Lucario (Agility)

Fuzznip

Fuzznip

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Hello. I would like to write up an Agility set for Lucario. I have used this set for the past month or so and I believe this set should be on-site (right now it just has a small mention in the Optional Changes which I don't agree with). I tried it out on a team I made with one of my tutees, and it's been very successful. I also used it in the Smogon Tour to good success (some may know about this). Here is how the set will look like:

Status: Uploaded

453.png

Lucario

[SET]
name: Agility
move 1: Agility
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Crunch
move 4: Ice Punch
item: Life Orb
ability: Inner Focus
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Swords Dance Lucario has become one of the most popular sets around, which has caused many counters and checks to arise and prevent him from sweeping. Agility Lucario is designed to take advantage of Sword Dance Lucario's popularity and beat all of his common checks and counters such as Gengar, Rotom-A, Gliscor, Salamence, and Choice Scarf Heatran, Magnezone, Tyranitar, and Jirachi. Lucario is also fully capable of late-game sweeping once you discover and weaken your opponent's team. Close Combat provides Lucario with a powerful STAB move to use, while Crunch and Ice Punch are used for additional coverage to hit the Pokemon that aren't threatened by Close Combat.</p>

<p>Lucario can setup against any opponent he has a good chance to force out, such as Tyranitar trapped in using Pursuit or Blissey (watch out for Thunder Wave or Flamethrower). If you were using Swords Dance Lucario, even if you have the perfect opportunity to set up, counters such as Salamence and Gliscor can switch in on the Swords Dance and OHKO Lucario before he has a chance to attack. This means that you need to predict the opponent's switch-in correctly in order to sweep with Swords Dance Lucario efficiently. With Agility Lucario, on the other hand, this is not a problem because he outpaces the aforementioned threats and OHKOes them first. This is one of the major selling points of Agility Lucario; he is easier to use than Swords Dance Lucario in that he requires less prediction to sweep.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>The Speed EVs give Lucario the ability to outpace virtually everyone after an Agility, as well as giving him enough Speed to outpace Timid Heatran if you can't pull off an Agility. However, because Lucario doesn't need to run max Speed to be effective with Agility, there are alternative Speed EVs you can use. With 188 Speed EVs, Lucario outruns Jolly Breloom, Metagross, and Adamant Gyarados before an Agility. Furthermore, he also outspeeds Timid Choice Scarf Gengar after an Agility. If you want less Speed for more bulk, 126 Speed EVs can instead be used to outpace defensive Celebi and Zapdos, as well as Jolly Tyranitar, before an Agility. Also, after an Agility, those 126 Speed EVs allow you to outpace both Choice Scarf Jirachi and Flygon. The remainder of the EVs could be put into either of Lucario's defenses to give him an easier time setting up and sweeping.</p>

<p>Since Agility Lucario is weaker than his Swords Dancing counterpart, entry hazard support is crucial to this set's success; Stealth Rock and Spikes make it easier for Lucario to grab KOs against the likes of Celebi, Suicune, and Jirachi. Swampert is one of the most reliable Stealth Rock users in the metagame, as his overall bulk and great typing nearly guarantee a Stealth Rock set-up. Skarmory and Forretress, who also has Rapid Spin, are excellent users of Spikes, and both are even able to use Stealth Rock on the same set thanks to their great physical durability. Both Swampert and Skarmory also have the ability to phaze, racking up even more residual damage against the opponent.</p>

<p>Ghost-types are necessary on a team with Lucario, as they prevent Rapid Spin users from removing your entry hazards. Rotom-A is a great option, as it has the bulk and typing to repeatedly switch into most Rapid Spinners, as well as packing an immunity to Lucario's Fighting- and Ground-type weaknesses. As a bonus, Rotom-A attracts Choiced Pursuiters, such as Choice Band Scizor and Choice Scarf Tyranitar, giving Lucario a great opportunity to set up Agility and sweep. Speaking of Rotom-A, defensive versions can be troublesome as they can withstand Lucario's Crunch, dealing 54% - 64%, and cripple him with Will-O-Wisp. Heatran makes a great teammate because of this, absorbing Will-O-Wisp for a Flash Fire boost and retaliating with a powerful Fire Blast. Heatran is also capable of dispatching Skarmory, another Pokemon who threatens Lucario with his high physical bulk.</p>

<p>On top of focusing primarily on entry hazards, utilizing extremely hard-hitting Pokemon to break down the defensive core of the opponent is strongly recommended. Choice Specs Porygon-Z and Choice Band Salamence are prime examples of these, as their ridiculously powerful Tri Attack and Outrage, respectively, obliterate anyone that isn't defensive enough. Other powerful Pokemon to look into include Gyarados, Infernape, and Tyranitar. Additionally, should Lucario be KOed during his sweep, the previously mentioned sweepers are able to take advantage of the opposing weakened team to clean up the remains.</p>


QC notes:

  • It beats the counters/checks of the SD set (Choice Scarf Heatran + Tyranitar + Jirachi, Gengar, Rotom-A, Salamence, Gliscor, etc), therefore, it is not outclassed
  • Works amazingly well with entry hazard support
  • Also works well with hard attacking Pokemon to break the defensive core of the opponent, such as Choice Specs Latias/Choice Band Salamence
  • 188 Speed lets it outpace Timid Choice Scarf Latias by one point after Agility
  • 32 HP grants a Life Orb number and offers a tiny bit of bulk to take a Choiced Draco Meteor/Shadow Ball/Dragon Pulse and set up
  • Remaining EVs put into Defense to set up on Choiced Stone Edge/Pursuit (Should I just use the remaining EVs in only HP or Def?)
  • Previous spread: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 36 Def / 188 Spe
Thanks.
 
I'd suggest running max Spe to outspeed Timid Heatran and Jolly Breloom/Metagross without a boost. The "bulk" doesn't add enough to beat the utility of outspeeding Timid Heatran.
 
Seven Deadly Sins said:
I'd suggest running max Spe to outspeed Timid Heatran and Jolly Breloom/Metagross without a boost. The "bulk" doesn't add enough to beat the utility of outspeeding Timid Heatran.
Click to expand...

188 Speed is enough to outpace max Speed Breloom/Metagross (263 vs 262) already, but I'll go with 252 Speed because I think you're right. It helps with outpacing certain Pokemon if you fail to achieve an Agility. If I end up finding out that I survive something important, though, I will let you know.
 
Thank you for the approvals. I've added in the comments to the set. I would appreciate proofreading, comments, and suggestions about the set as of now. Thanks again.
 
One small nitpick; when talking about forry and skarm you said the latter learns stealth rocks, but doesnt forretress too? i know its not a common move on forry, but it learns it.
 
[SET]
name: Agility
move 1: Agility
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Crunch
move 4: Ice Punch
item: Life Orb
ability: Inner Focus
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Swords Dance Lucario is one of the most popular sets around, which caused more counters and checks to arise to prevent it from sweeping. This is where Agility Lucario comes in by taking advantage of the common Lucario answers, such as Gengar, Rotom-A, Gliscor, Salamence, and Choice Scarf Heatran, Tyranitar, and Jirachi, and defeating nearly every one of them after an Agility boost. Close Combat provides Lucario with a powerful STAB move to fire off, while Crunch and Ice Punch are used for additional coverage to hit the Pokemon that aren't threatened by Close Combat.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Since Agility Lucario is weaker than its Swords Dancing counterpart, entry hazard support is crucial to this set's success; Stealth Rock and Spikes make it easier for Lucario to grab KOs against the likes of Celebi, Suicune, and Jirachi. Swampert is one of the most reliable Stealth Rock users in the metagame, as its overall bulkiness and great typing guarantee a Stealth Rock set-up. Skarmory or Forretress are excellent users of Spikes, both even able to use Stealth Rock on the same set as well, thanks to their great physical durability. Both Swampert and Skarmory also have the ability to phaze, racking up even more residual damage to the opponent.</p>

<p>Instead of focusing primarily on entry hazards, utilizing extremely hard-hitting Pokemon to break down the defensive core of the opponent is strongly recommended. Choice Specs Latias and Choice Band Salamence are primary examples of these, as their ridiculously powerful Draco Meteor and Outrage, respectively, obliterates anyone that isn't defensive enough for the assault. Other powerful Pokemon to look into include Gyarados, Infernape, and Tyranitar.</p>
---

Good job Fuzz! My only suggestion is to mention this set as a late-game sweeper once every single Pokemon is seen. I've seen a couple of people pull this set with success late game, so you might want to mention that in the starting paragraph.
 
Thank you franky for the proofread. However, I omitted your second correction because I was referring to multiple Pokemon, not just one. That's the reason I chose "are" instead of "is".

Side note: I forgot to mention Rotom-A as a Rapid Spin blocker and Choiced Pursuit attracter, so I added that in.
 
Franky is absolutely right. It needs to be "is". The subject here is the utilising, which is singular however you look at it.
 
If it were to be singular, I would've included "an". As in:

"Instead of focusing primarily on entry hazards, utilizing an extremely..."

It's supposed to be plural.
 
Ahh, yes. I was thinking of this just now and I completely agree with the change. Excuse my misunderstanding. I'll fix it right now. Also, I added in the bit of playing Lucario as a late-game sweeper. Thanks a lot guys.
 
I really think an all out Physical Agility Lucario won't work well because it doesn't have enough power to handle Physical Walls like the SD version does. Because of this I think a Mixed Set would work much better

[SET]
name: Agility
move 1: Agility
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Shadow Ball / Crunch
move 4: Hidden Power [Fire] / Hidden Power [Ice]
item: Life Orb
ability: Inner Focus
nature: Naive
evs: 162 Atk / 96 Spe / 252SpA

Some damage calculations...
Close Combat vs Standard Scarf Tran 296 Atk vs 248 Def & 323 HP (120 Base Power): 402 - 474 (124.46% - 146.75%)

Close Combat vs 252HP/252Def Bold Blissey
296 Atk vs 130 Def & 714 HP (120 Base Power): 764 - 900 (107.00% - 126.05%)

Shadow Ball vs 252HP Celebi
329 Atk vs 236 Def & 404 HP (80 Base Power): 208 - 246 (51.49% - 60.89%) (2HKO with SR)

Shadow Ball vs Gengar
329 Atk vs 186 Def & 261 HP (80 Base Power): 264 - 312 (101.15% - 119.54%)

Hidden Power Fire vs Standard Spiker Skarmory
329 Atk vs 176 Def & 334 HP (70 Base Power): 244 - 288 (73.05% - 86.23%)

Hidden Power Fire vs 252HP / 252SpD Careful Skarmory
329 Atk vs 240 Def & 334 HP (70 Base Power): 180 - 212 (53.89% - 63.47%) (2HKO)

Hidden power Fire vs Specially Defensive Forretress
329 Atk vs 240 Def & 354 HP (70 Base Power): 360 - 424 (101.69% - 119.77%)

Hidden Power Fire vs 252HP Jirachi
329 Atk vs 236 Def & 404 HP (70 Base Power): 180 - 214 (44.55% - 52.97%)

Hidden Power Ice vs 252HP Gliscor
329 Atk vs 186 Def & 354 HP (70 Base Power): 464 - 548 (131.07% - 154.80%)

---

This set just seems as if it would be more effective
 
Sorry, but I am not going to turn this into some mixed or special sweeper, even if Lucario has slightly higher Special Attack than its Attack (only 5 points higher...).

Lucario has stronger STAB move on the physical side in Close Combat, which is 30 Base Power points higher than Aura Sphere. That means Lucario is going to hit neutral targets with Close Combat harder than Aura Sphere will if you were to factor in maximum offenses. Example:

Close Combat vs a target with 400 HP/200 Def: 73.50% - 86.50%
Aura Sphere vs same target: 57.00% - 67.00%

Notice the huge difference in damage output. This basically means that physical Lucario hits harder than special Lucario, which is important because it needs as much power as possible.

Mixed Lucario doesn't make much sense to me either. Why would I want to run mixed when physical Lucario accomplishes the same goal? By going mixed, I lose power with Close Combat, so I hit neutral targets weaker than usual. I don't see why I have to run Shadow Ball over Crunch because I still hit Gengar, Rotom-A, and Celebi for excellent damage; all that is needed is a bit of hazard support to secure certain KOs (Shadow Ball doesn't OHKO Celebi by the way, so it really doesn't matter). Hidden Power Ice hits Gliscor and Salamence for sure, but so does Ice Punch, and both are OHKOed by it. Finally, I will admit that Hidden Power Fire can be worth it to hit Skarmory, Jirachi, Scizor, and Forretress, but I think Close Combat does enough damage to threaten them. Because I emphasize the use of Stealth Rock and Spikes, many of these threats can be close to KOed. Some calcs:

252 HP Jirachi: 61.63% - 72.77%
252 HP/114 Def Forretress: 43.22% - 50.85% (Forretress lacks reliable recovery and it certainly will be in killing zone when you send out Lucario)
248 HP Scizor: 72.59% - 85.71%
252 HP/176 Def Skarmory: 44.91% - 52.99%
252 HP Skarmory: 50.60% - 59.58%

Lucario is still capable of dealing with these threats after taking enough prior damage from Stealth Rock and Spikes (or random attacks in general). The only real issue this Lucario has is physically defensive Skarmory, but that's what team support is for and you will obviously try to hurt it enough before setting up Lucario.

I really don't plan on making this a mixed or special sweeper. I've already gotten this approved, anyway.
 
Fuzznip said:
Sorry, but I am not going to turn this into some mixed or special sweeper, even if Lucario has slightly higher Special Attack than its Attack (only 5 points higher...).

Lucario has stronger STAB move on the physical side in Close Combat, which is 30 Base Power points higher than Aura Sphere. That means Lucario is going to hit neutral targets with Close Combat harder than Aura Sphere will if you were to factor in maximum offenses. Example:

Close Combat vs a target with 400 HP/200 Def: 73.50% - 86.50%
Aura Sphere vs same target: 57.00% - 67.00%

Notice the huge difference in damage output. This basically means that physical Lucario hits harder than special Lucario, which is important because it needs as much power as possible.

Mixed Lucario doesn't make much sense to me either. Why would I want to run mixed when physical Lucario accomplishes the same goal? By going mixed, I lose power with Close Combat, so I hit neutral targets weaker than usual. I don't see why I have to run Shadow Ball over Crunch because I still hit Gengar, Rotom-A, and Celebi for excellent damage; all that is needed is a bit of hazard support to secure certain KOs (Shadow Ball doesn't OHKO Celebi by the way, so it really doesn't matter). Hidden Power Ice hits Gliscor and Salamence for sure, but so does Ice Punch, and both are OHKOed by it. Finally, I will admit that Hidden Power Fire can be worth it to hit Skarmory, Jirachi, Scizor, and Forretress, but I think Close Combat does enough damage to threaten them. Because I emphasize the use of Stealth Rock and Spikes, many of these threats can be close to KOed. Some calcs:

252 HP Jirachi: 61.63% - 72.77%
252 HP/114 Def Forretress: 43.22% - 50.85% (Forretress lacks reliable recovery and it certainly will be in killing zone when you send out Lucario)
248 HP Scizor: 72.59% - 85.71%
252 HP/176 Def Skarmory: 44.91% - 52.99%
252 HP Skarmory: 50.60% - 59.58%

Lucario is still capable of dealing with these threats after taking enough prior damage from Stealth Rock and Spikes (or random attacks in general). The only real issue this Lucario has is physically defensive Skarmory, but that's what team support is for and you will obviously try to hurt it enough before setting up Lucario.

I really don't plan on making this a mixed or special sweeper. I've already gotten this approved, anyway.
Click to expand...

Alright you don't have to that was just my thought. After seeing the calcs I can see that being fine. I just found that doing more damage to pokemon such as Celebi with Shadow Ball then Crunch and OHKOing Forretress so it can't kill you with EQ was nice but I can see where your coming from.

Great set
 
Fuzznip, you have a great overview and very insightful team option paragraphs but seem to be missing the real meat of the set. You should add how you lure in Salamence, Gliscor, Rotom-A, Gengar, etc. and can defeat them all. You only briefly skim on this. And you should probably mention that you cannot always OHKO them too (damage calcs or just a paragraph detailing the calcs would be perfect). From there you can mention how this Lucario can act as a lure to certain threats so other Pokemon, such as maybe Tyranitar or Gyarados, can sweep later on. In other terms, you mention how you can kill many of Lucario's counters, but give little detail as to why that would be beneficial.
 
entry hazard support is crucial to this set's success
Click to expand...
Instead of focusing primarily on entry hazards, utilizing extremely hard-hitting Pokemon to break down the defensive core of the opponent is strongly recommended.
Click to expand...

Is anyone else confused by this? You list entry hazards as the most important form of support, then say that it's strongly recommended that you primarily use hard-hitting Pokemon.

Maybe I'm crazy, but I would maybe re-word it as:
Or, instead of focusing primarily on entry hazards, extremely hard-hitting Pokemon can be utilized to break down the defensive core of the opponent.
Click to expand...

Or if thats not what you were going for:
On top of focusing primarily on entry hazards, utilizing extremely hard-hitting Pokemon to break down the defensive core of the opponent is strongly recommended.
Click to expand...
 
[SET]
name: Agility
move 1: Agility
move 2: Close Combat
move 3: Crunch
move 4: Ice Punch
item: Life Orb
ability: Inner Focus
nature: Adamant
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Swords Dance Lucario is one of the most popular sets around, which caused more counters and checks to arise to prevent him from sweeping. This is where Agility Lucario comes in by taking advantage of the common Lucario answers, such as Gengar, Rotom-A, Gliscor, Salamence, and Choice Scarf Heatran, Magnezone, Tyranitar, and Jirachi, and defeating every one of them after an Agility boost. Lucario is also fully capable of late-game sweeping once you discover your opponent's team. Close Combat provides Lucario with a powerful STAB move to fire off ( seems unescessary), while Crunch and Ice Punch are used for additional coverage to hit the Pokemon that aren't threatened by Close Combat.</p>

<p>An important point about this Lucario is that he can set up against a threatened opponent, such as Blissey or Tyranitar trapped in using Pursuit, and defeat the aforementioned Pokemon who Lucario otherwise struggles against. Even if he does happen to have the perfect opportunity to set up, counters such as Salamence and Gliscor can switch in on the Swords Dance and OHKO Lucario before he has a chance to attack. This means that Lucario needs to predict the opponent's switch-in correctly in order to sweep efficiently. With that said, Agility Lucario is easier to use than Swords Dance Lucario, as he requires less support and prediction to sweep.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

<p>Since Agility Lucario is weaker than his Swords Dancing counterpart, entry hazard support is crucial to this set's success; Stealth Rock and Spikes make it easier for Lucario to grab KOs against the likes of Celebi, Suicune, and Jirachi. Swampert is one of the most reliable Stealth Rock users in the metagame, as his overall bulk and great typing guarantee a Stealth Rock set-up. Skarmory or Forretress, who also has Rapid Spin, are excellent users of Spikes, both even able to use Stealth Rock on the same set as well, thanks to their great physical durability. Both Swampert and Skarmory also have the ability to phaze, racking up even more residual damage to the opponent.</p>

<p>Ghost-types are necessary on a team with Lucario, as they prevent Rapid Spin users from removing your entry hazards. Rotom-A is a great option, as it has the bulk and typing to repeatedly switch into most Rapid Spinners, as well as packing an immunity to Lucario's Fighting- and Ground-type weaknesses. As a bonus, Rotom-A attracts Choiced Pursuiters, such as Choice Band Scizor and Choice Scarf Tyranitar, giving Lucario a great opportunity to set up Agility and sweep.</p>

<p>On top of focusing primarily on entry hazards, utilizing extremely hard-hitting Pokemon to break down the defensive core of the opponent is strongly recommended. Choice Specs Latias and Choice Band Salamence are prime examples of these, as their ridiculously powerful Draco Meteor and Outrage, respectively, obliterates anyone that isn't defensive enough for the assault. Other powerful Pokemon to look into include Gyarados, Infernape, and Tyranitar. Additionally, should Lucario become KOed during his sweep, the previously mentioned sweepers are able to take advantage of the opposing weakened team to clean up the remains.</p>


Red means remove

only thing i could find, also you have to remove Latias refrences since shes Uber
 
A very good set and analysis overall.

While I'm absolutely fine with your purely physical set, I also think a mixed set could work well.
You said you don't want to lose any physical power for CC, but it's not even necessary. Say you keep your EV spread and simply use a Naughty nature. Crunch and CC can be kept as you still have max attack.
The main benefit would be HP Ice in the last slot. Ice Punch could fail to ohko physically defensive Gliscor and Bulky Mence can also become a problem (Intimidate). Here are some calcs with HP Ice:
266 SpAtk HP Ice vs. 252HP, 0SpDef Gliscor: 100%
266 SpAtk HP Ice vs. 252HP, 0SpDef Salamence: 100%
266 SpAtk HP Ice vs. 236HP, 116SpDef Salamence: 80-94.4% (100% ohko after Rocks)
266 SpAtk HP Ice vs. 0HP, 0SpDef Flygon: 100%
266 SpAtk HP Ice vs. 252HP, 0SpDef Flygon: min 97.8% (100% ohko after Rocks and 87.5% without)
266 SpAtk HP Ice vs. 0HP, 0SpDef Dragonite: 100%
266 SpAtk HP Ice vs. 248HP, 0SpDef Dragonite: 76.8-91.4% (100% ohko after Rocks)
Also you don't have to fear a power loss against Latias as Crunch will hit it harder than Ice Punch anyway.
So I really think HP Ice is at least worth a mention, in fact there is not much a 350Atk Ice Punch can do better than a 266SpAtk HP Ice.


All in all I think your set is really good and should enter the analysis. Nonetheless you could maybe slash in HP Ice in the 4th slot (in conjunction with a Naughty nature of course).
 
This Agility set is not meant to be a wall breaker like the Swords Dance Lucario set. It is primarily used for causing problems vs. offensive teams, meaning max Speed is far more important than trying to run some mixed set. With max Speed, you can beat non-scarf Heatran before an Agility, which is important enough to keep this set the way it is. If you would like to write some sort of a mix set, feel free to submit it to QC and we will review it.
 
I have always used a special attacker for my agility lucario, since it goes off lucario's higher attack stat and most switch ins are physical tanks. I started using the set because I think it works better than sword dance with latias. Otherwise the SD set needs to use bullet punch to beat scarftar.

70 hp
188 speed
252 spa
modest
life orb
aura sphere
dark pulse/shadow ball
hp: ice
agility

It seems to work, usually there is a big pause when they see lucario use agility as they bring in gliscor/salamence/skarmory. Blissey will never switch into lucario until they see aura sphere, and it can still 2hko her. Standard skarmory takes 55.99% - 66.47% from a life orb aura sphere. You still want to avoid gyarados and swampert unless they are sufficiently weakened. Dark pulse only does 31.67% - 37.50% to bulky gyara. I get lots of people trying to play around and build up life orb damage, like they have a jirachi at 30% and expect an aura sphere. But dark pulse will ko a 30% jirachi so I queue up dark pulse and hammer latias/rotom.
 
Like I said, if you want to see if you can get a special or mix Agility set up, do a whole new skeleton set to post in the Quality Control subforum. This physical Agility set has already been approved and will not be changed, so stop posting about changing it to mix/special. Thanks.
 
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