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Move Category suggestions

Night Slash should be in the useless section unless there's no better Dark option like Knock Off or Crunch. Baton Pass should also be listed as useless in formats where it is banned. Dual Wingbeat should also be listed as useful, especially if the user has Technician or doesn't have Brave Bird or Drill Peck.

Zarel said:
We used to have more categories, but we got rid of them because we got annoyed by the endless arguing over which things belong in which categories.
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Is that... not what this thread is? I think having three sections would be good for better organization. Some "useful" moves like Acrobatics and some "useless" moves like Blizzard (which was useless like a day ago, but seems to have been promoted) exist more in a grey area of "I guess it's kinda useful, but you won't see it often" so it would be helpful both in cleaning up the useful moves to highlight the really useful ones, and also clean up the useless moves so you don't have to go digging in the trash to find a niche option.
 
Kris said:
no the point of this thread is actually because Mia and I were sick of getting a ton of suggestions to move one or two moves to viable/useless so we made a megathread instead
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I was replying to Zarel's comment on not having more than two categories, which itself was a reply to my original suggestion of making a third section for medium usefulness moves that then got morphed into this megathread.

The number of categories was reduced because people were arguing about where to put moves, but reducing the number of categories doesn't solve that (clearly, if this thread had to be made). It just reduces the number of places a move can be put.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
Is that... not what this thread is? I think having three sections would be good for better organization. Some "useful" moves like Acrobatics and some "useless" moves like Blizzard (which was useless like a day ago, but seems to have been promoted) exist more in a grey area of "I guess it's kinda useful, but you won't see it often" so it would be helpful both in cleaning up the useful moves to highlight the really useful ones, and also clean up the useless moves so you don't have to go digging in the trash to find a niche option.
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Our last move viability update was 17 days ago, and did not touch Blizzard. Blizzard seems to have always been in the "Useful" category for at least a few months.

"Useful" vs "Not ever useful" is a relatively objective line. We accept suggestions for things in the wrong place because it's rather straightforward to put things in one or the other. The line between "Useful" and "Really useful", on the other hand, is super subjective and will lead to tons of arguing and we simply don't have the energy for maintaining it.
 
Night Slash, Dual Wingbeat, and Steel Wing should be fixed now. Blizzard already always shows and I don't think that should be changed.

Smack Down is currently considered usable if the user is Ground-type. I wouldn't mind loosening it if someone has a better preference.
 
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Zarel said:
Our last move viability update was 17 days ago, and did not touch Blizzard. Blizzard seems to have always been in the "Useful" category for at least a few months.
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Huh. Could have sworn it was useless.

In any case, my point still stands. Useful/not is only maybe objective on paper, and definitely not in practice. Again, if it was truly objective, this thread would not exist. So all that ends up happening is less organization and argument over if fringe moves should be considered useful or not. That's why the extra distinction wouldn't be "useful vs very useful" but "useful vs niche". A space for the kind of moves you mainly just use as a neat tech, the kind of moves whose usefulness is debatable.
 
DrPumpkinz said:
In any case, my point still stands. Useful/not is only maybe objective on paper, and definitely not in practice. Again, if it was truly objective, this thread would not exist. So all that ends up happening is less organization and argument over if fringe moves should be considered useful or not. That's why the extra distinction wouldn't be "useful vs very useful" but "useful vs niche". A space for the kind of moves you mainly just use as a neat tech, the kind of moves whose usefulness is debatable.
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This thread exists because sometimes we get things wrong or forget to update for DLC. There are some small exceptions like Smack Down, but like I said, it's "relatively objective". It's significantly less effort than actually dealing with the line between "great move" and "good move" which will be much harder to maintain.

As for items, the "items" section should be split, or more items should be demoted to "usually useless items" (should be renamed to "niche"). Focus Band, Absorb Bulb, and Big Root are definitely not on the same level as Black Glasses, Yache Berry, and Weakness Policy.
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I'm rejecting the additional tier because we already have four tiers of items.

I've demoted Big Root and Focus Band. Is Absorb Bulb a typo? Are you getting it mixed up with Big Root or Shell Bell?
 
Zarel said:
Is Absorb Bulb a typo? Are you getting it mixed up with Big Root or Shell Bell?
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No, it's the first item on the list. If you get hit with a Water attack, your Sp. Att gets a boost and the bulb is consumed. It also has a few clones that are also listed in the "items" section. Cell Battery (Electric, Attack) Luminous Moss (Water, Sp. Def) and Snowball (Ice, Attack).
 
Is it possible to add a new tier (sorry Zarel) of item/ move that is basically just moves from relevant analyses? If no analysis for that tier+mon just don't have it. I'm honestly not sure what to call it, "commonly used moves/items" maybe? If this isn't possible to automate then probly a bad idea, but I know the calc does something similar.
 
Here are some moves with a case for lifting from "Not ever useful". I'll save some words and not put "Just altogether an okay move" or "A niche option" in front of every move. You can probably guess what use these moves could serve. They are just generally "decent" things that exist.

Acid Spray. Mentioned in SM Tentacruel and Nihilego analyses.
Bulldoze (for singles). Used for SS Drednaw, slotted for SM Entei, mentioned on random Ground-types.
Cosmic Power (and its clone Defend Order). Primary-slotted for SM Sigilyph. Maybe "if the user has Magic Guard"?
Final Gambit. Mentioned in SM Accelgor, used for XY Accelgor, used for XY Ninjask.
Flail and Reversal: If Generation=3. There's probably a lot.
Future Sight: Primary-slotted for SS Slowbro. Slotted for SS Slowking. Primary-slotted for SM Slowking. Prob restricted to Psychic-types though.
Heat Crash: Used for SS Stonjourner.
Mean Look + Spider Web: If user has Baton Pass and Generation<5. Trappass, e.g. RS Umbreon.
Metal Burst: Slotted for SM Bastiodon. Maybe if user has Sturdy?
Poison Fang: Primary-slotted for SM Silvally-Poison. Mentioned for SM Golbat. Prob restricted to Poison-types though.
Pollen Puff: No analyses, but it's basically Bug Buzz. If the user doesn't have Bug Buzz, maybe?
(Whirlpool or Infestation or Fire Spin or Snap Trap or Clamp): If the user has one of these and Perish Song. No Pokemon has both Snap Trap/Clamp and Perish Song, but Zap Cannon is given a No Guard exception, so thought I'd mention it. Didn't include the other partial-trap moves because they have immunities. SS Arceus-Water is an example analysis Pokemon.


EDIT: More suggestions.

Jaw Lock. It's comparable to Spirit Shackle, but traps the user too in exchange for being boosted by Strong Jaw. Too awkward in its sole learner, but just as a move, it seems alright.
Night Daze. Consensus now is that Dark Pulse's 5% accuracy and 20% flinch trumps Daze's 40% accuracy lower and 5 BP, so you won't see it on analyses these days, but they're comparable enough that the consensus is somewhat arbitrary I think? BW Zoroark slots it on 3/4 sets.
Power Trip: Used on SM Incineroar. Comparable to Stored Power.
Rock Tomb: Currently requires Technician, but is used on non-Technician Pokemon like SM Groudon-Primal and SM Excadrill.
Shadow Force. Used for SS and SM Arceus-Ghost. Mentioned for SS Giratina-O. Neither gets Poltergeist (yet?), but "if user doesn't have Poltergeist" would certainly be an objectively reasonable restriction.
Soak. Used for SS and SM Pyukumuku. Being able to freely Toxic things or remove STAB+guarantee type matchups (Lanturn?) gives it some use to Pokemon besides just Pyukumuku.
 
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drampa's grandpa said:
Is it possible to add a new tier (sorry Zarel) of item/ move that is basically just moves from relevant analyses? If no analysis for that tier+mon just don't have it. I'm honestly not sure what to call it, "commonly used moves/items" maybe? If this isn't possible to automate then probly a bad idea, but I know the calc does something similar.
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This ties into my idea of incorporating usage stats. If we incorporated "commonly used moves" from the usage stats, it would include the moves on the analyses.
 
Petuuuhhh said:
This ties into my idea of incorporating usage stats. If we incorporated "commonly used moves" from the usage stats, it would include the moves on the analyses.
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It's also a WAY more objective delineation, and takes care of the hard-to-quantify uselessness of moves like Ice Beam or Poltergeist on Pokemon like Weavile and Gengar.
 
sup, went thru mew's movepool and commented on moves in usually useless that i have used before

burning jealousy - nu thievul uses this as a coverage move because it has a bad movepool, could be moved up for mons without access to flamethrower/fire blast/mystical fire (maybe that's too complicated?)

corrosive gas - basically anything that gets it and doesnt have knock off will consider using it due to how nice item displacement is. ru vileplume / ru/nu weezing / nu garbodor / uu weezing-galar / lc koffing are a few examples that come to mind.

future sight - gaining prominence in ss with future sight - teleport combos

grassy glide - good on terrain teams / rillaboom line

icy wind - is usable

mystical fire - i discussed this elsewhere but yea, lot of fairies use this as fire coverage, defensive fires can also make use of its -spatk effect

pollen puff - rare coverage move on things like nu eldegoss / uu celebi (very rare, but usable)

work up - usable on mons without sd / np / calm mind / bulk up, most notably silvally
 
Expulso said:
sup, went thru mew's movepool and commented on moves in usually useless that i have used before

burning jealousy - nu thievul uses this as a coverage move because it has a bad movepool, could be moved up for mons without access to flamethrower/fire blast/mystical fire (maybe that's too complicated?)

corrosive gas - basically anything that gets it and doesnt have knock off will consider using it due to how nice item displacement is. ru vileplume / ru/nu weezing / nu garbodor / uu weezing-galar / lc koffing are a few examples that come to mind.

future sight - gaining prominence in ss with future sight - teleport combos

grassy glide - good on terrain teams / rillaboom line

icy wind - is usable

mystical fire - i discussed this elsewhere but yea, lot of fairies use this as fire coverage, defensive fires can also make use of its -spatk effect

pollen puff - rare coverage move on things like nu eldegoss / uu celebi (very rare, but usable)

work up - usable on mons without sd / np / calm mind / bulk up, most notably silvally
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For reference, Grassy Glide is shown usable if user has Grassy Surge, Mystical Fire is if the user doesn't have Flamethrower, and Icy Wind if the user is Keldeo or is in doubles. Obviously conditions can be expanded, though.

Especially for Icy Wind, which probably doesn't need conditions.

(These can be seen here.)
 
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Useful:
Acid Armor: If the user doesnt have iron defense
Ally Switch: If its a doubles format
Ancient Power: If its the strongest special rock move the user has / If the users ability is serene grace
Beat Up: If doubles
Bounce: If format is gen 7
Bug Bite: If ability is technician
Bulldoze: If doubles
Coaching: If doubles
Conversion: If gen 7
Dark Void: If before the dark void nerf
Decorate: If doubles
Electroweb: If doubkes
Focus Energy: If ability is sniper
Moves boosted by terrain that arent misty explosion
Gravity: If has useful ground move
Growth
Icy Wind: If doubles
Ingrain: If Gen 3
Lunar Dance: cresselia
Mirror Move: if gen 7
Muddy Water: if doubles
Redirection moves: If doubles
Refresh
Techno Blast: Genesect
 
AllTerrainVen0moth said:
Bounce: If format is gen 7
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This should also apply if the format allows Dynamax, as it allows for some Pokemon to viably use Max Airstream, namely Gyarados. Fly should get the same treatment for this reason for Lando-T.

Examples of them not being useful in VGC 2021;
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1604335481479.png
 
I'd like to point out that the check for Giga Drain removes HP Grass from TeamBuilder. I eliminated this check myself for earlier Generations, so I guess this falls into the "too specific" usage case? If so, I don't understand what is and isn't too specific.
 
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AllTerrainVen0moth said:
Ally Switch: If its a doubles format
Ancient Power: If its the strongest special rock move the user has / If the users ability is serene grace
Bulldoze: If doubles
Coaching: If doubles
Dark Void: If before the dark void nerf
Electroweb: If doubles
Icy Wind: If doubles
Muddy Water: if doubles
Redirection moves: If doubles
Refresh
Techno Blast: Genesect
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These already exist. (Ancient Power additionally shows useful if ability is Technician or if the user has Meteor Beam but not Power Gem. Refresh shows as useful if the user doesn't have Aromatherapy or Heal Bell. Techno Blast shows as useful if a Drive item is held.)

Growth could be useful if the user has Chlorophyll or Leaf Guard?

Lunar Dance can just be straight-up "useful", because Healing Wish is "useful", and Lunar Dance is just a better version.
 
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