Mamoswine Lead?

X-Codes

I've been looking for a faster-than-slow Stealth Rocker (a rare thing indeed) to lead a team I'm putting together, so while scrolling down the Attackdex page on Serebii I came across Mamoswine.

Considered Setup-
Oblivious
Earthquake
Ice Shard
Stealth Rock
Protect

And, depending on ideas...
a) Adamant 252 Spd/252 Atk/6 Def w/ Expert Belt
b) Jolly 172 Spd/252 Atk/86 Def w/ Life Orb

Reading the analysis, I see that Mamoswine has a hard time switching in and that it's hard counters generally don't add Speed EVs (exception is Gyarados, but the Jolly stat setup I *think* outspeeds 252/neutral, assuming I did my math right). So I figure, why not lead him? That takes care of the switch-in issue and his hard counters almost never lead. Protect is to ease prediction and gather info about the opposing team, which is something else I want the lead 'mon to do.

After setting up SR and wreaking some Havoc, I can pull him out and keep him in reserve as a revenge-killer.

So, is my thinking good here? Or am I high on grass 'mons?
 
It sounds decent enough in theory, but Mamoswine has problems with a lot of common starters. (Hippowdon, Swampert, Salamence, Breloom, and Gengar among others)

Plus there's so much more it can do; you're really restricting its options. Stone Edge over Protect would help, but a CB or Curse set would probably be more effective.
 
If you want a starting Stealth Rocker, It would be better to go with Swampert.

My Mamoswine Lead has always been CB.
Snow Cloak
Adamant
~ Ice Shard
~ Earthquake
~ Stone Edge
~ Avalanche

Why waste all that godly attack power and overall starter killing power by setting up Stealth Rock? This thing 2HKOs Swampert with EQ for cripes sake.
 
the Lexx said:
It sounds decent enough in theory, but Mamoswine has problems with a lot of common starters. (Hippowdon, Swampert, Salamence, Breloom, and Gengar among others)

Plus there's so much more it can do; you're really restricting its options. Stone Edge over Protect would help, but a CB or Curse set would probably be more effective.
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Hippowdon isn't troublesome enough to keep Mamoswine from getting off SR and switching. Salamence is always OHKOed by Ice Shard in the first set and almost always OHKOed by the second, speed is irrelevant. Breloom is also out-speeded by either set but will probably sleep me after SR comes out (I don't think it's an OHKO with Ice Shard, but I may be wrong). Gengar depends on which Choice item it uses: Scarf won't kill Mamoswine first, but Specs might.

I know Mamoswine has 130 attack with a great physical movepool, but I don't care. I'm looking for Pokemon to fill Roles, not complementing types with CC movesets.
 
Hmm, pretty nice idea. I suppose it goes under the same philosophy as Metagross/Swampert setting up SR "It's durable enough to take a hit and beats a few other common leads, so put SR on it and lead with it!". Taking away Stone Edge does hurt Mamoswine's offensive ability quite a bit, though.

Also, Snow Cloak > Oblivious. Hail happens sometimes, attract happens never.
 
Fishin said:
Also, Snow Cloak > Oblivious. Hail happens sometimes, attract happens never.
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Quoted for truth. I've run into Stallrein (on a hail team) a few times, and thanks to alternating between naturally moving first with SE/EQ and using Avalanche (Neg. priority is FTW!!) I can hit past its subs, taking it out. After that, the rest of a hail team is demolished, often thanks to hax from my ability. Of course, I could always just bring in Ttar as a counter, but this thread is about Mamoswine (<3).

Mamo's not exactly a wall, but he IS bulky.

As for your actual sets:
Why are you trying to run a utility set with EB/LO? Sure, Ground/Ice is a decent combination, but Ice Shard with its BP blows except against dragons you need to OHKO and EQ is too predictable to ever hit something SE (making EB useless and LO a bit of a waste of HP). And Orb on the one you have defense EVs on?! That's an oxymoron! "Hi def EVs but kill myself"

I just thought of a somewhat specialized gimmicky set, but it'll work for what you want it to nonetheless.

Choice Scarf
Jolly
252attack/enough speed to outspeed adamant CShera/Rest in whatever (hp/def?)

EQ/Ice Fang/SE/SR

Right. Lead with it, SR (especially if you predict a switch because they're ground/ice weak; a lot of ground weaks are slower than 80 base (and WAY slower than 80 base w/scarf, but the opponent doesn't expect the scarf, shhh), most Mamo leads carry CB Ice Shard), then switch. Bring it in as a revenge killer later in the game. Yay, multipurpose. If you think they won't switch, go for a kill. They'd usually outspeed and OHKO or something, but weak to EQ/SE? (example: CB weavile brick break, though I'm too lazy to run damage calcs) Bring it back in later to SR, if you see the opportunity.

Lol, choice utility. I'm classic, aren't I?
 
Boa1891 said:
As for your actual sets:
Why are you trying to run a utility set with EB/LO? Sure, Ground/Ice is a decent combination, but Ice Shard with its BP blows except against dragons you need to OHKO and EQ is too predictable to ever hit something SE (making EB useless and LO a bit of a waste of HP). And Orb on the one you have defense EVs on?! That's an oxymoron! "Hi def EVs but kill myself"
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See!? Now you know why I wanted help!

I put EB/LO to OHKO 0/0 Dragons with Ice Shard. I don't want to lose Protect, but if the benefit outweighs the cost, then sure. On the other hand, maybe I could throw on an Occa Berry to counter Specsmence's Flamethrower and then hit him back with a couple Ice Shards (since surviving one is no longer a problem). I don't know of any other OHKO threats except CS Alakazam/Gengar, who both have such low physical defense and HP that they'd really need it to knock out Mamoswine.

I suppose the Def EV's shouldn't take up all the rest, rather that I should fine-tune my HP so to minimize Sandstorm/Life Orb damage (if I keep the Life Orb).

Anyway, I have this thing about putting SE and SR on the same 'mon. I dunno, just doesn't feel right to me, especially if it's supposed to be utility like this, when every move counts.

Boa's CS set is interesting, but I think I'd rather CB with it, and just aim to outspeed 252/neutral Gyarados instead of CS 252/neutral Hera. Even if I outspeed Hera, theres absolutely nothing that Mamoswine can do to it (SE and Ice Shard are both neutral hits, EQ isn't effective). Since all Heras that don't carry CS are CB Jolly ones, then outspeeding 252/neutral Hera is kindof a hollow victory.
 
The element of surprise does go a long way when prediction is such a big deal though.
I think it's a great set.
 
X-Codes said:
See!? Now you know why I wanted help!

I put EB/LO to OHKO 0/0 Dragons with Ice Shard. I don't want to lose Protect, but if the benefit outweighs the cost, then sure. On the other hand, maybe I could throw on an Occa Berry to counter Specsmence's Flamethrower and then hit him back with a couple Ice Shards (since surviving one is no longer a problem). I don't know of any other OHKO threats except CS Alakazam/Gengar, who both have such low physical defense and HP that they'd really need it to knock out Mamoswine.
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Well if 30% boosted Ice Shard OHKOs dragons, then CS Ice Fang will as well (even more powerful). Of course, this is something you'll be doing as revenge, coming in later, after the initial set-up. Of course, if you're fighting someone remotely intelligent they'll switch to an ice resist, so you might be better off with stone edge (hence it being on my set), especially if it'll KO anyway.

Anyway, I have this thing about putting SE and SR on the same 'mon. I dunno, just doesn't feel right to me, especially if it's supposed to be utility like this, when every move counts.
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That's the hidden beauty of my set; Rather than being support, it starts as support and turns into a revenge killer. With SR up, it's a lot easier to outspeed and OHKO Sala with Stone Edge, letting you be prepared for if the foe switches to an ice resist. On the other hand, you get more power from CS Ice Fang than from CB Ice Shard (40*1.5=60<65), which means you're basically guaranteed the ohko on any 4x weak dragon if they don't switch.

Boa's CS set is interesting, but I think I'd rather CB with it, and just aim to outspeed 252/neutral Gyarados instead of CS 252/neutral Hera. Even if I outspeed Hera, theres absolutely nothing that Mamoswine can do to it (SE and Ice Shard are both neutral hits, EQ isn't effective). Since all Heras that don't carry CS are CB Jolly ones, then outspeeding 252/neutral Hera is kindof a hollow victory.
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That's a choice, but I thought you were looking for a fast SR user. Sure, CB increases his regular attacking potency, but he's far more suited to be a revenge killer, especially with one of his moveslots already gone. Not to mention CB does nothing for SR but force him to switch afterwards, while CS and his base hp/def almost guarantee he gets the SR in (quick-attack moves have no shot to OHKO you, tbh).

As for other options... (be warned: these are gimmicks at best and not too practical)
If you wanna do that Occa Berry thing, perhaps consider Natural Gift (in stone edge's slot since you say you don't want SE). That way if you never need to fend off 'mence (that seems a little overspecialized...) you get a free one-use 70BP fire physical move. It's gimmicky and a waste of a moveslot IMO, but you might find use for it.

Uh, maybe muscle band (lol) or Ice Plate/Nevermeltice could be used to the same effect of beating down the dragons, but without the negatives (life drain and randomness of boost).
 
@X-Codes
Just a note but have you considered Pinsir as a lead too? It has the ability to Stealth Rock too and both its traits basically cancel Intimidate starters. It even packs Stone Edge with its 125 base attack, has 100 base defense and outspeeds your common Gyarados with 85 base speed. It has the unique ability of being able to force a lead Gyarados into a switch or risk being OHKO'd and lay the SR after a free KO.

You can also easily bring it back in as a late game sweeper since it has other excellent options like Close Combat, STAB X-Scissor, Earthquake, Swords Dance and even Quick Attack if your into that kinda thing.

Other quite fast Stealth Rock users out there are Nidoking, Kabutops and Gliscor.
 
Forsety said:
@X-Codes
Just a note but have you considered Pinsir as a lead too? It has the ability to Stealth Rock too and both its traits basically cancel Intimidate starters. It even packs Stone Edge with its 125 base attack, has 100 base defense and outspeeds your common Gyarados with 85 base speed. It has the unique ability of being able to force a lead Gyarados into a switch or risk being OHKO'd and lay the SR after a free KO.

You can also easily bring it back in as a late game sweeper since it has other excellent options like Close Combat, STAB X-Scissor, Earthquake, Swords Dance and even Quick Attack if your into that kinda thing.

Other quite fast Stealth Rock users out there are Nidoking, Kabutops and Gliscor.
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Hyper Cutter stops Intimidate. Unconventional stopping Intimidate was debunked long, long ago.

I wouldn't really qualify them as "Fast," but Claydol, Uxie, and Mesprit can at least take a hit. They have a large Weavile weak though, and Uxie needs HP Ice to scare off Dragons.

Azelf is technically the fastest but it would be retarded to start it with Stealth Rock. Same with Aerodactyl, Dugtrio, and Infernape.

Celebi and Jirachi could do it, as could Gliscor, which does have 95 Base speed.
 
I've been playing around with Substitute Mamoswine as a lead. Lots of things run from it, assuming CB, allowing you to setup Sub and then either Stealth Rock or hit stuff around for a bit.
 
Now thats an option I hadn't considered: Pinsir. I'd use Mold Breaker on him, though, to hit stuff like Gengar, Bronzong, and Weezing hard with EQ. If Mold Breaker doesn't stop Intimidate then I'll just avoid getting Intimidate 'mons switched in on it.

I'll use a CScross EV setup and such.

Thanks for the help.
 
Boa1891 said:
Quoted for truth. I've run into Stallrein (on a hail team) a few times, and thanks to alternating between naturally moving first with SE/EQ and using Avalanche (Neg. priority is FTW!!) I can hit past its subs, taking it out. After that, the rest of a hail team is demolished, often thanks to hax from my ability. Of course, I could always just bring in Ttar as a counter, but this thread is about Mamoswine (<3).
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Wait, what?

Choice Band Avalanche deals 12.47% - 14.40% to 0/0 Walrein. Life Orb Avalanche deals 10.80% - 12.74%. Walrein ought to be able to get the 2 surfs / blizzards needed to kill Mamoswine unless the sub is already damaged or something. (Surf is like 80 to 90% damage, Blizzard is a solid 2-hit KO)

And then against the Stallrein set of EVs, Avalanche deals 7.45% - 8.65%, so even if Walrein did use Surf on you that turn that doubled Avalanche's power, you ain't breaking the sub without a critical.

And after that, walrein still is reasonably safe to subsitute, as Life-Orb Stone Edge is 64.66% - 76.20% on Stallrein's EVs. Meaning the vast majority of the time, it is safe to sub again even with a Life Orb Stone Edge from mamoswine. Or maybe roar?

I'm sorry if this actually happened, it just seems very unlikely from my stand point when T-Punch from Dusknoir doesn't break Stallrein's sub, and then the fact that Stallrein 4x resists ice moves makes the story even less plausable.

The math just doesn't add up. If we assume Walrein has a sub up, Surf will kill you, it just takes too many turns to break the sub with avalanche, a move that walrein 4x resists.
 
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