Mencetran

[Perfection]

I have a Question...

Couldn't Heatran also work well with Dragonite/Salamence?



Special Version-

Salamence/Dragonite:
@ Heat Rock/Leftovers

Roost OR WISH
Sunny Day
Dragon Pulse/ Draco Meteor
Fire Blast
------------------


Mixed Version:

Salamence-

@ Heat Rock/Leftovers

Roost/Wish
Sunny Day
Dragon Claw
Fire Blast/Fire Fang (Although FF seems Pointless after the difference in Base Power with Sunny Day, as it is literally almost 2x as strong)
----------------------------------


Mixed Version:

Dragonite-

@Heat Rock/Leftovers

Roost
Sunny Day
Dragon Claw
Fire Blast/Fire Punch/Focus Punch



Pluses of Salamence/Dragonite over Tangrowth-

Roost > Synthesis:

-Roost isn't affected by Weather changes (switched in Tyranitar/Hippowdon/Abamasnow)

- Roost reduces the Ice Weakness from 4x to 2x (the main reason people may be afraid of using these Dragons), so Mence/Nite lose one of their disadvantages over Tangrowth.

-Roost removes Rock weakness temporarily only giving them 2 Weaknesses total (Ice/Dragon)

-Has more PP than Synthesis.

-Salamence is pretty fast and can Roost before taking Ice/Rock hits fairly often (and most Rock types are slow).



Sunny Day on Salamence/Dragonite > Tangrowth -

- Boosts both Dragonite/Salamence's Fire Blast as well as Heatran.

-Salamence has the same Special Attack as Tangrowth, so it will prove to be just as Strong as a Tangrowth's Grass Knot. Dragonite's Special Attack, isn't too far behind

- 1/2 Water Attacks over Heatran, and gives a 4x resistance to water at a faster speed, as Tangrowth is very slow the turn it uses Sunny Day.

- Since Salamence/Dragonite are both fairly fast, they don't need the Chlorophyll boost to outspeed alot of pokemon, and wont be too bothered if a weather changer switches in (like Tangrowth may be if Abamasnow switches into it's Grass Knot, resisting it, and 1hkoing it with Blizzard), while Salamence/Dragonite can simply Fire Blast it. (HP Fire isn't listed as a move Tangrowth uses in the HeatTran thread, so it'll have a hard time countering it as easily, as Abamasnow can sometimes even outspeed it, if Tangrowth tries to stay in and HP Rock it).

-Sunny Day allows Salamence/Dragonite to recieve a Psuedo STAB, and helps Salamence/Dragonite get the "Fire-Dragon" attack combo with very high Base Attack Power for both moves, allowing them to have an easier time to sweep, and if need be, stay in longer (as pnly other Heatran resists the combo).



Dragonite/Salamence's Typing > Tangrowth:

-Salamence/Dragonite provide the same resistances as Tangrowth does for Heatran, EVEN BETTER: Immune to Ground/Resistant to Fighting/Resistant to Water. Tangrowth only has Resistance to Ground, and Water, and does Not resist Fighting.

- And lets face it, Heatran resists Salamences' weaknesses: Ice/Dragon, and takes neutral from Rock (but factor in Intimidate). Besides that, both pokemon can use Roost when wanting to remove their Rock weakness, and reduce their Ice Weakness.

-Salamence/Dragonite only have 3 weaknesses (Dragon/Ice/Rock) rather than 5 like Tangrowth (Bug/Fire/Ice/Flying/Poison). So that means Heatran doesn't have to switch in as much, and will overall take less Damage.

-Salamence/Dragonite have more resistances in general: Bug 2x, Grass 4x, Water 2x, Ground Immune, Fighting 2x, Fire 2x, etc. This means that if they predict you had a Tangrowth on your team, and they try and surprise you with a Mega Horn (they switch in Heracross as a revenge kill to get Heatran, and they predict you will switch to Tangrowth to take a Close Combat, but they try and surprise you with Megahorn on your switch) , you can come in with Salamence/Dragonite and resist it, not to mention Salamene's Intimidate, which brings us to the next Section... Traits:



Dragonite/Salamence Traits > Tangrowth

Salamence- Intimidate activates on the switch, which works pretty well when switch Salamence on a physical Fighting move like Close Combat, which is not only resisted, but immediately loses 25% of its power.

Dragonite- May not have Intimidate, but it does get pretty good Defenses/HP to make up for it. *Additionally Inner Focus prevents annoying Scarf Togekiss's Air Slash from flinching Dragonite, and various pokemon's Fake-out's from flinching Dragonite, which still serves a semi-decent purpose.

BOTH- Both of Dragonite/Salamence's traits are unnaffected/unreliant on the weather, and can be used without weather dependency.



Dragon moves > Tangrowth's filler 4th slot:

-Dragon Pulse also subsitutes the need for Hp Ice (except for Gliscor), as 135 Base (After STAB) is 270 Base Power when super-effective vs other Dragons, only 10 less than a 4x Super Effective HP Ice.

-As Previously stated, has a fairly high Base Power, and works off the aforementioned "Dragon-Fire" combo, only resisted by other Heatran.

-Tangrowth is either stuck with HP Ice/Rock/Knock Off/Sleep Powder. The first 2 being inferior choices (Dragon Pulse is almost as strong as they are when they are 2x effective anyways, with only 5 less Base Power). Knock off is only useful in the right situation (If you Knock off Leftovers, its not that big of a deal, especially for pokemon who also have heal moves ie: Blissey/Vaporeon)

-Sleep Powder has limited use in Sleep Clause, leaving Tangrowth with only 1 Attacking Slot.

-Tangrowth's Stab is resisted by MANY types, whereas Dragon Pulse is only resisted by 1 (Steel), *and Steel types are small in number, and handled by Fire Blast (except Empoleon/Heatran).
-
In addition, Salamence gets the option of Wish, which especially comes in handy when your Heatran is holding Life Orb.


Dragonite also has a Nice Movepool if you want to substitute lets say Fire Blast with Focus Punch and turn the Mixed Set into a Physical Set. (If you can predict a Blissey/T-tar switch-in for example)

**********************************************************
I am not good with calculations as I don't have a program to do the math, so if need be, someone can offer them, HOWEVER.

This is beyond finding the proper EVS/Nature, this is a question of who does it better based on Typing/Ability/Moveset...

Some people will say "Well Tangrowth has better Defenses", but remember Salamence has Intimidate, and doesn't need as much speed EVs to reach the same Speed as Chlorophyll Tangrowth (so more Evs can go into HP/Def), and with Salamence, you have a better movepool, unless you just love Sleep Powder.

And although he doesn't lure Fire Attacks, he can still provide ample support for Heatran, and if they have a Heatran, he can make a Decent switch as he resists Fire Blast, is immune to Land Power, so if your Heatran is out, and they send out a Heatran, you can have a much safer time switching in Salamence than Tangrowth (They could surprise you with a Sunny Day Boosted Fire Blast against Tangrowth, rather than a HP Ice or a Dragon Pulse on Salemence).

 

[darkie]

Since it seems like you'd be switching between the two a lot, I'd go for Draco Meteor on Salamence.

 

[Perfection]

Good point, I may as well add that in. I figured since Tangrowth didn't have Leaf Storm, Salamence didn't need Draco Meteor, but u make a good point.

I also added in a Mixed version as well for both Dragonite and Salamence, plus Salamence/Dragonite both have one of the best Attack Stats in the game.

 

[Slice n Dice]

The reason this "combo" isn't used a defensive strategy is because the incredibly common CBtar rips it to shreds.

 

[Perfection]

Couldn't a CB/Life Orb Tar Switch in on Tangrowth (when it predicts a move other than Grass Knot or perhaps even potentially switch in on a Grass knot with it's Sp. Def boost, & specific EV spread), to use Ice Beam for a Quick 2hko?

Same can be said for Abamasnow switch-ins for Tangrowth who gets obliterated by Blizzard as Tangrowth is outsped by Abamasnow.
As for Salamence/Dragonite, unless they are outspeed by a Scarf-Snow, they will not only be able to outspeed their Abamasnow foes, but they can simply use Fire Blast for the 1HKO.

It just depends which Weather changer you are facing...

Also, I updated the first post with more Sections and information to specify the difference between the Dragons vs the Tangrowth.

I also put a potential Focus Punch option on the Dragonite Physical Move-set, it kills Weavile/Blissey/TYRANITAR switch-ins.

 

[Ouro]

Your format makes it hard to read and understand what you are trying to say.

 

[Perfection]

Ok, adjusted the spacing to make it more legible.

Any comments or suggestions on the actual sets themselves?

Any opinions agreeing/disputing the Dragon's Use over Tangrowth?

I guess I can Start:

Do we believe Salamence's Intimidate/Speed (with Roost), can make up for its weaker Defense when compared to Tangrowth?

*Note, Speed also plays a role in the choice of EV Spread/Nature. (Less Evs are needed to reach a specific target Speed, so both EVs and the Nature can be devoted to something else).

 

[Ouro]

Besides working in combination to cover their weaknesses neither Pokemon benefits of each other in anyway. Sunny Day is not enough to guarantee this. Salamence is better off attacking Pokemon straight up with one of its various sets. Unfortunately the Sunny Day combination of Heatran and Salamence uses up too many of Salamences slots. Salamence has better things to do than play with weather. This strategy is much more suited for Pokemon who have less options available to them.

 

[Perfection]

Just b/c it has better options, doesn't mean it can't do a better job than a pokemon whom doesn't have as many options. I agree Salamence can do more, but if people feel that there are some weaknesses to the GrowthTran Strategy and they want to keep the same strategy in mind but change a few things then I am just providing them with a different option.

Additionally, having a Sal w/ this Moveset would still surprise people and catch them off guard, whereas most people know if you have Tangrowth, you have Heatran.

And isn't that why the Gyarados+Electivire combination lost popularity? Because it became too predictable? *It lost popularity because it became too popular.*

With this as a lead, many people will assume its one of the standard movesets, and not prepare accordingly (albeit, many people don't know what to expect with Salamence, as he has various useful move sets).

Plus, Salamence gets somethings Tangrowth doesn't: Wish/Intimidate/etc.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

You probably should have just asked this in the Growth/Tran thread that is already on the first page, and not made a topic about it. minimods D:

Sure Salamence + Heatran can work, but Tangrowth actually benefits from Sunny Day with its trait, gets Sleep Powder to set it up for free, and scares Tyranitar away with its powerful Grass STAB to make sure Sandstream doesn't interrupt this.

Salamence/Dragonite just have too many moves that are more useful than Sunny Day to warrant this being anything more than a gimmick. They could work, but using it would just be a waste of their potential for a chance at supporting a teammate (which almost always isn't worth it).

 

[Perfection]

Tangrowth gets speed from sunny day, but boosts a move that is super effective vs it.

Salamence doesn't need the Chlorophyll to be fast, and although it doesn't have Sleep Powder, it does gets Wish and Intimidate, in addition, it can take Fighting moves and Earth moves with ease, especially with Intimidate.

And Tangrowth cannot counter ScarfHeracross (he can predict your switch from Heatran to Tangrowth and use Megahorn) which can counter a ScarfHeatran, while Intimidate Fire Blast Salamence can take Stone Edge with the right EVs in the same situation.

 

[dekzeh]

Boosting a move that is supper effective vs it also helps Heatran to get a free Flash Fire boost you know?

Of course the Dragon poke + Steel poke combo works. It works since ADV generation, we don't need more topic about this.

 

[Perfection]

Its not so much the Dragon+Steel, it's the Speed Difference, the Trait Difference (ie: a lead Salamence facing a lead Weavile can switch to Heatran to take an Ice Punch even better than Tangrowth because of Intimidate), etc.

Plus they both get a boost under Sunny Day (by both using Fire Blast), and Salamence's movepool- Heatran can free up it's Hp Ice/Dragon Pulse requirement because of Salamence's Dragon Pulse.

Did I mention the surprise factor?

 

[Shinryu]

I think one of the reasons GrowthTran would work is because the two can operate with each other nicely. Tangrowth is still an amazing physical wall, and sets up Heatran better since Tangrowth also benefits from Sunny Day far more than Salamence. Salamence for that matter is meant to be a sweeper, not usually to be setting up Wish or Sunny Day. It also leaves you in need of something to absorb physical attacks.

 

[Perfection]

What about Intimidate, and put Evs in HP/Defenses? Not to mention Roost going before many opponents to heal before damaged again, rather than after when comparing the speed set for Tangrowth (on the speed EV spread only set to outspeed base nuetral 90s)

I still believe Tangrowth has far too many weaknesses (5 is quite alot), and many less resistances)

 

[RaikouLover]

The whole point of growthtran is flash fire. Tangrowth draws out the fire fang / blast / flamethrower from physical sweepers and powers up heatran. Period. Nothing will be hitting Salamence with a fire move

 

[sa17dk]

Instead of trying to make them "work" together by giving Mence things like Sunny Day and Roost, just USE them together.

What I mean is dont try to purposely have them support each other, because if you do that with a pokemon as diverse as Mence, you lose out on his offensive potential. Instead just use them as switches for each other.

Mence doesnt need to use Sunny Day for Heatran to come in and take an IB for him.