'mon - unable to quite finish a whole team on his own :( (though it was damn close! See for yourself - link at bottom of post).

But, this is tricky. Lucario was who I wanted to build the team around - he's real fun, fast, strong and looks badass. But he can't OHKO a standard Xerneas build? That was another great thing about him - circumventing a Herb-Xern and killing it (i thought). I guess it's not really an issue; I can B-punch after the geomancy too, but I kinda thought Luc could kill him. Should I be bothered? I mean, he's certainly not weak - he OHKO'd the two primals. So is there anything to actually worry about?

What I got from this match was that Lucario totally works and is totally viable - he just needs that one swords dance sweep. I bet this guy can OHKO threats like Mega-mence too (for sure, since it's 4x weak to ice).

So yeah, I'm super happy with the team, and I've just restarted my Poke'mon X to get Luc and a new Xern. I'm gonna roll with a fully defensive Ferrothorn, but that's only because I want a reliable tank who can set-up and stall, that's all. Really, my only question is should I be worried about the power drop of B-punch?

Also, this team totally works and is really viable, (out of the 13 games I've played - I THINK - I've won 12, and the last one was due a gira stall) so massive thanks to the posters who helped me out here! Special thanks to Dilwar who basically drafted this team for me! Really happy to finally be able to use one of my favourite poke'mon ever! :)

The replay. I honestly thought I could kill that Xern. Ah well: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-225500573

- MaChew94 out.