Announcement Mamma Mia! - LC Suspect

[Coconut]

Mamma Mia, here I go again​

Smell that? It's the smell of the first Little Cup suspect of a new generation. It couldn't really be anything else but Girafarig. A brand new-to-us Pokemon that didn't strike the immediate radar as broken, but absolutely had the stat total and movepool to be problematic. After the wave of autoban and quickbans, the giraffe stood alone as the last true powerhouse of the new additions. Boasting a blazing fast 19 speed and Psychic typing, it immediately hit the tier with shades of Abra. That being said, Abra's paper thin defenses does not light a candle to Girafarig, who has respectable, but not overwhelming defensive prowess. Couple that with powerful attacking stats on both Attack and Special Attack, and comparisons to Ponyta were more apt.

Girafarig is not Abra or Ponyta though, this is a threat unlike many of the others that have embraced the metagame. Girafarig has a movepool unlike many Pokemon, with powerful special attacking options like the new multihit move Twin Beam, and the new Tera Blast to compliment not just a notable Normal-type STAB, but a STAB of whatever type Girafarig can choose to Tera into. Couple that with coverage options which make the Pokemon more complete, but options to boost your already high Special Attack stat. Nasty Plot and Calm Mind are options which make the giraffe from more of a wallbreaker to more of an immediate threat to sweep the game. And this does not include your options on the physical side, with Psychic Fangs and Body Slam providing excellent STAB options, coverage in Crunch and even a speed-boosting option in the new Trailblaze. And if all of that was not enough, depending on the set, chipping it down becomes a challenge with Wish and Rest sets as uncommon options to complete your Girafarig.

While there has been a significant amount of counterplay, both new and old, part of the first suspect of the generation will be determining if that counterplay is significant enough to fend off the suspect in question. Nymble is a rather unassuming Bug-type on the surface who does an excellent job of forcing out Girafarig with First Impression, U-Turn, or Sucker Punch. Diglett is an everpresent threat who outspeeds and can revenge kill with relative ease. Additionally, Girafarig has rather unassuming OHKO potential, leaving many things able to successfully trade blows. Part of the challenge, however, is determining which set to check with the options available on your team. For example, Toedscool does a wonderful job eating Twin Beams from Special Girafarig, but will fold to a physical-oriented set. Proper team reading and scouting of potential moves can alleviate this, but doing this incorrectly could potentially result in a free Calm Mind for your opponent, which is particularly dangerous.

There is also the elephant in the room, of Tera transformations and typing, which add a different, previously unseen dynamic to the game and will affect the outcome of this suspect test. Girafarig has several different popular Tera types, and we won't be getting too much into which ones specifically, but it is important to note that Girafarig has the potential to use Tera both offensively and defensively, giving it an additional resistance to a particular threat or being able to blow past a typical check is not something to be scoffed at. Tera, while not the focus of the suspect and should not be given significant weight, is something that needs to be accounted for throughout the suspect within the scope of how it is used for, against, and by Girafarig.

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 78 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

For this suspect test, we will be using the regular SV LC ladder, so you must create a new account that begins with "GLCLG" to qualify. When you have reached the requirements, click here to post your proof. Girafarig will be legal on the ladder until the suspect is over. The suspect period will end on Sunday, January 29th at 11:59 PM EST.

When posting in this thread, please keep in mind these rules:
1. No one-liners or uninformed posts.
2. No discussion on other potential suspects or the suspect process.
3. Be respectful.

Your post will be deleted and possibly infracted if you fail to follow them.

 

[TheShoddyStrawman]

So for my thoughts on the matter

Thank God its finally on the table as a suspect, I hate how overcentralizing the meta is with Girafarig in it.

Quick bullet point list of why it should go:
-Its best check is itself
-Moveset variety is stupidly high and you can run either of a physical or a special set.
-Tera variety is also stupidly high
-Exceedingly hard to check consistently as a result of the two above factors
-19 base speed on baseline is really hard to check effectively without using a scarf, t wave, or webs. For context, only 3 mons outspeed it, being voltorb, wiglett and diglett.

If you want a more detailed reasoning, I have a video on it, which is here.

I'm hoping to see this banned.

 

[wesh papillon]

I genuinely would be surprised if a single person vote no ban, this mon absolutely does not belong in the tier and its super obvious.

1. • 1. Speed: Giraffe is very fast, at 19 speed it outsoeeds every thing that isn’t a) voltorb or dig b) scarf (mankey/ zorua/ magnemite or c) priority (pawn/ nymble). By itself tho this would be a problem if
     
     
     
   • 2. Movepool High bst generally doesn’t mean much if a lot of it is wasted on a stat you wouldn’t use: this isn’t the case here. Both physical and special have access to strong stabs and solid coverage. Special also has 2 very solid set up moves which combined with speed and no obvious blind spot typing wise means that
     
     
     
   • 3. Giraffe is a menace to switch around. The “checks” like pawn usually just end up getting smacked around by coverage regardless of which set it is. Toedscool gets fucked by over by physical but it doesn’t really love having to switch into multiple twin beams. Other than that no Pokémon can really even kinda switch in on it. Well except for….
     
     
     
   • 4. Giraffe itself is very bulky, and it fat without needing to sacrifice evs from att or speed. It can live “strong” super effective hits like zoruas knock. This means it can basically trade with any Mon it wants, tho in practice this mostly mean it ends up trading with itself , since nothing else can really handle the combination of speed, power and bulk. The bulk also means it can come in on a lot I# of different stuff, if it wants too ofc (since it’s hp is by far the most valuable in the team, regardless of mu)
     
     
     
     
   • 5. Giraffe doesn’t really have any glaring faults that need to fix with teambuilding, sure it loses to deerling 1v1 and doesn’t love tspikes, but so do most Pokémon so you wouldn’t really be excused for not having counter play. What this means is that giraffe basically imposes itself on any team regardless of structure. The way I see it is that ur building and playing 5v5+ giraffe
     
     
     This feels like it shouldve been a council ban, ive met a total of ONE person who tough giraffe was ok and they changed their opinion.
     ​

 

[Oscarx90]

I don’t seem to think girafarig is quite as banworthy as everyone else, pawniard is a good check and so is nymble, but
its ability to overwhelm any ’counter’ is what makes it banworthy to me. It can run protect for nymble, it can terastalize fighting for
pawniard, gastly can’t switch in and it needs to be severely predamaged for diglett to Ko. I would like to point out that it almost always runs Tera fighting, which can be predicted, but having to rely on predictions to beat something is never a good thing.
If it was more one dimensional, it wouldn’t be banworthy in my opinion, but it’s ability to run so many sets is what makes it banworthy to me.

 

[Drifting]

I’m at a cricket game so I can’t write a full post rn, but I just wanted to immediately get rid of the idea that Nymble is a Giraffe counter.

As far as I’m concerned any NP Giraffe worth its salt is running Protect > Thunderbolt, and even if it is a Tbolt giraffe you really can’t take the risk, because maybe it’s just me but sending in your Nymble to revenge kill Giraffe and getting protected sounds like an incredibly easy way to sack all of your momentum/options and just lose the game.

Also, even if it doesn’t have Protect, Giraffe can just Tera into the Fighting/Normal/Fire it’s running and get hit for neutral damage, taking half at MOST:

228+ Atk Life Orb Tinted Lens Nymble First Impression vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Tera Fighting Girafarig: 8-13 (34.7 - 56.5%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO

AKA: If your Nymble isn’t paired with like, LO Dig or Steel Beam Magnemite, ur just fucked.

What Nymble can do is bop Physicalraffe, which is usually Tera Dark, but not only is that shit WAY less popular (anecdotally speaking), it can also just switch into one of the quadrillion things that hard punish Nymble (Larv, Mareanie, Glimmet). This is part of a further opinion of mine that Nymble is a sub-optimal, momentum-sapping fad, but that’s a topic for another day.

I would elaborate more on why Girafarig should be banned but everyone else has already, so lets just get this over and done with.

Good luck to everyone competing in LCWC

 

[Style_Dota]

Something else worth noting is that with normal STAB and primarily being a special attacker, Tera Blast is not a completely useless move on Girafarig compared to most other Pokémon.
I’m not going to repeat what others, especially Wesh (his post is great) have said, but this thing should go.

 

[Kipkluif]

I really struggle to see how Girafarig is in any way broken. It's a prime example of a very good but healthy mon for me. You can carry scarfers, keep your Nymble healthy so it will survive a hit even if Girafarig makes the sacrifice of a moveslot to fit protect (and Girafarig really wants it's moveslots to fit all those good coverage options instead), you can cripple it with Thunder Wave, trap it, there really is enough counterplay to it. While it's true that every team needs a Girafarig, this is not necessarily a reason to ban it, as this is true for many healthy tiers with a clearly defined "best pokemon". Nobody wants Munchlax banned from DPP LC, as an example.
Girafarig has good bulk, but a lack of useful resistances and reliable recovery (Wish+Protect means you're not using Girafarig's great coverage) makes it less of a tank than it seems to be at first glance. This also means setup variants can reliably get worn down and beat by a revenge killer before they manage to sweep.
None of Girafarigs great attributes are overbearing, and I'd urge people to vote Do not ban on this suspect.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

What does it's 85 Base speed mean? And it's 70/65/65 bulk plus Eviolite can be troublesome. it can run Tera Ground + Sap Sipper for a extreme combination. Psychic Fangs breaks screens, Wish provides some healing support, spreads paralysis with Thunder Wave and Body Slam, Twin Beam may be a little weak than Psychic or Psyshock but it breaks Substitutes, Focus Sashes and Sturdy, Hyper Voice bypasses Substitutes, Nasty Plot boosts it Special Attack to make it more of a treat and it's coverage is quite wide with Dazzling Gleam, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Earthquake, Crunch and Low Kick.
Overall, we might Ban on this suspect.

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

You can carry scarfers, keep your Nymble healthy so it will survive a hit even if Girafarig makes the sacrifice of a moveslot to fit protect (and Girafarig really wants it's moveslots to fit all those good coverage options instead), you can cripple it with Thunder Wave, trap it, there really is enough counterplay to it.

And I so heavily disagree with all of the sentiment here. For the record, I'm also insanely pro-Girafarig ban in spite of it hard carrying me through the ladder so far, and I want to bring up points against this. I might even go for reqs for once in my ten years on Showdown.


1.) Girafarig's bulk is high enough that almost every scarfer barring jank like Adamant Scarf Zorua will struggle to consistently OHKO it, so if Girafarig gets in for one hit on them and can then switch out once it's shown it's a Scarf (since a 19 speed mon is still incredibly valuable, even just for chip damage.) Many of these Scarfers also can be scouted by Protect variants, especially mons like Mankey who will often simply pivot out of Girafarig with U-Turn, and locking into CC for a kill will give opportunity to a Ghost to come in. Tera further exacerbates this issue, where Tera Fighting resists Knock Off and nicher types like Ground or Electric can stop anything from Magnemite barring suicidal Steel Beam.

A few popular Scarfers I've seen on ladder (and 76 SpD just happens to be my personal Girafarig set spread:

236 Atk Zorua Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Girafarig: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
196 Atk Mankey Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Girafarig: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 SpA Magnemite Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Girafarig: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
236 SpA Magnemite Steel Beam vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Girafarig: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It also doesn't help that the rare Trailblaze variants of Girafarig just win against a lot of these scarfers, such as doing massive damage to Zorua or OHKOing Mankey with Twin Beam.



2.) Nymble should in no way expect a free kill on Grafarig. Ever. Nymble can't tank a Twin Beam, nor can it consistently tank a Tera Blast. First Impression does a lot, and often forces Tera to survive the First Impression, but Protect is an insanely valuable move on Girafarig for checking your opponent's Scarfed locked move, getting Wish recovery, or simply to bait Tera from Pokemon like Crabrawler who won't survive a Twin Beam, and completely ruins Nymble. Physical Girafarig struggles with the First Impression bug, however, which is something nice.

As for coverage, the fact that Special Girafarig sacrifices nothing by using Tera Blast and Twin Beam barring struggling with Pawniard means it's not that big of an issue. Tera on Girafarig gives you moments

196 SpA Girafarig Twin Beam (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nymble: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
196 SpA Girafarig Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nymble: 16-21 (84.2 - 110.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
196 Atk Girafarig Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Nymble: 13-16 (68.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

228+ Atk Life Orb Tinted Lens Nymble First Impression vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tera Fighting Girafarig: 8-13 (34.7 - 56.5%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
228+ Atk Life Orb Nymble Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tera Fire Girafarig: 6-8 (26 - 34.7%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO


3.) What runs Thunder Wave right now? Perhaps if there were more consistent answers that had a turn to survive, this would be a better solution. Pawniard is already struggling to fit every move it wants on its standard sets between Stealth Rock, Night Slash, or Swords Dance for a fourth slot, let alone Thunder Wave. Tink is a fairly effective answer unless the Girafarig runs Tera Fire (niche, but still gives a resistance to FI, beats Pawn and also beats Tink for FREE as well as OHKOing Toedscool after a NP) Drifloon can run Thunder Wave, but Twin Beam after a boost or Crunch do massive damage to it, and it doesn't outspeed. Impidimp is pretty bad but at least has Prankster and doesn't die to any common move in case you get 10%'d.


4.) Trapping does not work, or at least not to the excellent consistency that would be necessary to truly beat Girafarig. Remember how Protect serves a valuable function on Nasty Plot sets in stopping Nymble's FI and scouting Scarfers? For Special sets, Protecting to check Diglett's intentions can bait a Tera Bug, and Twin Beam chunks Diglett even if it clicked Sub. Trailblaze sets can bonk Diglett, especially if they Substitute.




tldr: wesh literally makes the argument better than I ever could, please ban this thing like we should have when LC was first prepared this generation. there was no reason for this to drop to LC even if it technically isn't fully evolved anymore.

 

[wesh papillon]

ive met a total of ONE person who tough giraffe was ok and they changed their opinion.

I really struggle to see how Girafarig is in any way broken. It's a prime example of a very good but healthy mon for me. You can carry scarfers, keep your Nymble healthy so it will survive a hit even if Girafarig makes the sacrifice of a moveslot to fit protect (and Girafarig really wants it's moveslots to fit all those good coverage options instead), you can cripple it with Thunder Wave, trap it, there really is enough counterplay to it. While it's true that every team needs a Girafarig, this is not necessarily a reason to ban it, as this is true for many healthy tiers with a clearly defined "best pokemon". Nobody wants Munchlax banned from DPP LC, as an example.
Girafarig has good bulk, but a lack of useful resistances and reliable recovery (Wish+Protect means you're not using Girafarig's great coverage) makes it less of a tank than it seems to be at first glance. This also means setup variants can reliably get worn down and beat by a revenge killer before they manage to sweep.
None of Girafarigs great attributes are overbearing, and I'd urge people to vote Do not ban on this suspect.

Ok well thats makes TWO ppl now!!!!!!!!!!!

In all seriousness tho:

"You can carry scarfers, keep your Nymble healthy so it will survive a hit even if Girafarig makes the sacrifice of a moveslot to fit protect"

The scarfs are sorta limited. Mankey, zorua, mag are the main ones and all of them have significant issue. First of all, they obviously cannot switch in on giraffe ever, meaning that u like get them in on a sac? Ig? Thats not super great lol. Also u seem to dismiss protect as being just so u dont lose to nymble but protect is a great move overall which has a lot of utility, like scouting scarfers (it also is good w/ the very common tspikes). If giraffe protects a u turn the giraffe player can very easily pivot around u turn since theres a lot of resists and u can often times find something that is Fine in most positions. Tho ofc u can always just take the big fuckign 43 % damage and jsut fucking slap something lol. Oh also u can tera to lose the u turn weakness making these positions even more giraffe favored.

"and Girafarig really wants it's moveslots to fit all those good coverage options instead"

I mean it can drop protect ofc if the team can pivot around nymble, but even then Psychic/ normal and one of ground or fighting or fire or wtv is really hard to switch into. "oh but what pawn?" nope it dies. "But toadstool" or it can switch in once, but not any more than that. Giraffe can also just beat it if it doesn't mind being knocked. Sure u can go for the mycelium might spore but then u need to drop a move and ur inevitably walled by something. "tink!?" nope. "Stinky" still no. "Tera dark gastly vs scecifically special tera ground" I mean sure but like.... Jesus. Gothita and bronzer and whatever can also beat It kinda but like they are not really good enough to justify common usage and can also still lose to other giraffe sets!


"you can cripple it with Thunder Wave"

Not if its tera ground lol. Also:

What runs Thunder Wave right now?

Giraffe lmao

"Nobody wants Munchlax banned from DPP LC, as an example."

Ok now give it 19 speed, nasty plot, a good movepool with both attacks. And make it so it can 1v1 every mon. Sure it still gets chipped but like the power difference between giraffe and the next best mon is crazy.

Yes, I know, BST isnt the end all be all. But Giraffes stats are actually insane. Its not that it has the best BST, but that its BST is 70points higher then the second best mon and 105points higher than the 5th place mon. It shrinks the competition with its big numbers.

Giraffe not only trades like lax, but it can also force through teams and sweep. (disclaimer: im not a dpp expert, so idk how far the comparisons could go)

"Girafarig has good bulk, but a lack of useful resistances and reliable recovery (Wish+Protect means you're not using Girafarig's great coverage) makes it less of a tank than it seems to be at first glance."

It has no useful resistances (other then psychic for other giraffes lmao), buuuuuuut it does have useful immunities in grass (sap sipper) and ghost. U can drop sap sipper ofc in which case u have a rest with 1 turn of sleep, so u can run 3 moves and a pretty decent recovery.

"This also means setup variants can reliably get worn down and beat by a revenge killer before they manage to sweep."

Yeah a lot of pokemon get worn down lol. Toed gets worn down, pawn gets worn down and so on and so forth. Sure u can chip it with hazards. Tspikes is very good in this meta and giraffe is weak to it, but again this is not at all a giraffe exclusive issue. As for checking it with scarers, again, u need to make sacs or actually insane plays to get them in. A giraffe played with even mild amount of competency will still be very consistently amazing each game despite scarf mons existing.

OH YEAH BTW
​

If u remember who I am and what I said, I was famously the "you can play around speed ties and they arent a big deal if u can build good teams", and I stand by that take.... for SS. For sv its not true at all.

You will use giraffe. Your opponent will use giraffe. Its not like In gen 8 where u can switch around the 17 speed guys, u can really have a reliable giraffe switch... other then giraffe... Theres not really any ways to play around it with a pokemon this cracked, you will be in a giraffe v giraffe position. There will be speed ties and a good chunk of them will matter.

Tldr: I wrote my last post on mobile so it had a million typos (this one prob does as well) But hopefully this makes my position even clearer, thx if u read this the whole way through lmao

 

[Brammi]

I'm going to keep this relatively short as people have done quite a large amount of reasoning regarding Giraf being banworthy and would like to talk about LC holistically with Giraf present. To put it plainly, whatever you believe about the strength of Giraf, it defines the metagame in a way no other Pokemon does. Sure you need to have certain pokemon switch-ins, something to deal with setup threats, some form of speed control, but those aren't breaking in the teambuilding stage. What you do need to do, is have something, probably two, that can switch in and not be 2hko'd by a base giraf. This lets you survive and smack a nasty plot after it boosts on switch, which mind you, you will p much not be OHKO'ing. And that is the crux of why you need two things. Sure there's a couple of pokes that can deal with a giraf on their own, but every single one needs perfect situation and there is not a single poke that can always force out a giraf even once. If you think about strong sweepers, they have counterplay and a defining aspect of competitive Pokemon is breaking past Pokes that would otherwise wall what you are trying to win with.

This specifically is what I find unhealthy about the giraf metagame. Yes Giraf has checks, but there's no counters. Theres no checks it can't get past. Does it run over every game? No. Can it? Definitely. Why doesn't it? Because everyone builds around neutralising a Giraf and not losing stupid amounts of momentum to it so they have to fight back. That is bread and butter overcentralising. This is the giraf meta, and that's not a good thing for the health of the metagame. If it were a little less bulky so scarfers were a legitimate threat to it, or if it couldn't run equally menacing physical and special sets then it would likely have a home. But it is just that smidge too good that it causes everything to revolve around it. I don't really think it's broken in isolation, but it is certainly broken in the ways that it warps everything around it. And that is still banworthy. I encourage a ban.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

A rare Tera Dark Glimmet has 75% chance to OHKO a Eviolite Girafarig with Tera Blast.
It can also bait Girafarig using a Psychic type move on a Tera Dark.

236+ SpA Tera Dark Glimmet Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Girafarig: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Glimmet also has Dazzling Gleam to deal with Tera Fighting Girafarig.

236+ SpA Tera Fairy Glimmet Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tera Fighting Girafarig: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO.

 

[Clas]

A rare Tera Dark Glimmet has 75% chance to OHKO a Eviolite Girafarig with Tera Blast.
It can also bait Girafarig using a Psychic type move on a Tera Dark.

236+ SpA Tera Dark Glimmet Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Girafarig: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Glimmet also has Dazzling Gleam to deal with Tera Fighting Girafarig.

236+ SpA Tera Fairy Glimmet Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tera Fighting Girafarig: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO.

helpful to know for bait sets, but you noticeably have to spend your tera on it, be modest nature, AND this calcs without 76spd giraf. notably, i dont want to run tera dark/fairy on a mon like glimmet just to deal with giraf over playing around it with scarf zorua to force it to make certain plays? and with dgleam not even non-evio dies to it reliably (or really ever). for evio, unless you tera AND be modest vs the 0/0 variant you arent realistically ohkoing. this also realistically relies on glimmet being modest scarf rn, which idt anyone wants to run since its so much better with evio/sash.

calcs with 76spd + other important calcs

236+ SpA Tera Dark Glimmet Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Girafarig: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
236+ SpA Glimmet Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tera Fighting Girafarig: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ SpA Glimmet Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Tera Fighting Girafarig: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ SpA Glimmet Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Fighting Girafarig: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
236+ SpA Tera Fairy Glimmet Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Tera Fighting Girafarig: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

 

[wesh papillon]

A rare Tera Dark Glimmet has 75% chance to OHKO a Eviolite Girafarig with Tera Blast.
It can also bait Girafarig using a Psychic type move on a Tera Dark.

236+ SpA Tera Dark Glimmet Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Girafarig: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Glimmet also has Dazzling Gleam to deal with Tera Fighting Girafarig.

236+ SpA Tera Fairy Glimmet Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tera Fighting Girafarig: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO.

I know this post will be deleted for being a one liner but like what does this mean lmao? r u trying to suggest that ppl should be using tera dark glimmet?

 

[WinterSwablu]

IMO, maybe the best comparison to Girafarig is Misdreavus (I played LC in way back in generations 4/5 before it got banned, and it gives the same vibes). Any set is worthwhile—while offensive nasty plot sets are excellent, you can also do bulkier nasty plot sets, and both are wildly effective. Physical sets are really good too—which Missy couldn't do. Pawniard folds easily with prediction, and as the most common check, it's extremely easy to plan for (and occasionally set up on, if they over-rely on Sucker Punch and/or didn't save their Tera for the 1v1...) The best counter-play is chip it with hazards, and then paralyze it or hit it with Knock Off, so you can take it out easy-ish. Toedscool's Spore is also pretty effective, except that Early Bird can easily be chosen as Girafarig's ability instead (especially with the niche Rest sets), with shockingly little cost—grass moves are rare, except from Toedscool itself, and the special sets don't need an attack boost. As a check, Nymble is okay, except that Protect is an option for Girafarig (and Nymble relies far too heavily on First Impression & Sucker Punch), and a partner Larvesta can just burn it, either with Flame Body or Will-o-Wisp. Axew is a mildly entertaining niche check—since it gets First Impression (and people don't realize that it does) and it doesn't have Nymble's uber-frail stats. Personally, I think it's banworthy—you can check it, except that something will probably have to die first, and it'll happily blow past whatever check(s) you have if played well (including the opponent's Girafarig).

 

[Hacker]

art by ashelyDeluxe
I will be voting ban for this Girafarig suspect.

Girafarig is by far the best mon in this tier for a variety of reasons, some of this reasons include:

a) There are no reliable checks to Girafarig, Girafarig can optimize itself to beat literally anything it wants to beat. You can run protect to no longer lose to nymble and other various tera options to beat other checks while not sacrificing the quality of your Girafarig.

b) A large amount of the games I have played have came down to whoever could win the Girafarig speed tie. In gen 8 you can play to avoid speed ties (not to say they don't happen there but in general they can be very avoidable), but for this gen one of the only real options to beat Girafarig is trying to use/setup with your own Girafarig first.

c) Girafarig is mandatory for every solid team in this metagame. I don't think this by itself is enough to make a pokemon unhealthy for the metagame, but unlike stuff like Mienfoo or Snorlax in their best tiers, Girafarig doesn't really help to keep anything in check. The closest thing it would help keep in check is Gastly which we don't even know yet as we have not played this metagame without Girafarig.

I believe that all of this combined is more than enough to say that this meta will be better without Girafarig.

 

[Clas]

Let's about SpA Rankings here:
View attachment 486147

By the way Glimmet has the Highest SpA in LC surpassing Gastly, Girafarig has the 4th highest SpA in this tier.

Gimmighoul may have the 8th highest SpA but also has a similar bulk to Girafarig: 45/70/70 vs 70/65/65 isn't too much different aside of their typing. Gimmighoul may be the slowest pokemon (same as Bonsly) in LC, but it gets the job done with the Rattled boosts.

Fun facts: Girafarig has the same base Speed has Buizel and Wingull (85 to be exact). If it meets these pokemon, it might have a Speed tie war.

wh-

why did you make this post? what was the point of it? this is common knowledge and this just shows off your lack of knowledge for how base stats work at this level, as 85 is as good as 90 and base stats only mean so much in the grand scheme of things to determine how good a mon is. spa has never been the issue with it, its the mix of good bulk, two strong offensive stats, 19 speed, a phenomenal typing, a reliable two-hit attack, boosting moves, anti-intim or anti-grass abilities, and that its on every team right now. your first post was fine but this just does nothing.

 

[SpyGaming]

I shall make this quick since i don't have too incredibly much time. Girafarig can run anything to beat anything, even the bland sets that don't have protect for Nymble still have pivots to deal with it, it's way too fast to deal with reliably. Don't even get me started on Nasty Plot + Twin Beam, anything that isn't dark types (such as zorua or pawn) or bulky resists gets one shot easily, I'll pull out some damage calcs on neutral pokemon with my own girafarig (no boosts): 196 SpA Girafarig Twin Beam (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nymble: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO, 196 SpA Tera Fighting Girafarig Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 36-48 (171.4 - 228.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO. The 2 most reliable checks to non-protect girafarig (my girafarig) get obliterated. In conclusion, ban

 

[Muksu]

Girafarig is obviously a stupidly strong mon, but I find it fair and manageable. Here are the reasons why:

Every mon can make progress against it. Girafarig's defensive typing gives it a very limited amount of immunities and resistances, meaning that pretty much any mon is capable of significantly damaging it and preventing it from freely switching in. This is further highlighted by the fact that Girafarig doesn't have reliable recovery options. Rest and Wish have their place, but they are easy to play around as long as you apply a basic amount of pressure. It also has fairly limited OHKO potential against many common mons, so it's not hard to get to fire off moves on it.

Speed control is powerful. I've found Girafarig to be much less of a threat once I've found a way to outspeed it. Such ways include but aren't limited to Choice Scarf users, Thunder Wave, Diglett, Sticky Web and even moves like Icy Wind. Girafarig speed ties are annoying and have varying importance, but not having better ways of speed control to rely on is a teambuilding issue.

Girafarig can beat anything, but not everything. While Girafarig can reasonably 1v1 pretty much anything, it tends to get worn down and generally struggles to claim another kill if properly played against. I think this creates fun play patterns where deciding the right time to send the mon do its dirty work and whether to tera it or not is impactful and has a lot of skill expression involved. Additionally, while Girafarig is infamous for negating its would-be counterplay (stuff like Pawniard, Nymble, Thunder Wave), it needs to have proper positioning and the correct toolkit to overcome them in practice, so they are still relevant threats to it.

In conclusion, I think Girafarig is a healthy mon that creates fair play patterns that provide room for skill expression.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

You can carry scarfers, keep your Nymble healthy so it will survive a hit even if Girafarig makes the sacrifice of a moveslot to fit protect (and Girafarig really wants it's moveslots to fit all those good coverage options instead), you can cripple it with Thunder Wave, trap it, there really is enough counterplay to it.

Uhh, no. Scarfers are easy to exploit, and they drain all your momentum when you inevitably have to switch out (also, the scarfers cannot switch in, which means something needs to die first). Thunder Wave works... If it doesn't have tera ground or electric, that is, otherwise lol. Oh, and Giraffe can just as easily pick Early Bird for a 1 turn Rest. RE: Nymble, it hates Stealth Rocks. Observe:

196 Atk Girafarig Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Nymble: 15-18 (78.9 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Girafarig Twin Beam (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nymble: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Girafarig Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nymble: 16-21 (84.2 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

A rare Tera Dark Glimmet has 75% chance to OHKO a Eviolite Girafarig with Tera Blast.
It can also bait Girafarig using a Psychic type move on a Tera Dark.

236+ SpA Tera Dark Glimmet Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Girafarig: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Glimmet also has Dazzling Gleam to deal with Tera Fighting Girafarig.

236+ SpA Tera Fairy Glimmet Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Tera Fighting Girafarig: 20-26 (86.9 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO.

This assumes that everything goes exactly as you need it to; if that Girafarig has another Tera type or you already used Terastallization with something else?

 

[Muksu]

Uhh, no. Scarfers are easy to exploit, and they drain all your momentum when you inevitably have to switch out (also, the scarfers cannot switch in, which means something needs to die first). Thunder Wave works... If it doesn't have tera ground or electric, that is, otherwise lol. Oh, and Giraffe can just as easily pick Early Bird for a 1 turn Rest. RE: Nymble, it hates Stealth Rocks. Observe:

196 Atk Girafarig Psychic Fangs vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Nymble: 15-18 (78.9 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Girafarig Twin Beam (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nymble: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Girafarig Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nymble: 16-21 (84.2 - 110.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Scarfers aren't generally enough to beat Girafarig on their own, but they can definitely help in dealing with it. They can sometimes switch in quite favorably if you get the predict right. They are exploitable at times, but imagine a situation like having scarfed Larvesta click U-turn against Girafarig. Then YOU are the one generating momentum.

As for Nymble, it's a mon with paper-thin defenses, so of course it's not going to switch in. It serves as a revenge killer that is surprisingly hard to switch into.

 

[ninjadog]

I can't believe there are people who consider the Giraffe healthy, perhaps with no Tera it would be manageable but right now it's pretty out of hand, absurd stats, great physical coverage and on special tera + twin beam covers everything + it has CM/NP, it also has by far the most viable tera types of any pokemon making it difficult to reliably check. Physical sets can also run trailblaze to overcome scarfers.

Girafarig can beat anything, but not everything. While Girafarig can reasonably 1v1 pretty much anything, it tends to get worn down and generally struggles to claim another kill if properly played against. I think this creates fun play patterns where deciding the right time to send the mon do its dirty work and whether to tera it or not is impactful and has a lot of skill expression involved. Additionally, while Girafarig is infamous for negating its would-be counterplay (stuff like Pawniard, Nymble, Thunder Wave), it needs to have proper positioning and the correct toolkit to overcome them in practice, so they are still relevant threats to it.

I completely disagree with this, these situations are entirely imbalanced in the favour of the Girafarig user bc they know whether they can beat Pawn/Nymble/Larv or whatever random scarfer but the opponent has no idea whether their supposed check can actually beat giraffe, there is nothing skilful about this because one side holds all the information and for the other it's a complete guessing game. Yes any mon can have unpredictable sets but none of them to the extent of Girafarig or are as threatening.

 

[Brammi]

For the Tera arguments other than what is already an elephant in the room that Tera is not what should be being discussed. Giraf is actually something that I believe is generally hindered by Tera. The fact that many arguments in favour of a Giraf meta include things such as Tera around it and play to scout tera or force Tera means that if Tera were not around, then Giraf would be even crazier. The amount of people, especially during the suspect that have been running Tera Dark on almost everything, rogue Tera Bugs, and Teras that are Neutral to ensure revenge or 2hkos on Giraf should fairly clearly show that in a Tera-less space Giraf would be even stronger as it's typing lets it switch on things that kinda need Tera to beat it. Sure it would lose to Pawn but that's something that uses Tera itself a lot.

Any argument that boils down to X mechanic means you can check some of the sets is inherently flawed, 1. Because Tera is so important to the way the game works, and 2. Because it completely ignores the unhealthy centralisation of the metagame regardless of your stance on the 'brokenness' of Giraf.

I would encourage people who are in favor of keeping Giraf around to discuss thoughts on what makes Giraf positive for the metagame, OR to provide thoughts on what inhibits, if anything, on Giraf being able to solidly dictate how battles work on a micro level.

 

[Novax]

Girafarig can beat anything, but not everything. While Girafarig can reasonably 1v1 pretty much anything, it tends to get worn down and generally struggles to claim another kill if properly played against. I think this creates fun play patterns where deciding the right time to send the mon do its dirty work and whether to tera it or not is impactful and has a lot of skill expression involved. Additionally, while Girafarig is infamous for negating its would-be counterplay (stuff like Pawniard, Nymble, Thunder Wave), it needs to have proper positioning and the correct toolkit to overcome them in practice, so they are still relevant threats to it.

In conclusion, I think Girafarig is a healthy mon that creates fair play patterns that provide room for skill expression.

It is anything but healthy for the metagame . Girafarig generally runs eviolite which is enough to provide it with decent bulk to live certain hits . For ref : the supposedly check , pawniard doesnt even OHKO with sucker punch
236 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Girafarig: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also stuffs like scarfers , tend to get worn down due to obvious lack of recovery . Once you reveal the scarf , Girafarig wont stay in play . As far as nymble is concerned , only 2 3 words are enough - protect / Tera fighting . You want fast mons like diglett ? Well it loses cuz it is frail . Girafarig has superb defensive stats compared to a offensive lc pokemon - 23/14/13 . Wanna know a pokemon with better defense stats ? Mareanie - 23/16/14 . All of these factors , force teams to dedicate a minimum of 2 mons to somewhat check girafarig . Girafarig is a mon which checks itself , which leads to too much dependence to speed ties , which is unhealthy for the metagame .

 

[Muksu]

I can't believe there are people who consider the Giraffe healthy, perhaps with no Tera it would be manageable but right now it's pretty out of hand, absurd stats, great physical coverage and on special tera + twin beam covers everything + it has CM/NP, it also has by far the most viable tera types of any pokemon making it difficult to reliably check. Physical sets can also run trailblaze to overcome scarfers.



I completely disagree with this, these situations are entirely imbalanced in the favour of the Girafarig user bc they know whether they can beat Pawn/Nymble/Larv or whatever random scarfer but the opponent has no idea whether their supposed check can actually beat giraffe, there is nothing skilful about this because one side holds all the information and for the other it's a complete guessing game. Yes any mon can have unpredictable sets but none of them to the extent of Girafarig or are as threatening.

It's not like you are always forced to deal with Girafarig by making big gambles on tera plays or surprise moves. And tera gambles can backfire for the Girafarig player, too. There are many opportunities to deal damage to the mon, and many mons like Toedscool and Mudbray can trade hits with it quite safely and favorably. And when Girafarig has inevitably been properly weakened, there are numerous ways to finish it off with ease.

It is anything but healthy for the metagame . Girafarig generally runs eviolite which is enough to provide it with decent bulk to live certain hits . For ref : the supposedly check , pawniard doesnt even OHKO with sucker punch
236 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Girafarig: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Also stuffs like scarfers , tend to get worn down due to obvious lack of recovery . Once you reveal the scarf , Girafarig wont stay in play . As far as nymble is concerned , only 2 3 words are enough - protect / Tera fighting . You want fast mons like diglett ? Well it loses cuz it is frail . Girafarig has superb defensive stats compared to a offensive lc pokemon - 23/14/13 . Wanna know a pokemon with better defense stats ? Mareanie - 23/16/14 . All of these factors , force teams to dedicate a minimum of 2 mons to somewhat check girafarig . Girafarig is a mon which checks itself , which leads to too much dependence to speed ties , which is unhealthy for the metagame .

I think you are generalizing play patterns a bit much. Pawniard can threaten Girafarig well at times despite falling to tera fight and failing to OHKO it. Scarfers don't get worn down too fast if you use them wisely. Girafarig switching out due to a scarfer makes some other mon get potentially hit hard and even lose momentum to U-turn or Volt Switch. Nymble dislikes Protect, but Protect is uncommon and Nymble still has Sucker Punch to hit Girafarig reasonably hard. Nymble dislikes tera fighting, but tera has opportunity cost and FI still hits reasonably hard through it. Diglett is frail, but it's excellent at revenge killing Girafarig once it has been worn down somewhat.

For me, Girafarig just feels like a strong mon that you can reasonably outplay in practice despite its power and all of the options it can utilize. I guess teams that let it in easily and lack safe ways to stop it and play around it will suffer. Maybe it's restrictive on the teambuilder because of its power and versatility necessitating the use of several mons that can deal with it relatively well, but I don't fully see it.