UU Mantine

HotFuzzBall

HotFuzzBall

fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
is an Artist Alumnus
mantine.gif


QC: Ark / pizza mosquito desu / Eyan
GP: The Dutch Plumberjack

[OVERVIEW]

* The combination of Mantine's typing, amazing natural special bulk, and access to reliable recovery through Roost allows it to check the tier's top threats such as Keldeo and Hippowdon. These characteristics combined with Mantine's access to Defog allow it to act as a decent entry hazard remover.
* Due to Mantine's weakness to Stealth Rock, it is often outclassed by other Water-type entry hazard removers such as Tentacruel and Empoleon that do not share the same weakness.
* While Mantine's typing allows it to deal with top-tier threats such as Cobalion, Scizor, and Keldeo, the prevalence of threats such as Mega Aerodactyl and Raikou makes it difficult for Mantine to do its job due to its weakness to Stealth Rock and a 4x weakness to Electric.
* Mantine's low Defense stat means powerful physical attackers such as Bisharp, Mega Aerodactyl, and Mega Sharpedo can severely weaken Mantine.
* Due to Mantine's passive nature, it often drains momentum.

[SET]
name: Bulky Support
move 1: Scald
move 2: Roost
move 3: Haze / Toxic / Air Slash
move 4: Defog / Haze
item: Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* Scald is essential for its STAB chip damage as well as the 30% chance of burn.
* Roost is crucial, since it provides Mantine with a form of reliable recovery.
* Haze can be used to prevent Mantine from being used as setup bait while also allowing it to beat setup sweepers such as Scizor.
* Toxic is an alternative that can be used to place bulkier Pokemon such as Swampert, Mandibuzz, and Slowbro or Pokemon that don't mind Scald such as Latias, Volcanion, and Gastrodon on a timer.
* Air Slash can used which allows Mantine to deal with Grass-types such as Amoonguss and Celebi and Fighting-types that do not care for Scald or its burns such as Toxicroak, Heracross, and Conkeldurr.
* Defog is used to remove entry hazards for the team.

Set Details
========
* The EV spread along with a Bold nature allows Mantine to tank physical hits such as a +2 All Out Pummeling from Cobalion and Sacred Fire from Entei after Stealth Rock.
* Alternatively, a 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD EV spread alongside a Calm nature helps efficiently maximize Mantine's all-around bulk, allowing it to take special hits from strong special attackers such as Volcanion and Gengar while still having some physical bulk leftover to survive hits from physical attackers such as Scizor and Cobalion.
* Water Absorb is the ability of choice due to how useful a Water-type immunity is in a tier full of Water-types.
* Leftovers provides Mantine with passive recovery, which helps extend its longevity.

Usage Tips
========

* Mantine is able to fit on stall teams due to its ability to handle the tier's special and physical attackers such as Cobalion, Entei, and Volcanion well, while being able to still act as an entry hazard remover.
* Due to its typing, Mantine is able to switch into the tier's Water-, Fire-, and Ground-types such as Suicune, Infernape, and Hippowdon well.
* Mantine can also take advantage of the aforementioned Pokemon to Defog entry hazards away.
* Remember that Mantine can afford to switch in on anticipated Scalds due to Water Absorb.
* Due to Mantine's weakness to Stealth Rock, it is important to keep it as healthy as possible with Roost so it will be able to continue sponging hits or Defog entry hazards away.
* Try to avoid status conditions, since they limit Mantine's longevity.
* Scald is the most commonly used move Mantine will use, since it discourages physical attackers and Pokemon reliant on Leftovers such as Swampert, Bisharp, and Klefki from switching in. However, due to the nerf to the burn status, Toxic should also be considered over Scald on anticipated switches to Pokemon that do not mind burns such as Latias and Slowbro.

Team Options
========

* Fire-types such as Volcanion, Chandelure, and Infernape can take advantage of Grass-type switch ins, such as Celebi, Roserade, and Amoonguss, while Mantine can check Ground- and Water-types such as Swampert and Hippowdon that threaten them.
* Grass-types such as Decidueye and Amoonguss benefit from Mantine's ability to check the aforementioned Fire-types.
* Steel-types such as Scizor, Bisharp, and Cobalion can take advantage of the aforementioned Grass-types to set up, while Mantine is able to take any incoming Fire- or Ground-type attack.
* Ground-types such as Gliscor, Zygarde-10%, and Nidoqueen are able to cover Mantine's only weaknesses to Electric-types such as Raikou and Magneton and Rock-types such as Mega Aerodactyl.
* Pokemon that dislike entry hazard stacking such as Kyurem, Raikou, and Chandelure appreciate having entry hazards removed by Mantine.
* Physical attackers such as Zygarde-10%, Scizor, and Krookodile appreciate having Mantine to absorb any incoming Scalds.
* Clerics such as Blissey and Clefable can help remove status conditions for Mantine through Heal Bell.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

* Mirror Coat can be used to surprise Hidden Power Electric variants of Keldeo or Volcanion to knock them out.
* Signal Beam is used to lure in Celebi that can use Mantine as setup bait.
* Ice Beam can be used instead, allowing Mantine to deal with stallbreaker Gliscor, Dragon-types such as Hydreigon and Latias, and Grass-types such as Amoonguss and Celebi.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Electric-types**: Raikou, Rotom-C, and Magneton all threaten Mantine with strong Electric-type STAB while also not minding the burn from Scald. Pokemon such as Latias, Infernape, and Starmie may carry Electric-type coverage that can also threaten Mantine.

**Grass-types**: Celebi, Amoonguss, and Roserade can wall non-Air Slash variants of Mantine while either being immune to or not minding Toxic. Tsareena and Decidueye must be careful of switching into Scald due to the threat of a burn, though.

**Rock-types**: While Rock-types such as Mega Aerodactyl and Gigalith are unable to switch in due to Scald, they are still able to threaten Mantine with Rock-type STAB attacks. Pokemon such as Krookodile and Cobalion may carry Rock-type coverage through Stone Edge that Mantine must be wary about.

**Setup Users**: If Mantine is not running Haze, set up users such as Reuniclus, Togekiss, and Toxicroak can take advantage of a Mantine to boost up due to its passive nature. Latias must be mindful of Toxic while physically offensive set up users such as Bisharp and Mega Absol must be careful of a Scald burn.

**Bulky Pokemon**: Pokemon such as Blissey and Clefable do not mind the damage from Scald and can shrug of Toxic due to Heal Bell or Magic Guard.

**Passive Damage**: Passive damage from Stealth Rock and status conditions can slowly wear down Mantine, which will limit how often it can switch in to either remove entry hazards or sponge a hit.

**Taunt**: Taunt users such as Mandibuzz and Mew can completely shut down Mantine due to its reliance on its supportive moves.
 
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Alright, so here goes:

I wouldn't say it's able to "sponge any incoming hits" as its physical defense is still mediocre. Also, you mention that Mantine is able to support the team with its movepool, and then mention its movepool again in the next bullet point. You mention its bulk again thereafter, and go in-depth on the kinds of Pokemon it checks. In general, the overview is more thorough than it should be, and I'd like you to cut it down to the relevant things. An example of how you could shorten a few of your points into one would be

  • Mantine's typing, good special bulk, and access to roost allow it to check many pokemon such as Keldeo and Gliscor. However, it also comes with a weakness to stealth rock and a crippling electric weakness.

Please be brief about this. You will be going in-depth later on in the analysis so there is no need to list all of its moves, checks and counters in the overview.

Slash Haze on the third moveslot, and put it before Air Slash. Haze and Defog can be run on the same set. It does more than just prevent Mantine from being set-up fodder; Mantine can actually beat quite a few set-up sweepers and wallbreakers due to its access to Haze.

Also, the spread that aim "created" should in my opinion be the main spread for the reasons listed in Eyan's post. I fail to see what the extra physical bulk gains you, and the special bulk gains you some neat advantages such as:

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 104+ SpD Mantine: 129-152 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


248 HP do not reach a leftovers number, as 373 is nowhere close to being divisible by 16. It just gives you an odd hp number so you can switch into Stealth Rock an additional time.

You don't switch Mantine into an attacker to "recover up with roost", that is a necessary evil. Just say that it can switch into these types of Pokemon, and give examples of Pokemon it can switch into. Say that you can defog on Pokemon that you wall separately. Don't say to "use Roost on anticipated switches" after telling people to keep Mantine as healthy as possible - of course you will Roost if you need to. Just recommend to use Toxic if they expect a Pokemon like Latias that would apprecite a burn.

I don't think it's necessary to state what kind of teams to not use Mantine on in Team Options. Give an example for Fire-types that pair well with Mantine. Give examples of Grass-types that synergize well with Mantine. Change the examples of Pokemon that appreciate defog, as Mega Aerodactyl and Volcanion encourage type stacking in a bad way. Remove Mega Sharpedo from Pokemon that want Scalds absorbed, as you recommended Mantine for use on balance and semi-stall. Sharpedo does not fit on those kinds of teams, and typically does not want to switch out once it's in. It's also usually not scald that threatens it in these kinds of scenarios. Mention Ground-types as partners; they absorb both Electric- and Rock-type attacks, which are Mantine's only weaknesses. I'm not sure if Fighting-types would be worth a mention, as not all of them are good rock resists and none of them want to switch into the primary Stone Edge user in the tier, Mega Aerodactyl, but I'll leave that up to your discretion. They do make for decent Knock Off absorbers, though.

I do not think Tailwind is worth a mention on OO as it does not generally benefit the kind of teams that Mantine fits on. Substitute + Toxic sets are also generally not worth using in UU so I don't think they warrant a mention, either.

In Checks and Counters, Togekiss does not need to be mindful of Toxic as the stallbreaker and support variants all run Heal Bell. "Set-up users" in general is a weird point for a Pokemon that runs a great haze set, and Pokemon like Bisharp can surely force it out to set-up, but also risk the opponent staying in and scaldburning them. You also list Scizor, which is specifically countered by the proposed spread. Mantine will also not "switch in to recover up", it will try to stay healthy before it switches out. Under Taunt users, you mention Gliscor, and while its Taunt + Toxic Stallbreaker set does take care of Mantine, it has a hard time switching in. Just use Mandibuzz and Mew as examples, they suffice. Mention Rock-types as checks, and common walls that do not fear Mantine's toxic such as Blissey.

This is all from me for now. There is definitely more, but once you have implemented this, this should be qc 1/3.

Edit: I see you did not implement everything correctly, and even added some unnecessary or new stuff. As such, I will be writing up a new post to QC this again.
 
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Alright, since I see you edited this, time for round 2:

Overview: Mantine does not check Gliscor. Gliscor just does not want to necessarily switch in on it. Remove that. I also don't think you should call Electric or Rock uncommon types. While technically true we have few mons featuring these typings in the tier, Mega Aerodcatyl and Raikou are amongst the most used Pokemon. Mentioning that it is weak to rock also means it is weak to Stealth Rock, so mentioning its Stealth Rock weakness is redundant. Its typing does not cause "Type-stacking" within the tier; what I told you was that having Mega Aerodactyl and Volcanion listed as Team Options was a bad idea because having Mantine on the team with either of them causes Type-stacking.

Set: Please also slash Haze after Defog. It can be slashed on both, the third and the fourth moveslot. You can run Haze with Defog, but you can also run Toxic with Haze if you run a stall build with Mantine and have another Rapid Spin user or Defogger. Also, Raikou does not enjoy switching into scald, so please remove that mention there. Haze does more than just prevent Mantine from being set-up bait, as it lets it beat Pokemon like Scizor reliably.

Set Details: Mention why this specific spread is used; Eyan's post that I linked earlier details most of it, and I gave you an example of what the special bulk helps with.

Usage Tips: In the part mentioning Toxic, remove the mentions of Togekiss and Starmie, and instead add something like Slowbro as a target. Togekiss runs Heal Bell commonly, and Starmie often has Natural Cure, so you do not gain much by toxicing these two.

Other Options: Do not mention Charti Berry. Scald is a 2HKO on Mega Aerodactyl even after Stealth Rock, and you are essentially relying on a 30% scaldburn to beat it. However, you could add Ice Beam as it beats Stallbreaker Gliscor.

This will still only be qc 1/3 after you have implemented these changes. If you want to add something like you did with Charti Berry this time, please talk to a QC member first.
 
Hi,

It looks like some of the QC checks from GrilledClawitzer haven't been implemented yet. I'm taking this out of QC 1/3 until they are. If you have any questions or concerns about implementing some of the QC checks, please post them here or PM dod or myself.

Once GC gives the go-ahead, you can change this back to 1/3. Thanks.
 
Mantine has a weakness to Stealth Rock and a 4x weakness to Electric-type attacks.

u shud prob state why this is actually a bad thing - a defogger weak to rocks is pretty bad for it and gives it competition with stuff like tenta and empo, and i know the elec thing is obvious but u shud prob expand it to say that its defensive typing as a whole is somewhat of a double-edged sword, its great with dealing wit mons like keldeo, cobal, and zor, but maero / raik is super annoying for it.

* Due to Mantine's passive nature, it is often sucks momentum.

fix the wording on that one D :

mention that air slash is also for fighting-types like conkeldurr and toxicroak

after you do that this is fine. qc 2/3
 
Looks fine for the most part. Just a few things. I'd add to the first point of the overview that it still acts as a decent Defogger, even if it can be outclassed, since that's pretty much the reason for using it, whereas the checking of threats just comes with it. When mentioning Fighting-types that Air Slash deals with, I'd specifically mention that it hits Fighting-types that Scald can't deal with, namely Guts (be more specific here imo since band iron fist is still a set) Conkeldurr and Toxicroak. You could honestly condense the first 3 points of the set details into one point: The given EV spread with a Calm nature lets it [insert specific hits it can take, both special and physical]. Remove Whimsicott from team options. It still has a niche, but it's not something we'd want to outright advocate, which listing it would do.

Really just polishing things up. Look through and fix GP stuff on your own before posting it in the queue imo.

We really should be qcing more, QC 3/3
 
remove add / fix (comments); (AC=add comma; RC=remove comma; SC=semicolon)
GP 1/1
[OVERVIEW]

* The combination of Mantine's typing, amazing natural special bulk, and access to reliable recovery through Roost allows it to check the tier's top threats such as Keldeo and Hippowdon. These characteristics combined with Mantine's access to Defog allows allow it to act as a decent entry hazard remover.
* Mantine has a weakness to Stealth Rock and a 4x weakness to Electric-type attacks. Due to Mantine's weakness to Stealth Rock, it is often outclassed by other Water-type entry hazard removers such as Tentacruel and Empoleon that do not share the same weakness.
* While Mantine's typing allows it to deal with top-tier threats such as Cobalion, Scizor, and Keldeo, the commonality prevalence of threats such as Mega Aerodactyl and Raikou make makes it difficult for Mantine to do its job due to its weakness to Rock and 4x weakness to Electric.
* Mantine's low physical Defense stat means powerful physical attackers such as Bisharp, Mega Aerodactyl, and Mega Sharpedo can severely weaken Mantine.
* Due to Mantine's passive nature, it often drains momentum.

[SET]
name: Bulky Support
move 1: Scald
move 2: Roost
move 3: Haze / Toxic / Air Slash
move 4: Defog / Haze
item: Leftovers
ability: Water Absorb
nature: Calm
evs: 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

* Scald is essential for its STAB chip damage as well as the 30% chance of burn.
* Roost is crucial, (AC) since it provides Mantine with a form of reliable recovery.
* Haze can be used to prevent Mantine from being used as set up setup bait while also allowing it to beat set up users setup sweepers such as Scizor.
* Toxic is an alternative that can be used to place bulkier Pokemon such as Swampert, Mandibuzz, and Slowbro or Pokemon that don't mind Scald such as Latias, Volcanion, and Gastrodon on a timer.
* Air Slash can used which allows Mantine to deal with Grass-types such as Amoonguss and Celebi and Fighting-types that do not care for Scald or its burns such as Toxicroak, Heracross, and Conkeldurr.
* Defog is used to remove entry hazards for the team.

Set Details
========

* The Ev EV spread alongside a Calm nature help helps efficiently maximize Mantine's physical and special all-around bulk, allowing it to take special hits from strong special attackers such as Volcanion (RC) and Gengar (RC) while still having some physical bulk to live survive hits from physical attackers such as Scizor.
* Water Absorb is the ability of choice due to how useful a Water-type immunity is in a tier full of Water-types.
* Leftovers provides Mantine with passive recovery, which helps extend its longevity.

Usage Tips
========

* Mantine is able to fit on balanced and semi-stall teams due to its ability to handle the tier's special attackers well.
* Due to its typing, Mantine is able to switch into the tier's Water-, Fire-, and Ground-types such as Suicune, Infernape, and Hippowdon well.
* Mantine can also take advantage of the aforementioned Pokemon to Defog entry hazards away.
* Remember that Mantine can afford to switch in on anticipated Scalds due to Water Absorb.
* Due to Mantine's weakness to Stealth Rock, it is important to keep it as healthy as possible with Roost so it will be able to continue sponging hits or Defog entry hazards away.
* Try to avoid status conditions, (AC) since it limits they limit Mantine's longevity, which coincides with (is compounded by?) its weakness to Stealth Rock.
* Scald is the most commonly used move Mantine will use, (AC) since it discourages physical attackers and Pokemon reliant on Leftovers such as Swampert, Bisharp, and Klefki from switching in. However, (AC) due to the nerf to the burn status, Toxic should also be considered over Scald on anticipated switches to Pokemon that do not mind burns such as Latias and Slowbro.

Team Options
========

* Fire-types such as Volcanion, Chandelure, and Infernape can take advantage of Grass-type switch-ins (AH) such as Celebi, Roserade, and Amoonguss, (AC) while Mantine can check Ground- and Water-types such as Swampert and Hippowdon that threaten them.
* Grass-types such as Decidueye and Amoonguss benefit from Mantine's ability to check the aforementioned Fire-types.
* Steel-types such as Scizor, Bisharp, and Cobalion can take advantage of the aforementioned Grass-types to set up, (AC) while Mantine is able to take any incoming Fire- or Ground-type attack.
* Ground-types such as Gliscor, Zygarde-10%, and Nidoqueen are able to check cover Mantine's only weaknesses to Electric-types such as Raikou and Magneton and Rock-types such as Mega Aerodactyl.
* Pokemon that dislike entry hazard stacking such as Kyurem, Raikou, and Chandelure appreciate having entry hazards removed by Mantine.
* Physical attackers such as Zygarde-10%, Scizor, and Krookodile appreciate having Mantine to absorb any incoming Scalds.
* Clerics such as Blissey and Clefable can help remove status conditions for Mantine through Heal Bell.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

* Mirror Coat can be used to surprise Hidden Power Electric variants of Keldeo or Volcanion to knock them out.
* Signal Beam is used to lure in Celebi that can use Mantine as set up setup bait.
* Ice Beam can be used instead, allowing Mantine to deal with stallbreaker Gliscor, Dragon-types such as Hydreigon and Latias, and Grass-types such as Amoonguss and Celebi.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Electric-types**: Raikou, Rotom-M, Rotom-C, and Magneton all threaten Mantine with strong Electric-type STAB while also not minding the burn from Scald. Pokemon such as Latias, Infernape, and Starmie may carry Electric-type coverage that can also threaten Mantine.

**Grass-types**: Celebi, Amoonguss, and Roserade can wall non-Air Slash variants of Mantine while either being immune to or not minding Toxic. Tsareena and Decidueye must be careful of switching into Scald due to the threat of a burn, though.

**Rock-types**: While Rock-types such as Mega Aerodactyl are unable to switch in due to Scald, they are still able to threaten Mantine with Rock-type STAB attacks. Pokemon such as Krookodile and Cobalion may carry Rock-type coverage through Stone Edge that Mantine must be wary about.

**Set-Up Setup Users**: If Mantine is not running Haze, set up users such as Reuniclus, Togekiss, and Toxicroak can take advantage of a Mantine to boost up due to its passive nature. Latias must be mindful of Toxic while physically offensive set up users such as Bisharp and Mega Absol must be careful of a Scald burn.

**Bulky Pokemon**: Pokemon such as Blissey and Clefable do not mind the damage from Scald and can shrug of Toxic due to Heal Bell or Magic Guard.

**Passive Damage**: Passive damage from Stealth Rock and status conditions can slowly wear down Mantine, which will limit how often it can switch in to either remove entry hazards or sponge a hit.

**Taunt**: Taunt users such as Mandibuzz and Mew can completely shut down Mantine due to its reliance on its supportive moves.
 
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Sorry for commenting again but before this gets uploaded, we may as well touch this up once more. I talked this through with dodmen.

The spread should probably be changed to 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD with a Bold nature. When I first suggested the analysis spread, me and a few others had been using it on Mantine balance teams. Those kinds of teams have fallen out of favor, and are not seen regularly anymore. Rather, Mantine is seen on full stall, where a fully physically defensive spread helps Mantine take a +2 All-Out Pummelling from Cobalion and also allows it to switch into Entei's Sacred Fire without fear after Stealth Rock, and takes on physical attackers better in general. The 252 HP / 156 Def / 100 SpD Calm spread should still be mentioned in Set Details and explained, but the main spread should now be the physically defensive one.

That is all. Great work, HotFuzzBall!
 
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