Pending Make Max Moves and G-Max Moves work the same way if the pokemon is not dynamaxed (in Hackmons/Custom formats)

[caiqueo]

So, there are Max Moves, like Max Strike (that has the effect of reducing the foe's speed), and there are G-Max Moves, like G-Max Foam Burst (that also has the effect of reducing the foe's speed). Max Moves and G-Max Moves are essencially the same thing, and these kinds of moves have been "hacked in" to Hackmons and Custom formats, allowing pokemon to use these moves without being dynamaxed. But there are a couple inconsistencies I have found about this feature:


#1: If a pokemon uses Max Moves and/or G-Max Moves without being dynamaxed, only G-Max Moves activate their effects

As shown in this replay: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8customgame-1418930443-h1rf4e0ns7oxj8xys7f0veick5haws8pw

The replay above is of a Custom Game, with a team of Mewtwos with only Max/G-Max moves. The replay shows:

• All Max Moves not activating their special effects if the pokemon is not dynamaxed (except Max Guard);
• G-Max moves activating their special effects if the pokemon is not dynamaxed (all G-Max moves work like this, I tested all but didn't put all in this match);
• Max Moves activating their special effects if the pokemon is dynamaxed.

You can actually see non-dynamaxed Max Strike not lowering the foe's speed (turn 22), non-dynamaxed G-Max Foam Burst lowering the foe's speed (turn 26) and dynamaxed Max Strike lowering the foe's speed (turn 32).

I know that no one was able to directly hack Max/G-Max moves in Sword/Shield, so we don't know what the "official" expected behavior should be. But since Max/G-Max moves are basically the same thing, it doesn't make sense to me that they behave differently from each other when the pokemon is not dynamaxed.


#2: G-Max Moves do not seem to be included in the Hackmons moves randomization. Max Moves are included.

I cannot prove it, but I've been playing Doubles Hackmons Cup like a maniac lately, and I've never seen a pokemon be generated having G-Max Moves, despite seeing some pokemon be generated having Max Moves. I've actually tested this by starting a Hackmons Cup game with an alt, checking all pokemon's moves, forfeiting and repeating this over and over again, in search for a G-Max Move, and I never found one. It's just as only Max moves are included in the Hackmons randomization script, G-Max moves are not included at all. And since Max Moves are not activating their effects without dynamax, they end up being just useless 10 power moves.

According to the Smogon SS Moves Pokedex, there are 33 G-Max Moves and 19 Max Moves. If Max Moves are appearing in the Hackmons randomization and G-Max Moves are not, despite the fact that there are more G-Max Moves than Max Moves, it certainly implies that G-Max Moves are not being included in the Hackmons randomization.


My final suggestion: Make Max Moves and G-Max Moves behave the same way, regarding both inconsistencies

There are a lot of ways you guys could change thing in order to accomplish that. Some options are:

• Option A: Make Max Moves activate their effects if the pokemon is not dynamaxed, and include G-Max Moves in the Hackmons randomization
• Option B: Make G-Max Moves not activate their effects if the pokemon is not dynamaxed, and exclude Max Moves from the Hackmons randomization

I prefer Option A, despite being fine with either. What matters the most for me is Max Moves and G-Max Moves behaving the same way, consistently.

 

[Marty]

The most likely thing to happen here is Option C: Fix Max Moves, and prevent G-Max Moves from being used freely because they have no index numbers and nobody actually knows if it's possible to put them on a Pokemon's moveset in-game.

 

[DaWoblefet]

And since Max Moves are not activating their effects without dynamax, they end up being just useless 10 power moves.

I had done some testing with hacked Max Moves in the recent past, and I'm pretty sure they actually get interpreted mid-battle as 0 BP. I have yet to finalize my research on this front, but yeah, even more useless if I'm correct.

 

[caiqueo]

prevent G-Max Moves from being used freely because they have no index numbers and nobody actually knows if it's possible to put them on a Pokemon's moveset in-game.

When you say "G-Max Moves", are you including the Max Moves aswell?
If you are not: I see, so you're saying that Max Moves are in the Hackmons randomization because they have index numbers, and G-Max Moves are not because they don't have index numbers? It does look that way in the Bulbapedia's List of Moves pages, since Max Moves are included with the other indexed regular moves, and G-Max moves are in a separate category. And your comment also implies that Max Moves have been able to be hacked in Sw/Sh regular battles and you guys know what happens when they're used when the pokemon is not dynamaxed. So, what happens? Is it really a 10 power move with the special effect activating?

 

[caiqueo]

I had done some testing with hacked Max Moves in the recent past, and I'm pretty sure they actually get interpreted mid-battle as 0 BP. I have yet to finalize my research on this front, but yeah, even more useless if I'm correct.

So if this end up being correct, I assume you guys will change from 10 BP to 0 BP in PS and remove them from Hackmons, right?

Anyway, thanks for researching this. Since you guys are already doing this, I guess there's nothing more I can do but wait.

 

[DaWoblefet]

Confirming that Max Move BP should be treated as 0 BP. Several examples are given here, including versus wild Pokemon and in battles where you are capable of Dynamaxing. The main reason I think it's 0 BP is because the damages seem to be consistently 1 or 2. If you enter the base damage formula with 0 BP, you'll come out with 2 base damage, which can be further reduced by the random damage roll to be 1, depending on RNG.

As far as whether or not Max Moves should be removed from randomized Hackmons formats, I have no opinions. They of course should be legal in regular Hackmons formats (though obviously a horrible idea to use them).

 

[caiqueo]

As far as whether or not Max Moves should be removed from randomized Hackmons formats, I have no opinions. They of course should be legal in regular Hackmons formats (though obviously a horrible idea to use them).

Since G-Max Moves can't be put on a Pokemon's moveset in-game, and as of your research, I think that the only thing that needs to be fixed in Showdown is the Max Moves' BP. No need to remove them if they're working as intended.

Of course that the inconsistency between Max Moves' and G-Max Moves' special effects will continue to exist in the "Custom Game" format, but this is probably not an issue most people will run into. I just ran into this issue because I was developing my own randomizer tool (so I can have control over what is randomized and how the randomization should be) and I was assuming that Max Moves and G-Max Moves would work the same way.