Mirror Matches in Competitive Play

eric the espeon

maybe I just misunderstood
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To accompany the Mirror Match Tournament (some of my original thoughts can be found in the OP), approved by Jibaku.

When both you and your opponent have the same team, and both know it, several large facets of the game are removed. This allows us to focus in and test two specific elements on competitive Pokemon in great detail: Long term thinking and Prediction. In these games guesses about the opponent's team, team building skill, and team advantage are utterly removed.

A less extreme version of this happens on ladder from time to time with popular teams being copied by many people, though they will generally not be aware they are using the same team as the other until some way into the game. Another, even more toned down, version of this occurs in "best of three" tournaments, or ladder replays. Here you know a significant amount about your foe's team so the guesswork is reduced, but the team advantages (both unavoidable, and due to team building skill) are still around in full force.

Without the need to build a team capable of taking on all other teams within the allotted ruleset games can be very different, for example one Delta thought up in #stark:
[22:37] <Delta2777> Oh, you know what'd be good?
[22:38] <Delta2777> A team of 2 Rapid Spinners, 2 SRers, 1 ghost, and Shedninja (the other pokes can't touch sheddy)
[22:38] <Delta2777> Well I guess that'd be two ghosts
[22:39] <Delta2777> And a phazer in case they switch to sheddy first turn
Matches using this form of team would be played with the same mechanics as a normal game, yet the objectives would be very different from any standard type of metagame. There are huge numbers of these highly specific "Mirror Metagames", one for each team in fact. Most will be largely uninteresting, but many will have some unique twist to make it particularly fun. I hope that some of these interesting mirror metagames will be explored, and that we can learn from them.

So, what are your thoughts on the various forms of mirror matches? Do you have any great ideas for teams to use in them? If so please post them, I will attach a few particularly interesting teams to this post as shoddy team files so that people can easily challenge others to specific mirror matches.
 
I've never had any experience with mirror matches, but I have had a fair few rematches on the ladder. (Since after finishing a battle both players hit find again, and get paired again). A significant number of people quit such matches, but when they go ahead I've found them very interesting. Knowing some of my opponent's team means I can act accordingly, and avoid making 'mistakes' I made first time round. The result of the rematch does often differ from the first match.
 
Another "less extreme" version of the story is when two teams of the same type run into each other. Despite potential differences in builds, when one guy leads Electrode and the other guy leads with Qwilfish, you pretty much both know that it's rain v. rain.

Even more obvious is when two abamasnow run into each other. You know it's not going to be your typical fight to take advantage of your own weather condition (because it's obvious the opponent has built for the same conditions). Of course there's room for variance within weather teams, but you will see many of the same key pokemon regardless of builds (you won't see rain without Kabutops and Kingdra if OU, and you likely won't see hail without Walrein, etc.).

I do realize that weather teams are a special case (being that they're a bit more obvious than most potential "mirrors" and that they're special set-up, weather, happens to affect both players the same way), but it does illustrate one of the special cases even in standard play of fighting against your own strategy.
 
Not everything would come down to a speed tie. Only if each trainer sent out the same POKEMON at the same time (not very advantageous to either side). I think mirror matches are a great idea--you take out the team-building aspect and put in sheer knowledge of the game and skill.
 
I had a similar situation with me and my friend who both had very similar teams except he had a something in place of Tomb (iirc a Pert) whereas I didn't. I actually thought it was harder than regular matches, because I find myself over predicting a lot more than I usually do (I do it alot btw). So I basically end up killing myself with my own bad luck.

I also had encountered some Mirror Teams during the #stark Challenge with similar mono fighting type teams. It wasn't very difficult at all, because a huge portion of the metagame was gone from us having to worry about. (Not sure if that's relevant but yeah).
 
well in eric's tournament you can create a team and you AND your opponent have to use the exact same team.

So i could make my team a scarftran with ONLY earth power and fire blast. There would also be a DD kingdra with minimum defense and max speed and attack with DD, waterfall, and dragon claw. The other four pokemon are caterpies. Clearly this match is 100% luck as whoever wins the speed tie with kingdra (which SHOULD be the lead) automatically wins the match.

I this is a completely rigged example to get across my point, but the key factor in any mirror match (with offense at least) WILL be a speed tie, which sucks. This is why i never lead with deoxys-e in ubers. I really hate having my back thrown against the wall from a speed tie, especially first turn
 
I agree in ultimifier's post in that speed ties will be the major problem of mirror matches. While I like the idea of making Pokemon a game of perfect information, this only makes luck a more prominent problem of the game.
 
Antar said:
Not everything would come down to a speed tie. Only if each trainer sent out the same POKEMON at the same time (not very advantageous to either side). I think mirror matches are a great idea--you take out the team-building aspect and put in sheer knowledge of the game and skill.
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There would be a lot of speed ties. Generally, the best counter/wall for any pokemon is themselves.

Also, whoever wins the speed tie at the very beginning of the match pretty much decides who will be dominant for the rest of it.
 
The Mirror Match tournament should use some famous team from the RMT Archive rather than using a gimmick team with a Shedinja or letting the players make their own teams. This way, you will know that the team being used is a good team and that it better represents the metagame than a gimmick team. This tournament should be about the role of prediction and luck in a metagame like that of the Shoddy ladder, not a metagame drastically different from the Shoddy ladder.
 
Staraptor Call said:
The Mirror Match tournament should use some famous team from the RMT Archive rather than using a gimmick team with a Shedinja or letting the players make their own teams. This way, you will know that the team being used is a good team and that it better represents the metagame than a gimmick team. This tournament should be about the role of prediction and luck in a metagame like that of the Shoddy ladder, not a metagame drastically different from the Shoddy ladder.
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Why? By doing this you're limiting the fun mirror-match exclusive teams. I can imagine the shedinja example to be sort of like chess, both people armed with the same men, with shedinja being the "king" that you must checkmate to beat. If you want it to be like shoddy battle, then go for it, make your teams that way, but don't limit other people's creativity just because you don't have any
 
420 said:
I can imagine the shedinja example to be sort of like chess, both people armed with the same men, with shedinja being the "king" that you must checkmate to beat.
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Exactly. That's how I see it, too. Of course, in chess there's the possibility of Stalemate...
 
I've been exploring the team-building aspect of mirror matches fervently since your originally posting the tournament the other day, ETE. There are a ton of very exciting things that can be done. For instance, one of my teams I have already developed focuses heavily on using Trick as the main mode of defeating a Pokemon. However, a misprediction in what they will switch into you can cost you, as you may Trick a Flame Orb onto your physical attacker and 'defeat yourself.'

There are hundreds of other things to explore. One of my favorites thus far is the weather game. You place a Shedinja on the team alongside a Kyogre and a Tyranitar, neither of which can hit Shedinja super effectively. You now have to outmaneuver your opponent's weather users, while taking switch-in damage, in order to command victory over the opponent's Shedinja and take on the team. Give Shedinja Sunny Day for even more excellent prediction fun.

Yet another exciting prospect of this is the use of different levels or IVs to "tailor" the stats of Pokemon. For instance, we all recognize Smeargle as a Pokemon with very low base stats, but I have another team where Smeargle is the Pokemon with the highest stats simply by virtue of being the only Level 100 on the team. In this way, Smeargle can even compete in the Uber tier! (As is the case with my team) This sort of chaotic mindgame, especially if your team has two identically appearing Smeargles with different moves who can sweep your team if you don't pay close attention, creates a lot of interesting metagame dynamics that force players to think in new ways.

Also, on the matter of speed ties. If you design your team well and build it in a Rock-Paper-Scissors fashion where the best "answer" to a Pokemon is another Pokemon (and not the same Pokemon), then you largely eliminate the likelihood of speed ties occuring/mattering. This is of particular note for all of the teams I design, as because there's a "best answer" to a Pokemon, it's also very predictable what the opponent might do. For instance, switching a TTar into a Shedinja to activate weather and kill it is very predictable, so if Shedinja is out and has Sunny Day, it can really still "beat" TTar.

Other cool things to try include:

  • Little Cup in the CAP Metagame with CAP Pokemon
  • Little Cup in the Ubers Metagame with things like Kyogre, etc.
  • Moves that in general tend to be gimmicks, but can be deadly when used against a specific team (Imprison, etc.)
  • Opposing Baton Pass chains
..and so forth. As I'm sure you're aware by now, there are tons of excellent options. I hope that I do well in this tournament, though, as I've made far too many exquisite and intriguing teams to use in just the first round.
 
Here's an idea.

What if, in the beginning of the turn, if both players have the same Pokemon out they are both forced to switch. This would negate speed ties as if you just try to switch in the same Pokemon to force the switch you're automatically putting yourself at a disadvantage because you'll get hit. Also, if two of the same Pokemon are the last Pokemon on their player's respective teams, then the match is a draw.

EDIT: Not sure if it's possible to set up a tournament like that on the Shoddy Server, but I'd certainly play a tourney like that under those rules. It'd make the game seem very much like chess.

Here's how a good team might look:

Aerodactyl @ Life Orb
Nature and EV's neccesary to be outrun by Starmie and outrun Rotom-A, as well as OHKO Starmie and Rotom-A

-Earthquake
-Taunt
-Crunch
-Stealth Rock

Fast lead or attacker if you use Swampert as a lead. The moves are so because Rock Slide would be useless with this anyway. Focus Sash isn't used because I feel it might make Aerodactyl unbalanced as a revenge killer of both Starmie and Rotom-A. Taunt and Stealth Rock give Aerodactyl the ability to always set up rocks instead of Swampert if it leads, but it will always die in the process.

Swampert @ Leftovers
Natures and EV's neccesary to outrun Forretress and 2HKO Aerodactyl, and be OHKOd by Forretress Explosion and 2HKOd by Rotom-A Hidden Power Fighting
-Ice Beam
-Hidden Power Dark
-Stealth Rock
-Roar

Hidden Power to kill Shedinja and Rotom on the switch and Ice Beam to kill Aerodactyl. Enough defenses obviously to take no real damage from Shedinja and Aerodactyl.

Forretress @ Leftovers
Natures and EV's neccesary to wall Aerodactyl, Swampert, Starmie to an extent, and rival Forretress.

-Spikes
-Toxic Spikes
-Rapid Spin
-Explosion

Designed to come in on the threats mentioned above and try to set up on them. Has enough special defense to whether Starmie for a few turns but be completely countered by the ghosts.

Starmie @ Choice Specs
EVs and Nature to outrun Aerodactyl, but be OHKOd by Aerodactyl Crunch, Forretress Explosion

-Surf
-Rapid Spin
-Recover
-Hidden Power Fire

Can deal huge damage to most switch ins with Surf. Outruns everything, but becomes essentially useless if it is forced to use Rapid Spin or Recover. Hidden Power Fire OHKOs Forretress before it can Explode but makes Starmie vulnerable to threats like Swampert, Aerodactyl, and Rotom.

Rotom-H @ Leftovers
EVs and nature neccesary to outrun everything but Aerodactyl and Starmie and 2HKO Swampert with Hidden Power Fighting; also, OHKO itself with Overheat

-Agility
-Overheat
-Hidden Power Fighting
-Substitute

Set-up sweeper. Overheat to kill Forretress and Shedinja, Substitute and Agility to set up, Hidden Power Fighting to 2HKO Aerodactyl and Swampert. Overheat over HP Fire or something because being forced to use Overheat more or less ruins Rotom's chances of sweeping after it is used.

Shedinja @ Life Orb or Muscle Band
EVs and nature neccesary to OHKO itself, Rotom, 2 or 3HKO Starmie, Forretress, and Aerodactyl

-X Scissor
-Hidden Power Fire
-Night Slash
-Agility

The queen of the game, being able to set up on the many pokes who can't threaten it and then attempting to sweep. It is stopped only by Swampert on a switch and can only be revenged killed by Starmie or Aerodactyl if it has an agility. Otherwise it is killed by Rotom with Overheat.
 
MeGaBiTe said:
Here's an idea.

What if, in the beginning of the turn, if both players have the same Pokemon out they are both forced to switch. This would negate speed ties as if you just try to switch in the same Pokemon to force the switch you're automatically putting yourself at a disadvantage because you'll get hit. Also, if two of the same Pokemon are the last Pokemon on their player's respective teams, then the match is a draw.
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That's fine, unless SR is in play, esp. if only one side has SR up. Then you could abuse that rule to no end.

Plus, what if you're down to your last two pokes, your opponent knows this, and has the perfect counter for that poke? They could force you to switch into a really unfavorable matchup.
 
I recently played a mirror match vs. stallion for the tournament of thieves (as we both jacked the same team). It was really amusing and one of the more exciting matches i've played. This was mainly due to the fact it takes precition to a higher level (altough hax is still a pain, like said match has proven). Your also playing pokemon with a totally different mindset, as you know what the opponnents options will be and you work towards that instead of what you think his opponents might be. Concepts like lures and surprises are not possible.

I think this both adds to the charm of mirror matches, aswell as it detracts to it. One integral part of competitive pokemon is gone: teambuilding and outsmarting your opponent before the match really begins. What makes this postively surprising is the fact its more so about prediction then a sound gameplan. You can almost throw premade strategies aside and see where you'll end, because your almost certainly going to have to improvise.

On the note of what might be more interesting is the thing of same pokemon mirror matches. This way you'll still maintain the element of surprise (6x arceus can still be one completely weird experience. Same for 6x mew or even 6x spinda). This will still give the edge of surprise as long as the pokemon you play with has a huge movepool and your capable of making 6 distinct movesets.
 
Antar said:
That's fine, unless SR is in play, esp. if only one side has SR up. Then you could abuse that rule to no end.

Plus, what if you're down to your last two pokes, your opponent knows this, and has the perfect counter for that poke? They could force you to switch into a really unfavorable matchup.
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That's true. There probably is no way to reduce the amount of hax to that found in regular battling, but it's still a very interesting idea in general imo.
 
One way to account for speed ties would be this:

Two games are played in each match. In the first game, one player uses an imperfect IV for each of his or her pokemon, putting them down at least one speed point (this would have to be worked out such that A) it would not mess with any Hidden Powers and B) it would not make it such that a Pokemon no longer outspeeds something that it should outspeed, merely it no longer ties with the same Pokemon on the opposing team). The second game, those players switch so that the other player is using the "slower" team.
 
What happens when player A wins the first match and player B wins the second match? You could have a third match where they speed tie, but then you're right back to square one. I think speed ties are just going to have to be a big part of this, one way or another.

I really don't think that any Pokemon can be the best counter for itself. Sure RestTalk Gyarados with Stone Edge can beat DD Gyarados without Stone Edge, but a Pokemon can't counter itself when they have the same set. A counter has to be able to switch in and immediately be threatening to the opponent, and you can't threaten an opponent any more than they threaten you when you're using the same moves. Say two Crocune's face each other, all either of them can do is set up six Calm Minds and spam Surfs until one gets a critical hit. The other part of it is that the Pokemon actually has to switch in, which means it would almost always be at a lower HP than the opponent and thus is at a disadvantage. The only way I can see it switching in and having an advantage, is with something that has Volt/Water Absorb.
 
what about something like this?

Smeargle @ Macho Brace
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Atk/4 Def/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Trick
- Endeavor
- Ice Shard
- Taunt

Smeargle @ Choice Band
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 4 HP/252 Spd/252 SAtk
Timid nature (+Spd, -Atk)
- Trick
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Surf

Smeargle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP/252 Atk/4 SDef
Brave nature (+Atk, -Spd)
- Trick
- Trick Room
- Curse
- Gyro Ball

Smeargle @ Choice Specs
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 Spd
Jolly nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Trick
- Aqua Jet
- Ice Punch
- Thunderpunch

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 216 HP/196 Def/96 SDef
Calm nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Trick
- Rest
- Toxic
- Roar

Smeargle @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk/252 SAtk
Naughty nature (+Atk, -SDef)
- Trick
- Iron Head
- Air Slash
- U-turn

Each smeargle wants a different item than it has. Plus you dont know which smeargle the opponent has out and thus what item they are using.
 
wildfire393 said:
One way to account for speed ties would be this:

Two games are played in each match. In the first game, one player uses an imperfect IV for each of his or her pokemon, putting them down at least one speed point (this would have to be worked out such that A) it would not mess with any Hidden Powers and B) it would not make it such that a Pokemon no longer outspeeds something that it should outspeed, merely it no longer ties with the same Pokemon on the opposing team). The second game, those players switch so that the other player is using the "slower" team.
Click to expand...

Better to monkey with EVs than IVs, IMO.

I think the trick to this is to not allow players to design their own sets, but rather limit them to a library of sets such that, as we mentioned, the rock-paper-scissors dynamic discourages players from having the same poke out at once.
 
The one problem I have with those Smeargles is that they won't be doing much damage to each other, since Smeargle has lackluster attack. Something along those lines could be used to increase the amount of prediction a player has to do, though.
 
Yeah, I guess you're right. Max Attack Adamant CB Smeargle nearly always 2HKOs max/max+ Smeargle with Return when SR is up.
 
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