M&M Mix and Mega Suspect #10: Shuckle

Chloe

Chloe

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is a Top Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Metagame Resource Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
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"stacky wobs." - cool user
​
Summary:
The Mix and Mega Council has decided that we will be conducting our next suspect test of Generation 7 on Shuckle.

Shuckle (and Sticky Web as a whole) has been a prominent force within Mix and Mega for several years now. With limited counterplay, Sticky Web teams are very often in an extremely advantageous situation, bypassing their strength in regular usage tiers due to the myriad of potent attackers within the metagame, the reliance on blanket checks and the potency of its most common setter, Shuckle. Shuckle's ability to alternate between guaranteed webs against powerful attackers vs guaranteed webs against Magic Bounce; its innate bulk, and its useful movepool make it the obvious choice for Sticky Web based teams. Even its ability to set up Stealth Rock without much hassle should not be taken for granted. For a more indepth explanation, please consult Chazm's excellent post on the matter describing the potency and possible unhealthiness of Shuckle in the metagame.

We will not be holding a suspect test on Sticky Web if the result of this suspect test ends in Do Not Ban. The council believes that this is not an appropriate solution to this problem, as other Sticky Web setters don't compare. Please keep this in mind when casting your vote. Do not argue the merits of suspect testing Sticky Web instead in this thread. This better not become a thing this time, I'm sure we can all agree Landorus-Therian was the right suspect target now.

Shuckle will be permitted to bear Mega Stones during the suspect testing process.

ampharosite.png
Ampharosite |
Bug.png
Dragon.png
| Mold Breaker | 20/30/250/60/250/1
Bag_Gyaradosite_Sprite.png
Gyaradosite |
Bug.png
Dark.png
| Mold Breaker | 20/40/255/20/255/5
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Some quick high-level replays showcasing Shuckle in action:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-951459194
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-954515509
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7mixandmega-948147349

The suspect test will last fourteen days, concluding on September 9th at 11:59pm EST.

Note: This suspect is solely for Shuckle's ability to hold mega stones.

Requirements:
There are multiple methods for obtaining reqs for this suspect test.

Firstly, the most reliable option of playing ranked games until you obtain a GXE of 83 in 35 or more games is recommended. You are required to have the prefix "MSS" in your account name. This acronym must precede any other characters in the name. These requirements should not be difficult to obtain in comparison to previous suspect tests, so please ensure you try this prior to relying on the latter method.
MSS me with that - ✓
HIT or MSS - ✗
Click to expand...

Secondly, there is an option to earn it via the Other Metagames room's daily tournaments. The winner and runner up of both the Wednesday August 28th Daily Tournament and the Wednesday, September 4th Daily Tournament will gain automatic voting requirements unless they have previously obtained them. I will remind everyone of the times of each of these tournaments in the thread, prior to their occurrence.

Post your suspect requirements proof in this thread, without your vote. You will be eligible to vote as long as you have complied with the listed requirements, have provided a screenshot of said requirements, and have supplied proof that the alt is yours. You may post your opinion on the subject or what you will be voting, as this thread is not limited to posting reqs. However, it is important to mention that solely voting here and not following the instructions given within this paragraph and the following one will ensure your vote doesn't count.

Voting:
Once the suspect period is over, I will tag everyone who has obtained reqs by this point. I will then outline a process of blind voting, which will be clarified once this time arrives. For now, follow the above "Requirements" subheading to ensure that you've posted your reqs correctly. If this is difficult to understand, please message me on my Smogon profile and I will clarify it for you.

A super-majority of 60% ban is required for Shuckle to be banned from holding Mega Stones.

TL;DR:
- Shuckle is being suspected from holding Mega Stones.
- Shuckle will be able to hold Mega Stones during the testing process.
- The GXE requirement is 83, the game amount must amount to or exceed 35.
- Post requirements in this thread. This is not where your vote is posted though. Read the "Voting" subheading for more information.
- Suspect Test will conclude on September 9th at 11:59pm EST.
- A ban vote of 60% is required to remove Shuckle's ability to hold Mega Stones.
- Shuckle will remain unbanned throughout the remainder of OMPL.

You may start laddering right away. Good luck!

Tagging The Immortal to implement the suspect alert when matches start up. Thank you :>
 
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Webs are really dumb, they were spammed throughout OMPL and they just promote unhealthy teambuilding and propel threats such as Xurkitree, Tapu Lele, and Pinsirite Magearna to unhealthy degrees. I feel banning Shuckle is the best course of action here.
 
192724


S/o xavgb for a really nice webs slaying offense that helped me power through the spammers on ladder. While I previously thought webs was very good and have enjoyed quite a bit of success abusing it throughout the years, I never even considered the possibility of it being a bannable threat... until the last few months. The introduction of Manectite Xurkitree and Pins Mage has turned the flying types that previously handled webs well into frequent liabilities when facing the style. There is no reliable defensive counterplay to Xurkitree. Therefore, we are forced to try to answer it with offensive revenge killers. That means pixiespeed is your most reliable means of revenging this thing once webs go up which would be fine if it wasn't for Lele.

Lele can completely eliminate this revenge factor and force even more horrible scenarios when trying to deal with Xurkitree under webs. So with the primary flying type speed control options out the window and pixiespeed being severely limited here, the question is what are we left with to deal with these giant threats? Not much. Ditto is likely the best means for dealing with webs however, there are ways around that such as double primal cores and Lunala + Pursuit combos and although Ditto can halt a clean sweep at the hands of Xurkitree or such, webs doesn't always have to spam setup to win. It usually has enough raw power with Erupdon or boom spam to muscle through a lot of teams particularly after you've softened up defensive backbones with Xurk to force the Ditto to come out in this scenario.

As for the inevitable "just use Taunt" it's not always that simple. Once again, webs has the ability to pack switchins to many of the common Taunters in MnM such as Tapu Lele, Zeraora and Noivern. Even Terrakion can be handled if you predict the Taunt and immediately shift the momentum back in webs' favor. Then all you need is one predict or one sack to bring in Shuckle on a non taunt mon and hazards go up. Alternatively and more commonly, they can just predict you to lead with the Zeraora, Noivern or Terrakion and counterlead that and you're already in a bad situation.

I'm not 100% sure what i'll vote yet but tldr: I find webs to be incredibly oppressive right now and likely the biggest menace to the metagame. There has never been a time since the presence of Red Orb Naganadel that it has been possible to just click through a matchup and win because of the offensive power of Xurkitree with fellow abusers.
 
i just want to say, shuckle isn't the only mon that is able to set webs down consistently, it is just the best one at it. (amp aranquanid lives a hit from literally everything pretty well and has magic coat to back it up vs taunt and etc.)

hearing about why exactly shuckle is the one at fault here instead of webs would make much more sense here
 
Fardin said:
i just want to say, shuckle isn't the only mon that is able to set webs down consistently, it is just the best one at it. (amp aranquanid lives a hit from literally everything pretty well and has magic coat to back it up vs taunt and etc.)

hearing about why exactly shuckle is the one at fault here instead of webs would make much more sense here
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It's simply the most widely used, plus it doubles up as one that's got stealth rock 2

Role compression is good

Edit to Fardin below; It's got the god move encore too so it's nigh impossible to setup on

These two moves allow shuckle to not be a momentum suck which is good
 
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OM room said:
It's simply the most widely used, plus it doubles up as one that's got stealth rock 2

Role compression is good
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fair but people are already running an extra srock user on most shuck webs team cause we all know double hazards from it is not guaranteed.
does that 1 extra thing put it over the edge from where we would have to ban shuck instead of webs, or is there more to it?
 
192783

Thank you xavgb for the team and for the pep talk when I was struggling with my other alt <3

I'm pro ban. Not gonna discuss webs as a whole, because it's been done and it's really constraining. On Shuckle per se, I find it far superior to any other webs setter because of:
- Solid pre and post Mega typing, with a very favorable transition that allows it to choose which attacks to be neutral to, bar Rock.
- Incredible bulk on both sides of the spectrum.
- Sturdy pre Mega, for any possible z-move or powerful rock move shenanigan (uncommon, but still cool to survive Lucarionite Terrakion's SE, in the rare occasions it would face Terrakion head on).
- Stealth Rocks, meaning that given the chance vs an insufficiently strong opponent, rocks can be set. This also means that vs very slow teams/TR, where webs are useless, Shuckle maintains utility besides the mere intoxicating of Sablenite users.
- Encore. This makes set up sweepers unreliable vs Shuckle, and a general momentum drain. What's even more important to me is how it interacts with Defog though, forcing the opponent to either lose a lot of momentum by allowing a free switch-in to a sweeper, or to switch, leaving one hazard on. Oh, and with Encore, it can beat Block and Thousand Waves shenanigans, albeit in a very complicated way that only Stresh and QT can actually put to practice.

So all in all, I believe the playstyle will have a really hard time finding an adequate substitute, and the terrifying reign of uncheckable sweepers (looking at you Xurk :blobglare: ) can finally end.
 
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I spent way too long trying to get 35-0 and eventually said fuck it.

Not really inclined to vote ban here until I see more convincing reasoning of Shuckle being the broken factor on webs. Chazm and Andy both did a great job explaining why webs is a problematic playstyle at the moment but I haven't been persuaded that banning Shuckle is the answer. Reading both Chazm and Andy's posts they highlight how the increased usage of Manectite Xurkitree has invalidated some of the best offense counterplay (Pinsirite Zeraora, Salamencite Noivern, etc) to webs as well as much of its defensive counterplay (hard to be specific but Manectite Xurkitree is damn near impossible to check defensively) which gave me the impression that Xurkitree is potentially the problematic element. I don't want to derail this thread with talks of other suspects, but it'd be nice to see some discussion more that centers more on Shuckle specifically than webs as a playstyle in general.
 
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reqs done. Holy shit I clowned so hard on this suspect. Glad I can stay out of the MnM ladder now.

As for Shuckle, I’m really not too sure about it’s banworthyness. While Shuckle is certainly much more potent in MnM than in most metas, I think the problem isn’t Shuckle itself, but Shuckle + breakers like Xurk and wincons like Pins Mag. Like Pigeons I think that we need to focus on whether the broken element is Shuckle or its partners.
 
Pigeons said:
sAPVoth.png


I spent way too long trying to get 35-0 and eventually said fuck it.

Not really inclined to vote ban here until I see more convincing reasoning of Shuckle being the broken factor on webs. Chazm and Andy both did a great job explaining why webs is a problematic playstyle at the moment but I haven't been persuaded that banning Shuckle is the answer. Reading both Chazm and Andy's posts they highlight how the increased usage of Manectite Xurkitree has invalidated some of the best offense counterplay (Pinsirite Zeraora, Salamencite Noivern, etc) to webs as well as much of its defensive counterplay (hard to be specific but Manectite Xurkitree is damn near impossible to check defensively) which gave me the impression that Xurkitree is potentially the problematic element. I don't want to derail this thread with talks of other suspects, but it'd be nice to see some discussion more that centers more on Shuckle specifically than webs as a playstyle in general.
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I have the same feeling than you. I play a lot of SW teams recently and it is without a doubt too strong.
What is the best solution ?
- Ban Shuckle ?
- Ban SW ?
- Ban Explosion ?
- Ban Xurkitree ?
Your reflection is funny because we ban Pidgeotite for the exact same reason.


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193073
 
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192981

got reqs. ladder was hell, especially with all the awful trick room and webs teams.
Shoutouts to Pigeons for his stall, and OM room for being a great supporter of me.

I won't say my opinion, but I do want to explain why Shuckle is being suspected.

So here's a little story.

Webs only really came into style after stresh and Andyboy joined the MnM community- there were previous attempts to make webs, some successful, some not. Stresh and Andyboy really brought it in the spotlight with his amazing teambuilding skills and recognization of strong threats in webs. Both players really pushed Sticky Web to its limit. They truly explored every nook and cranny of Sticky Web. If there was a threat that worked well on Sticky Web, you can bet stresh and/or Andyboy found it and used it to its full advantage.

So, webs was a strong playstyle. But not yet broken. That was, until the rise of Naganadel. I'm sure many of us remember the terror that was Naganadel. The big issue was that Red Orb Naganadel was pushing it over the edge. Red Orb Naganadel wasn't impressive on its own, but on webs, it became a real terror. Boasting a better offensive typing, and the ability to turn Pixilate attacks into a neutral hit, Red Orb Naganadel singlehandedly made webs terrifying to face. But Naganadel was terrifying outside of webs too. It's Red Orb set found places outside of webs, but it would truly be very effective on webs teams. Its Diancite set was an amazing revenge killer. Some found fringe use in Lucarionite, and other stones. But Diancite and Red Orb was the most prominent set, and the main reasons we were suspecting Naganadel. And so, we banned Naganadel.

Webs were bearable again, for a while. And then, the rise of Landorus-Therian. Outside of webs, Landorus-Therian was possible to deal with. It had decent utility, and nice STABs, thanks to Salamencite, and useful pre-mega ability in Intimidate. However, on webs, it became really terrifying. It often ran Explosion on webs teams, which became increasingly difficult to handle. Explosion and Landorus-Therian were hotly debated, and people disagreed over what should be banned. However, thankfully, Landorus-Therian was banned.

And now, webs' biggest toy here is Xurkitree. On webs, Manectite Xurkitree is horrifying to face. It invalidates many normal webs check by virtue of its electric typing and Manectite. It makes teams crumble at the sight of it setting up. But, before, we thought it was a manageable threat. It had decent utility, thanks to Manectite, but its bulk was average at best, and its speed wasn't something you would write home about. On webs, however, the speed becomes really good, and the passable bulk becomes enough to set up and begin claiming KOs.

These are the big primary threats on webs, but there are even more threats on webs, that are pretty manageable outside of webs, but very difficult to deal with in webs, due to how speed plays a big factor in it. These other threats include but are not limited to, Eruption Groudon-Primal, Water Spout Kyogre-Primal, Lucarionite Tapu Lele, Pinsirite Magearna, Lunala, and Adamant Metagrossite Kartana. There are definitely more threats, but those were the most prominent. Some threats, like Pinsirite Magearna and Altarianite Zygarde do not take advantage of the playstyle, but they can often enable Sticky Webs to become strong. They can enable threats like Tapu Lele on Sticky Web. And Tapu Lele can, in turn, form a great core with Pinsirite Magearna and/or Altarianite Zygarde, which would then make Webs more difficult to deal with.

Here's the thing, though. These threats are fairly manageable outside of webs. Adamant Metagrossite Kartana, for example, is rather slow compared to its Jolly variant and misses out on targets it would like to beat with Jolly. Eruption Groudon-Primal is very powerful, but often, it's usually eating a hit first, which makes Eruption weaker, and often, you would prefer Fire Blast or Overheat. Other threats are the same. They are either not very fast, and often wish they had better speed, or would often prefer other options if they usually eat a hit first. So, webs are the culprit to them being powerful, and difficult to deal with. So do we ban Sticky Web? Actually, no.

If Shuckle didn't exist, webs would not have been as consistent as it is. No matter how you look at it, any good webs team need Shuckle. Araquanid, Ribombee, and other webs setter just simply do not have the amazing points of using Shuckle. Shuckle boasts Sturdy as a pre-mega ability and it becomes very helpful often. If Shuckle evolving is disadvantageous to it, it can simply choose to stay in its base form and take advantage of Sturdy, and its Rock/Bug typing. And if it sees a potential Magic Bounce Pokemon? It can evolve into Mold Breaker and get webs up. And the worst part of the evolution part? It can pick two different typings to gain. Bug/Dark and Bug/Dragon are good defensive typing, and they often get different jobs done depending on who they want to make more difficult to deal with. Bug/Dragon, for instance, turns Fire- and Water-type moves into either neutral or not very effective hits. Bug/Dark screws around with Steel-types, and gains a nice immunity to Psychic moves. Both typing also removes many neutralities that comes with a Bug/Rock typing.

And this is only scratching the surface. Shuckle's main appeal is Sticky Web but it boasts other utility moves. Shuckle has Stealth Rock, Encore, and Toxic as its other options on its main sets, but Shuckle can find more fringe moves to use, such as Infestation. Stealth Rock means that Shuckle is not useless in the matchup versus slower teams, as it can still set up hazards versus slower teams, and let the rest of the team keep rocks up. Encore threatens to lock Pokemon in set up moves or moves that other members of the team can take advantage of. Toxic is the ever-useful move that Shuckle can take better advantage of thanks to Mold Breaker. Other Sticky Web Setters just don't compare. Araquanid can eat hits on the special side and can go for a Water/Dragon typing, but it lacks a useful ability pre-mega and often wishes it had extra utility moves when it faces slower teams, as it becomes near deadweight. Ribombee has Stun Spore, and Quiver Dance to make itself threatening, but it is really frail, and often, an Aerilate user or any Extreme Speed users can pick off Ribombee. It boasts the ability to have the same typing as Shuckle, but its pre-mega ability is rather lackluster compared to Sturdy. And the less said about other webs setter, the better. So really, Shuckle's many talents have established it as the face of Sticky Web teams. You just simply don't use other setters because, to be blunt, Shuckle is so much better than the others. Webs just simply wouldn't be as consistent as it is if Shuckle didn't exist. It would be a threat to worry about, but it would struggle in matchups versus teams that can adequately deal with it. Shuckle just brings in a whole new element of danger with its versatility. Set-up sweepers are afraid to come in versus Shuckle and slower teams can often struggle to deal with Pokemon on Sticky Web teams because of Stealth Rock.

So, Sticky Web is a dangerous playstyle, but it is still a cheese playstyle. By its very nature, it is inconsistent. Shuckle enables Sticky Web to become a very consistent style, and even provides support in matchups where Sticky Web is not desirable. Shuckle does so much, and I would probably also dare to say too much, for Sticky Web teams.

And that is why Shuckle is being suspected. Not Sticky Web, not Xukritree. Shuckle.

Thanks for reading.
 
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Stall is coming said:
I have the same feeling than you. I play a lot of SW teams recently and it is without a doubt too strong.
What is the best solution ?
- Ban Shuckle ?
- Ban SW ?
- Ban Explosion ?
- Ban Xurkitree ?
Your reflection is funny because we ban Pidgeotite for the exact same reason.
Click to expand...

bruh, webs were majorly influential in the last 3 bans this meta had
192983


So while, those things were pretty strong themselves, and rightfully banned, webs pushed them over the top, so it's pretty clear we have a problem that dates back, but only recently has it been fully abused as sect mentioned thus pushing this to a suspect
And no, there is virtually no other good setter of webs aside from shuckle, everything else can be abused to a degree that is impossible with shuckle. With it gone, so will the prevalence of webs, but they'll still be around because you're not actually banning the move, sticking in the corner waiting for the most adventurous of players to bring it out someday with the help of bombee or araq, but it will never be this rampant again.

e: forgot what i came here for
192984

Magearna @ Sablenite
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fleur Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Pain Split
- Heart Swap

Manaphy @ Sceptilite
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Tail Glow

Excadrill @ Glalitite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Return
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin

Mew @ Manectite
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam
- Soft-Boiled
- U-turn

Ditto @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Imposter
Hidden Power: Ice
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Transform

Zeraora @ Pinsirite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Plasma Fists
- Bulk Up
- Taunt

Cool squad overall, Zeraora is actually way better than I imagined since i had never really given it a good look. Also the good ol' Max Spa Sab Magearna still breaks shit appart was super fun playing with this set again. Manaphy was just doing manaphy things, maybe with a lele or smth to protect it from pixiespeed it can be relevant, it has surprising bulk but that shit sets it back a ton and manec mana is p meh tbh. HP Ground could be cool on it too for red orbers and pex but i wouldnt know what to remove
 
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quick shoutouts to my internet for making me sweat

Vote: Ban

Reasoning: Historically during these suspect tests, i opt for banning whatever makes the mon broken rather than banning that specific mon, with my reasoning being that the meta will usually find a replacement, nullifying the original ban. However, much like Deoxys Speed, it's clear that Shuckle's unique movepool makes it a potent setter, and with its stats, makes it overwhelming. So while I generally feel like players should stop being soft and whining because their team loses what's essentially a 5v6, shuckle itself has become too centralized a figure and warps the meta around one playstyle, which is why I vote ban.

shuckle.gif
 
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